AMD in Trouble? RX 480 Powergate

Discussion in 'AMD Flavor' started by Ocellaris, Jun 29, 2016.

  1. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    I normally don't care what anyone on Reddit says, however this is fairly compelling evidence that AMD should have put an 8 pin header on the cards:

    RX480 fails PCI-E specification

    Note this partially point back to a [H] post, though I couldn't figure out if they were the same person or people were copying posts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  2. -Strelok-

    -Strelok- [H]ardForum Junkie

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    How hard is it to add an 8-pin power connector versus a 6 pin? Not sure how important this is, but that seems so trivial that I'm not sure why they went with a 6-pin.
     
  3. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    It's not hard. They probably went with the 6 pin to appear more efficient. Or more likely they designed the hardware to run at slower speeds, then had to ramp up the clocks before releasing an embarrassment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
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  4. raghu78

    raghu78 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Exactly. But they ended up looking downright stupid. AMD find new ways to mess up a new product launch. I have never seen a company screw up so many times and in so many different ways.
     
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  5. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

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    480 isn't a good name for a GPU it seems.
     
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  6. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    As they point out in a link he has at Point 9, it will not cause an issue due to the spec of PCIE increased from the 2004 reference book and so there is a fair bit of leeway.
    That said there are two critical considerations that is not raised.
    1) Dual 480; considering one card pushes the mainboard slot beyond its limits, adding another card is a bad idea as the mainboard slot is shared powered.
    2) When OC Tom's Hardware identified a substantial increase of draw for the PCIe slot (this I think is referred to as Mainboard 12V in chart), enough for them to cancel OCing.

    The caveat is that this is only a small sample base, and only1 or 2 review sites break down power consumption to each individual connection, so it could go unnoticed in general.

    Here is the measured chart from Tom's Hardware, bear in mind that we are interested in the draw that is somewhere between the average and peak (which will be very short durations and less of an issue).
    [​IMG]

    In theory it would be better if the power was more dumped onto the PCIe 12V Molex connector rather than Mainboard.
    Most modern PSU and associated cables are designed to 8A, with a 6-pin connector that is 2x12V, giving 192W, BUT I would not want to be near that limit as only the Molex connector is universally guaranteed for 8A.

    As reference the 1080FE had a peak of 60W and average of 40W for the Mainboard 12V with the rest going over the PCIe 12V Molex connector, when measured by Tom's Hardware.

    The real issue (ignoring for now using 2x480 in a PC) was when they tried to OC their card:
    As only 1 or 2 actually measure each connector, it is not possible to tell if this is standard behaviour with 480 or some issue with a few.
    But we do know quite a few show an overall total that is above the 2004 specification, and OC adds a chunk to either or both 12V connections

    For now I would not OC or put 2 into a PC until the situation it is further clarified.
    And I really would want Tom's Hardware to test a custom AIB OC before I put it into my PC, or another site that breaks down the power distribution.
    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  7. THUMPer

    THUMPer I Sit in Stink

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    More power! PCI-E BE DAMNED!
     
  8. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    No the thing about certification and legal consequences was copy pasted from a guy here on H, I linked to his post

    I have added more links to power measurements to the reddit thread, we are at 6 independent tests presenting similar data, and 4 measuring per rail if I'm not mistaken. There's is definitely a pattern of an combined 80W+ AVERAGE on motherboard 12v+3.3v

    The limit is still 75 Max post 2004 right ?
     
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  9. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    You made the Reddit thread? Fine work, now start using the same username everywhere :p :D
     
  10. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    Retail version of the card now :

    The spam is strong right now :D
     
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  11. pcgeekesq

    pcgeekesq [H]ard|Gawd

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    It points to my post, but I am not currently posting anything on Reddit.
     
  12. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    Yeah, someone accused me of falsely claiming to be a lawyer and essentially threatened to sue, so I replied by threatening to sue over defamation because of falsely claiming that I claimed to be a lawyer xD lol. The internet.
     
  13. pcgeekesq

    pcgeekesq [H]ard|Gawd

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    I agree, being falsely accused of being a lawyer is probably defamation per se in some states.

    No, not really, but maybe it should be.
     
  14. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    Meh, I don't have a clue frankly :) I don't have a clue about business and stock trading either frankly, and I have people replying asking if they should dump stock, or put it on "stop loss" lol. It is both amusing and immensely terrifying for me to think that my actions on a fucking reddit thread can affect the value of 2 bn dollars company. It's crazy to me : D the world has gone mad
     
  15. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is important to highlight because Roy was saying that the power readings across multiple reviewers were aberrant. Hardware.fr purchased an RX 480 off the shelf and got the same results. I hope [H] does the same.
     
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  16. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

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    When you overclock you put things out of spec and that is the risk you take. Overclock a 290x and watch the power draw, let alone trying for crossfire. If the power draw is indeed a issue for the pci slot in the motherboard I am sure they will fix it in a driver release, but for now I dont think it's a huge issue unless you are planning to run overclocked and I just dont see that being a big thing for these cards, this is the average consumer video card and likely will never be overclocked.
     
  17. Stereodude

    Stereodude 2[H]4U

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    Watergate wasn't a scandal about water. Therefore, this should not be called Powergate. :cautious:
     
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  18. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    It is happening with cards at stock. Even small amounts of overclocking are making the issue worse.
     
  19. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    AMD Robert took the time to reply and tell me I am "disseminating false information" but he never followed up D : He said 110W is just the GPU, whole board is 150W, almost as if all the results saying 170W were actually a figment of my imagination lol ! Robert Hallock and his little mind games ;)
     
  20. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    lol but the funny thing is though you are usually one of those that say card can easily use more power from PCI-E slot, 75w is not a hard limit and alot of cards do it. So this card did it and it sucks but whats changed I thought you were all cool with it and it was a normal thing for cards to pull more power from PCI-E.

    they did get it certified so they will just shift the blame to where it needs to go and plug it with driver update. Thats all, I know you want this card to fail hard but I highly doubt people will let it stop them for buying a cheap card because I can pretty much bet there is alot of cards do it. I wonder how the 290s and 290x did. I guess they didn't use to be so high tech with these power tools lol.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  21. Cr4ckm0nk3y

    Cr4ckm0nk3y Gawd

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    ROFL @ AMD if true! Guess they potentially got the 3.5GB fiasco this go round.


    lol - that is typical AMD PR. Hit and run style. ;)

    I think Huddy should start to weigh in again! I miss that guy!
     
  22. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    Nah I said drawing more than 75 from 6pin is no big deal. Drawing 86W average from PCI-slot is a big deal
     
  23. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    Polarisgate?
     
  24. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    GTX 480 V2: the electric boggalloo
     
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  25. razor1

    razor1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    yep
    Something like that will cause system in stability because the motherboard is expecting a certain amount of power to go to the pci-e, if the pci-e is using more, that gives less for other components.
     
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  26. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    + potential for interference in audio circuitry, and potential for traces to melt in crossfire

    mmm, melting traces
     
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  27. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Damn bro you really got too much time on your hands you did all that at reditt? fuck, thats a lot of work. I just ordered my system and I holding off for the aftermarket cards and I still might end up getting 1070, but dont know I am sucker for used video cards and great deals.

    But wait you are the same screen name that you said you weren't? You said that was your 15 year old cousins or nephew or something. Why hide lol.
     
  28. Sheppard

    Sheppard [H]ard|Gawd

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    Man, rx480 sells out everywhere on day with huge initial supplies and guys are digging in the weeds to find problems.
    Until it IS a problem, stop trying to manufacture them.
     
  29. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    I'm not hiding at all :) It is my cousin's, mine was called ieldra,and I deleted it precisely because I was spammed lol. This account will go the same way
    Doesn't take much time to update OP every now and then, too many messages to read though >_> ignore 99%

    Cousin helps, does the sourcing and finds power data for comparisons : D
     
  30. Riouken

    Riouken Limp Gawd

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    Did you just remove your post on reddit or did the moderators remove it?
     
  31. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    Ha, wow I hope someone has a copy of that post.
     
  32. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    It is a problem, that's why multiple reviews pointed it out.
     
  33. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    It hasn't been removed, apparently it has but still shows for me. Dumping here as a backeup

    I accidentally removed the "REPLY INSIDE" flair, put it back

    From forum post

    AMD Radeon RX 480 Video Card Review @ [H]

    "With Tom's Hardware reporting that the RX 480 draws (substantailly) more than the 75W allowed from the motherboard (for example, the PCI Express high-power card spec allows a mazimum of 66W to be drawn from the 12V pins of the PCI Express slot, and the RX 480 averages79W from the 12V lines alone) AMD seems to be violating the PCI Express(R) spec.

    According to the licensing contract for the spec, if they do not fix this within 3 months, AMD will NOT be able to call the card a PCI Express card. If they do, they face not only litigation, but if my understanding is correct an action before the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) to ban the importation of the card as counterfeit goods. You might think the PCI-SIG will give AMD a pass, but if they do, they risk loosing the trademark entirely. An unforced trademark gets invalidated. The SIG won't let that happen.

    So what does this mean to the consumer? I think there are two possibilities, if we assume AMD will not choose to remove the PCI Express logos from these cards: Either they will alter the boards to have an 8-pin socket and to more power from there, or they will neuter the card to ensure it doesn't draw more power than the PCI Express specification allows. I don't see any other options.

    Disclaimer: I am an attorney, but I practice patent law, not trademark law. This post does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship".

    It could damage low end motherboards, and since this will go in many oem systems, it could become a problem

    From Tom's Hardware

    We skipped long-term overclocking and overvolting tests, since the Radeon RX 480’s power consumption through the PCIe slot jumped to an average of 100W, peaking at 200W. We just didn’t want to do that to our test platform

    UPDATE
    HERE IS THE LINK TO DETAILED PER RAIL POWER TESTING

    http://media.bestofmicro.com/A/N/591359/original/18-Gaming-Bars.png

    Here is another power measurement (also at the rails) for OC @ 1310 mhz

    http://www.pcper.com/files/review/2016-06-28/poweroc-rise.png

    http://www.pcper.com/files/review/2016-06-28/poweroc-witcher3.png

    UPDATE2
    AMD Robert asks that I stop disseminating this as fact, I distinctly remember 150W from the 480 announcement. Even if 150w is the whole board and the GPU is 110w, we have several measurements showing 165w-170w

    I just want to point out amd Robert says this is wrong, but I won't remove it :

    In response to some replies I have gotten, talking about power usage in general here. Previously AMD claimed 150W, TODAY they made it 110W

    If it passed internal testing, then something is wrong with their internal testing procedures, on top of this, the damned card consumes 165W average and TODAY they changed the spec from 150w to 110w. If that isn't intentionally deceiving I don't know what is

    Update3
    AMD Robert has replied:



    I am not confused, the TDP was claimed to be 150w initially, if the gpu is 110w, then memory + board losses amount to 50-60w?

    This card consistently draws more than 150w, this has been verified by pcper, Tom's Hardware, techpowerup... What are the odds of three major review websites all getting a one-in-a-mkllion unlucky sample that hits 165w at stock?

    UPDATE4
    I'm seeing many people exaggerating the consequences of this, and I see many people underplaying them.

    If just ONE 480 can kill a mobo then what's going to happen to the suckers that got TWO of them for crossfire? I expect motherboard genocide.

    It's not going to kill your motherboard, but it's going to draw more than specified maximum through it. 75w is the max, 80 has been reported as a gaming average, now thats no big deal. But when you OC that can reach 100w average, and on cheap low end motherboards, it's honestly a risky situation.

    UPDATE 5
    Hate to break this to some of you folks, but the world is not out to get AMD. I am not making up numbers, I'm not hiding behind Tom's Hardware's numbers... here are the links to the relevant reviews, stop being ridiculous some of you. The power consumption is significantly higher than claimed.

    AMD Radeon RX 480 8GB Power Consumption Results

    The AMD Radeon RX 480 Review - The Polaris Promise | PC Perspective Advanced Power Testing

    AMD Radeon RX 480 8 GB Review

    Do you really think it's likely that by coincidence all three of these major review sites got a dud that consumed 165w and OCd ~5% with 200W average consumption ?
    Tom's Hardware on why they didn't do more indepth OC testing:

    We skipped long-term overclocking and overvolting tests, since the Radeon RX 480’s power consumption through the PCIe slot jumped to an average of 100W, peaking at 200W. We just didn’t want to do that to our test platform
    UPDATE 6

    RX480 82w average from PCI-E slot AMD Radeon RX 480 8GB Power Consumption Results

    MSI R9 290x Lightning 32w average from PCI-E slot Power Draw: Test System And Methods - MSI R9 290X Lightning Review: The Right Way To Cool Hawaii

    Sapphire R 380X Nitro 48w average from PCI-E slot AMD Radeon R9 380X Nitro Power Usage - Tom's Hardware

    Update 7
    Some users' aversion to hard truth is just astounding

    The fact you are up in arms over POWER MEASUREMENTS TAKEN AT THE RAILS says it all.

    Update 8
    Adding the post by AMD Roberts to quell anger over my "hiding it". I posted the link to it in update 3

    Response from AMD:
    1) The RX 480 meets the bar for PCIe compliance testing with PCI-SIG. //edit: and interop with PCI Express. This is not just our internal testing. I think that should be made very clear. Obviously there are a few GPUs exhibiting anomalous behavior, and we've been in touch with these reviewers for a few days to better understand their test configurations to see how this could be possible.

    2) Update #2 made by the OP is confused. There is a difference between ASIC power, which is what ONLY THE GPU CONSUMES (110W), and total graphics power (TGP), which is what the entire graphics card uses (150W). There has been no change in the spec, so I would ask that incorrect information stop being disseminated as "fact."

    We will have more on this topic soon as we investigate, but it's worth reminding people that only a very small number of hundreds of RX 480 reviews worldwide encountered this issue. Clearly that makes it aberrant, rather than the rule, and we're working to get that number down to zero.

    UPDATE 9
    /u/octra THANK YOU

    A german website, golem.de, also confirms this:

    http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/1606/Radeon-RX-480-Test/thumb620/Test-Radeon-RX-480-34.png http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/1606/Radeon-RX-480-Test/thumb620/Test-Radeon-RX-480-35.png

    You want to sum the "Motherboard 12v" and 3,3V values to get the total avg draw from the PCI-E slot.

    Link to full article:

    Trotz 14LPP nicht sparsam - Radeon RX 480 im Test: Eine bessere Grafikkarte gibt es für den Preis nicht - Golem.de

    UPDATE 10 (MILESTONE!) - RETAIL CARD
    Hardware.fr confirms this too. They also have a retail version (Sapphire 480) which exhibits the same problem. They also confirms the power usage going over 150W with both a review and retail version of the card.

    They added also something interesting, they removed power and temperature limits and tested the card with no OC. The card pulled almost 200W in Witcher 3.

    Source: Consommation, efficacité énergétique - AMD Radeon RX 480 8 Go : 14nm et Polaris en test - HardWare.fr

    Relevant parts:

    Rappelons, comme expliqué dans le descriptif de la carte de référence, que la RX 480 n'est équipée que d'un seul connecteur d'alimentation 6 broches, ce qui fait qu'il tire une grosse partie de sa consommation, à peu près la moitié, parfois un peu plus, du bus PCI Express. Elle va à ce niveau bien au-delà de la spécification qui est de 5.5A. Dans Battlefield 4, nous mesurons 6.92A par défaut et 7.10A en 'Uber'. Une valeur qui monte à 7.79A dans The Witcher 3 et qui impose un stress pour lequel toutes les cartes-mères ne sont pas prévues.

    "RX 480 comes with a 6 pins PCIE and most of the power drain is shared between the 6 pins and the PCI Express port (sometime more on the latter). The cards does go way over the specs which is 5.5A. In Battlefield 4, we are getting 6.92A and 7.10A with OC (called "Uber" mode in the review). Witcher 3 goes even higher with 7.79A. This stress is not expected on all motherboards."

    Credit to /u/aen0

    Update 11
    I DO NOT KNOW THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS CLAIM, THIS IS FROM THE FRENCH WEBSITE LINKED IN UPDATE 10

    "Non un bios ou des pilotes ne peuvent pas règler le problème de surconso via le bus. Il faut une modification du PCB pour ça. C'est toujours possible de réduire la limite de conso ASIC (110W par défaut) mais alors ça va réduire les performances. "

    Translation: No, Bios or drivers cannot solve the over power draw from the BUS. You need a PCB change for that. It is always possible to lower the ASIC (110w here) but it will lower performance.

    /u/Maxcuatro thank you
     
  34. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    Umm...
     
  35. Riouken

    Riouken Limp Gawd

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    Everyone is posting that it has been deleted, it shows removed for me in the tab I have open and it is not longer on the amd reddit front page. I think they are censoring you lol
     
  36. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Bro! People must prove AMD wrong! Trust me AMD will be like well our card is certified. Bla, Bla Bla and the more bla. Then after market cards will be out in 2 weeks and then focus will shift.
     
  37. Ieldra

    Ieldra I Promise to RTFM

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    Kyle should be so proud :D
     
  38. Riouken

    Riouken Limp Gawd

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    lol I think you struck a nerve.
     
  39. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    The world has been mad for a very, very long time.
     
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  40. trandoanhung1991

    trandoanhung1991 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, FWIW my GTX 970's BIOS is designed to take up to 79.5W from the PCI rails, but defaults at 66W. I wonder if AMD's Polaris BIOS will have that kind of fine-tuning.