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AMD duped by ATI?

Did you even bother reading the article before making your ridiculous post? Their revenues were down because of the loss of sales of integrated chips on the Intel platform and that was expected. It just happened sooner than they thought it would but that doesn't mean both AMD/ATi weren't already aware of this since this outcome was all but inevitable with the two merging.
 
Their revenues were down because of the loss of sales of integrated chips on the Intel platform and that was expected
Click to expand...
Lol don't be so clueless. Of COURSE they would say it was 'expected', it certainly wasn't to the analysts.
 
i dont think they paid too much, ati is a great company!! i bet because of there experience with xbox360, there next generation dx10 cards will be real good. they've already have a bit of experience with it(dx10), because the 360 is based on it.
 
arcturus said:
Lol don't be so clueless. Of COURSE they would say it was 'expected', it certainly wasn't to the analysts.
Click to expand...

Don't you think the analysts realized after a merger, Intel wasn't going to want ATi (aka their competitor's graphics division) putting integrated graphics on Intel motherboards ?
They may have been too optimistic on how quickly and the degree to which revenue would fall, but they DID expect it. :cool:
 
You really think that AMD would spend 4.2 billion dollars and not look DEEPLY into how ati's money situation is going? they hire outside independant consultants to check the books and figure out how profitable the buy out would be . :rolleyes:
 
Uh huh and the name of that black hole of a flash memory company AMD finally
DUMPED that all those expensive consultants were once so high on?
 
Dont you think that would have taught them something during the ATI merger?? Or do you think AMD is in the habit of dumping money down a well. :rolleyes:
 
New game, new rules. This time it's a vid card company. Personally I think AMD
is well intentioned but misguided in believing this to be a win-win scenario.
They're placing their bets on tech once again ... understandable, that's what
they know. However we also know tech can bite you in the ass.

I would of liked them to buy something completely different, out of the tech realm, for
diversification. Maybe beer :), consumer products, whatever. Buy a company with a
proven track record and don't meddle.

We'll see how this plays out. Pegging this thread for a 1 year return visit.
 
Sounds good i would like to see the out come but i feel pretty confindent its good deal.
 
The purchase of ATi gives AMD something that allowed Intel to surge forward for a long time: complete control of their own platform. AMD has had to deal with quite a few platform issues (from the NForce 3 150 and earlier), but now they'll have AMD chipsets running AMD processors with AMD integrated graphics or AMD videocards, guaranteeing stability and speed.

That will do nothing but help their situation in maintaining a stable and fast platform for their products. AMD will obviously be struggling with their financial situation for a little while longer as they wait for R600 and its derivatives as well as Barcelona and its derivatives to hit the market, but in the long run this will work out for the better.
 
arcturus said:
(over 7 months later ...)

"The execution of the ATI merger was just sort of a disaster," said Doug Freedman, an analyst with American Technology Research, adding: "The guys who wrote the debt saw this coming."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newIssuesNews/idUSN2044289220070420?pageNumber=1

Confirms my original misgivings.
Click to expand...
Corporate america does not work like you want to believe it does... With the acquisition of a company like this happens there are alot of things to factor in. There are 2 main things your getting very wrong here.

A) They pay huge amounts for multiple independent experts to analyze the company they are looking at acquiring, so saying ATI duped AMD just shows how little you really know about these things.

B) AMD did not buy ATI to boost thier sales for the year. where your looking at it with such tunnel vision they are looking at the big picture companies dont invest billions and throw themselves into debt to bring up quarterly or yearly figures they do it as a long term investment. So revisiting this after 7 months is stupid... Revisit this in a year or 2 and see.

What AMD did is strengthen thier company and ensure its success for many years to come of course now there will be financial difficulties that is to be expected but when the years go on and they continue to grow because of this deal they will be a much richer company.
 
arcturus said:
'Canadian computer graphics chip maker ATI Technologies Inc. said Wednesday its fiscal fourth-quarter sales will likely total about $520 million, far below the low end of its previous outlook.'

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060906/ati_technologies_outlook.html?.v=1

Hmm, you figure AMD is now thinking it paid too much for ATI? This better not have been a suprise to them.
Click to expand...


The problems AMD is having now doesn't directly corrolate with ATi's business. ATi gained marketshare last quarter by dropping margins, this is good for the ATi division, although they didn't make as much money as normally they do, by garning marketshare they can quickly expand margins if the r600 is a good competative product to some degree (being one quarter late they can't expect the same margins nV is getting thus the $400 XT rumor).

AMD's main problem is their CPU division which is taking a beating by Intel, in some of the server markets and retail, not to mention probably OEM as well. AMD's bread maker is loosing money, and loosing marketshare, not a very good sign I agree, but this has nothing to do with ATi but the buyout of ATi did put AMD in a bad situation of a large debt which they can't recoup quickly because of the way things are in the CPU market (and it does look like they will go into further debt even with the first quarter that barcelona hits possible even 2 quarters, maybe more depending on Penryn). AMD's cash shortages has a direct relation with the buyout but not what is happening right now with AMD.
 
I ran an AMD 750 chipset when the first Athlon shipped. Having an AMD cpu/chipset and gpu will be cool. :cool:
 
AMD can ill afford to cash burn any worse than the hemorraging already taking place in part thanks to the ATI debt burden and ever-falling margins. They're running out of time and short of some white knight with a buttload of cash their continued scorched earth strategy against Intel (which makes no freak'n sense) will take ATI down too.

Most of you guys know more than the 'experts' ... you give them too much credit. The big difference is they're at some S Pacific beach sipping Maragaritas bought and paid for by the majority ATI shareholders toasting their good fortune for getting out when they did.
 
There is no problem on the ATi side, as long as AMD is able to keep the marketshare ATi has gotten around 50% possible a bit lower that division will do just fine once the r600 comes out, hopefully, just has to be the right price and right performance.

The scorched earth tactic, AMD has to do it. Intel did it with Pentium 4 and D, but they are a bigger company they can take a pertty big hit and recover very fast. It would be worse if AMD just let Intel come down with a hammer at least this way they won't loose too much marketshare by the time Barcelona hits. AMD has been in worse situations on brink of bankrupcy and came back strong. As long as AMD can balance out the techonolgy and performance in the CPU segement it will be fine, if they can out do Intel, even better.
 
quadnad said:
The purchase of ATi gives AMD something that allowed Intel to surge forward for a long time: complete control of their own platform. AMD has had to deal with quite a few platform issues (from the NForce 3 150 and earlier), but now they'll have AMD chipsets running AMD processors with AMD integrated graphics or AMD videocards, guaranteeing stability and speed.

That will do nothing but help their situation in maintaining a stable and fast platform for their products. AMD will obviously be struggling with their financial situation for a little while longer as they wait for R600 and its derivatives as well as Barcelona and its derivatives to hit the market, but in the long run this will work out for the better.
Click to expand...

Theres nothing about products all coming from 1 manufacturer that makes it any more stable than components from different manufacturers. That's somewhat of a fallacy. Especially considering many times different product lines in 1 company are developed by completely separate groups.
 
Godmachine said:
Dont you think that would have taught them something during the ATI merger?? Or do you think AMD is in the habit of dumping money down a well. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

why do some ppl insist that corporations are always PERFECT in their decision making? Companies are made and broken in their deals (Cyrix, 3dFx, etc.)..and If analysts were ALWAYS correct in their predictions..... they'd all be billionaires from their investments, right?

corporations are not run by machines... they are run by humans.. and they can and do make mistakes. from the the looks of AMD's current financial situation... it looks like this will go down as a mistake
 
they do it as a long term investment. So revisiting this after 7 months is stupid... Revisit this in a year or 2 and see.
Click to expand...

QFHMFDSBBQT

BILLION dollar companies don't make BILLION dollar mistakes.
 
Trimlock said:
windows XP was in a far worse state then Vista is now and look how that came out? poor example
Click to expand...

Um, no!
Do you have any proof (links) to back that up? I don't recall Dell going back to Win2k after XP was released in 4th quarter 2001. I don't recall 244 copies of XP sold in China. I don't recall organizations and nations refusing to use XP as it didn't have any "Must Have features". I don't recall Mac commercials poking fun at Vista. So if you have any proof of your blanket statement with some sources to reference I will be more then happy to read them.
 
Trimlock said:
windows XP was in a far worse state then Vista is now and look how that came out? poor example
Click to expand...

as was said above... XP was still preferable to any Win 9x version. Also Vista cost way more to produce than XP
 
those weren't mistakes those were fraud. Very purposefully done to line their pockets and when the market crashed, they went down with it.
 
Eastcoasthandle said:
Um, no!
Do you have any proof (links) to back that up? I don't recall Dell going back to Win2k after XP was released in 4th quarter 2001. I don't recall 244 copies of XP sold in China. I don't recall organizations and nations refusing to use XP as it didn't have any "Must Have features". I don't recall Mac commercials poking fun at Vista. So if you have any proof of your blanket statement with some sources to reference I will be more then happy to read them.
Click to expand...

Everything you said is BS.

A. Win2k was NOT a mainstream desktop OS and PC's where rarely shipped with it to begin with. So why would they go back to something they didnt use to begin with? All they had to fall back on was ME or 98 and obviously ME made XP look pretty good.

B. The whole 244 copies sold has been debunked it is not true.

C. What nations refuse to use vista? I have heard nothing of this and a google search brought up jack shit. Organizations always refuse to use the new OS then eventually do the same shit was happening to XP when it was released

D. Mac commercials is your last point? Please tell me your not serious...

And i agree with Trimlock, XP was in much worse shape when it was released than vista is.

I really wish people would search around and look before they bash so they at least sound original. all the vista bashers are saying the exact same shit as the XP bashers where back then.
 
villain71 said:
Imagine if Intel buys nvidia if that's possible. :D
Click to expand...

Intel wouldn't do that... Things will actually start looking grim for nVidia in the coming years too. Considering Intel has created it's own division for discrete graphics, as well as bettering their embedded graphics as well, so they wouldn't need nVidia. If anything they could potentially push them under. Granted Intel has given money to nVidia to help them compete with ATi, I doubt they would acquire them.

If you look at Intel they have the whole package, for their platforms that is, (CPUs, Chipsets, Video, etc), and now so does AMD/ATi, so this leaves nVidia out in the cold...

What will happen... who knows.

Plus I'm not sure how some of you guys got on Vista... but I'm rather impressed with it. Vista is fantastic, it's the compatibility that isn't there yet, and people are boo-hooing about it... it will just take time to be accepted. It works wonderfully for basic stuff, and with all the new DX10 APIs, things are going to freaking rock down the road!

I can't wait.

-Eric
 
Love that [H] is bursting with Harvard MBA's--who knew?:eek:

Whether or not the ATi acquisition was adequately considered or included any hidden hanky-panky, AMD is in a precarious financial position right now and the ATi debt load has contributed to that reality.

I hope they prosper, but they are running out of time. It doesn't matter how great their products are, how great their ideas are, or how great their track record is--if their cash flow doesn't sustain their debt servicing requirements and a creditor calls in the note, it's over.

If they have to scrap long-term upgrades in manufacturing and product development to maintain the cash to prevent that from happening, they become irrelevant and it's as good as over, just not right away. What if, for example, Barcelona is far enough along that they can limp it out the door with their existing capacity, but to remain solvent they never lay the foundation for the generation after that? Intel's tick-tock strategy, Penryn, and the next, and the next, will bury them.

Again, hope they turn the corner, but they are in deep right now and they had better start executing or they are hosed. Answering the Core architecture with AM2 was no answer at all. The delays in ATi's products have only made things worse, and now the R6xx's had better be world-beaters or that division is hosed too.

All this to say, there is obvious reason for concern, so no reason to bash the OP's basic point.
 
Commander Suzdal said:
Whether or not the ATi acquisition was adequately considered or included any hidden hanky-panky, AMD is in a precarious financial position right now and the ATi debt load has contributed to that reality.
Click to expand...

True

I hope they prosper, but they are running out of time. It doesn't matter how great their products are, how great their ideas are, or how great their track record is--if their cash flow doesn't sustain their debt servicing requirements and a creditor calls in the note, it's over.
Click to expand...

They aren't apt to call in the note quickly, creditors aren't stupid without the corporations, they don't make money too.

If they have to scrap long-term upgrades in manufacturing and product development to maintain the cash to prevent that from happening, they become irrelevant and it's as good as over, just not right away. What if, for example, Barcelona is far enough along that they can limp it out the door with their existing capacity, but to remain solvent they never lay the foundation for the generation after that? Intel's tick-tock strategy, Penryn, and the next, and the next, will bury them.
Click to expand...

R&D and progressive manufacturing for long term goals are the last place where cuts will happen, so don't need to worry about this yet. First thing would be to down size middle management and redudent work forces in management and PR.


Again, hope they turn the corner, but they are in deep right now and they had better start executing or they are hosed. Answering the Core architecture with AM2 was no answer at all. The delays in ATi's products have only made things worse, and now the R6xx's had better be world-beaters or that division is hosed too.
Click to expand...

ATi's products are doing fine, thats why they gained marketshare last quarter, of course profits were less but thats ok.

All this to say, there is obvious reason for concern, so no reason to bash the OP's basic point.
Click to expand...

True, he just didn't really organize what he was thinking very well.
 
That's ok, whether it was expressed in organized fashion or not, recent developments pretty much justify
my concerns aired months ago ... unfortunately.

What's surprising is how quickly the whole AMD situation has deteriorated.

What isn't surprising is how wrong those 'experts' really were.

AMD is in the fight of its life, and so with it ATI.
 
No, but $BILLION$ companies do make $TRILLION$ mistakes....

1978, IBM Bocha meets with Bill Gates, hires him to supply OS for secret IBM PC.... lets LaughingBoy keep the rights to the OS.... POOF never thought you'd see a $TRILLION$ go out the window in a flash did ya?
 
osalcido said:
.... Also Vista cost way more to produce than XP
Click to expand...

actually, I'd like to know the development costs between the two, I'm sure that Vista did cost more, but which OS didn't cost more? I'm also interested to know if the cost difference is really big enough to be that much of a hinderance to the future profits of the OS.

also don't forget that vista is a platform that MS will be using to build upon for future OS generations, such as they did with their original win95.
 
Hmm... sounds like a lot of AMD f-a-nboys out here who seem completely blinded by the devestating financial issue AMD is in right now. They're in need of money, and ATi took quite a bit of that money away. Plus, I don't think AMD expected intel to gain back so much of the market so quickly. In a single quarter, AMD lost 600 million dollars and came in 300 million dollars less than intel in terms of revenue. Not to mention the price war which is going on right now. AMD really can't afford to do all of it and still survive. That, and some analysts also say that AMD needs about a billion dollars to catch up to Intel in terms of technology. I'm not saying I'm an expert on this, but it's pretty prevalent that AMD is in a screwed position now. A lot of people are saying they're in a worse position now than they were in 2001. They lost 6 - 8 percent of their marketshare in Q1. If you think AMD's going to easily bounce out of it, you're clearly blind.
 
pfunkman said:
B) AMD did not buy ATI to boost thier sales for the year. where your looking at it with such tunnel vision they are looking at the big picture companies dont invest billions and throw themselves into debt to bring up quarterly or yearly figures they do it as a long term investment. So revisiting this after 7 months is stupid... Revisit this in a year or 2 and see.

What AMD did is strengthen thier company and ensure its success for many years to come of course now there will be financial difficulties that is to be expected but when the years go on and they continue to grow because of this deal they will be a much richer company.
Click to expand...


..
Very true..Much the same way Verizon is rolling out FIOS.....its a big loser for them upfront....it cost them quite a bit of money to hook up a house, yet the install is usually free.....
This will pay off for them years down the road.....but today, its a big loss for them.....
Such is the way of building for the future....
 
razor1 said:
R&D and progressive manufacturing for long term goals are the last place where cuts will happen, so don't need to worry about this yet. First thing would be to down size middle management and redudent work forces in management and PR.
Click to expand...

My comment on that area was based on the linked article, in which it stated that AMD has trimmed its budget for manufacturing upgrades by $500 million, or roughly 25%. I would expect them to trim that further if their cash flow doesn't improve, just to make sure they can service their obligations. It isn't down to zero yet, but reducing your expenditures on better future products when you're in the fight of your life against a much larger, richer company that has already recaptured the upper hand is definitely not a good sign.
 
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