AMD has the current best GPU offerings directX11 jsut in time for Windows 7 and great performance with a reasonable price. It almost makes up for AMD's crappy CPU offering. Nvidia needs to come out with their cards and compete. Competition gives choice and lowers prices and raises performance. It looks Nvidia won;t even be able to compete until January 2010.
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AMD Briefing With Eric Demers Slide Deck @ [H]
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I wouldn't say that nvidia was gouging. It cost a lot more to produce the 200 series due to the size of the chip. I imagine ati & nvidia's target profit margin was the same. (Well that was true until ati released their 4xxx series, and nvidia was forced to drop their ASP for the chips)
And ATI didn't necessarily kick nvidia's butt. They won on price : performance ratio. But not the overall speed, feature, or quality war. (Anisotropic filtering at certain angles was still broken) Who won the previous round all depends on how you look at it.
From a coroporate standpoint, ATI did kick butt.
The AMD Radeon 4870 didn't kick NVIDIA's ass. It was slower than the Geforce GTX 280. It did force them to cut prices, albiet not quite by half. Aside from that statement I agree with you.
sirmonkey1985
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this PR spin allows AMD/ATI to stay on top.. so no matter what Nvidia releases on paper AMD/ATI already shows that they have the product out and available to the customer.. basicly kills any attempt Nvidia can make on saying that the Fermi will be better then the HD5870 in the gaming market.. that and the way its shown in the slide is that nvidia doesnt care about the gaming market anymore and AMD/ATI does.. which at this point makes that statement more and more true even though i hope its not.. we need the competition between companies to force prices lower then they already are..
I don't think I explained myself well. (if this was in agreement to his post) My next would have been red just for what they have brought to the table despite my preference for BFG. However it would probably have been red regardless just because I have had it with Nvidia business practices. I don't want ATI to go the same route as Nvidia, no need to talk smack when your already proceeding with the beat down. Look how far Nvidia's can of whoop ass took them. Everything ATI said is true (slanted maybe) so don't take me wrong.
sirmonkey1985
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oh i know it didnt kick the entire GTX lines ass.. but just beating the GTX 260 and at the price they were being sold at it scared nvidia so much that they started dropping prices on the entire line of cards.. so it ended up working.. honestly i think that was one of the best things to happen in the market at a consumer level..
eh 200 dollars is close enough to being half..
i mean hell the GTX 280 was selling for what the mid to high 500's when it was released? and then dropped below 400 within a few months.. i cant remember the exact numbers..oh i know it didnt kick the entire GTX lines ass.. but just beating the GTX 260 and at the price they were being sold at it scared nvidia so much that they started dropping prices on the entire line of cards.. so it ended up working.. honestly i think that was one of the best things to happen in the market at a consumer level..
eh 200 dollars is close enough to being half..
At launch the Geforce GTX 280 retailed for between $600 and $650. They dropped to around the $450 mark once the 4870 was released. It wasn't until much later than the Geforce GTX 280 dropped to sub-$400 price levels.
Let's not get carried away with the idea that Nvidia isn't advancing the GPU market either though, guys. They are, just very differently from AMD. Nvidia is advancing the GPU market with products like CUDA and their non-graphical application performance, while AMD took matters into their own hands by attacking arguably the most important threshold in the GPU market; power envelope. As we all know, there is only so much room in a case to cool a GPU, and there is only so much power you can pull from a wall socket to power it.
Companies take whatever AMD or Nvidia pays them to support their cards with programs like "The Way It's Made to be Played"
Companies take whatever AMD or Nvidia pays them to support their cards with programs like "The Way It's Made to be Played"
Mazgazine1
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This slide presentation seems like PR masturbation to me.. I mean *CLAP* yeah good for you ATI/AMD, now shut up and sell your card.. You can wave your "We're number 1" flag for a little longer.. Everyone knows you've been try to get it for awhile...
Don't start bashing nvidia out right, they have been schooling your GPU side for a while. Also Intel is dominating the CPU side..
There's pride in your work, then there is just being a dick.. ATI / AMD is at the dick stage..
I'll wait to see what Fermi brings, and if it is a remix of their 5900FX, then sure bring out presentations like this.. but right now? what if the Fermi is gods gift to PCs and turns your system solid gold and runs at 100fps on crysis.. Then what?
/Wants all GPU prices to drop
//If PhysX gets fixed with ATI cards present I may still jump on a 5870.. but that is holding me back
Don't start bashing nvidia out right, they have been schooling your GPU side for a while. Also Intel is dominating the CPU side..
There's pride in your work, then there is just being a dick.. ATI / AMD is at the dick stage..
I'll wait to see what Fermi brings, and if it is a remix of their 5900FX, then sure bring out presentations like this.. but right now? what if the Fermi is gods gift to PCs and turns your system solid gold and runs at 100fps on crysis.. Then what?
/Wants all GPU prices to drop
//If PhysX gets fixed with ATI cards present I may still jump on a 5870.. but that is holding me back
The Pharaoh
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I can't believe people saying that the HD 4000 and 5000 series have done nothing to advance graphics technology. The fact that parts like this are available all under the $400 (most under $300) price-tag is nothing short of amazing when compared to previous generations of graphics cards.
i think there's a lot to be said for ATI consistently helping to keep newer technologies available at more mainstream prices, because that does more for "actually furthering the graphics market" than focusing on monstrously expensive cutting-edge parts and re-branding previous-generation parts to compete in the mainstream. to put it another way, when do you think you'll see a $130 DX 11 card from nvidia? what can you say nvidia seems to be doing to make next-generation graphics technology available to the mainstream?
I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned nVidia's 5x00 family... We need to get the two companies to stop using the same (or very similar) naming schemes
I remember a similar debate going on surrounding DX10 and cards that supported it before games took advantage of it. Of course, DX10 took a very long time (and a few versions) before it started making any difference in the market.
AMD/ATI have a big advantage here. Not only do they hold the price
erformance lead, but they have several months to rake in the bucks before nVidia release their new cards and force AMD to drop prices. AMD has the opportunity to ramp up work on their next cards while nVidia are still working to get something out the door.The timing gap for nVidia means they'll also miss the all-important holiday season.
Oh, and waving the "We're #1" foam hands is what PR are supposed to do. Just because the PR guys are sticking their tongues at nV doesn't mean the engineers are partying in the back room instead of working.
lazz
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I see your logic, but I have to disagree. In terms of hardware sets and pricing, the 5870 is not competing with the GTX295.
BFG GTX295
This is the lowest priced GTX295 at Memory Express. It sells for $559.99CAD.
BFG GTX285
This is the lowest price GTX285. It sells for $299.99CAD, and is a rev. A board.
XFX HD5870
This is the lowest priced 5870. Retail $449.99CAD.
So we can see that the 5870 is priced about $50 over the 285 at launch. For that price, it increases performance significantly over that card, and has much, much better power envelope and heat consumption numbers. It's also a significant $110 dollars less than a 295. What is your reasoning behind comparing the two?
And my counter-argument is that the 5870x2 (Or 5970, whatever) will very likely be the "leap" you're looking for. And it's pictured, produced, and ready to launch. If you're not compartmentalizing competition then the newest cards out are the 5770 and 5750. Did you expect them to compete with the 285 or 295?
I think you have me confused with someone else. The first card I ever got was a GeForce 2 Pro, and I've owned many cards since then, both green and red. My only reason to replying was that I found your logic of comparing the 5870 to the 295 faulty.
GoodBoy
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Agree on all points.
This remains to be seen. And since this is mainly a technology refresh not an entirely new architechture like nv30 was, I have to disagree here.
Agree on all points. You might mention that Intel has now beaten AMD again in the CPU market, having learned a tough lesson with their P4's. Performance wise anyway. I'm loving the i7. My spare pc has my old Athlon 4400x2 in it. I've been an AMD user since k7 @ 400mhz or whatever it was called (circa 1999). The i7 is my first Intel cpu ever.
GTX295's in SLI? Assuming you mean using products available today. Fermi remains to be seen and might change this answer when it is available. Of course either of these in sli/crossfire is overkill unless running multiple screens.
I've got both. Currently using a gtx280 which likely will serve me well for at least another year.
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah ATI great this, el supremo god..
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Nvidia is dead, the king is dead, long live the king...
Two things,
First, I think it's great that something connected to AMD is successful in its market space.
Second, ATI seems to be on the defensive against a "Paper Tiger"
Let's tone down the marketing hype. Most of us will never see the promised performance benefits of one vendor over the other. Performance and image quality can be very subjective and if you run any resolution below 1920x1200 it really doesn't matter. Any mid range card can handle mainstream gaming.
Enjoy the show folks, that's all it is...
Well said.
The 5870 is 150 CAD more than the lowest priced 285, not 50. Check your math.
At newegg, 5870 is 380$ and a 295 can be had for 440$ (60$). The 285 can be had for 320$ (again 60$). On the other hand, a 260 (core 216) can be had for 150$ and a 275 could be had for 200$. If you want to compare on raw preformance compare the 5870 to the 295. If you want to compare on price/preformance compare to the 275 or the 260.
§kynet
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I don't think many people disagree that Femi stands a good chance of being faster but then again that isn't surprising when you consider it'll come out considerably later than the 5800s and is likely to cost more.
The simple fact is NV as a company isn't exactly in a good position and I don't think they are looking at salvation from the low volume of people who will spend out the the higher sums of money required to buy their newest top end part to play games.
The simple fact is NV as a company isn't exactly in a good position and I don't think they are looking at salvation from the low volume of people who will spend out the the higher sums of money required to buy their newest top end part to play games.
For the 285 he did say at launch.
lazz
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Sorry that was a typo. The retail cost of the 285 is $399.99CAD. Course, you could've clicked the link and looked yourself...
Well, I guess all us Canucks are getting fleeced hard when it comes to GPU prices. This is very likely due to the fact that there have been (multiple?) price drops on the GTX cards, whereas the 5870 is still selling at MSRP. In Canada, price cuts happen slower, and in less dramatic drops.
That said, I can see how your prices (if accurate) would represent a different playing field in the US.
ATI and Nvidia do these same pomp and circumstance presentations year after year with the same level of furor. Now what Visiontek did with their website a few generations ago, with a flash animation of Dawn getting swatted was more of a "dick" move than these slides.
You are right, it does remain to be seen. Fermi may not be entirely new technology but it's very different from GT200. It's hard to gauge things just yet. I'd imagine it would be competitive with AMD's parts but then again, maybe it won't. I find it very strange that NVIDIA hasn't commented on the chips gaming performance at all.
I've had so many CPUs from both companies it's hard to keep track of them all. I have however owned more Intel than AMD CPUs. This is because Intel has had better performing parts most of the last 15 years. In the early days I used AMD and Cyrix CPUs because I couldn't afford Intel chips. After that I avoided the earlier Athlons because their motherboards were crap. Eventually I switched to AMD again for the Thunderbird CPUs of which I had several. It wasn't until the Pentium 4 "Northwood" CPUs came out that I went back to Intel. I then went back to AMD when the Athlon 64 939 CPUs came out.
I go where the performance is. Price is always a secondary consideration for me these days.
I disagree. In any case if AMD can address their horrid scaling issues beyond 2 GPUs, the 5870 in CrossfireX (3 cards) or dual 5870 X2's (2 cards, 4 GPUs) in CrossfireX will wipe the floor with the Geforce GTX 295 Quad-SLI setup. Beyond that you can use multiple 5870's today. As for them being overkill? Not at all. At 2560x1600 the performance drops off quite a bit compared to 1920x1200. Add the highest levels of detail, eye candy and AA/AF and even 3-Way SLI'ed Geforce GTX 285's or GTX 295 Quad-SLI setups seem somewhat lacking. Batman Arkham Asylum is one example of this. I can't max out the AA and AF in that game at all. In fact, I'm no where near being able to do that. Crysis and Crysis Warhead are other examples of games where we could benefit from having more performance. However, their relevance is up for debate. They are relatively old now and I don't think people play them all that much anymore. Still, games will only get more demanding. The need for more performance, even with a single monitor is still there.
No doubt. I'm certain it will continue to serve you well. I've got four Geforce GTX 280's. 3 of them are in my gaming rig and one of them is in another machine. I will replace them with dual 5870 X2's more than likely. Hopefully I'll be adding two more 30" monitors for an Eyefinity configuration.
Going to DK, this is how the world looks:
5870 (Not in stock anywhere of 6 cards in total) price: 2.295,00 DKK ($460)
GTX285 (1/3 of cards in stock of 32 cards in total) price: 2.100,00 DKK ($420)
That site covers ALL of the e-tailers in DK...if it's not on the list, it's not in DK.
So if AMD pulled a hardlaunch...and NVIDIA dropped the highmarket...they forgot to inform DK
5870 (Not in stock anywhere of 6 cards in total) price: 2.295,00 DKK ($460)
GTX285 (1/3 of cards in stock of 32 cards in total) price: 2.100,00 DKK ($420)
That site covers ALL of the e-tailers in DK...if it's not on the list, it's not in DK.
So if AMD pulled a hardlaunch...and NVIDIA dropped the highmarket...they forgot to inform DK
Gorankar
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Going to DK, this is how the world looks:
5870 (Not in stock anywhere of 6 cards in total) price: 2.295,00 DKK ($460)
GTX285 (1/3 of cards in stock of 32 cards in total) price: 2.100,00 DKK ($420)
That site covers ALL of the e-tailers in DK...if it's not on the list, it's not in DK.
So if AMD pulled a hardlaunch...and NVIDIA dropped the highmarket...they forgot to inform DK
It looks like they forgot to inform the DK. The launch seems fairly hard in North America. Limited quantities for the first week or so, then fairly good availability since then on the 5870. You can buy them fairly easily with out too much looking around. With the exception of the 5850 the rest of the 5000 series is easy to find without much effort, and even it can still be found if you look around. Availability where you are is not so good it seems. But be honest, it is not like you really want to buy one.
The only thing keeping me from sticking with ATi cards is the superior F@h performance from nV. Equal or beat what a similarly priced nV card puts out, and I'll swap back over again; that's my only issue. Hell I just bought my 260 due to F@h and ditched the 4830 CF setup that had served me well the last 6+ months.
I have no problem saying ATi cards outperform nV's for everything else. Folding though, ATi's cards are still sorely lacking.
As ive come to understand, F@H will be getting a new core soon and it will begin utilizing the OpenCL found on most ATI cards, so for all intents and purposes, ATI cards should start folding just as good as nvidia is now.
fermi/gt300 seems more as a multipurpose thing than a gamers card and choice.
Price/performance is important for many and as for myself I view the eyefinity as a great feature that is actually useful.
it wont matter if fermi is fast, as people buy what they need not what is available.
Price/performance is important for many and as for myself I view the eyefinity as a great feature that is actually useful.
it wont matter if fermi is fast, as people buy what they need not what is available.
I game at 1600x1200, I doubt a change from a GTX285 to a HD5870 would do anything for me at this point in time...besides make me loose certain features.
I don't consider the 5x00 series, or the gtx series to be failures in their respective purpose.
The phenom 2 isnt really a failure either.
All of these products are great in their respective areas, it's great to say "intel is fastest", but how many people can afford that path?
The ti4200s/geforce2mx/radeon 9600s were insanely popular for a reason.
The phenom 2 isnt really a failure either.
All of these products are great in their respective areas, it's great to say "intel is fastest", but how many people can afford that path?
The ti4200s/geforce2mx/radeon 9600s were insanely popular for a reason.
Evidently quite a few given Intel's sales vs. AMD's.
Gorankar
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Your opinion is perfectly understandable.
Yay for another thread. The only thing worse than people falling for political spin hook-line-and-sinker is when they fall for corporate spin the same way.
Its marketing speak. The people that get on here and make a whole post about Nvidia is better or ATi is better need to get a sponsorship from their favorite company or realize you're giving free advertising.
For the rest of us who just want to buy the best product that fits our needs, ATi is probably looking better for this brief period of time. When Nvidia releases their next card, those of us who are rational will have to choose between the features of each. I personally am looking forward to getting a 5870x2 if the idle power consumption is similar to a single 5870. I personally spend 3/4 of my time on my PC browsing the web and doing work, and having used SLI 280s for almost a year, I am sick of pissing away money on the power required to read webpages. If Nvidia can come up with a better GPU that fits the needs of people who feel the same way, then they will get the business from that market.
Having the best card and having the fastest card with the best FPS numbers are two completely different things.
One thing is for sure, you should be praying that both companies do well and compete aggressively. If you favor one company and their dominance means you "win"; we all lose.
Its marketing speak. The people that get on here and make a whole post about Nvidia is better or ATi is better need to get a sponsorship from their favorite company or realize you're giving free advertising.
For the rest of us who just want to buy the best product that fits our needs, ATi is probably looking better for this brief period of time. When Nvidia releases their next card, those of us who are rational will have to choose between the features of each. I personally am looking forward to getting a 5870x2 if the idle power consumption is similar to a single 5870. I personally spend 3/4 of my time on my PC browsing the web and doing work, and having used SLI 280s for almost a year, I am sick of pissing away money on the power required to read webpages. If Nvidia can come up with a better GPU that fits the needs of people who feel the same way, then they will get the business from that market.
Having the best card and having the fastest card with the best FPS numbers are two completely different things.
One thing is for sure, you should be praying that both companies do well and compete aggressively. If you favor one company and their dominance means you "win"; we all lose.
GoodBoy
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... I've got four Geforce GTX 280's. 3 of them are in my gaming rig and one of them is in another machine. I will replace them with dual 5870 X2's more than likely. Hopefully I'll be adding two more 30" monitors for an Eyefinity configuration.
Sweet! Care to sell a 280 on the cheap?
Agree with U...eg: bought my first ATI card since 9700pro, a few days after launch - retired the overpriced 280s, which gave me space and cooled my rig in general. I also look for performance - the name on the sticker is irrelevant, it simply must go-o-o-!!!
TBH I do think this presentation by ATI a bit, err....much
but then NV do the same. It's all about the Xmas sales, or lack of that NV will have this year....as for Fermi, the name is less than inspiring - sounds like the name of a small chicks car - and if it's another NV30, then a big lol!!!!!!
..and to the NV fanboi's - don't be!! U owe NV nothing, they owe ME $$$ still on overpriced GTX280s, I won't forget Mr CEO of NV
..however, if gt100(prefer this name?) is good, bring me onboard, I will conveniently forget overpriced GTX280s
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donjuancarlos
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I think ATI did a great job with the 5000 series, but if anyone thinks that the fat FERMI chip with 40% more transistors isn't going to kick the 5870s butt (despite it's ECC, etc.) is kidding themselves. The only question is how cost-competitive it's going to be.
I use a notebook to surf while my systems crunch work units. Since you don't F@H, a notebook would save you a ton just turning off your desktop when not gaming.
The only thing keeping me from sticking with ATi cards is the superior F@h performance from nV. Equal or beat what a similarly priced nV card puts out, and I'll swap back over again; that's my only issue. Hell I just bought my 260 due to F@h and ditched the 4830 CF setup that had served me well the last 6+ months.
I have no problem saying ATi cards outperform nV's for everything else. Folding though, ATi's cards are still sorely lacking.
well here is the problem, it is not ati's fault, it is the current gpu software for folding is based on some old code, and I read somewhere after googling it that they are working on a new gpu cliet which is based on opencl version of folding client if I am not mistaken, they have said that ati cards will perform considerably better with the new client.
you might be right but more transistors mean more performance? you forget that a big portion of gpu is dedicated to the gpgpu purpose, I am over more transistors = more performance claim.
Sweet! Care to sell a 280 on the cheap?
I will most likely be selling three of them once the 5870 X2 comes out.