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And now nVidia's response

heatlesssun said:
nVidia is where it is today because they are relentless. They are facing their biggest challenge in years. I just can't wait to see how they respond. For sure they aren't going to do nothing, not counting the 9800 GTX+
Click to expand...

God I'm tired of NV fanboys. Jesus people, it's a company, not a religion! Get a grip.

NV got caught flat-footed and is going to take a beating for awhile. Deal with it. These NV fanboys have been bleating like sheep for weeks now, and it's really getting old. "Well, maybe the 4870 won't be that good! We'll see when the reviews are out!" "Oh, the reviews are out. Meh. I'm sure NV has some huge ace up it's sleeve it will release now to wtfpwn ATI! This was just a fake-out!". Three months from now they'll be saying "zomg, rumors of the next card have been released, and it'll wtf pwn ATI by 100%!".

If nothing else, NV sucking people into their mobos and buy-back programs has certainly helped to bring in a loyal following of morons. Take a few steps back, people, and get a clue.

~S
 
Going with ATI this round. Theres 3 main reasons for this:
Great enthusiast price performance product
Accelero S1rev2 fits
I want to support ATI this round to help keep the competition going
 
Heh, I'll be happy with my GTX 260. Hell, none of us really even need this kind of damn power anyways, except for the few of us who do 3D work etc.

Im sure the 260 is going to do me fine in BF2 and CSS, with the occasional driving sim. The whole battle of the gods thing between ATI and NV, who gives a damn guys. Get the card you want, and use it. Be happy we even HAVE this kind of technology.
 
^ @ SDMorris



You're entirely right. While it is interesting to watch the competition between Nvidia and ATI, I don't prefer one over the other.


When I want to buy a new card, I look at both brands to see which product will offer me the best quality/performance of its generation in a certain price range. I've owned both Nvidia and ATI cards and I never had any problems with them at all.


I'm currently looking for a new videocard as well, and I'm really looking forward to Hardocp's review, as their opinion and results will be the deciding factor for me regarding which card to buy.
 
semisonic9 said:
God I'm tired of NV fanboys. Jesus people, it's a company, not a religion! Get a grip.

NV got caught flat-footed and is going to take a beating for awhile. Deal with it. These NV fanboys have been bleating like sheep for weeks now, and it's really getting old. "Well, maybe the 4870 won't be that good! We'll see when the reviews are out!" "Oh, the reviews are out. Meh. I'm sure NV has some huge ace up it's sleeve it will release now to wtfpwn ATI! This was just a fake-out!". Three months from now they'll be saying "zomg, rumors of the next card have been released, and it'll wtf pwn ATI by 100%!".

If nothing else, NV sucking people into their mobos and buy-back programs has certainly helped to bring in a loyal following of morons. Take a few steps back, people, and get a clue.

~S
Click to expand...

You just described a fanboy, but put the label on just the NVIDIA ones ? :rolleyes:

Fanboys are fanboys and the AMD/ATI, Intel ones are no less ridiculous. And by labeling just one group, you made yourself one in the process. Good job!
 
Um, no. I build my own systems. The only thing I'm a fan of is getting the most bang for my buck.

NV lost this round. Deal with it.

~S
 
heatlesssun said:
For the first time in a long time it looks like AMD/ATI has a very compelling product in the 4800 that has clear superiority in performance vs price. What will be interesting is what nVidia is going to do about it. The INQ has been pointing out all of nVidia's problems of late however AMD has a much bigger one, its not making a profit. The 4800 as great as it is isn't going to add much to the bottom line, they simply don't have the margin. If this really does become a price war nVidia is in a much better position to fight it.

The GT200 ain't weak. If they shirk it down to 55nm and tweak it, which rumors indicate they've already done, raise the clocks and cut the price that will really put the screws on AMD. The 4800 is strong not that strong. GT200 running at the same clocks and at the same price puts AMD right back where they started.

nVidia is where it is today because they are relentless. They are facing their biggest challenge in years. I just can't wait to see how they respond. For sure they aren't going to do nothing, not counting the 9800 GTX+
Click to expand...

AMD not making a profit has nothing to do with the 4800 line.
 
semisonic9 said:
God I'm tired of NV fanboys. Jesus people, it's a company, not a religion! Get a grip.

NV got caught flat-footed and is going to take a beating for awhile. Deal with it. These NV fanboys have been bleating like sheep for weeks now, and it's really getting old. "Well, maybe the 4870 won't be that good! We'll see when the reviews are out!" "Oh, the reviews are out. Meh. I'm sure NV has some huge ace up it's sleeve it will release now to wtfpwn ATI! This was just a fake-out!". Three months from now they'll be saying "zomg, rumors of the next card have been released, and it'll wtf pwn ATI by 100%!".

If nothing else, NV sucking people into their mobos and buy-back programs has certainly helped to bring in a loyal following of morons. Take a few steps back, people, and get a clue.

~S
Click to expand...
right.



Silus said:
You just described a fanboy, but put the label on just the NVIDIA ones ? :rolleyes:

Fanboys are fanboys and the AMD/ATI, Intel ones are no less ridiculous. And by labeling just one group, you made yourself one in the process. Good job!
Click to expand...
wrong.
 
Silus was the guy that desperately believed RV770 had only 480 SPs up until a few days after people actually started getting 4850s (when the rest of us had long before already seen the die shots, AMD slides, and performance #'s and accepted them). :rolleyes: He's quite the fanboy himself. Ah, irony...
 
gs29 said:
Silus was the guy that desperately believed RV770 had only 480 SPs up until a few days after people actually started getting 4850s (when the rest of us had long before already seen the die shots, AMD slides, and performance #'s and accepted them). :rolleyes: He's quite the fanboy himself. Ah, irony...
Click to expand...

I didn't desperately believe in anything, but there was no hard evidence of the 800 SPs, up until the first previews came along. That said, I don't really care about what you think of me. It comes with the territory that fanboys view me as one, so it's no surprise you do the same.
 
semisonic9 said:
Um, no. I build my own systems. The only thing I'm a fan of is getting the most bang for my buck.

NV lost this round. Deal with it.

~S
Click to expand...

And I agree with that, but I definitely don't agree with what you said before. You speak of fanboys, as if they are exclusive to NVIDIA and that's not true. Fanboys are fanboys, are they NVIDIA's, ATI's, Intel's whatever. They will believe in any rumor, even if unconfirmed or with extremely sketchy "evidence", as long as it matches their desire for a certain product to succeed.
 
Zinn said:
you are wrong in labeling semisonic9 as a fanboy.
Click to expand...

After what he said, basically putting all the eggs in the same bag, I'm not wrong at all.

He even described what a NVIDIA fanboy would say, when that's exactly what an ATI fanboy said back in RV670 days. A fanboy is a fanboy and none is better than the other.
 
Silus said:
After what he said, basically putting all the eggs in the same bag, I'm not wrong at all.

He even described what a NVIDIA fanboy would say, when that's exactly what an ATI fanboy said back in RV670 days. A fanboy is a fanboy and none is better than the other.
Click to expand...

no. again, what he said was true and you are the one who is wrong.

this is coming from the guy who's owned a ti4600, 6600, 6800gt, 4 7800 GTXs, 2 7600s, and an 8800 GTS.
 
"Err... the 2900XT sucked. If they shrunk it to 55nm and raise clocks they will WIN!"


Same implication, different team.
 
Zinn said:
no shit, it's important. this is a life or death kind of thing.
Click to expand...
motivator4698848pb1.jpg
 
Silus said:
Fanboys are fanboys, are they NVIDIA's, ATI's, Intel's whatever. They will believe in any rumor, even if unconfirmed or with extremely sketchy "evidence", as long as it matches their desire for a certain product to succeed.
Click to expand...
You speak the truth here, that's why some people would firmly believe a rumour that said card 2 from company N would perform at least X% faster than a specific card. They would also believe the rumour that said the performance of card 4 from company A would only be between card 98 and card 88 from company N. However they won't believe the rumour that said that card 4 will have Y number of shaders.
SDMorris said:
Heh, I'll be happy with my GTX 260. Hell, none of us really even need this kind of damn power anyways, except for the few of us who do 3D work etc.

Im sure the 260 is going to do me fine in BF2 and CSS, with the occasional driving sim. The whole battle of the gods thing between ATI and NV, who gives a damn guys. Get the card you want, and use it. Be happy we even HAVE this kind of technology.
Click to expand...
You will be happy with your GTX260, no doubt about it but if you wait one week longer, you will be happier with a faster card that will cost $100 cheaper.
 
alg7_munif said:
You speaks the truth here, that's why some people would firmly believe a rumour that said card 2 from company N would perform at least X% faster than a specific card. They would also believe the rumour that said the performance of card 4 from company A would only be between card 98 and card 88 from company N. However they won't believe the rumour that said that card 4 will have Y number of shaders.
Click to expand...

I'll actually reply to this, since you are obviously telling that to me for the 3rd or 4th time now ? :rolleyes:

Do try to prove what you just said, with anything I said in the past, without me including in my remarks "based on rumored specs or rumored performance numbers, card X is % faster than card Y".

You do understand the difference between rumor and fact right ? And that's what speculation threads are all about: rumors. The twice as fast as GX2 rumors was obviously proven false, when reviews started to show up. It was a rumor and was discussed as a rumor, with the proper "ifs" in mind and only a fanboy would take them as fact.

As for the 800 SPs rumor, there was NO proof, up until previews came along, but obviously it was speculated to be true/false. Only your fanboy dreams would blindly trust the sketchy slides with compression artifacts all over the 800 number...Not to mention, that 75% of the rumors still maintained the 480 SPs and 800+ million transistors for RV770.

It really gets tiresome to see your fanboy attacks...Look, I've read all your posts in the AMD sub-forum. I've read all your posts in the ATI sub-forum. Fine, you like AMD, but damn...lay off the pipe, because it's getting too ridiculous now. With the release of new cards, these forums are completely unreadable, with all the flamebait and faboyism. Not to mention the threads of "buyers remorse". I loved those ones...:rolleyes:
 
Hypernova said:
motivator4698848pb1.jpg
Click to expand...

In war the first casualty is innocence. :D

Seriously, people are wasting their breaths over this one. You do not need rocket science to see where everyones loyalties lie. And everybody knows converting is futile at the forums :p
 
I'm surprised that so far nobody interjected the whole PhysX/Cuda/hardware H264 acceleration thing yet.
We're not on a level playing field. I think these *are* the aces up nVidia's sleeve.
While I agree that the GTX280 is over-the-top, I think the GTX260 is a pretty decent card. It has good performance, reasonable power-usage (the HD4870 turned out to be less-than-impressive in that respect, imho), and an impressive featureset (they have multisample buffer readback aswell now, so they have the most compelling feature of DX10.1)...
The only problem with GTX260 at this point is that it's too expensive.
If nVidia can match AMD's pricing, it will be a good card. If they shrink it to 55 nm later, it will be an even better card (and they could make a GTX260GX2?). And then the added value of PhysX and things should start to really kick in aswell, because I'm quite sure that at least TWIMTBP games will adopt PhysX, and that's generally quite a significant percentage of all games.
Ofcourse these advantages also go for 9800GTX+, which is also a pretty solid card.
 
Silus said:
As for the 800 SPs rumor, there was NO proof, up until previews came along, but obviously it was speculated to be true/false. Only your fanboy dreams
Click to expand...

Actually Silus as I have said in another post there was a lot of strong evidence to support this 800 SP rumor. Not only did we have the slides, but we had leaked syn benchmarks showing specific tests that backed up the claim, we had relaible people on the inside whos track record has been great in the past, then we had the folding home people accidently out-ing this info a few weeks before the launch. Taking all of this together is still not 100% proof but when you start hearing the same thing from multiple independent sources its starts to mount a case in favor of it.
 
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arives.
 
vengence said:
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arives.
Click to expand...

I wonder if PS3's and xbox 360's costed 1500 bucks and games 125$... how long Console gaming would last?
 
vengence said:
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arives.
Click to expand...

You need to factor in other materials, assembly, testing (this one costs a bundle), freight, administration, Marketing, R&D etc. Don't underestimate how much they can add up.

I personal estimate is that they can cut $100 off the 280 with a max of $150. Any more will come from EOL clearance sales.
 
vengence said:
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arives.
Click to expand...


Actually I have heard that the GTX is quite expensive per chip due to the large die and low yeild. Numbers as high as 100$ per chip have been floating around. Not sure I would beleive them. That and the PCB will probably cost more due to the higher number of layers needed to support 512 mb memory buss..So I would expect that the 4850 to be a lot cheaper to make for the simple fact they get more per wafer....
 
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arrives.
Click to expand...
Care to cite any sources? Particularly how the 512MB RAM and simpler PCB of the 4850 and the 1GB RAM and complex 512-bit PCB of the 280 both cost the same. Oh, and this doesn't even cover many, many things. Hypernova spelled them out for you.
 
gs29 said:
Care to cite any sources? Particularly how the 512MB RAM and simpler PCB of the 4850 and the 1GB RAM and complex 512-bit PCB of the 280 both cost the same. Oh, and this doesn't even cover many, many things. Hypernova spelled them out for you.
Click to expand...

excellent post
 
Scali2 said:
I'm surprised that so far nobody interjected the whole PhysX/Cuda/hardware H264 acceleration thing yet.
We're not on a level playing field. I think these *are* the aces up nVidia's sleeve.
While I agree that the GTX280 is over-the-top, I think the GTX260 is a pretty decent card. It has good performance, reasonable power-usage (the HD4870 turned out to be less-than-impressive in that respect, imho), and an impressive featureset (they have multisample buffer readback aswell now, so they have the most compelling feature of DX10.1)...
The only problem with GTX260 at this point is that it's too expensive.
If nVidia can match AMD's pricing, it will be a good card. If they shrink it to 55 nm later, it will be an even better card (and they could make a GTX260GX2?). And then the added value of PhysX and things should start to really kick in aswell, because I'm quite sure that at least TWIMTBP games will adopt PhysX, and that's generally quite a significant percentage of all games.
Ofcourse these advantages also go for 9800GTX+, which is also a pretty solid card.
Click to expand...


The GTX260 is a very good card. It seems a very solid, stable and all-round excellent performer, it is just the price that is too high at the moment.

However, you mention all the things that Nvidia could do to counter ATI, but I don't think ATI is going to sit back and wait for Nvidia's next move, I have a feeling they know they have a winner with their newest card. I think they would love to shrink their chip to 45 nm if they could and didn't they have their own physics set now as well? (Havok?)


Anyhow, these are great times for the consumers. With ATI performing a lot better with the 4000 series than I expected, competition between the two brands is only good for us!
 
vengence said:
God get over your selves on the price of the day. Halving the cost of a GT280 die will only bring 60$ off the price. Outside the GPU and RAM the rest of the BOM (bill of materials) for the cards is the same. That means they are making an absolute fucking killing at the 650 price. Let me lay it out for you.

200$ 4850 - 50$ GPU = 150. 150-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 100$. Thats 100$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.
650$ GTX280 - 150$ GPU = 500 500-50$ of RAM and rest of card = 450$. Thats 450$ to spread between Nvidia, manufactoring, and Retailer.

They are selling at 650$ now because there is no competition to it. They will just lower the price to what it needs to be when competition arives.
Click to expand...

Yay, let's play armchair executive now.

If nVidia is NOT desperate for margins the 280 pricing would be in line with the 260 scaling, NOT being abysmal as it is now.
 
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