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alternate use for ppu

T

T-Minus10

Weaksauce
Joined
Aug 28, 2000
Messages
65
My first video card was not a voodoo graphics but a Matrox m3d. The card cost me $60 and came with a game of equal value. Furthermore, it allowed me to play a number of the games I already played with better graphics.

How does Aegia expect anyone to pay $200 on a card with overwhelmingly limited value and useability? It is reportedly "highly programmable." Why not give it some use and release some way of exploiting that. If it were to simply behave like another core, I would be more likely to even think about investing in, what seems to me a product with, as of right now, essentially no use.

Just a thought. I have no idea how specialized the chip is.
 
Aegia's PPU sucks and is a waste of moeny, we all aready know that allready
 
If a guy could only fold on one of these ...then ...maybe ..just maybe


[F]old|[H]ard
 
Arcygenical said:
Yeah, I want my killer NIC to do this too :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

hahah now thats good stuff. there is a guy in my office that totaly has one of thease cheap ass premod cases thats all blue, has 5 windows, 9 CCFL, the entire front is a door with 3 glow gauges that do nothing.. he also has a thermaltake cooler, SLI, Aegia's PPU and a Xfi.. and he wants a new motherboard because he dosnt have any room for his killer NIC on his current 2 PCI board
 
yea at the last LAN party I cought him running BF2 1024x768 with all MED settings...no aa or AF
he never bothere to change anything, never wen tot his NV control pannel nothing... this si 2 7900gts BTW
 
I(illa Bee said:
yea at the last LAN party I cought him running BF2 1024x768 with all MED settings...no aa or AF
he never bothere to change anything, never wen tot his NV control pannel nothing... this si 2 7900gts BTW
Click to expand...

lol, what a waste of some decent parts.
 
yea and he was asking me my system specs because mine looked so good...

2.8Ghz sandy, 7800GT sli, 2gb ddr400 thats it...
 
I(illa Bee said:
yea at the last LAN party I cought him running BF2 1024x768 with all MED settings...no aa or AF
he never bothere to change anything, never wen tot his NV control pannel nothing... this si 2 7900gts BTW
Click to expand...

Some people shouldn't be allowed to breed :D
 
T-Minus10 said:
My first video card was not a voodoo graphics but a Matrox m3d. The card cost me $60 and came with a game of equal value. Furthermore, it allowed me to play a number of the games I already played with better graphics.

How does Aegia expect anyone to pay $200 on a card with overwhelmingly limited value and useability? It is reportedly "highly programmable." Why not give it some use and release some way of exploiting that. If it were to simply behave like another core, I would be more likely to even think about investing in, what seems to me a product with, as of right now, essentially no use.

Just a thought. I have no idea how specialized the chip is.
Click to expand...
The card does have an extra use. I use it as a paperweight to keep my homewook from flying away on windy days. Its great for picking up robots.
 
I(illa Bee said:
hahah now thats good stuff. there is a guy in my office that totaly has one of thease cheap ass premod cases thats all blue, has 5 windows, 9 CCFL, the entire front is a door with 3 glow gauges that do nothing.. he also has a thermaltake cooler, SLI, Aegia's PPU and a Xfi.. and he wants a new motherboard because he dosnt have any room for his killer NIC on his current 2 PCI board
Click to expand...


A computer ricer! :eek:
 
T-Minus10 said:
My first video card was not a voodoo graphics but a Matrox m3d. The card cost me $60 and came with a game of equal value. Furthermore, it allowed me to play a number of the games I already played with better graphics.

How does Aegia expect anyone to pay $200 on a card with overwhelmingly limited value and useability? It is reportedly "highly programmable." Why not give it some use and release some way of exploiting that. If it were to simply behave like another core, I would be more likely to even think about investing in, what seems to me a product with, as of right now, essentially no use.

Just a thought. I have no idea how specialized the chip is.
Click to expand...

Is that Ageia fault?

Think about this.

Most PC games you can adjust your Graphical settings to tweak to your Graphical hardware. But CPU related stuff as Physics AI not. Wonder why?
Yes some games RTS once have a option of max units. Rise Of Nations.
Or a AI slider BF1942. Those are some exceptions.

The problem is the game developers. The must make games be able to adopt to avaible CPU power. Or PPU or GPU for physicx

The problem would be Stupid vs intelligent AI would be the differens between a old single core vs a QC extreem. the problen is it influence gameplay.

Dito for Physics altho the Effect physics would not be a problem, but the gameplay physx would. Means the experience changes because gameplay is different.

Besides that a game must be made with PhysX API. Only games with that detect a PPU


So in my point a view what the problem. wenn 3DfX voodoo came. It give new game so much more graphical prowness older games didn't offer that only new games utilise with Glide.

One day they could come with nextgen PPU's giving more power. So adoptive Physics settings are a must. Also the possible use of SLI for PPU's.

So it's not a porblem if it doeas only one thing just it does it well. And that is in the hands of the game developers. And that takes time wenn only a few make a difference.

I don't buy 1000 games in a year only the once that I like and stand out the crowed.
 
i think the Killer NIC and Ageia PPU should bundle themselves together

= most useless bundle ever!!!

although, if it were 150$ for both, with fear extraction point and graw and cellfactor, then maybe....


anyone think that maybe they have the prices so high, so that when they lower the prices to 250$, nay, even 200$, people will see the perceived value as xxx$, and jump on em?

it may be marketing

they dont' have competition yet, they are getting the suckers who will pay 300$ for it now, and drop the price slowly as they get everyone at the top price each is willing to pay
 
SuperGee said:
Is that Ageia fault?

Think about this.

Most PC games you can adjust your Graphical settings to tweak to your Graphical hardware. But CPU related stuff as Physics AI not. Wonder why?
Yes some games RTS once have a option of max units. Rise Of Nations.
Or a AI slider BF1942. Those are some exceptions.

The problem is the game developers. The must make games be able to adopt to avaible CPU power. Or PPU or GPU for physicx

The problem would be Stupid vs intelligent AI would be the differens between a old single core vs a QC extreem. the problen is it influence gameplay.

Dito for Physics altho the Effect physics would not be a problem, but the gameplay physx would. Means the experience changes because gameplay is different.

Besides that a game must be made with PhysX API. Only games with that detect a PPU


So in my point a view what the problem. wenn 3DfX voodoo came. It give new game so much more graphical prowness older games didn't offer that only new games utilise with Glide.

One day they could come with nextgen PPU's giving more power. So adoptive Physics settings are a must. Also the possible use of SLI for PPU's.

So it's not a porblem if it doeas only one thing just it does it well. And that is in the hands of the game developers. And that takes time wenn only a few make a difference.

I don't buy 1000 games in a year only the once that I like and stand out the crowed.
Click to expand...


yea, you could blame the game devs, but you also have to ask yourself "Why would a game dev spend extra time and money on utilizing a card no one has?"

Ill bet its not even .005% of computers than have one and not even 1% of gamers!
 
on the note of the Killer+PPU combo! they need to throw in one of those cool as multi laser CDroms to maximize install times!

dose anyoen remember those things?
 
SuperGee said:
Besides that a game must be made with PhysX API. Only games with that detect a PPU

So in my point a view what the problem. wenn 3DfX voodoo came. It give new game so much more graphical prowness older games didn't offer that only new games utilise with Glide.
Click to expand...

Superbee, you don't have to defend your Aegia purchase, however we can't compare 3dfx and Aegia because of one main issue:

The killer ap for the voodoo graphics was not something brand new that needed glide to run on its own, it was glquake. Quake was out already -- glquake was just prettier. Over time as 3dfx became mainstream and d3d / opengl acceleration became the norm, developers could assume the user had a graphics accelerator.

Have you played Half Life 2? It has physics! Most games use at least some rudementary physics model. Some of them even use the Havok api (read: they could maybe be accelerated by the ppu). Are they notably accelerated? I don't really know but because I haven't read about anything like this except in theory from aegia's marketing goons, I'll assume not. In fact, most Aegia / Havok interaction has been Havok explaining why Aegia is useless.

What it comes down to is Aegia really has to show
A) a need for its product
and
B) a use.

Perhaps there is a need. There surely is physics in games.

A use? Not yet. Aegia right now doesn't help 99.99% of games with physics. Some of those games it claims to help it hurts. Ok little Aegia, I'll give you some breathing room and say that, in your infancy, while you still has venture capital to burn, you're not ready for the mainstream -- or -- any stream -- you should work on your liquid effects.
 
The card does not have another use... NOW

Just wait for the PHYSx games to start coming out before judging it...
 
I expect that they could go into liquidation if they don't get the support they need in the next 12 months.
 
Arcygenical said:
The card does not have another use... NOW

Just wait for the PHYSx games to start coming out before judging it...
Click to expand...

by the time that happends we will have real PPU soultion from NV and ATI.
 
T-Minus10 said:
Sound like the marketing folks for the Phantom.
Click to expand...
but the difference being that there is a real working product here in the hands of us the consumers unlike the phantom


[F]old|[H]ard
 
I LOL at anyong who spends money on a PPU, everyone who ever buys one and comes to a forum has to fight to defend their purchase, if it worked they wouldn't have to. The best arguement here from a PPU owner is "wait until the games support it." Ok why didn't you wait for that, then buy the PPU, doesn't that make more sense? Maybe when they have a larger amount of games out that support it, prices will lower and people might get interested. No one knows if these things will ever take off, there is no guarantee that PPU's will ever become popular. Accept the facts and stop trying to say these things are the future of gaming.

Buying a PPU is like a grown man buying pants 10 times too big and saying "When I get this big I'll use them, You'll see."
 
Arcygenical said:
The card does not have another use... NOW

Just wait for the PHYSx games to start coming out before judging it...
Click to expand...
And for how many months has the Ageia fan club been saying "just wait a few more months?" Far too many.

Would you buy a car from a brand new company with no track record that only allowed you to drive 50 miles before it shut off, but promises are out there that it would be fixed soon and would allow you to drive 2,000 miles on a single tank of gas? No, you would not. When you buy a PPU what you are buying is potential. It may end up being a smashing success... or it may be a flop.

Everyone should just do what the PhysX apologetics preach - wait a few more months before buying it.
 
T-Minus10 said:
define "working."
Click to expand...
..going to Wal-Mart at 7am Monday thru Friday and sitting in a tiny booth taking peoples camera film until 4:30pm ..without even breaking a sweat I might add...

Now thats working


[F]old|[H]ard
 
Guys, you're missing the point....

Someone needs to find a way to do like Quad PPU then, link 100 computers with Quad PPU, then have it run some intense phyics calulations, like, how an atomic bomb works or something....

I say that's a use for an alternate use for the PPU as a simulator for Atomic Energy.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Guys, you're missing the point....

Someone needs to find a way to do like Quad PPU then, link 100 computers with Quad PPU, then have it run some intense phyics calulations, like, how an atomic bomb works or something....

I say that's a use for an alternate use for the PPU as a simulator for Atomic Energy.
Click to expand...
It's not precise enough to be used in something like that. I doubt the PPU is adequate for any science or engineering applications.
 
dotK said:
It's not precise enough to be used in something like that. I doubt the PPU is adequate for any science or engineering applications.
Click to expand...

its not even adequate for some games!
 
theoretically -- that's the idea at least. Like the rest of the ppu, most of what it can do is not being exploited.
 
Well it looks like pissing on ageia day. Lot of short sighted bashing on ageia.
What have ageia done to deserve that?

First Ageia had a bright idea to enhance games with a larger step of Physics power.
To create the possibility to make More Physics enhanced games.Through a dedicated card. As option for hardcore gamers and enhausiast.
just like 3DFX started the 3D accerated gamers market.

And with more Gameplay Physics also a possible revolution in gameplay.
But that's up to the Dev's. And CF:Revolution is such small title who do so.

3dfx isn't bashed around. why?

Well 3DFX had dit easier. weak competition strong competition way later. where they kick the bucket. But are aprriciated what they have accoplished.

Ageia did somthing simmilar. Statred a new Physics acceleration market still busy doing so. But in short time very powerfull competition from two big player coming around. nV and ATI. What they do is using there G-cards as P accelerators.
Why bashing ageia because they have a hardtime?
Make no sense to me.

Wich means ageia bright idea will be a sucses altho nV and ATI will take it over in the long run.

Ageia is the underdog.
But it still early to throw the tow in the ring.

I wait what CF:Revolution will bring and UT2007.

As for me buying two PPU. I bought it first for CF:CT. secondly for Graw wich I liked even without PPU. That's my Genre Tactical shooters.

Plus 60 to 120 games in produktion

Let just wait what CF:R brings that could change the publick opinion drasticly plus Dev get a game example of how it's done.

Effect physics is nice.
But gameplay hardware accelerated Physics will make the difference.

Onday there will also be such game for Havok FX to.

but for Hardware accelerated Physics a PPU is the thing in 2007 and Gpu for physics will rise in that year.

That why I bought some PPU.

And now begin 2007 I will upgrade a third gamerig. To a Vista Gamerig. Large chance that it gets a PPU to, possibly a PCIE version.
CF:CT and Graw in coop with 3 players in our home LAN.
Possible we are playing Revolution by then.

I hope the Second wave op more affordable Quad cores are out by then.
DX10 (Semi)high-end DX10 hardware
4GB internal
Vista
Mobo with lot expansion slots.

Maybe PPU in SLI. Someday they might support SLI for PPU :)
Keeping the option open. Also for Physics GPU cards
 
SuperGee said:
First Ageia had a bright idea to enhance games with a larger step of Physics power. To create the possibility to make More Physics enhanced games.Through a dedicated card. As option for hardcore gamers and enhausiast. just like 3DFX started the 3D accerated gamers market.
Click to expand...
This comparison is straight up not fair. 3dfx did start the 3d acceleated game market but the way in which they did it was very different.
SuperGee said:
Well 3DFX had dit easier. weak competition strong competition way later. where they kick the bucket. But are aprriciated what they have accoplished.
Click to expand...
Competition isn't why 3dfx's *idea* succeeded. Most early game engines were hacks. The Doom engine was a glorified 2d engine. Quake, which arguably had the first "real" 3d engine worked because carmack is a bright guy and invented a number of tricks to speed up rendering.

3dfx filled a void. Games needed hardware accelerators when processors were still crawling. Furthermore, when 3dfx released voodo graphics, noone could complain because the difference was so startling. You could play glide accelerated games and you could play the same games using software rendering -- yes there was an api, but there was also a need and a demand from the get-go.
SuperGee said:
Ageia did somthing simmilar. Statred a new Physics acceleration market still busy doing so. But in short time very powerfull competition from two big player coming around. nV and ATI. What they do is using there G-cards as P accelerators.
Why bashing ageia because they have a hardtime?
Click to expand...
They had a good idea, maybe. The parallel is not applicable though because the absolute need for accelerated physics right now isn't here.

SuperGee said:
Wich means ageia bright idea will be a sucses altho nV and ATI will take it over in the long run.
Click to expand...
The fact is, had Aegia never been around, Graphics cards would have still implemented ppus into their chips. Each new graphics card released has a new killer feature that isn't exploited until the card is obsolete.

The GeFroce was the first card to have hardware t/l. Very few games used Hardware t/l until the Geforce 2 was around at which point the GeForce was almost too slow to effectively exploit its own introduction.

The reason lots of people flocked to the GeForce wasn't because it had hardware T/L, though, it was because it ran all the current games faster and prettier than anything before it. The fact that nVidia was thinking towards the future was only because the business is competitive. Same reason AMD went 64bit over two years ago. How many of us are running 64bit windows even now?

What I'm trying to say is that the difference between 3dfx and Aegia -- and the difference between nVidia/ati and Aegia is that 3dfx, nVidia, ati, all immediatealy show their worth.

Aegia doesn't even have an impressive tech demo. Impressive physics, right now, is all achieved effectively in software.
SuperGee said:
As for me buying two PPU. I bought it first for CF:CT. secondly for Graw wich I liked even without PPU. That's my Genre Tactical shooters.
Click to expand...

Your welcome to waste your/your parents' money however you want. Most of the people on this board are people who love to bleed from the cutting edge of technology. I wish Aegia would give us all scars, which was the initial intention of this thread.

So far it seems more like an effective marketing campaign.
SuperGee said:
Plus 60 to 120 games in produktion

Let just wait what CF:R brings that could change the publick opinion drasticly plus Dev get a game example of how it's done.

Effect physics is nice.
But gameplay hardware accelerated Physics will make the difference.

Onday there will also be such game for Havok FX to.

but for Hardware accelerated Physics a PPU is the thing in 2007 and Gpu for physics will rise in that year.
Click to expand...

"And a flying car in every home."
 
dp0001 said:
can ppu card be used for folding
Click to expand...
Maybe. It would depend on how programmable the PPU actually is and how precise of calculations it can perform in this programmed mode vs. the requirements of folding.
 
dotK said:
And for how many months has the Ageia fan club been saying "just wait a few more months?" Far too many.

Would you buy a car from a brand new company with no track record that only allowed you to drive 50 miles before it shut off, but promises are out there that it would be fixed soon and would allow you to drive 2,000 miles on a single tank of gas? No, you would not. When you buy a PPU what you are buying is potential. It may end up being a smashing success... or it may be a flop.

Everyone should just do what the PhysX apologetics preach - wait a few more months before buying it.
Click to expand...

Uhm mind not reading too far into my post?

I said, it has no use NOW, it'll have a use later. I never said, "ZOMG BUY IT NOW FOR FUTUREPROOFING LOL"

I said HOLD off on the judgement. I didn't put it on a pedistal, and I didn't call it a flop. I said, "wait."


Far too many people are calling it a waste of money, and some are even heralding it as a huge success. Anyone that says this is clearly JUMPING TO A CONCLUSION, as there isn't enough data out there to accurately judge this product.
 
While there wasn't a alterned use for Voodoo. It was games only. So why branch of in other way's? GPU are statring to be very general purpouse.
But that due to those more Generalpourpouse nature of those SM4.0 shader. Stream Proscesors called by marketing to excentuate its general purpousness. With marketing power.
Certenly we can compare 3DFX with Ageia
There is no law against it.

Of course there is a difference.
The differnece could be the reason why Ageia isn't so populair as what whould be expected!!!

The difference.
Point zero: :) 3DFX is far history now. And have a full track record of sucses and it's down fall way back. Ageia is just starting. So not much to compare except there early day's.
First point competition:
3DFX had more free room to storm the market. Rendition was a weak and small Player. nV ATI doing there thing, coming later in to hurt 3DFX in the very long run.
While Ageia start with nV and ATI in it's neck. Underdog and two chipzillas.
That was the competition part. 130nm vs 90 / 80 / 65nm. Strong vs weak.
Second difference: Gamedevelopers and marketing of games are very Grhapics minded. Screens shot and graphics vids say it all. Easier to market. Very noticable by gamers to. Game development is less or more focused on over the edge Graphics then making a well balanced game. AI/Physics/GFX. This played a hughe role for 3DFX in a positive way. For ageia in a bad way. A game that is overly Ghrapics hardware dependend means those dev's didn't use CPU to its max. While Grpahics can impress for a short time. stupid AI kills gameplay.
3DFX was in the bussnes to take Graphics to its next level. Wich almost sells it selfs because it adds where the focus ly's with the devs. Ghrapics. And where Gamers are very sensitve about. The looks of games.

3D games is as old as PC are. 3D rending started first with wireframe games.
of course no match for bitblitter hardware wenn windows came.

Physics and AI get its attention latley but the game industry is still heavy focused on graphics. But thats not all.
Third point gamers are to more or less focused on Graphics.

That why the industry adopted faster to 3DFX then would be for Ageia PPU.
Marketing Physics vs Graphics is a different ballgame.
A picture says it all. a Movie flic of a game even more.
Effectphysics nice but adds to it a Vid says it all a Picture a lot less.
Gameplay physics where the core of this gaming revolution is. Is hard to marketing.
Because Behavior you cant present with a picture. A vid help but would be indirect by grpahics. But the graphics distract.
Physics is judge by how it looks not behaves or interact.
Gameplay physcs you must interact with so play it experience it. In a Physcal virual world.

Well that CF:CT. where nV take the strong marketable Graphical route to make flashy graphical focused Effect physics tech demo's. Well Nice looks. But distracts from the physics. Good for effects Physics case.

And thats not all.
Fourth point.
Better Graphics doesn't implicate gamedesign and Mechanics and netcode.
It have influence on world design its Geometry and texture limits.
Gameplay related Physics does influence more.
Like destrucable enviorment needs very highlevel and dynamical Pathfinding. Physics generated objects must be Synch over the net. Gameplay turn out different ly and must be rebalanced. For other Physics settings. Gameplay Physics changes Game play mechanincs and gamedesign on a higher compex level.
Level design get complexer as avery object must it Physics atributes set. And destructable detail. So this implication of making games more complex keeps Gamedevs'on a reserve stance. Only the once wanting to take gameing to the next level. And this time not only the Graphics way. Take the efort and risk to go that extra mile.

All those Factors give Ageia a harder time that's the difference between 3DFX and Ageia case.

But like the tread starter said. Let wait how it turn out.
3DFX is history Ageia is just starting making it own history.

So i realy lookin forward what CF revolution could mean for Ageia track record.
And for me. Would it be one of those games where we need more of. Something realy fresh. Then extreem GPU focused games like Fear or oblivibion.
Of course 2 G80 could do it to with Quantum or havok FX. But they have to face the same gamedesign dilemma's and obstakles as this Game design problem is valid for every gameplay phsyics solution.

UT2007 will be also important as it is a Class AAA title.
But they don't take the risk that far. I expect them to go for more fancy effect Physics.
 
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