Advice on a mammoth build

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wargoat

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Jul 13, 2005
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Greetings- I decided to build a new gaming box and want to go whole hog. To that end, I have thrown together a system on paper that looks pretty nice. The primary application of this machine will be gaming, particularly BF2, other upcoming FPS's and WoW. I want this system to be perform well for 2 to 3 years minimum. This systems falls within budget but I don't want to go too much higher. Please feel free to make suggestions or recommend alternate items.


AMD Athlon 64 FX57 San Diego 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADAFX57BNBOX
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard
(2X in SLI) XFX PVT45FYDF2 Geforce 6800Ultra 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card
CREATIVE Sound Blaster Audigy 4 Pro 8 (7.1) Channels PCI Interface Sound Card
LITE-ON Black IDE DVD Burner Model SOHW-1693S
HP Black IDE DVD Burner w/ Lightscribe Model DVD640I (Mostly want this for lightscribe.. is there a better lightscribe drive out there?)
(2X in Raid 0) Western Digital Caviar SE WD3000JD 300GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive
(2X for 4GB total) CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) ECC Registered Dual Channel
PC Power & Cooling 850 SSI SLI, EPS12V, SSI 850W Power Supply
Lian Li PC-V2100A Silver Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case
Windows XP Professional


Now here some questions- Should I go dual core or stick with the FX57? I've always liked Asus but I've considered the DFI Lanparty. Does it really matter? I'm planning to stick with air cooling with an array of 120mm fans. Is the stock heatsink/fan with the FX57 decent enough? I may convert to watercooling as oc'ing becomes necessary to keep up over time. And before anyone asks, I always like having two optical drives. I might use a different combination, but those seem good enough so far.

Thank you, I'll post pictures after I've nailed down exactly what I want and do the build..
 
You don't need registered RAM nor do you need an 850w PSU.
 
Keep in mind that "need" isn't really an issue. Performance and future expansion are my too key areas of concern. If there is a performance gain by changing something out I am all for it, but I'm not concerned about keeping it lean.

I'm going to look into the 7800GTX's. Are they that much better?
 
yes the 7800's are that much better.

850W's is a waste. Get the Turbocool 510W.

Ditch the ECC.

Go with a 16mb cache maxtor HDD. Great performance. Or use the saving from the PSU and go 2x74gig raptors in raid 1 (yes, duplicates for maximium data saftey, but the high performance raptors will negate any performance lost in raid 1) AND go 2x300 for storage space.

My 2 cents.
 
Excellent thank you.

So the 510 will be sufficient power for the two video cards? That's one of my greatest concerns and why I was going for severe overkill in the power department.

I wanted ECC for stability. Maybe I've just had bad ram/luck in the past, but I get fewer crashes with ECC. Not too much of a problem?
 
I would take a look at getting a single 7800gtx Performance is similar to the dual 6800s.
 
wargoat said:
I wanted ECC for stability. Maybe I've just had bad ram/luck in the past, but I get fewer crashes with ECC. Not too much of a problem?
Click to expand...


ECC only works if the mobo supports it. That does not. And you don't need it anyway. Spend the money on 7800's.
 
Get dual 7800s, non ECC ram (2 GB is fine for most high-end people you know, and probably will be in the future), DFI lanparty SLI-DR, a WD Raptor (74gb, the 36gb is trash) and massive storage from a 16mb cache Maxtor 300gb (double the amount of hdds bought if you want). Also don't get a FX-57, a X2 is much more futue proof. I would get your other components, then look at cpu. Depending on how much you have left, get the highest rated X2 you can.

And yes, get the 510w psu. PC P&C underrates their PSUs so it will actually have a highly load than another 510w PSU. You could also look at a Seasonic S12-600 (600W) if you want quiet.

Looks good.
 
wargoat said:
Greetings- I decided to build a new gaming box and want to go whole hog. To that end, I have thrown together a system on paper that looks pretty nice. The primary application of this machine will be gaming, particularly BF2, other upcoming FPS's and WoW. I want this system to be perform well for 2 to 3 years minimum. This systems falls within budget but I don't want to go too much higher. Please feel free to make suggestions or recommend alternate items.


AMD Athlon 64 FX57 San Diego 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADAFX57BNBOX
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard
(2X in SLI) XFX PVT45FYDF2 Geforce 6800Ultra 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card
CREATIVE Sound Blaster Audigy 4 Pro 8 (7.1) Channels PCI Interface Sound Card
LITE-ON Black IDE DVD Burner Model SOHW-1693S
HP Black IDE DVD Burner w/ Lightscribe Model DVD640I (Mostly want this for lightscribe.. is there a better lightscribe drive out there?)
(2X in Raid 0) Western Digital Caviar SE WD3000JD 300GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive
(2X for 4GB total) CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) ECC Registered Dual Channel
PC Power & Cooling 850 SSI SLI, EPS12V, SSI 850W Power Supply
Lian Li PC-V2100A Silver Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case
Windows XP Professional


Now here some questions- Should I go dual core or stick with the FX57? I've always liked Asus but I've considered the DFI Lanparty. Does it really matter? I'm planning to stick with air cooling with an array of 120mm fans. Is the stock heatsink/fan with the FX57 decent enough? I may convert to watercooling as oc'ing becomes necessary to keep up over time. And before anyone asks, I always like having two optical drives. I might use a different combination, but those seem good enough so far.

Thank you, I'll post pictures after I've nailed down exactly what I want and do the build..
Click to expand...

Personally I'd go with a dual core 4800+ and you MUST ditch the Registered ECC ram. The system won't boot with that. NF4 chipset doesn't support it at all. Believe me I've tried in my A8N-SLi Deluxe. It doesn't work.

Go with dual 7800GTX's and change the PSU unless you just have cash to burn.
 
1.) Loose the 850 and go 510sli unless you can realy afford a lavish supply such as that
2.)Go A8nsli-Premium , better cmos
3.) Go single 7800GTX ( as good as dual ultras and gives you an upgrade path to sli 7800's)
4.) Go dual core for future apps since the difference in performance for gaming will be marginal now but signifacant should games go multithread and they will.
5.) oh and yes loose the ECC ram
Just my .02
 
I've reconfigured the PS, RAM, graphics, and processor.

It looks pretty good speced out now.

I'll probably get the following processor:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Toledo 1GHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket 939 Dual Core Processor - OEM

Doesn't come with the heatsink and the retail box is out of stock. I'm looking at the following fan/heatsink combos:

COOLER MASTER Hyper 6+ RR-UNH-P0U1 100 mm Rifle Bearing Cooling Fan/Heatsink - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835103162

Scythe FCS-50 80mm Cooling Fan/Heatsink - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185107

ZALMAN CNPS7000B-Cu LED 2 Ball Blue LED Light Cooling Fan - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118119

Swiftech MCX6400-V Heatsink - Retail (plus a fan)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835108037

Any one of those stand out as good or present a problem? Can you recommend something else?

Thanks again, this has been very useful.
 
The only heatsink on your list that isn't just flat corny is the Zalman, but since you're blowing your nose with $100's you might as well pick up a XP-90c or XP-120 (if the mobo you decide on has room for it).
 
Am I the only one here that thinks the 850W is just barely enough? :D

Need more space.. 3 years.. yea.. 1TB min. IMO you can't back that up, so I'd do 4 x 500GB SATA drives in RAID10.

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, I'd do what I did:

1 x 72GB 15000rpm SCSI U320 drive for programs (C: )
2 x 18GB 15000rpm SCSI U320 drives in RAID0 for a swap drive on a U320 RAID card.

Mass storage as noted above. (I have 4 x 200GB in RAID10, and 1 at 400GB).

[edit] Swiftech HSF's are top notch- all I use; same goes for PCP&C [/EDIT]
 
If you are throwing money away, might aswell go water cooling to begin with instead of just wasting cash.

Like what was said before:
Kill the following:
ECC Regged ram - If you love this ram so much, use it on a server for folding.
Lightscribe - Total waste of money if I ever saw one. It cannot write in color (I'm pretty sure) and it just looks cheesy. Save the cash for a Plextor instead.
850 PP&C PSU - Go for 510...


If you still want to stay with the FX series...get a FX-55 San Deigo and overclock it. Stock + 200mhz = FX-57
 
Your wasteing a ton of money for no reason wargoat. You want it to last two or three years minimum you say but its not going to be top of the line in two or three years any more. Those components will be replaced by newer and probably much faster parts by even next year. Its a whole heck of alot smarter to buy cheaper and then upgrade every year or two then it is to spend $5,000 for a rig to last forever.

There is no point in an FX-57 or X2 4800+. If you want a single core then buy a 3700+ San Diego and if you want a dual core then buy an X2 4400+ and overclock them. They'll top out at the same speeds your going to get with those chips that cost 2x or 3x as much.

Ditch that Asus motherboard and buy a DFI NF4 board because its alot better for overclocking.

Forget the 6800 Ultra's in SLI and get a single 7800GTX which is going to give you pretty much the same performance as those two in SLI.

Get an Audigy 2 ZS instead of the Audigy 4.

Dont even think about RAID0 with two 300GB drives unless you dont care about losing all that data. Buy a single 74GB raptor and however much storage you want extra but dont run your storage drives in RAID0.

There is no way you need 4GB of RAM or even close to it. Were just starting to break the 1GB barrier for games now. 2GB is MORE then enough unless your going to run that thing as a server.

You dont need a PCP&C 850 SSI. Get a PCP&C 510 SLI, OCZ PowerStream 600w, or Seasonic S12 600w.

I mean seriously, i dont understand why people go out and spend this much money on one system. I'll spend a third or a quarter of that on top of the line components and upgrade my core components again next year and i'll have a faster system then you.
 
I don't exactly have a hardon for blowing money - what I want to accomplish is flawless performance at the maximum settings possible in the games I like now (particularly BF2 and HL2). What I have done is to assemble an affordable system over spec, but I would be very happy to save a few $K if I could comparable performance in the games I like with cheaper components. If you can propose a system that costs less but will still absolutely blow my mind I'd be very happy to hear of it. I am flexible and I recognize that this may seem indulgent to many of you, but remember that I'm just trying to build the best I can without too many compromises. ANY suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

I've never done watercooling and would be too nervous doing it on a system this expensive.. I'd have to practice on something a little cheaper to become confident with it. It'll be in a nice, cool room with good ventilation so air cooling should be sufficient through the mid term.

I replaced that goofy PSU with a lesser one and ditched the ECC... I was thinking of all the problems I have with non-ecc ram causing problems on the handful of servers at work that are non-ECC and wasn't really thinking it through. You are all absolutely correct about not wasting money on it.

I am going with the 7800GTX.

As for the sound, I plan to integrate this with my home theater. The sound will be running through a high-end stereo and the video will be projected onto a 100" screen. I want the best possible sound as any defects or cheapness in sound is extremely noticeable through my speakers.

My plan for the drives is now to use two 300GB 16MB cache maxtors without RAID for storage and two 74GB raptors in RAID 1 for OS and critical apps.

I may hold off on the second set of RAM and keep it at 2GB.. my fear there is having to buy a completely new 4GB set when I can't exactly match manufacturers or whatever.

I now like that 4800+ CPU just for the hell of it.

Nothing is stopping me from upgrading next year either :)

I'll post an updated spec sheet later tonight or tomorrow.
 
burningrave101 said:
SNIP
Click to expand...

This man speaks the truth.

RAID 0 will offer next to no performance benefits for gaming, not to mention that you'd have two points where failure could occur instead of one, and all it takes is one drive failing for you to lose all your data. Save some money and get just one Raptor and then the two 300GB drives.

Ditch the Lightscribe drive. After the disc has burned, it takes another 15-20 minutes for all the pretty artwork. For the price of those two DVD burners, get a Plextor 716-A and a cheapass DVD-ROM.

Unless you plan to play at the highest resolutions with all the eye candy cranked to the max, then even 1GB should suffice for right now.
 
jen4950 said:
WEAK!!!
Click to expand...

Well, considering I could probably power about 7 or 8 low-end systems on that monster, I figure it might be overkill. I wouldn't want that!

Lord N - I had just dropped the HP for the 716A before you said that :) Glad I made at least one good choice. I think I'll just get a nice DVD labeller.

I know I sound like a total noob- I've been building systems for years but I have a tendency to go overboard. I've never asked advice before and now I can see why I should :)
 
DVD labeling can be a bad idea. If you don't put the stickers on just right, you can get wobbles that will make the discs unplayable. Since you were going to spend extra per disc on LightScribe discs, you could just spend a little extra on inkjet printable dics. That with a printer that will print on discs would yeild nice results.

I would certainly go with the X2 proc. I can't wait until they come down to sub $200 so I can get one too (maybe next year).
 
A) It is good to see that other members are helping to spread the truth about RAID-0's numerous limitations and poor scaling in desktop performance.
B) RAID-1 on the Raptors might be slight overkill, and it is definitely no replacement for backups. RAID-1 will not protect you from a virus, corruption from running the system bus frequency too high, or a myriad of other potential causes of data loss. RAID-1 is an uptime tool, not a backup tool. When you consider that the Raptor has a 1.2 million hour MTBF and is unlikely to fail in its normal service life after the first 14 days, RAID-1 is probably a poor investment, unless you're willing to shell out $175 for uptime. That's a decision that is different for everyone.
C) The 16MB buffer Maxtor drives are an excellent choice. They will outperform the WD drives that were initally suggested.

The PCP&C PSUs are rated at 50C. The Seasonic and OCZ units are rated at 40C. This means that the PCP&C will supply a devil of a lot more power than a PSU with similar wattages but at a lower temperature (most are rated at only 25C) The 510SLI will have plenty of juice.
 
I like all the changes that you've made. It looks good. :)

For cooling, get a XP-90 or XP-120 (if the mobo can handle the XP-120, I think both the Asus A8N-SLI and DFI SLI-DR can, so it would be a good idea.)

For your fan get a Panasonic-Panaflo. Search newegg for "Panaflo 92" or "Panaflo 120" depending on which cooler you get.
 
DougLite said:
A) It is good to see that other members are helping to spread the truth about RAID-0's numerous limitations and poor scaling in desktop performance.
B) RAID-1 on the Raptors might be slight overkill, and it is definitely no replacement for backups. RAID-1 will not protect you from a virus, corruption from running the system bus frequency too high, or a myriad of other potential causes of data loss. RAID-1 is an uptime tool, not a backup tool. When you consider that the Raptor has a 1.2 million hour MTBF and is unlikely to fail in its normal service life after the first 14 days, RAID-1 is probably a poor investment, unless you're willing to shell out $175 for uptime. That's a decision that is different for everyone.
C) The 16MB buffer Maxtor drives are an excellent choice. They will outperform the WD drives that were initally suggested.

The PCP&C PSUs are rated at 50C. The Seasonic and OCZ units are rated at 40C. This means that the PCP&C will supply a devil of a lot more power than a PSU with similar wattages but at a lower temperature (most are rated at only 25C) The 510SLI will have plenty of juice.
Click to expand...

I definitely agree with the RAID1. RAID1 is an expensive and needless backup option for home users. If you want to backup your files then you should just have another single drive that you run backups on whether it be an internal or external drive ither one. You also then backup your more critical data to DVD/CD/Flash.

I think 1 or 2 74GB raptors dependeing on whether or not you want to run RAID0 on your OS drive is a viable option. RAID0 does have its benefits and it will increase things like boot times and game load times somewhat. You never want to run RAID0 on your storage drives though. If your OS drive happens to get hosed then its no big deal if you've got a backup on your storage drives. You could even make a backup image of your OS using a program like Norton Ghost.

The PCP&C 510SLI is definitely the best in terms of how much power it can provide but the OCZ and Seasonic units are very strong as well. The OCZ and Seasonic units are alot more quiet and more efficient. The OCZ unit also has easily adjustable rails with external pots and the unit has a little more flash to it with the mirror finish and green LED fan. OCZ also has about the best customer service you can find. They will crosship you a new unit before you can hardly get the old one shipped out if you have any problems.
 
burningrave101 said:
I definitely agree with the RAID1. RAID1 is an expensive and needless backup option for home users. If you want to backup your files then you should just have another single drive that you run backups on whether it be an internal or external drive ither one. You also then backup your more critical data to DVD/CD/Flash.

I think 1 or 2 74GB raptors dependeing on whether or not you want to run RAID0 on your OS drive is a viable option. RAID0 does have its benefits and it will increase things like boot times and game load times somewhat. You never want to run RAID0 on your storage drives though. If your OS drive happens to get hosed then its no big deal if you've got a backup on your storage drives. You could even make a backup image of your OS using a program like Norton Ghost.
Click to expand...
RAID-1 is not a backup at all. This is a crucial distinction that must be understood. Once again, it only protects uptime against disk failure. It does nothing to protect the integrity, authenticity, identity, etc of the data on the disk. When you write to a RAID-1 array, the write is instantly propogated to both disks - even if that write is the unintended result of a virus, corruption, malicious activity, or user error. It is no replacement for backups to removable, reliable, and physically secure backup media, such as high quality CD/DVD media or tape. Ideally, multiple copies of this media will be made and stored in multiple locations to protect against natural disaster, and the backups must be tested to verify that a restore can be performed. You may call this overkill, but this is truly what it takes to protect data. Ask any IT manager.

As for RAID-0, its benefits are limited. Only certain types of gains with large libraries stored in few files (typical of MMORPGs) and OS bootup really benefit from it on the desktop. If you run workstation level content creation applications on your desktop, they may benefit as well. Other desktop and mutlitasking models are better served by independent spindles than RAID-0.
 
I've always had the feeling that if you used fast enough drives, you would see little performance gain from using RAID for most applications. Thus, I've never used RAID before-- but with this build, I wanted to try something new and that made me consider raid.

I toyed around with the idea of buying a cartridge backup system like an internal Iomega REV drive but I haven't made a decision on that. I was thinking of using DVDs but that's a little too slow for my taste.

Then again, this system will be almost exclusively used for gaming and probably won't have any productivity software on it or significant data, so it might be completely unnecessary
 
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