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AGP4, 8 and PCIe comparison

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Jun 6, 2004
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A week or two ago I read an article comparing the speeds of AGP1, 2, 4, 8 and PCIe. I can't remember where I read it, or when exactly, but I think it was posted on [H] even though I've gone back through the archives and still can't find it.

Does anyone here know what I'm talking about, and if so, please would you post a link to the article?

Thanks ;)
 
SO basically we could have all stuck with agp 4x boards and probably still be ok! (very little impact from 4x to 8x..... therefore 8x to PCI-e is probably also mostly a waste)

And the "PCI-express and AGP port" motherboards that cheat by putting the AGP slot on the PCI bus is going to take a hit on high resolution or demanding 3d games.
 
chrisf6969 said:
SO basically we could have all stuck with agp 4x boards and probably still be ok! (very little impact from 4x to 8x..... therefore 8x to PCI-e is probably also mostly a waste)

And the "PCI-express and AGP port" motherboards that cheat by putting the AGP slot on the PCI bus is going to take a hit on high resolution or demanding 3d games.
Click to expand...

Yup. And it also nullifies any small performance hit NVidia pcie cards will take for using a non-native bridged solution.
 
ehZn said:
I think this might be what you are talking about.

http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=554
Click to expand...

Everyone really needs to go check out that article and give it a good, serious read through. Sudhian has brought to light the fact that the likes of AGP8x and often times even AGP4x are already largely unused when it comes to bandwidth, and actually proved it. PCI-E is actually more important to the manufacturing of the boards ATM then it does to the gamer. Along with making the boards easier to make (trace wise) and such, PCI-E does bring a few other things to the table.....but that LAST thing you should consider it for is any kind of performance gain.....because there IS none. Sudhian said it right.....if you're already running a newer A64 or P4 setup then there is virtually no reason to "up"grade to a PCI-E setup.....as you'd simply be buying into the hype and throwing your money away. However, if there is somebody with an all around older system (a P3, original Athlon, or s423) who wants to jump on some newer technology then it might not be THAT bad a move.....just dont even think about it yet if your computer is fairly new.

This is EXACTly what I've been saying for quite some time now, and its nice to finally have a review with some cold hard facts to prove it all.

And the "PCI-express and AGP port" motherboards that cheat by putting the AGP slot on the PCI bus is going to take a hit on high resolution or demanding 3d games.
Click to expand...

yep, largely to do with the fact that they'll still be missing GART.....which was shown (during Sudhian's testing) to more often then not, have the biggest impact on performance overall.....those "cheater" boards are such a joke if that's in fact what they're doing.
 
cornelious0_0 said:
Everyone really needs to go check out that article and give it a good, serious read through. Sudhian has brought to light the fact that the likes of AGP8x and often times even AGP4x are already largely unused when it comes to bandwidth, and actually proved it. PCI-E is actually more important to the manufacturing of the boards ATM then it does to the gamer. Along with making the boards easier to make (trace wise) and such, PCI-E does bring a few other things to the table.....but that LAST thing you should consider it for is any kind of performance gain.....because there IS none. Sudhian said it right.....if you're already running a newer A64 or P4 setup then there is virtually no reason to "up"grade to a PCI-E setup.....as you'd simply be buying into the hype and throwing your money away. However, if there is somebody with an all around older system (a P3, original Athlon, or s423) who wants to jump on some newer technology then it might not be THAT bad a move.....just dont even think about it yet if your computer is fairly new.

This is EXACTly what I've been saying for quite some time now, and its nice to finally have a review with some cold hard facts to prove it all.



yep, largely to do with the fact that they'll still be missing GART.....which was shown (during Sudhian's testing) to more often then not, have the biggest impact on performance overall.....those "cheater" boards are such a joke if that's in fact what they're doing.
Click to expand...

He speaks the truth...
 
^^ He speaks truth about him speaking truth about the article speaking truth and whatnot ;)

Still, it'll be worth it to me if I can get a dual pci-e amd939 board for SLi by the end of the year.
 
ehZn said:
^^ He speaks truth about him speaking truth about the article speaking truth and whatnot ;)

Still, it'll be worth it to me if I can get a dual pci-e amd939 board for SLi by the end of the year.
Click to expand...

lol...

hmmm...SLI...yeah thats gonna be interesting...i have never had a VooDoo in SLI or anything but i think it will be interesting too see...i could be tempted...at the moment my biggest dilemna is whether to up to a 6800/X800 card or stick it out till the end of the year...
 
Syphon Filter said:
lol...

hmmm...SLI...yeah thats gonna be interesting...i have never had a VooDoo in SLI or anything but i think it will be interesting too see...i could be tempted...at the moment my biggest dilemna is whether to up to a 6800/X800 card or stick it out till the end of the year...
Click to expand...

Be strong and stick it out with me. Wait for the amd fx55 to drop the 53 to a reasonable price, an nforce4 board supporting dual pci-e, and a pci-e GT or Ultra which should be much cheaper (you never know, the next gen may be out by then).
 
yeah i think i will wait till the end of the year...nearly got a 6800U but the place didnt get the stock so i cancelled.
 
Have any of you other noticed some of the VERY poor design with the new SLI design or am I the only one who things that its suicide to sandwhich two 6800's togethor like that? I mean really, with an ultra card, the fan housing extends down to the point where it basically IS touching parts of the card below. This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen.....I can see how SLI was a viable option in the days of the Voodoo2, cus our SLI'd cards werent EACH sucking up 100W+ of power.....now its just ridiculous to try a setup like that. I'm hoping that its possible to extend the length of that "sli bridge chip" and put at LEAST one empty slot between teh cards.....otherwise count me out. Sure the performance will be nice.....but do you REALLY want to see what kind of temps that top card is gonna be running at??? I don't think so. The only viable way out of this is to water cool both cards.....but you better have either a MASSIVE water cooling setup.....or a seperate loop for each card, cus you'd be just as insane to throw two 6800U's on the same water loop like that.

Unless some further engineering refinements are made, I REALLY dont see how Nvidia's SLI can ever become a viable option/reality for the majority of the hardware enthusiasts out there who are very concerned about their card/case temps.

That's just my little blurb.....I hope Nvidia does something to rememdy this.....or I'm sure not touching SLI.....not with two power hogs like that stuck right against each other like that.....geez.....at least find some kind of way to flip over the top card so that its not sucking OFF OF the other card.
 
cornelious0_0 said:
Have any of you other noticed some of the VERY poor design with the new SLI design or am I the only one who things that its suicide to sandwhich two 6800's togethor like that? I mean really, with an ultra card, the fan housing extends down to the point where it basically IS touching parts of the card below. This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen.....I can see how SLI was a viable option in the days of the Voodoo2, cus our SLI'd cards werent EACH sucking up 100W+ of power.....now its just ridiculous to try a setup like that. I'm hoping that its possible to extend the length of that "sli bridge chip" and put at LEAST one empty slot between teh cards.....otherwise count me out. Sure the performance will be nice.....but do you REALLY want to see what kind of temps that top card is gonna be running at??? I don't think so. The only viable way out of this is to water cool both cards.....but you better have either a MASSIVE water cooling setup.....or a seperate loop for each card, cus you'd be just as insane to throw two 6800U's on the same water loop like that.

Unless some further engineering refinements are made, I REALLY dont see how Nvidia's SLI can ever become a viable option/reality for the majority of the hardware enthusiasts out there who are very concerned about their card/case temps.

That's just my little blurb.....I hope Nvidia does something to rememdy this.....or I'm sure not touching SLI.....not with two power hogs like that stuck right against each other like that.....geez.....at least find some kind of way to flip over the top card so that its not sucking OFF OF the other card.
Click to expand...


As always u have raised some interesting points...They will surely have to slim down and reduce the W's required to run these cards if SLI is to be a feasible solution for the home/enthusiast user. I have a 550W Truepower Antec and I would not fancy its chances trying to run two of those cards and the rest of my system at the same time to be honest...The heat issue is also a big one...my 9800XT chucks out a fair bit of heat into my case and i am hearing that the 6800's chuck out even more....2 of them would just cause my case temps to rocket....I am guessing this is more a solution for professionals...where their boxes are running in cool (verging on cold) air cond. offices...
 
Actually, there would be very little room even for a slim wc setup between the two cards. What may have to happen is a fundamental redesign of the hsf so that air is taken in on the side and exhausted out the back, which would also require motherboard specs to put in an extra pci slot between the two cards, and you suggest.

And although this would use a lot of power, remember that the pci-e slot itself can supply up to 75W, while the extra connector can double that power capacity, I believe. Therefore as long as you have a stable, efficient psu, some pretty good cooling, this is not out of reach of even the into enthusiast.

Also remember that the gpu chips can run at significantly higher temps than a cpu. The 6800's often reach 90C. A wc setup on the cpu would reduce ambient case temps and allow for normal air cooling of the gpu's with cooler air.
 
Well I do fully realise that GPU's can comfortably run at higher temperatures then CPU's.....but that's not what I'm trying to address, I'm more worried about the heat that would come as a result of those temps. It is correct that someone with a good sized PSU (using a 24pin ATX connector as opposed to a 20pin) who is able to power the cards shouldn't have a LOT of troubles.....but there are still too many things working against Nvidia's SLI in my opinion. If you'll read [H]'s LGA775 overclocking article you'll get the full picture when it comes to the different power issues with the 6800 series PCI-E cards.....which is going to make the shift to that kind of setup all the more expensive for most ppl.

Lets face it, Nvidia isn't stupid.....they'll work something out, because after putting god only knows how much cash into R&D, I'm sure they're aware of these problems that are starting to draw attention. The most practicle solutions (I think) would be to simply design a new cooler (as ehZn said).....and possibly look at placing an empty slot between the two cards. Even if the HSF is re-done.....there will still be a great deal of heat coming off the PCB itself.....which WILL rise to warm the other card, so we'll see how things play out.

If Nvidia does get their act togethor with the design of their SLI setup we should be good to go, but if they try and push it on us "as is" I really cant see a lot of OEMs (who typically work towards cool, quiet systems) or gamers adopting the new technology anytime soon.

Again, just my .02
 
do you think perhaps they will make cards that are specifically designed for SLI?

As in twin packs (like some people do with ram). They will have different coolers and come as a full package?
 
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