And the Debate goes on ...

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tomana

<----- Likes the Cock
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Hi all,

Regarding computer hardware, graphics cards in particular, here's what I have
observed on the internet in forums, customer feedback, etc :

- folks tend to be loyal to a name brand come hell or high water
and without competition it will be both for the gamer when it comes
to buying a graphics card at an affordable price.
- because of that loyalty, the data in reviews for a given product
can wind up being mis-leading (whether through allegence, or
manipulative intent)
- people are more than willing to hurt others for the sake of gaining 2-3 fps
or a bigger reading audience
- the words ME, MY and I are often the most used words in computer forums
and customer reviews
- they say ignorance is bliss, and it is, for a short while
- with the advent of the internet (special thanks goes to Al Gore)
more data is available to all than ever before in human history yet
the same Q's keep getting asked ... "which card is faster?" and "I mean
what's the real world fps performance?" Heck, why do you ask? You
wont listen to the honest answer even if I share it with you.
- there's alot of hype used in the computer hardware trade, isn't there?
- Why does there have to be so many different explanations of what SLI & CrossFire
is, how it works, how it really performs and why not tell folks whether or not they
really need it?
- NEVER ask a manufacturer's rep to advise you whether or not you need SLI / Crossfire
- if you've read this far, and you're biting at the bit and think you're a smart one
then try this one on for size ... describe what "sweet" tastes like

That last one just goes to prove that some things go beyond words and simply can't be
described, rather, they have to be experienced before they can be understood. I suppose
it might be the same when it comes to answering the Q, "which is really better, ATI or
nVidia?"

For anyone who is interested, most website reviews of the ATI HD4870 card clearly
show that the 4870 has equal or better fps in most all cases than the GTX260 and
that's not too shabby considering the price of the HD4870 these days (I bought one
for $100 on craigslist last week). The real Q is not, "which is better, ATI or nVidia?" but
which card is better (even among the same MFG) in the performance vs cost arena.

For the record, I am neither an ATi nor nVidia man, I like products from both camps

a well done, thorough, technically based HD4870 review is here : http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...radeon-hd4870-512mb-graphics-card-review.html
 
so you typed all that just so you can say 4870 is the better card? ive been here 4 years and these kind of debates have always been here. just like the intel vs amd debates. the microsoft vs apple debates. the pc vs the console debates. its just part of dealing with a forum sight that your interested in. im quite sure these same debates go on at anandtech and tomshardware also.
 
You've been here 4.3 years to be exact. Since I plug the 4870 at the end of the write-up it appears that way, but the write-up is much more than that
 
could of just said i think the 4870 is the best card out there and posted the link at the end for "proof" of your current stance. could of saved you a bit of time or maybe you were just bored or typing from the throne room on your laptop. in the end its still your opinion. just sayin.

ps im sure others will chime in on your stated opinion and will either agree or disagree but thats what this forum is all about.
 
"could of just said i think the 4870 is the best card out there and posted the link at the end for "proof" of your current stance."

yes, I could have, but that was not the main intended purpose
 
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tomana said:
For anyone who is interested, most website reviews of the ATI HD4870 card clearly
show that the 4870 has equal or better fps in most all cases than the GTX260
Click to expand...

Umm where is the 260 in that review? Cause there is not only one, but two here.
For me its not just which card is better, but which warranty is better, who has supported the gaming community better.
 
"For me its not just which card is better, but which warranty is better, who has supported the gaming community better."

for others it's about getting the fastest card they can afford in their price range which tops out at about $100 - $120 for many folks

I read one of those reviews. GTX260 Black Edition ... ouuuuuu looks nice. As said
earlier on, I like both ATI & nVidia products and have owned both from time to time.
Matter of fact, I like the look of that GTX260 BE much better than my Sapphire HD4870
Here's an exerpt from one of those GTX reviews ...

"The XFX GeForce GTX 260 Black Edition did give us the best image quality, or at least
tied for the best image quality, in every game we tested. However, the actual improvement
in gameplay experiences were mediocre at best in each case. "

"GTX 260 Black Edition did give us the best image quality, or at least tied for the best image quality"

Don't they know? Must have been too close to call I suppose.

So, back to square one.

one thing I was wondering about, something that had potential to shift the balance,
might be physx vs havok. Havok (ATI) has quite a commitment from some heavy hitters
in the gaming industry but then, so does PhysX (NVidia). Maybe one day both companies
will play nice in the same sandbox? Sure would benefit all involved I would think.
 
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It all boils down to drivers for the current generation, and what games you intend to play.


Sweet tastes like sugar.

So, describe the color blue to some one who has been blind from birth.
 
tomana said:
Hi all,

<snip>

For anyone who is interested, most website reviews of the ATI HD4870 card clearly
show that the 4870 has equal or better fps in most all cases than the GTX260 and
that's not too shabby considering the price of the HD4870 these days (I bought one
for $100 on craigslist last week). The real Q is not, "which is better, ATI or nVidia?" but
which card is better (even among the same MFG) in the performance vs cost arena.

For the record, I am neither an ATi nor nVidia man, I like products from both camps

a well done, thorough, technically based HD4870 review is here : http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...radeon-hd4870-512mb-graphics-card-review.html
Click to expand...

So, you're not an ATI fan, but in your words, the HD 4870 has equal or better fps in most all cases than the GTX 260 and the review you point out as "superior" to all the others (because it's not biased as you say some are), which is over a year old btw and doesn't even have a GTX 260 in the tests ?!

Am I missing something ?

And no, the HD 4870 isn't better than the GTX 260. Neither one of the models (512 MB and 1 GB) is, when compared to their respective competition (GTX 250 and GTX 260 216). They are basically the same performance wise. As for price, you can find great deals for GTX 260's too, but you obviously weren't looking for them...
 
Patronization is not a good way to start a thread, you know.

The 4870 1GB and GTX 260 216 are tied for performance, trading blows depending on the game. The 4850 and GTS 250 (aka the 9800GTX+) are also tied. The 4890 is sometimes faster than a 285, sometimes slower than a GTX 275, but mostly somewhere in between.

ATi cards are almost always cheaper than the nVidia card they're competing with. On the other hand, the ATi vendors other than XFX are horrifyingly bad in support, warranty and RMAs. XFX support is excellent, but, not surprisingly, XFX ATi cards are more expensive. I'll leave the obvious conclusion to you.
 
I kinda like an overclocked HD 4890 for 1920x1200 gaming. You can poke through here and see why.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/07/06/msi-n260gtx-lightning-review/8

My Toxic is doing 1000|1100 43C idle 60-65C load, and it's whisper quiet.

You can beat it with an X2 fairly easily and that's more cash and possible multi-GPU problems. Cheapest X2 I could find-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102768

Crysis all VH is the only thing that slows it down to unacceptable mins. I run a mix of VH and high when I play that game and there's no issues. Alternatively you could just run all VH and drop res.
 
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You're an idiot. How do you expect someone to describe what sweet tastes like when sweet is a description/taste itself.
 
I use Nvidia for a couple reasons.

1. I have an Sli board. Not interested in upgrading to an X58 because its too expensive at the moment (I only spent a 150$ between mother board and proc last year.)

2. Theres more compatibility for Sli than Crossfire. This is mentioned in Kyles Ghostbusters review.

3. I happen to play games that get better scores with Nvidia than ATI. Little things like the shadowing complaints Kyle had about ATI when he benched L4D kinda bug me as well.

4. Better deals, I have no brand loyalty what-so-ever. Ati 9600 pro and athlon XP 2000+ OCd to 2.5GHZ and was my favorite setup of all time, but my last setup 2xPNY9600 768MB I got for 80$ total after MIR and my current setup of 2xGTS250 cost me 130$ total after rebates. I just havent gotten any comparably awesome ATI deals. The 4870's are still around 130$. If I see an awesome enough deal I might switch.

So for myself your argument is completely invalid. Nice speechifying though.
 
You have a lot of 'fluff' before you actually say 'I think the 4870 is a good card for the money and here's a link to a review'. Why is that?
 
The longer you read and mess around with video cards the more you realize that its not apples to apples. Its apples to oranges and some people enjoy oranges better than apples.

The big issue is nobody gives a shit that you like oranges better than apples, nor do they want to hear about it on a forum :)
 
Let me get this straight. The 4870 is the better card because of a deal you got off craigslist? Seriously? Wow, utter fail OP. Utter fail....

Furthermore you've spent 4 of your total of 11 posts on this shit?
 
I propose the OP test F@H between cards for another, "which is best?" ;)
 
tomana said:
Hi all,

Regarding computer hardware, graphics cards in particular, here's what I have
observed on the internet in forums, customer feedback, etc :

That last one just goes to prove that some things go beyond words and simply can't be
described, rather, they have to be experienced before they can be understood. I suppose
it might be the same when it comes to answering the Q, "which is really better, ATI or
nVidia?"

For anyone who is interested, most website reviews of the ATI HD4870 card clearly
show that the 4870 has equal or better fps in most all cases than the GTX260 and
that's not too shabby considering the price of the HD4870 these days (I bought one
for $100 on craigslist last week). The real Q is not, "which is better, ATI or nVidia?" but
which card is better (even among the same MFG) in the performance vs cost arena.

For the record, I am neither an ATi nor nVidia man, I like products from both camps

a well done, thorough, technically based HD4870 review is here : http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...radeon-hd4870-512mb-graphics-card-review.html
Click to expand...

so whats the point of this soliloquy? the 4890 1ghz card is probably the best single gpu card on the market at any pricepoint. ati is well regarded by everyone in the market for their r7xx series. i own a gtx 285 and would still prefer the ati solution. not to mention how forward looking ati's tech has been nearly every generation since r300 (barring 6 series). see nv40 vs r480 benches of modern games for example. but who is arguing this?
 
akotlar said:
so whats the point of this soliloquy? the 4890 1ghz card is probably the best single gpu card on the market at any pricepoint. ati is well regarded by everyone in the market for their r7xx series. i own a gtx 285 and would still prefer the ati solution. not to mention how forward looking ati's tech has been nearly every generation since r300 (barring 6 series). see nv40 vs r480 benches of modern games for example. but who is arguing this?
Click to expand...

WEll yeah.. a 9xx some Million Transistor GPU giving a 1.4 Billion Transistor GPU a run for it's money doesn't happen every day. As for your other statements they are also correct regarding the fact that ATi is quite forward looking. Perfect example is playing recent DX9 games on a 7900GTX and 1900XTX (both equal in their heyday) will results in 2-3x more performance for the x1900XTX. DirectX 11 games will also offer a much better experience for DX10.1 users then DX10 users.

But at the end of the day.. who keeps their graphic cards for that long? I sure don't.
 
- folks tend to be loyal to a name brand come hell or high water
and without competition it will be both for the gamer when it comes
to buying a graphics card at an affordable price.
- because of that loyalty, the data in reviews for a given product
can wind up being mis-leading (whether through allegence, or
manipulative intent)
- people are more than willing to hurt others for the sake of gaining 2-3 fps
or a bigger reading audience
- the words ME, MY and I are often the most used words in computer forums
and customer reviews
- they say ignorance is bliss, and it is, for a short while
- with the advent of the internet (special thanks goes to Al Gore)
more data is available to all than ever before in human history yet
the same Q's keep getting asked ... "which card is faster?" and "I mean
what's the real world fps performance?" Heck, why do you ask? You
wont listen to the honest answer even if I share it with you.
- there's alot of hype used in the computer hardware trade, isn't there?
- Why does there have to be so many different explanations of what SLI & CrossFire
is, how it works, how it really performs and why not tell folks whether or not they
really need it?
- NEVER ask a manufacturer's rep to advise you whether or not you need SLI / Crossfire
- if you've read this far, and you're biting at the bit and think you're a smart one
then try this one on for size ... describe what "sweet" tastes like
Click to expand...

lolwut.jpg


GJ OP on failing "Thread creation 101".
 
Kowan said:
I propose the OP test F@H between cards for another, "which is best?" ;)
Click to expand...

Another Ford vs Chevy thread........however my "reason" for using nvidia at the moment is their drivers work better, for me :D, to do folding.
 
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