AMD Introduces Mantle At GPU 14

There's a point everyone seems to be missing here (everyone is harping on about the GPU implementation of MANTLE) and that is that this API optimises the CPU as well. So what you'll see is that games that use MANTLE will see a boost irrespective of the GPU - due to the CPU optimisations the API will bring to the mix - as well as an additional boost if the API detects an AMD GPU as well... so it would seem to me that this API is a win REGARDLESS of whether you're running a green team or red team card - unless I've completely misunderstood the slides and the info put out by the presentation...
 
now this is a good thread.
If DX renderer is out of the equation, then couldn't steam OS use mantle?
Looks like someone might be cutting out the "pain in the ass" middle man.
 
cptnjarhead said:
now this is a good thread.
If DX renderer is out of the equation, then couldn't steam OS use mantle?
Looks like someone might be cutting out the "pain in the ass" middle man.
Click to expand...

OpenGL makes far more sense for Valve and the SteamOS as it is more prevalent in the Linux environment and it makes porting games much easier between PCs/Apples and PCs/Tablets. Since Valve will likely continue to be the vendor of choice for Indie developers (who are most likely the ones to port) the OpenGL standard is far more strategic an alignment for them (in my opinion) ;)
 
cptnjarhead said:
now this is a good thread.
If DX renderer is out of the equation, then couldn't steam OS use mantle?
Looks like someone might be cutting out the "pain in the ass" middle man.
Click to expand...

If it's a low level API developed by AMD, then yes. When you're working with something like that, it's OS agnostic. It bypasses the OS and abstraction layers and lets you work directly with the hardware. In principle, it could run on OS X just like it could run on Windows 95.

From Anandtech article:

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place. Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.
If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.
Click to expand...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

In fact that the significance of developers in this entire process should not be understated. Mantle exists because it’s faster than high level APIs, it makes porting low level console code to the PC easier, and as it turns out, because it’s something developers have been telling AMD they want. More than anything else about Mantle, this is the point AMD has been trying to drive home, as they are well aware of the potential controversy Mantle would bring. Mantle doesn’t just exist because AMD wants to leverage their console connection, but Mantle exists because developers want to leverage it too.
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As a result of this, for as great as Glide was at the time, it’s widely considered a good thing that Glide died out and that Direct3D took over as the reining king of PC graphics APIs. Developers stopped utilizing multiple rendering paths, and their single rendering path was better for everyone as a result. Having games written exclusively in a common, industry standard API was better for everyone.

Mantle by its very nature reverses that, by reestablishing a low level API that exists at least in part in competition with Direct3D and OpenGL. Consequently while Mantle is good for AMD users, is Mantle good for NVIDIA and Intel users? Do developers start splitting their limited resources between Mantle and Direct3D, spending less time and resources on their Direct3D rendering paths as a result?

At the risk of walking a very fine line here, like so many aspects of Mantle these are not questions we have the answer to today. And despite the reservations this creates over Mantle this doesn’t mean we believe Mantle should not exist. But these are real concerns, and they are concerns that developers will need to be careful to address if they intend to use Mantle. Mantle’s potential and benefits are clear, but every stakeholder in PC game production needs to be sure that Mantle doesn’t lead to a repeat of the harmful aspects of Glide.
Click to expand...

So if Ryan's right, this is likely the AMD-built low level API for the Xbone. DICE/EA are using it for BF4, and that likely explains the "Windows for the moment" line. It also explains how this is cross platform, as being that close to hardware would make it OS agnostic. So, yes, this can presumably go straight into your Steambox/SteamOS with very minimal effort.

I hope this pans out for AMD, but I also really wish nVidia announces something similar. Given that this is being used on an MS OS, and likely even on MS's own console, it seems like DirectX advancement has truly crawled to a complete halt and even the hardware vendors have lost faith in Microsoft.
 
Well, I watched that whole presentation.

I came away with a little bit of information on the new GPUs.

But I don't know when the things are hitting the shelves, how much they cost and how they stack up against the competition.

I saw that sound is now the big deal? Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't care a shit about that.

I didn't hear any discussion about making Crossfire better, which will be needed for the giant new resolutions that were thrown around.

Lastly, I saw where there's a new software code that will make it easier to take console games and move them over to the PC........so I took that to mean I might as well just buy a console, because there will be no innovation or motivation to improve console games if the same code works for everything......yay.

That and I fear that this new code will be AMD exclusive, so I'll need two systems to be able to use all the games that I want to play......great.
 
mrmandude said:
If it's a low level API developed by AMD, then yes. When you're working with something like that, it's OS agnostic. It bypasses the OS and abstraction layers and lets you work directly with the hardware. In principle, it could run on OS X just like it could run on Windows 95.

From Anandtech article:



http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn




So if Ryan's right, this is likely the AMD-built low level API for the Xbone. DICE/EA are using it for BF4, and that likely explains the "Windows for the moment" line. It also explains how this is cross platform, as being that close to hardware would make it OS agnostic. So, yes, this can presumably go straight into your Steambox/SteamOS with very minimal effort.

I hope this pans out for AMD, but I also really wish nVidia announces something similar. Given that this is being used on an MS OS, and likely even on MS's own console, it seems like DirectX advancement has truly crawled to a complete halt and even the hardware vendors have lost faith in Microsoft.
Click to expand...


wont ever come to Steam OS Valve is working with NV and there betting on OpenGL
what where going to end up with is 3 or 4 competing APIs and end up with games that may only run on one vendors hardware or the other

AMD will use there position on the consoles to make AMD only PC ports
 
No, magoo, the low level API is exclusive, just like it is on consoles. It can't be hardware agnostic as that defeats the purpose of creating a low level API. Making something like that that's also capable of running on nVidia hardware is akin to running in a perfect circle but attempting to cross the street.

It's not going to make games 'AMD exclusive' as they'll still be using higher level APIs if you aren't running GCN-based GPUs. The only thing this does is leverage AMD's console wins so AMD's PC hardware performs better - and this makes sense given it's essentially the same exact hardware.

And quit feeding the trolls, please.

http://techreport.com/news/25428/dr...inity-4k-frame-pacing-issues-coming-this-fall
 
THIS part should worry every on that has a stake in PC gaming
if you ever want to have a choice in what hardware you run then this needs to be stopped now

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place. Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.
Click to expand...
 
B00nie said:
The only good outcome that may come out of this is another death blow to MS dependance if mantle works on linux.
Click to expand...

Death blow? At that another? They aren't too good at dealing death blows I guess.
 
Lorien said:
The amount of ignorant that can be contained in a single post is truly astounding. AMD is selling complete chips to the console makers and getting paid in full for every single one of them as they are the only ones (besides intel) with a license to manufacture x86 chips.
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I do like how you call someone ignorant in the first part of your post and then post something you know nothing about. I do so love irony. :D

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/processors/nano/
 
Elios, both the higher level APIs - OpenGL and DirectX - are still there and would still be utilized. Quit trolling.

The only difference is that rigs with AMD GPUs with GCN architecture are going to perform better (as are both Intel and AMD CPUs, coincidentally). As far as the consumer is concerned the games will still be on DirectX or OpenGL, but if you've got a GCN card then you'll get a free performance boost. They won't 'not run' on nVidia or Intel hardware. They'll perform just as they always did with the same high level APIs you're used to. No difference.

For the developer, this just gives them another option. Make no mistake, it's going to take a crapton of effort on AMD's part to see that developers use Mantle along with the higher level API of choice (openGL or DirectX) when they're porting a game over. But considering the developers have already used very similar AMD hardware and a very similar lower level API on the consoles when developing the game in the first place, it becomes a much easier proposition (portasition?) - though by no means certain. It'll still require developers to go the extra mile, it's just that extra mile can be done on a bicycle rather than jogged.

Elios, quit spreading FUD. You're the same 'sontin' guy on Anandtech that's annoying everyone there too.
 
mrmandude said:
Elios, both the higher level APIs - OpenGL and DirectX - are still there and would still be utilized. Quit trolling.

The only difference is that rigs with AMD GPUs with GCN architecture are going to perform better (as are both Intel and AMD CPUs, coincidentally). As far as the consumer is concerned the games will still be on DirectX or OpenGL, but if you've got a GCN card then you'll get a free performance boost. They won't 'not run' on nVidia or Intel hardware. They'll perform just as they always did with the same high level APIs you're used to. No difference.

For the developer, this just gives them another option. Make no mistake, it's going to take a crapton of effort on AMD's part to see that developers use Mantle along with the higher level API of choice (openGL or DirectX) when they're porting a game over. But considering the developers have already used very similar AMD hardware and a very similar lower level API on the consoles when developing the game in the first place, it becomes a much easier proposition (portasition?) - though by no means certain. It'll still require developers to go the extra mile, it's just that extra mile can be done on a bicycle rather than jogged.

Elios, quit spreading FUD. You're the same 'sontin' guy on Anandtech that's annoying everyone there too.
Click to expand...

FOR NOW
IF this IS the XB1 low level API PC GAMING IS FUCKED
AMD WILL convince at lest one dev to make a AAA Mantle only game in the next 2 years
 
my guess as to what game itll be
most likely Battlefield 5 will be Mantle only on release
 
Elios said:
FOR NOW
IF this IS the XB1 low level API PC GAMING IS FUCKED
AMD WILL convince at lest one dev to make a AAA Mantle only game in the next 2 years
Click to expand...

No. Again you're trolling and spreading FUD.

If this is the Xbone API then that means that the higher level DirectX API is quite literally built in, meaning that developers use both. For non-AMD hardware that makes no difference whatsoever. For AMD hardware you get a free performance boost.

What you're implying is idiotic. AMD would have to get a developer who develops their game on the console to delete the OpenGL/DirectX portions of their code (they they spent months/years working on) and ignore the vast majority of the market by sorting through their code and making it Mantle/AMD specific. So not only would developers do MORE work, but they'd also get LESS money out of it.

That's not, at all, what this is. For your sake, I hope you're trolling.
 
kbrickley said:
OpenGL makes far more sense for Valve and the SteamOS as it is more prevalent in the Linux environment and it makes porting games much easier between PCs/Apples and PCs/Tablets. Since Valve will likely continue to be the vendor of choice for Indie developers (who are most likely the ones to port) the OpenGL standard is far more strategic an alignment for them (in my opinion) ;)
Click to expand...

AMD already announced that the Mantle API will be open source. So it'll make its way to Linux in no time. If anyone lived through the Voodoo Glide api era, then this is nothing new. This also why Glide was so awesome, cause the difference between it and OpenGL or Direct3D was apparent.

I certainly see more use of OpenGL, but I'm not against Mantle either. Will developers need to do more work? Well that depends on what they need out of their games. Right now when a game makes use of OpenGL or Direct 3D, it causes overhead. Much like how Wine creates overhead for running Direct3D games in Linux.

So games that need more power, Mantle makes sense. In Linux I can see Wine getting more performance by using Mantle for playing Direct3D games. This will suck for Nvidia, and probably AMD owners with older hardware. Not that Mantle wouldn't work for Nvidia, but it just wouldn't work as fast. Though Nvidia can go the extra mile and create their own low level api like AMD did.
 
mrmandude said:
If it's a low level API developed by AMD, then yes. When you're working with something like that, it's OS agnostic. It bypasses the OS and abstraction layers and lets you work directly with the hardware. In principle, it could run on OS X just like it could run on Windows 95.

From Anandtech article:



http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn





So if Ryan's right, this is likely the AMD-built low level API for the Xbone. DICE/EA are using it for BF4, and that likely explains the "Windows for the moment" line. It also explains how this is cross platform, as being that close to hardware would make it OS agnostic. So, yes, this can presumably go straight into your Steambox/SteamOS with very minimal effort.

I hope this pans out for AMD, but I also really wish nVidia announces something similar. Given that this is being used on an MS OS, and likely even on MS's own console, it seems like DirectX advancement has truly crawled to a complete halt and even the hardware vendors have lost faith in Microsoft.
Click to expand...

that is very interesting.
Im sick of MS/DX holding games/graphics hostage so to speak.
same here, i hope nvida does something. but something tells me they are pushing more towards mobile platforms.
 
mrmandude said:
No. Again you're trolling and spreading FUD.

If this is the Xbone API then that means that the higher level DirectX API is quite literally built in, meaning that developers use both. For non-AMD hardware that makes no difference whatsoever. For AMD hardware you get a free performance boost.

What you're implying is idiotic. AMD would have to get a developer who develops their game on the console to delete the OpenGL/DirectX portions of their code (they they spent months/years working on) and ignore the vast majority of the market by sorting through their code and making it Mantle/AMD specific. So not only would developers do MORE work, but they'd also get LESS money out of it.

That's not, at all, what this is. For your sake, I hope you're trolling.
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says the 1 day noob

XB1 has 2 APIs a highlevel DX11 based one and a lowlevel API
if Mantle is the low level API it means that game could be made with it that would work on XB1, PS4, AND PC with minor changes to code base
if a game is built with Mantle from the ground up it will NOT NEED to have DX code path in it
5 bucks say AMD puts out a Mantle only tech demo by the end of the year if not at launch of these cards

you clearly do not know how a low level API works

NV will likely try to counter with there own API or push for OpenGL
best case we have 3 competing APIs
worst case we end up with 4 APIs 2 of which wont run on the others hardware
and both NV and AMD will push for games to be on there API ONLY
nether AMD or NV are your friend they are out to make as much money as they can
AMD has the consoles by the balls and WILL use that to try and take the PC as well
 
cptnjarhead said:
that is very interesting.
Im sick of MS/DX holding games/graphics hostage so to speak.
same here, i hope nvida does something. but something tells me they are pushing more towards mobile platforms.
Click to expand...

so instead of MS holding it hostage AMD gets to ?
how is that any better
 
Elios said:
says the 1 day noob

XB1 has 2 APIs a highlevel DX11 based one and a lowlevel API
if Mantle is the low level API it means that game could be made with it that would work on XB1, PS4, AND PC with minor changes to code base
if a game is built with Mantle from the ground up it will NOT NEED to have DX code path in it
5 bucks say AMD puts out a Mantle only tech demo by the end of the year if not at launch of these cards

you clearly do not know how a low level API works

NV will likely try to counter with there own API or push for OpenGL
best case we have 3 competing APIs
worst case we end up with 4 APIs 2 of which wont run on the others hardware
and both NV and AMD will push for games to be on there API ONLY
nether AMD or NV are your friend they are out to make as much money as they can
AMD has the consoles by the balls and WILL use that to try and take the PC as well
Click to expand...

I think these fears are not realistic ... we already have console specific titles that never migrate to the PC and PC specific titles that never migrate to the console ... the addition of another API into the mix doesn't change the basic economics of game production ... there may be some titles (that were already exclusive) that will want to use the optimized API but for titles that are not exclusive or who want a maximum presence (Console, Tablet, PC, Apple) the use of graphics APIs that give them maximum flexibility will still be preferred ;)
 
Elios said:
so instead of MS holding it hostage AMD gets to ?
how is that any better
Click to expand...

true, but MS does not care about hardware. they held pc games back for 10 years. i dont see AMD doing that.
 
I have been around this stuff since the Rendition Rredline (Speedy3d) and 3dfx Glide days, nothing was more frustrating than having one card and needing another card just to run the 3d version of the game.

If RED allows the API to be open and Green supports it, I am all for another API. But if they leave it closed, I don't care if its the best thing since sliced bread, it will just fragment and hurt the end users
 
Elios said:
FOR NOW
IF this IS the XB1 low level API PC GAMING IS FUCKED
AMD WILL convince at lest one dev to make a AAA Mantle only game in the next 2 years
Click to expand...

AMD claims mantle is cross platform and portable.

So in the future, perhaps, we can run amd/nvidia hardware on mantle on SteamOS. Dream come true.
 
B00nie said:
AMD claims mantle is cross platform and portable.

So in the future, perhaps, we can run amd/nvidia hardware on mantle on SteamOS. Dream come true.
Click to expand...

across OS but not hardware

again
A LOW LEVEL API BY ITS VERY NATURE CAN NOT WORK ON OTHER HARDWARE
 
jwcalla said:
Their financials are awful.

Frankly I don't see how they could have even afforded this trip to Hawaii. They should have just filmed it in Sunnyvale using fake background scenery to make it look like Hawaii.

Don't be surprised if MS buys them out within two years.
Click to expand...

AMD's losses have been steadily declining every quarter for the last year. They are expected to return to a profitable company by Q3 which means great things. Their stock has already doubled in the last year alone. Big things are happening for AMD all of which is good news to shareholders.
 
The_CrashMaster said:
I have been around this stuff since the Rendition Rredline (Speedy3d) and 3dfx Glide days, nothing was more frustrating than having one card and needing another card just to run the 3d version of the game.

If RED allows the API to be open and Green supports it, I am all for another API. But if they leave it closed, I don't care if its the best thing since sliced bread, it will just fragment and hurt the end users
Click to expand...

as im reading into it, it seems mantle is more about getting DX out of the picture, not nvidia.
"open" is the key though for sure
 
NickJames said:
AMD's losses have been steadily declining every quarter for the last year. They are expected to return to a profitable company by Q3 which means great things. Their stock has already doubled in the last year alone. Big things are happening for AMD all of which is good news to shareholders.
Click to expand...

and gamers! ;)
 
cptnjarhead said:
and gamers! ;)
Click to expand...

hardly this is BAD news for PC gaming
best case it dies after a year
worst case we end up the NV going under and only AMD left for GPUs
in the mean time we end up with AMD only games and NV only games
or game that only run well on AMD and run like shit on any thing else
bet your ass the shareholders love it AMD could double or triple the asking price of there hardware over night
 
The_CrashMaster said:
I have been around this stuff since the Rendition Rredline (Speedy3d) and 3dfx Glide days, nothing was more frustrating than having one card and needing another card just to run the 3d version of the game.

If RED allows the API to be open and Green supports it, I am all for another API. But if they leave it closed, I don't care if its the best thing since sliced bread, it will just fragment and hurt the end users
Click to expand...

I don't think its instead of DX11. Looks more like AMD is giving developers the option to port the consoles low level optimizations code on PC's with GCN GFX cards. Won't lock out non-GCN users, but give a performance advantage for GCN users by using optimizations that are already there.

Nvidia is working with developers in their TWIMTBP program to optimize for their hardware. AMD is doing the same with Gaming Evolved.

Many on [H] claimed that AMD's console victory wouldn't mean more optimized games for AMD. They seem to have been wrong.

Its claimed to be open source, but its also claimed to be a GCN sentric API (after all, consoles are GCN and AMD only support GCN cards from their own lineup). If Nvidia is to support this, they would probably have to play catch up for a long while, so I doubt they will get onboard. Nvidia is too busy with their own CUDA based ecosystem (bokeh, physx, shield streaming etc).
 
magoo said:
Well, I watched that whole presentation.

I came away with a little bit of information on the new GPUs.

But I don't know when the things are hitting the shelves, how much they cost and how they stack up against the competition.

I saw that sound is now the big deal? Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't care a shit about that.

I didn't hear any discussion about making Crossfire better, which will be needed for the giant new resolutions that were thrown around.

Lastly, I saw where there's a new software code that will make it easier to take console games and move them over to the PC........so I took that to mean I might as well just buy a console, because there will be no innovation or motivation to improve console games if the same code works for everything......yay.

That and I fear that this new code will be AMD exclusive, so I'll need two systems to be able to use all the games that I want to play......great.
Click to expand...

The whole presentation reeked of that signature Apple 'look at us, we're magnificent!', Raja probably brought that back with him.
 
DarkStryke said:
The whole presentation reeked of that signature Apple 'look at us, we're magnificent!'
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382.gif
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
I don't think its instead of DX11. Looks more like AMD is giving developers the option to port the consoles low level optimizations code on PC's with GCN GFX cards. Won't lock out non-GCN users, but give a performance advantage for GCN users by using optimizations that are already there.
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Yes! The "already there" bit means little development budget & time are probably needed to support this, and devs have to like the sound of that.
 
Yakk said:
Yes! The "already there" bit means little development budget & time are probably needed to support this, and devs have to like the sound of that.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And, AMD have had much more contact with developers the last two years then ever before, and I doubt they will let the chance of putting Mantle support into the games get away.

I really hope Nvidia will support Mantle down the road though, since its supposedly going to be a large performance jump and I like to buy both Nvidia and AMD hardware.
 
Yakk said:
Yes! The "already there" bit means little development budget & time are probably needed to support this, and devs have to like the sound of that.
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so, theoretically console games (gta 6) should be available to PC at launch
All things being equal, no extra resources needed to port.
not saying they will, but it leaves little reason except snubbing PC gamers or just exclusive deals with the consoles. maybe this will bridge the gap between consoles and PC's, for titles anyway.
 
The_CrashMaster said:
I have been around this stuff since the Rendition Rredline (Speedy3d) and 3dfx Glide days, nothing was more frustrating than having one card and needing another card just to run the 3d version of the game.
Click to expand...
I lived in that time period and I can tell you it's different today. For many good reasons that I really should need to explain. Go from software rendering to Glide or OpenGL isn't the same as what Mantle will do today.

I'm sure that 99.99% of games made in the future will still support OpenGL and Direct3D, because you'll always need one of these two api's. What Mantle does is offer developers the ability to port highly optimized and tweaked versions of their games over to PC with very little effort. Developers are going to do this anyway, so why not bring some benefits over to PC?

I see future games still being primarily ported to PC with D3D or OGL, but Mantle will be an extra option for them. Especially for games that really need a lot of power.

If RED allows the API to be open and Green supports it, I am all for another API. But if they leave it closed, I don't care if its the best thing since sliced bread, it will just fragment and hurt the end users
Click to expand...
It's already open source, but that makes little difference. What open sourcing does is allows Mantle to work on Linux as well as on Mac. For Nvidia it has no benefits. If Nvidia supported Mantle, it would be just as much work as supporting Direct3D or OpenGL. And games aren't going to be Mantle only, so really why should they?

Though it doesn't mean that low level API's like Mantle aren't the future. We certainly need Nvidia to do the same to stay competitive. As graphic cards get faster, the more performance is lost through Direct3D and OpenGL. So I'd really like to see Nvidia create their own low level API.

This means more work for developers in the future, but is that bad? We already ask developers to use 64-bit, and make their applications muti-threaded. To support more then one api shouldn't be an issue.
 
FFS, people. AMD would not place themselves in a position to try and create a market monopoly by locking down this new LAPI for use with AMD-only hardware. nVidia, Intel, Sony, a mass of game devs, mobile igp/dgpu chip/product manufs and devs, and whomever else feels like joining in would jump all over AMD with a flurry of lawsuits.

Keep in mind one thing from the not so distant past: 3Dfx's GLide. In the dawn of 3D gaming, GLide was the single reason games are at where we are now, as it propelled 3D gaming into mass popularity and availability. However, 3dFX ended up crippling it with things such as a 16bit color limit. Plus not allowing it to be either open source or emulated from the beginning while DX and OpenGL were advancing graphics rendering technology and implementing new techniques and features way beyond the capabilities of GLide and at a rate that 3Dfx could only dream of acheiving.

The point of my opinion on all this is, if AMD locks Mantle down at some point in the future, then they are going to be going head-to-head with the true industry powerhouses which will lead to AMD hurting themselves so bad that they'll be screaming rape into a mirror.
 
Unknown-One said:
Lets hope not... wasn't long after Glide was introduced that 3DFX went bust and was purchased by Nvidia. :eek:
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You don't know your history. Glide was introduced the moment 3DFX introduced Voodoo graphics to the PC. How else do you think they go graphics working? That's when they were super successful.

3DFX went belly up for a number of other reasons. They became the only graphics card manufacturer to sell Voodoo cards when they introduced Voodoo 3. Which hurt choice for customers. The real nail in their coffin was the lack of advancement. When the TNT2 was released it offered 32-bit color and 2k textures. The Voodoo 3 was stuck using 16-bit color and 256x256 textures for a long time. Let me tell you, that was a big difference in image quality. On top of that, the performance difference was just not enough to justify the use of Voodoo cards. On top of that, by the time 3DFX released the Voodoo 4, it was too little too late. By then Nvidia had Geforce cards that had T&L capabilties, which just crushed Voodoo 4's. The only thing Voodoo 4's had going was really really good anti-aliasing. But Nvidia and ATI had their own anti-aliasing which was nearly as good, but with more performance and features. ATI took their place as second with the Radeon which also had T&L.

The only thing that kept 3DFX going was Glide. It was just so much better to work with then D3D or OGL. So developers kept working with Glide, even if 3DFX was on their death bed. Some of the best applications ever made were Glide only. For example UltraHLE was the first Nintendo 64 emulator, and it was fast. This emulator could run Nintendo 64 games at full speed with very low end specs. All you needed was a Pentium II @ 300 Mhz and a Voodoo 2 graphics card, and you were set. Of course it was Glide only. Lots of Glide wrappers were made, but you needed a better PC to run the emulator at full speed. Compared to modern emulators on the PC that use D3D and OGL, you need a better spec machine to have playable games. Though compared to modern PCs and cell phones, that's not an issue.
 
Ashbringer said:
This means more work for developers in the future, but is that bad?
To support more then one api shouldn't be an issue.
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from the article:
but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there
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but if the xbone uses "mantle" wouldnt using mantle for PC make more sense than anything else?

seems to me that nvidia would fair better by adopting mantle than not, when it comes to pc game support. AMD has the ball in their court so to speak, because their chips and api is running in all those next gen consoles with a crap ton of games comming to back it up.
just mho :)
 
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