AMVA vs SPVA difference.

sblantipodi

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Hi all,
what is the difference between AMVA and SPVA?

This monitor seems to be an AMVA, what is AMVA and what is the difference when comparing it to SPVA?
 

Namelessme

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I'm sure others know more about this than I do, but from what I seem to recall:

A-MVA uses a single pixel structure, while S-PVA is double. As for what that means...

A-MVA may play with windows cleartype better, due to the way it renders fonts. It probably will be a bit worse regarding angles, yet it will have deeper blacks than S-PVA.
S-PVA probably will have better angles, maybe better color accuracy, yet somewhat less contrast/blacks, and some users consider text a bit fuzzy under cleartype (never bothered me, but there is some difference when comparing to IPS, for instance).

S-PVA contrast seems to be around 1000-1300ish, while A-MVA can go up to 2500-3000ish, I think?

One other difference, which is less a panel issue and simply a manufacturer one, is that it seems cheaper models use A-MVA, while higher end NEC/Eizo/Samsungs used S-PVA. But it's sort of difficult to even find S-PVA in any monitors nowadays, besides in very expensive NECs or Eizos.
 

Zorlag

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There is also cheaper PVA called C-PVA. But there are far more AMVA models around for some reason.

I have Philips AMVA and Eizo C-PVA here next to each other and Namelessme:s comments seem quite accurate description in my opinion.
 

Namelessme

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I think C-PVA is also a single pixel structure and also has deeper blacks/better contrast than S-PVA. Although A-MVA may have somewhat better blacks than C-PVA.

But it too probably has worse angles than S-PVA, and there have been some reports of black crush with that panel type. Well, there have been reports of black crush with all VA panel types really, but I should say it seems more common with C-PVA than S-PVA.

It is sort of odd than C-PVA wasn't developed more. I guess Samsung went 'all in' on their PLS, sort of leaving VA to die. Sort of a shame, as no IPS screen can reach the contrast/blacks of VA. Even Samsungs newer VA monitors don't use their own panel. Instead they use A-MVA.
 

MechanicalMan

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I think C-PVA is also a single pixel structure and also has deeper blacks/better contrast than S-PVA. Although A-MVA may have somewhat better blacks than C-PVA.
If nothing else, it seems that Samsung's newer A-MVA monitors have deeper blacks than their old C-PVA monitors. My 2333T C-PVA can hit about 2,800:1 (max) at normal luminance levels. At 110 cd/m2, my black level is 0.04 cd/m2, sometimes measuring at 0.05. PRAD measured the 650 A-MVA at ~3,700:1 at normal luminance levels, with a minimum contrast ratio of around 3,333:1 at very low luminance levels (down to 30 cd/m2). That would put the black level at 0.03 cd/m2 with white calibrated to 110 cd/m2. :D I was a little afraid that was too good to be true, but this picture of a 650 next to a GW2450HM (also A-MVA) is reassuring.

and there have been some reports of black crush with that panel type. Well, there have been reports of black crush with all VA panel types really, but I should say it seems more common with C-PVA than S-PVA.
I don't think there is anything inherent to C-PVA that causes it to exhibit more black crush, although I can say that my own C-PVA monitor does have bad black crush (which can be fixed with a profile, but it is bad without correction). My impression is that newer VA monitors just don't have the problem with severe black crush that some older VA monitors had, regardless of their panel type. For example, I saw a review of the F2380 stating that it crushed black/gray below 10 IRE, and I think my 2333T is probably just as bad if I disable my profile. But a review of the NEC EX231Wp said that gray was distinguishable down to 2 IRE. Unless I'm mistaken, all three of those are C-PVA monitors. And FWIW, I think PRAD's 650 (A-MVA) review states that gray/black can be clearly distinguished down to 3 IRE.

Even Samsungs newer VA monitors don't use their own panel. Instead they use A-MVA.
Yeah, but luckily, they seem pretty nice. I don't have any hands-on experience with one yet, but I plan to buy one later this year. According to PRAD's review, they should be better than my 2333T in at least a couple key areas: contrast ratio up to ~3,700:1 from ~2,700:1 and much better color uniformity. I'm expecting it to be better in other areas as well. Since I care very little about response time and will be using a profile for correction of color inaccuracy and black crush, my expectations are pretty high.
 

sblantipodi

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I would like to compare my SPVA to this new AMVA.
What monitor can I buy to change my EIZO s2433 in favour of a monitor?
 
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don't think there is anything inherent to C-PVA that causes it to exhibit more black crush,
Correct. The black crush of the F2380 (or other screens with similar behaviour) is just an effect of displaying gamma corrected material (in most cases sRGB sources) on a display which has a gradation that doesn't form the gamma corrections inverse. In an ICC based workflow this is no problem as long as the current screen characteristic is correlating to the display profile but in unmanaged applications this can cause the mentioned effect. Only solution is in most cases a correction via the videocard LUT in the calibration context to achieve the desired gradation.

Best regards

Denis
 

Namelessme

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I would like to compare my SPVA to this new AMVA.
What monitor can I buy to change my EIZO s2433 in favour of a monitor?
I guess the Samsung 650 may be your best bet if you want an A-MVA monitor. Phillips and BenQ also make A-MVA monitors.

I have a feeling you may miss some of the Eizo features, as A-MVA monitors won't have the same features as high-end monitors do. They also won't be wide gamut, but depending on what you want it for, that may be a plus. If you are happy with the Eizo, I wouldn't swap it for an A-MVA. Perhaps an A-MVA would make a decent secondary monitor for it though.
 

sblantipodi

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I guess the Samsung 650 may be your best bet if you want an A-MVA monitor. Phillips and BenQ also make A-MVA monitors.

I have a feeling you may miss some of the Eizo features, as A-MVA monitors won't have the same features as high-end monitors do. They also won't be wide gamut, but depending on what you want it for, that may be a plus. If you are happy with the Eizo, I wouldn't swap it for an A-MVA. Perhaps an A-MVA would make a decent secondary monitor for it though.
Obviously I will not swap my EIZO for an AMVA, but I would like to add AMVA to my collection. :)
 

Namelessme

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I'd probably recommend the Samsung then. The BenQs have too many complaints for my liking.

When you said 'change my Eizo in favour of a monitor' I thought you wanted to swap them. Going from a high end Eizo to a cheaper A-MVA did sound sort of weird to me... so yeah, as an extra monitor, it should be fine.
 

Zorlag

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Philips I have is quite nice even though I bought cheapest 27 inch model (with simple stand). I`d happily buy another one if I had more table space. 280 euros well spend.
 

NCX

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I just fired up the old Samsung F2380 (purchased in 2009) and measured the default gamma with HCFR. The gamma averages around 2.42 but it spikes to 2.9 with 10% grey



The unit TFT Central had an average gamma of around 1.9-2.0 and so did Extrahardware CZ's so I think they fixed the crush issue with later units.

My F2380MX's default gamma was around 1.9-2.0 out of the box, changing the gamma to mode 2 put it much closer to 2.2. My F2380MX has higher contrast (3,500:1 vs 2800:1 @140cdm/2) than the F2380 as well.

I'm pretty sure ToastyX said the 2333t did not have black crush like the F2380, but it used a C-PVA variant with differently structured pixels. I had a BenQ EW2420 which had worse viewing angles than my F2380MX and LED blue tinting.

The Samsung S24A650D & Phillips 241P4QPYES seem like good contenders. I'd take the Samsung for the semi-glossy coating, better viewing angles and black bezel over the phillips though.

Phillips Viewing Angles

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2012/test-philips-241p4qpyes-teil7.html#Blickwinkel

Samsung Viewing Angles

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2012/test-samsung-s24a650d-led-teil4.html#Blickwinkel

The Samsung's only 220$ in Canada. =Dead= reviewed the S27A650D and wasn't to pleased with it:

http://www.overclockers.ru/lab/4474...monitorov_ASUS_VE276Q_i_Samsung_S27A650D.html
 

Peat Moss

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Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a 22" (21.5") A-MVA 1920 x1080 monitor?

I've searched Flatpanels.com and Samsung's website, and can't seem to find an A-MVA panel in that size and res.
 

Namelessme

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Did you look at the Samsung SyncMaster S22A650S? I think it's A-MVA.

Samsung doesn't make the A-MVA panels themselves, AUO makes them.

I see they have a 21.5: A-MVA panel, M215HW02 V0 in production. Not entirely sure which monitors use that panel though. BenQ and Phillips may be places to look.

I know Eizo makes some 22"ers at that resolution (they may even be 1920x1200), but they are all S-PVA , I think.
 

Peat Moss

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Did you look at the Samsung SyncMaster S22A650S? I think it's A-MVA.

Samsung doesn't make the A-MVA panels themselves, AUO makes them.

I see they have a 21.5: A-MVA panel, M215HW02 V0 in production. Not entirely sure which monitors use that panel though. BenQ and Phillips may be places to look.

I know Eizo makes some 22"ers at that resolution (they may even be 1920x1200), but they are all S-PVA , I think.
Thanks. The viewing angles for that Samsung S22A650 definitely points to either an IPS or a VA of some kind. I haven't been able to track down what kind of panel it actually does have though.
 

albovin

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All *VA monitors of all generations regardless any additional letters have color shift (and black crush as its form). This is a hardware (Vertically Aligned liquid crystal display) issue and cannot be corrected.
Newer versions of *VA technology, as was mentioned, have been improved over old S-PVA (improved CR and pixel structure, no wide gamut issues, less eye strain for text work).
 

sblantipodi

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All *VA monitors of all generations regardless any additional letters have color shift (and black crush as its form). This is a hardware (Vertically Aligned liquid crystal display) issue and cannot be corrected.
Newer versions of *VA technology, as was mentioned, have been improved over old S-PVA (improved CR and pixel structure, no wide gamut issues, less eye strain for text work).
what are the newer model over S-PVA?
What are the wide gamut issues you are talking about and for first, have you ever
seen a good S-PVA? :D
 
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What are the wide gamut issues
Only issue is the reproduction of sRGB content in unmanaged applications without color space emulation or at least sufficient precise fixed emulation presets (with current processing technology and 3D-LUTs it is even possible to realise "full featured" CMM functionality* in display hardware; examples are current Eizo displays with Color Navigator 6.x (see last two screens) or current NEC displays in combination with SpectraView Profiler 5.x (can't link to the report as it isn't free yet)).

I should add that also many "sRGB screens" don't achieve this characteristic out of the box completely – especially regarding tonal response curve (= gradation) or color gamut fitting (over- and/ or undercoverages).

*
Emulation of CMYK process color spaces is – in contrast to RGB working color spaces – of course very limited (inherently). Softproofing should be carried out in a managed workflow with respect to all participating ICC profiles.
 
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Peat Moss

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Wait, I thought if a panel had greater contrast (like a VA) and a lower black depth, that this helps against black crush (?).
 

Namelessme

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Thanks. The viewing angles for that Samsung S22A650 definitely points to either an IPS or a VA of some kind. I haven't been able to track down what kind of panel it actually does have though.
The 24" and 27" 650 series is A-MVA, so logically one would assume the 22" should be the same.

As for newer VAs improving over S-PVA, I'd say (in my opinion), yes and no. C-PVA and A-MVA have better contrasts/black, and may be better for text due to pixel structure, as mentioned. Yet there have been reports where angles are worse in C-PVA/A-MVA (probably due to said pixel structure change). As for wide gamut no longer being a problem, that could be good or bad, depending on what you want. There are/were also s-rgb S-PVA monitors too (and still being made now), so S-PVA doesn't necessarily mean it has to be wide gamut.

One key difference may not be in the panels themselves, but how manufacturers use said panels. A lot of the older S-PVA panels are found in Eizos, NEC, Samsungs, etc and seem to use better electronics than cheaper BenQs, etc. So overdrive, color accuracy, back-light conformity/etc may have worked a bit better with some S-PVA monitors compared to newer A-MVAs, but perhaps not due to just panel tech necessarily.
 

albovin

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sRGB S-PVA discontinued long long ago. The last one I tested was 24" Gateway.
The last S-PVAs were wide gamut. I don't count anything below 24".

Viewing angles in c-PVA are not worse than in S-PVA.
 

sblantipodi

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Only issue is the reproduction of sRGB content in unmanaged applications without color space emulation or at least sufficient precise fixed emulation presets (with current processing technology and 3D-LUTs it is even possible to realise "full featured" CMM functionality* in display hardware; examples are current Eizo displays with Color Navigator 6.x (see last two screens) or current NEC displays in combination with SpectraView Profiler 5.x (can't link to the report as it isn't free yet)).

I should add that also many "sRGB screens" don't achieve this characteristic out of the box completely – especially regarding tonal response curve (= gradation) or color gamut fitting (over- and/ or undercoverages).

*
Emulation of CMYK process color spaces is – in contrast to RGB working color spaces – of course very limited (inherently). Softproofing should be carried out in a managed workflow with respect to all participating ICC profiles.
are this a problem of S-PVA or of any wide gamut monitors without hardware color space emulation?
thanks denis.
 

sblantipodi

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sRGB S-PVA discontinued long long ago. The last one I tested was 24" Gateway.
The last S-PVAs were wide gamut. I don't count anything below 24".

Viewing angles in c-PVA are not worse than in S-PVA.
ok, you haven't seen/had any good S-PVA, so why you talk?
 

SD45

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I have a Samsung 244t and HP LP 2465 in daily use. I have NEC 2470WNX's and a nearly-new NEC LCD 2490WUXi in storage. The 244t, the HP, and 2470 all use the same S-PVA panel.

I work long hours on the 244t and the HP and have found no problem with reading text. Black crush is present (less so on the 2470 and the HP, a bit more on the 244t) but not distracting. The 244t's contrast is pretty high; when I edit photos on that display and post them on the web, I sometimes get comments that the contrast could be stronger, and I have concluded that the 244t's high contrast is fooling me to some extent. The NEC 2470 is more moderate and images look a lot like they do on the NEC 2490.

I've seen the closeup comparisons of different types of VA pixel structure posted on this site and while I have no issues reading and writing all day long on S-PVA displays, it could be that later VA versions make it easier. Apart from that, if you want a 24-inch, 16:10 sRGB VA display for writing, number-crunching, and photo editing, I don't see much improvement in recent years.
 

Namelessme

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Regarding differences in text, I think it primarily has to do with having cleartype enabled, as the subpixel rendering seems to dislike the dual structure of s-pva. If no subpixel rendering is going on, then maybe the text will be a bit sharper.

I have limited experience with s-pva vs ips text, but from what I have seen myself, comparing a nec 2170/2190 & eizo s1921 vs a nec 2490 is that the text is sharper on the 2490, yet it is still mostly acceptable on the VA monitors too. Basically the 2490 looks pretty sharp while the VA monitors' text is a tad blurry, almost CRT-like -- not nearly as bad as an ancient CRT, but there is some similarity. So for text work, I do find the 2490 better, but it's not like the VAs are unusable or anything.
 

SD45

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Regarding differences in text, I think it primarily has to do with having cleartype enabled, as the subpixel rendering seems to dislike the dual structure of s-pva. If no subpixel rendering is going on, then maybe the text will be a bit sharper.

I work with Cleartype enabled. From the closeup images that have been posted in the past of S-PVA pixel structure, it makes sense to me why it would potentially conflict with Cleartype.

I have limited experience with s-pva vs ips text, but from what I have seen myself, comparing a nec 2170/2190 & eizo s1921 vs a nec 2490 is that the text is sharper on the 2490, yet it is still mostly acceptable on the VA monitors too. Basically the 2490 looks pretty sharp while the VA monitors' text is a tad blurry, almost CRT-like -- not nearly as bad as an ancient CRT, but there is some similarity. So for text work, I do find the 2490 better, but it's not like the VAs are unusable or anything.
These observations fall within the range of my own experience. The NEC 2490 is the sharpest display I have for text, but the greater contrast of the S-PVA displays I use makes up for some of the difference. They are all quite acceptable for use over long hours of writing and number-crunching. The NEC has an advantage for photo editing, but not one that compels me to haul it out except for something that will be published in print.

BTW, the panel common to the Samsung 244t, the HP LP 2465, and the NEC 2470WNX as well as several other displays (including an Eizo model, IIRC) was the Samsung LTM240M2.
 
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