AMD Crossfire a scam - Almost no benefit over single card

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solidnickel said:
Its funny how you say AMD fanboys like to bash Nvidia engineers when a lot of AMD engineers recently jumped ship to Nvidia and took some data with them :eek:
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Fan boys bashing the other side's engineers has been happening for years.
AMD has problems? AMD fan boys are silent.
nVidia has problems? nVidia fan boys are silent.
 
I never really thought there was an intentional campaign against AMD - potentially initiated by nVidia - until I saw these two threads side by side on this forum:

"AMD Crossfire a scam - Almost no benefit over single card"

"AMD should be held responsible to CF owners who bought cards based on reviews."

Thank you, nVidia, now I know to take any AMD bashing worth a grain of salt and use only my own personal experience.
 
That's_Corporate said:
I never really thought there was an intentional campaign against AMD - potentially initiated by nVidia - until I saw these two threads side by side on this forum:

"AMD Crossfire a scam - Almost no benefit over single card"

"AMD should be held responsible to CF owners who bought cards based on reviews."
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I would disregard the "scam" portion and focus on the issues. These arguments have been going on for a long time. AMD recently spoke to Anandtech about stuttering and AMD admitted to never doing competitive analysis for stuttering. Oops.
 
KENNYB said:
I would disregard the "scam" portion and focus on the issues. These arguments have been going on for a long time. AMD recently spoke to Anandtech about stuttering and AMD admitted to never doing competitive analysis for stuttering. Oops.
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They should of admitted to it a while ago, but I agree with him. These two threads are clearly baited with the intention of blowing things out of proportion.
 
I like how most of you didn't read the article and are calling bull.

Seems legit to me: Fraps record how many fraps it show on screen, frame time show long the frame stay on the screen. The problem is that fps on fraps aren't a real measurement of how smooth it is because of a runt frames. A runt frames is a frame that is so slim it doesn't help at all (very few pixel/ also cause a tearing)

AMD crossfire do it so that you get many many runts and frame drop so the experience ins't showcased in a more smooth experience even if the frame rate is very high when nvidia have it way better. It's been like this for years yet no one talked about it, Nowadays AMD fanboys are "nah my experience is fine" and basically say it's nothing but it's clearly a big problem and AMD is hard at work to fix it since it's now unveiled to the public and I find it frustrating that they had it for years.
 
240hz would probably eliminate the programming errors in parallel GPU's for now.
 
I don't know if this has been asked so forgive me it's redux...

Can the issue be fixed? Is it a driver issue or a fundamental hardware/architecture issue?
 
That's_Corporate said:
I never really thought there was an intentional campaign against AMD - potentially initiated by nVidia - until I saw these two threads side by side on this forum:

"AMD Crossfire a scam - Almost no benefit over single card"

"AMD should be held responsible to CF owners who bought cards based on reviews."

Thank you, nVidia, now I know to take any AMD bashing worth a grain of salt and use only my own personal experience.
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it should come as no surprise to anyone that 2 threads with provocative titles are seeing a lot of activity and as such, are both at the top of the thread list .

If your looking to bash Nvidia, you may be able to get a few licks in here :p
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1754005
 
Ive said this before and ill say it again...i tried xfire with 6950s over 2 years ago...the higher FPS i expected was there...but gameplay was just not as smooth and fluid as it was with 1 card. Second 6950 was sold probably 2 weeks after i bought it. Never looked back.
 
Meh, the article can say what it wants. It may even be right. However, I know for a fact, that in pretty much every game I play, I can raise the settings over a single AMD card, when using two of the same AMD card. So, that means it works, it is better than single card, and the OP's contentions are at best partial truths. It could just be because I generally wait on games to hit the sub $20 mark b4 I buy them. Which gives the game dev and/or AMD time to patch. Don't know for sure, but I do know it works.
 
Meh, I have xfire currently and it is much faster than with 1 card. I came from an SLI setup that was also much faster than 1 card.
 
Syphon Filter said:
Can the issue be fixed? Is it a driver issue or a fundamental hardware/architecture issue?
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Fundamentally, syncing between GPUs is something which should be handled primarily by hardware logic for optimal performance. How well this could be resolved in driver only will depend on how forward thinking AMD was when designing the programmable parts of their hardware, or if they are now stuck with only blind software driver pre-processing of frame input for hardware which knows nothing about multi-GPU sync. AMD has stated plans to release a driver in July which supports multi-GPU frame metering, but only as an optional toggle, since it will reduce avg fps as measured by software benchmarks while improving fps and subjective smoothness as measured by FCAT to unknown degrees.

GPU reviews are just going to get more murky for awhile, as reviewers attempt to subjectively define the average person's sensitively to smoothness through objective performance data measured by FCAT. The main problem arises that until you've actually experienced a perfectly smooth setup for side-by-side comparison, it can become difficult to realize what the problem is. Though once you really have experienced true smoothness, it can become addicting to the point where even minor stutters can become a bother. This almost falls under the ignorance-is-bliss category, where people unable to see the problem as it exists are the lucky ones, ala The Matrix
 
So you are saying hardware should fix control of page swapping?

You are wrong.
 
Is it AMD or nVidia who is trying Jedi mind tricks? Is it AMD who's telling us it's faster so we perceive it that way? Or, is it nVidia attempting to tell us that it's not faster so we'll perceive it their way? Someone is yanking our chains and it seems sites are too PC to lay it all out for us.

PCPer teaming up with nVidia and keeping it from us stinks to high heaven. AT sure seemed to be choosing their words very carefully, for some reason.
 
iasforum, [F]anboy forum, or pinforum would all be better names for this site. It's pretty funny watching all these nVidia sycophants grasp at straws in order to justify spending more $ for equal performance.
 
NukeDukem said:
iasforum, [F]anboy forum, or pinforum would all be better names for this site. It's pretty funny watching all these nVidia sycophants grasp at straws in order to justify spending more $ for equal performance.
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Looks at sig, ah I see. :cool:

All jokes aside, I've owned cards from both sides and had minimal problems from either camp. I just prefer Nvidia for multi-gpu though.
 
One thing is clear, the nVidia brand management department has done an admirable job when they have their customers comparing their video cards to luxury automobiles! ;)
 
mmmm hardware that would mean something like the infamous SLI chip baked onto motherboards, then you have the problem of Nvidia sitting on their ass for a long time in older process nodes making a hot, power hungry chip that of course is proprietary (like PhysX still is) and even then has boat loads of other issues by using for example IRQ that belong to other parts, being limited on what it can do cause Nvidia by and large only care about something when there is MAJOR problems to be had or they have a chance to make themselves look all important at someone else`s expense, or you could have a 3rd party try to offer this e.g lucid, and well no one really wants to help them so they also have quite a few issues.

No matter how many years the cards have been out there is and will be problems with scaling/support etc as well, nothing is perfect, if you are using multiple gpu to "crunch" like medical imaging and such that is far different then currently done for visuals being AFR for the most part you have to lose frames and make it appear smooth or have one card running slightly slower on purpose, and of course the bridges they currently use do not help matters the cards are getting so brutal fast and yet the card to card communications are not seeming to.

Interesting stuff really, Nvidia and their customers can toot their horns all they want but they also have a lot of different issues, even if more games scale with multi-card, not all do...I would prefer devs optimize games to get the most out of standard hardware then eccentric configs, maybe by making the coding more effective, we can see better scaling even if the individual or company(Nvidia AMD) have to do the flags through drivers themselves.
 
I build PCs for a living: Nvidia GPUs are smoother in general, but AMD's stuttering is randomly more apparent on some systems versus others: I could build two identical machines and install tge same version of windows on both, and when I run Unigine, one will be stuttery, the other won't. There is no rhyme or reason.
 
NukeDukem said:
iasforum, [F]anboy forum, or pinforum would all be better names for this site. It's pretty funny watching all these nVidia sycophants grasp at straws in order to justify spending more $ for equal performance.
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Yeah, ugh huh :rolleyes:
Every site has fan boys. Wait until the next time nVidia uses wooden screws.
 
My 6950 X-Fire definitely seemed more sporadic than the 660 SLI I currently use.
 
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NukeDukem said:
iasforum, [F]anboy forum, or pinforum would all be better names for this site. It's pretty funny watching all these nVidia sycophants grasp at straws in order to justify spending more $ for equal performance.
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Experience > Performance

That's what I pay extra for.
 
I don't crossfire, so that's probably why it doesn't affect me. I have one 7950(1150/1500) and don't see any of the problems mentioned. I'm gaming on a 30 inch 2560 x 1600 monitor.
 
This whole campaign, which surprise-surprise coincided with the release of Titan, is merely a response to crossfired 7950's being faster than a titan for $600. Now, when people say. "7950 crossfire for ~$600 is faster" there's a retort about runt frames, cheating, etc...

Anyone who's involved with marketing should be taking notes.
 
Relayer said:
This whole campaign, which surprise-surprise coincided with the release of Titan, is merely a response to crossfired 7950's being faster than a titan for $600. Now, when people say. "7950 crossfire for ~$600 is faster" there's a retort about runt frames, cheating, etc...

Anyone who's involved with marketing should be taking notes.
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So its just Nvidia that notices or states these runt frames hey? You mean [H] and other sites never had this before but just worded it differently?
 
Syphon Filter said:
I don't know if this has been asked so forgive me it's redux...

Can the issue be fixed? Is it a driver issue or a fundamental hardware/architecture issue?
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They talked a bit about this on the PCper podcast last week. AMD has stated that they are working on a solution but it will likely be the summer before it comes.
 
Ryokurin said:
They talked a bit about this on the PCper podcast last week. AMD has stated that they are working on a solution but it will likely be the summer before it comes.
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Interesting read ....this would lead me to believe this was done intentionally, there is no way no one at AMD did not catch this.

Also ....to the poster who said this was simply a smear campaign because Cross fired 7950's are faster than a Titan @ $600......worst argument ever. The Titan as stated many times was a NICHE card, for those that wanted SLI/Crossfire performance in a small form factor that ran cool. If Nvidia wanted to make a card with two 680's caked onto one card to outperform two 7950/7970's they would have. The titan was made for small form factor PCs and for people with alot of dispensable income. Not people who care about saving money and arguing over performance to dollar ratios.
 
With the posts in this thread I would think that half the people in here are 10 years old. Someone's probably going to jump on my throat for this -- I don't do a lot of gaming but don't Nvidia cards also demonstrate(albeit a much smaller amount) of tearing and microstutter?

Either way, a flaw in AMD cards has been uncovered. While this is a little disappointing, I think it's safe to say that with the amount of attention this is getting AMD is feeling a lot of pressure to fix this issue before HD8000. They were able to compete pretty well with Nvidia as-is, if we see HD8000 with this issue completely hammered out and the refined drivers they say they are focusing on, I think we will see some pretty nice cards.

I'm not defending AMD, but I think If this issue creates more competition it's only better for us, as we should see higher performing cards at a lower price point on both sides.
 
10.5 inch is hardly small form factor compared to say the 650ti boost 9.5 inch or even the actual board length of the 650ti 5.75 inch, now that's a small form factor, Titan most certainly is not, that is a standard length for a high performance card lets alone enthusiast grade.
 
I've been using dual GPU setups for years now, and I must say that I notice a remarkable improvement when a game actually supports both video cards versus one. Take reports like this with a grain of salt.
 
Syphon Filter said:
Is that a fix or is it a mask for the symptoms?

Analogy: I have a headache so take a painkiller. The pain is gone but the underlying reason of the headache remains.
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I get smooth framerates and nearly double the performance of one card. And no screen tearing. I don't care what you call it.

EnvymeRT said:
If Nvidia wanted to make a card with two 680's caked onto one card to outperform two 7950/7970's they would have. The titan was made for small form factor PCs and for people with alot of dispensable income.
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That's true, but actually your idea isn't bad. Nvidia should make a card that's two 660s in one, that way you can get Titan performance for $600 less. I'm sure there's a market for that.
 
Crosshairs said:
it should come as no surprise to anyone that 2 threads with provocative titles are seeing a lot of activity and as such, are both at the top of the thread list .

If your looking to bash Nvidia, you may be able to get a few licks in here :p
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1754005
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I've been on this forum for many years. And actually yes, it did come as a surprise that those two threads were at the top of the list. Not because they were provocative, but because after reading both I had a feeling that they were inexorably linked in some way that wasn't obvious through considering the words alone.

I'm not looking to bash nVidia, all I was doing was using Occam's razor and selecting the one potential cause which uses the least assumptions. Clearly, the simplest and least assumption-riddled explanation would be nVidia. Which, I've heard on multiple forums, have been accused of "shills" before.

I'm looking at this as impartially as possible. Just because I've come to the conclusion that it may be nVidia's fault, does not mean impartiality was not applied in coming to that conclusion.
 
That's_Corporate said:
I've been on this forum for many years. And actually yes, it did come as a surprise that those two threads were at the top of the list. Not because they were provocative, but because after reading both I had a feeling that they were inexorably linked in some way that wasn't obvious through considering the words alone.

I'm not looking to bash nVidia, all I was doing was using Occam's razor and selecting the one potential cause which uses the least assumptions. Clearly, the simplest and least assumption-riddled explanation would be nVidia. Which, I've heard on multiple forums, have been accused of "shills" before.

I'm looking at this as impartially as possible. Just because I've come to the conclusion that it may be nVidia's fault, does not mean impartiality was not applied in coming to that conclusion.
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I have no idea what you're talking about but the issue is real and should dissuade anyone from going with a crossfire setup if they insist on playing without vsync or any sort of frame limiter. That Nvidia took the time to create tools to quantify frame times so they could point out AMD's sins is kind of amusing, but it's their money they can spend it how they want. However they've forced AMD to turn their attention to the issue so they'll fix it soon, removing the advantage Nvidia had in dual-GPU configurations so Nvidia basically shot themselves in the foot ("runt frames" have already been fixed in Borderlands 2 and a few other games).
 
That's_Corporate said:
I've been on this forum for many years. And actually yes, it did come as a surprise that those two threads were at the top of the list. Not because they were provocative, but because after reading both I had a feeling that they were inexorably linked in some way that wasn't obvious through considering the words alone.

I'm not looking to bash nVidia, all I was doing was using Occam's razor and selecting the one potential cause which uses the least assumptions. Clearly, the simplest and least assumption-riddled explanation would be nVidia. Which, I've heard on multiple forums, have been accused of "shills" before.

I'm looking at this as impartially as possible. Just because I've come to the conclusion that it may be nVidia's fault, does not mean impartiality was not applied in coming to that conclusion.
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Fair enough..:D
 
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