Advice: need new typist's keyboard, old one died at 11 years old!

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swingdjted

Limp Gawd
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Sep 14, 2008
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Kinda hard to type a decent post when the title mostly says it all.



I've been very good about getting amazing cutting-edge technology for my computer tower and monitors, but the funny thing is, I've been pretty happy with my relatively simple old keyboard and mouse.

Up until about 2 hours ago, I've been using a Dell-branded keyboard which came with the purchase of a full computer back in 2001. I bought the system to help with my first teaching job. This old keyboard, believe it or not, is a true mechanical keyboard, meaning it has true metal springs and clicks, not rubber domes and taps. It is a typists' keyboard; with the same type of architecture of the old IBM model M, except with the added functionality of common extra keys and the ability to recognize many simultaneous key-pushes, which can be common during gaming.

That said, I am not a hardcore gamer, but I do need a keyboard that can recognize many keys being depressed at the same time, because I do game occasionally (about 2 hours each Sunday afternoon), and when I do, I tend to be very successful, and I don't want to hurt my screen name's reputation, as shallow as that sounds.

I am looking for something similar - a metal-spring keyboard good for hardcore typing, with the added functionality of multiple simultaneous pushes. I'm looking for something that continues to work well with my gell-based fabric-skinned wrist pad. It has a straight edge, meaning keyboards with a curved or bumped front won't work for me.

No, I don't want the optimus maximus keyboard. I tried one of those during a TIE conference, and it absolutely sucks for typing. Tactile feedback sucks, keys are too big, and space between keytop surfaces is too small. It's a novelty at best. I need something that gets shit done, not necessarily something to impress geeks with. If the OM kybd had the shape and feel of a regular mechanical kybd, I honestly would not mind dropping the $1500 on it, but again, it sucks for productive work.

I need something that has very well-defined bumps to indicate the f, j, and number pad 5 keys so that I can find where my fingers need to be so that I can get straight to work, without having to look. I would like the best possible tactile feedback, similar or equal to what I'm used to with the mechanical springs in the one that just died.

I do an enormous amount of typing every day for work, and then do a lot of typing with the same keyboard outside of work, so it will be worth it to put some serious time and effort into finding a good replacement.

Backlit letters/numbers would add a bit of appeal, but I wouldn't cry if I didn't get them; same goes with non-103 keys, meaning those extra programmable keys that aren't part of a standard keyboard. I don't really need extra USB ports or card readers. My tower is handy and has a lot of those.

I do need a number pad and I do need key location to be standard, meaning I don't want anything to be located in odd places. An annoyance of mine is the gross bastardization of key locations on laptops. I really don't want this happening on a desktop keyboard. In other words, I would like to reach for the delete key and hit the delete key, not something else that was mistakenly placed where the delete key belongs.

There are a decent amount of models that fit these parameters. I'm asking advice from anyone who has some input on which of these to choose.

I can no longer use the old kybd because it finally died. Each keystroke produces very random simultaneous characters, e.g. when I try to press g, I get b, g, t, 5, and F4 all at the same time with one keystroke. This happened after a liquid spill. More details on that later if anyone is curious.

PS/2 or USB, both acceptable, since I have spare ports for both on the motherboard.

I would really like black or at least dark charcoal (almost black).

Bottom line, I just really need a very high quality typist's keyboard that can occasionally be used for gaming. This last one made it 11 years. I would very much like if the replacement could do as well or better.

Thank you in advance for your time spent reading and considering this request. Your input will be very valuable to me.
 
Was your old keyboard the Dell AT101W? You can still pick those up on ebay for around $70. I believe it was just a rebranded Model M anyway, which can still be found still as well.
 
The classic Dell L100 should be all you need. I've been using this one for 5+ years now!
 
Not sure what the Dell was; the stickers were gone. This one looks promising:

http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/ClassicTrackball

The good:

*The added trackball could be helpful for precision pointing or fast mouse movements when necessary.

*buckling springs give it the mechanical IBM model M feel I'm looking for

*straight-line front will likely allow me to continue to use my gel/fabric wrist rest which I have come to love

*available in black to match my other stuff

*made in the USA if you can believe it

The bad:

*I may or may not like the look of the gray keys, although I might be able to custom order black using their customization web site. I'm torn because the gray-on-black might actually be a good thing for faster hand placement, although I normally don't look when I put my hands on a keyboard.

*it looks really big. I don't have a lot of space, meaning I may have to order without the trackball or if still too big, order a different brand.

*they didn't specify how many simultaneous keys that this keyboard recognizes.

*cant tell what is done to denote f, j, and numpad 5 keys for hand placement.

I emailed the company and asked questions on dimensions of the trackball and non-trackball models, and also asked about the simultaneous key issue, forgot to ask about the key-bumps. edit - sent another message asking about that and the return policy

Any thoughts on it?
 
EnduraPro.jpg


Does that help on your key questions? Just a thin bar along the bottom.

I've had no problems with multiple keypresses, although I know it's not N-key rollover. I use it to type, as well as play TF2, and a few other FPS games on a regular basis. I've yet to run into any issues.

I love it. The only complaints I have are with the Trackpoint it comes with not being up to snuff with the Trackpoint in Lenovo's laptops...too much play for my liking. On the keys side, it's fantastic.
 
About the Dell L100:
*rubber-dome action; not good for me. Everyone I know who has spent at least 10 minutes on a mechanical keyboard has wanted to avoid rubber-dome from then on when doing serious typing. Sadly I've been spoiled.
*no straight-line front, meaning it won't work with my wrist pad.

@ batteriesnotincluded:

I like what you have pictured. All the keys are in the right location, and I like the all black. My only complaint is that I would want labels at least on the 6-pack, on the 3-pack above it, and on the top row of numpad symbols since I actually do look down when I use those. Having all letters would be ok, or blanks in their place would be ok too, but there are certain keys that I don't have memorized.

It looks like the bumps on f, j, and numpad 5 are in the form of underscore-style dashes, which would be acceptable for me - anything that is easy to find is good.

@ bAMtan2:

As far as trackball vs. trackpoint - I'm glad you brought that up. That's something I'll have to think about a lot, because there are so many advantages and disadvantages unique to both. I almost wish I could have both on the same keyboard - maybe they'll custom make one with both since they do custom jobs?

I'm really starting to get sold on this brand of keyboard. I'll wait a bit for feedback from the company on my other emailed questions, and hopefully get some more members' opinions and options before buying anything.

Those of you who have already responded, thank you very much; it is valuable and appreciated feedback. Those who haven't responded, please feel free to attack or defend current options or add some of your own.
 
unicomp definitely makes good keyboards, there is no question about that. the only question is "do I like unicomp keyboards?" most normal people do not like big noisy keyboards.
 
Honestly, my biggest priority for my entire computer is to get quality work done, as fast as possible, and with as little physical stress as possible. There are other things, like fitting on the desk, trying to match color, etc, but really, I want myself and everything I use to produce good work.

I'm hoping that the one I'm looking at has a decent return policy, just in case it's not for me, but I'm hoping even more that I won't want to return it.

Aside from the noise and size, can any of you think of any reason I should seriously consider something other than Unicomp?
 
The Dell AT101 is a great keyboard. I have a few and actually prefer them over model M's. It uses ALPS switches. Just look for another AT101. Nothing is like them. ALPS have their own feel.
 
Easy to find a decent keyboard...near impossible to find the perfect one. So as others have said you may be simply better off buying one on ebay. From my experience cherry brown switches are the closest to alps black...(Clear is actually closer but difficult to find, black is close as well depends on exactly what part of the feel you liked best)

Rosewill 9000 series for 64 dollars with a "free" usb/battery powered speaker of reasonable quality. They offer all the different switches I lean towards the brown switches...but everyone is different. Even getting the same switches sometimes keyboards simply feel different. Sometimes that is just the break in period. Other-times it is design differences. Black and clear would be the other two I would consider trying. If I had to guess you would be semi happy with any brown switch offering. I would likely pick up a rosewill as a test and if you are 100% happy look on ebay for a dell... then you have two keyboards so if one breaks you don't have to suffer while looking for a replacement. The other keyboard I would consider ...keytronics designer lifetime series. They are affordable and comfortable to type on. Yes not mechanically, but well worth of testing. It has an exceptional old school typist feel. It would at least make an nice backup. The main negatives PS/2 only and distant F keys.(hence old school feel) Likely the most underrated keyboard on the market.

Unicomp I think has a different feel. Both feel great to me, but they are very different animals. Alps M1 was a reasonable clone, but has no where near the build quality of the dell.
 
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Just rewriting mostly, but adding Ducky keyboards black alps switch offerings as an option...I love to hear which one you end up with and how the conversion goes. I started looking at keyspacing on old keyboards compared to modern mechanical and it was exceptional close, but time and time again many typists just feel they are different. The two things I notice which the old feel keyboards had in common. The keys tended to have a slightly different shape(same size just shaped differently), but more importantly old school keyboard actually have a slight curve to the key placement. This curve was thought to reduce fatigue as keys would be easier to reach. Modern keyboards seem to have a more linear approach. In the end I think it is the mater of using any new keyboard for a month to adapt, but if you are in a high production environment where that is not an option. The other main change of keyboards is reducing the spacing to function keys on modern keyboards and reducing the overall footprint when possible.

Keytronics designer Series-Black ps2/only. old school keyboard with a near mechanical(brown) like feel. It has the curve of keyboards of old.(it was popular in the early/mid 2000s) Keytronics decided to have five different force levels for various keys to help increase typing speed and reduce fatigue. The keys where designed for 20-30 million keystrokes and I believe they still warranty them for life. The closest modern keyboard would be the topre realforce. Which is also non mechanical. The nice part is you can spend about 30 dollars and use it as a backup while searching through the various mechanical keyboards looking for the one which has a feel you enjoy. If you go to newegg you can easily see the curve designed.

Ducky DK1008XM/DK1087XM has black alps switches, but seems to be closer to modern shape... so it might feel odd if my theory on contoured shape is proven true. They are normally 45-55 dollars and use the same switches as the dell you enjoyed. Ducky does make nice keyboards.

I still think any brown switch cherry keyboard will have a close feel to the black alps designs you are accustom. The problem will become are any modern keyboards curved like the keyboards of old. The answers is not that I know of...

Unicomp keyboards are great, but they are louder than you would expect and tend to annoy others near you. It also sometimes even annoys the typist. There are some nice looking dell keyboards on ebay I would likely pick up first personally, but they might just be well cleaned.
 
Not sure if you've ever tried a Logitech Wave but it has been a saving grace for my hands & wrists. The Logitech MK550 combo is a great deal. I have one at home & at work.
 
Ponder said:
The closest modern keyboard would be the topre realforce. Which is also non mechanical.
Click to expand...

Realforce switches are actually a hybird type of switch; it uses a rubber dome membrane, but also uses a spring and capacitive actuation. They also use varying or standardized actuation force across their switches, but the cost is upwards of $250~300+, you'll be lucky to find even used for under $200.

Ponder said:
Ducky DK1008XM/DK1087XM has black alps switches, but seems to be closer to modern shape... so it might feel odd if my theory on contoured shape is proven true. They are normally 45-55 dollars and use the same switches as the dell you enjoyed. Ducky does make nice keyboards.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if their ALPS version is the same, but Ducky's DK10** series has been more of a budge line and suffers some QC issues compared to their DK90** series. Not to say that they're nearly as bad as iOne boards, but it may become a problem.

Ponder said:
Unicomp keyboards are great, but they are louder than you would expect and tend to annoy others near you. It also sometimes even annoys the typist. There are some nice looking dell keyboards on ebay I would likely pick up first personally, but they might just be well cleaned.
Click to expand...

There are ways to mod buckling-spring keyboards to dampen the noise if that's something you really prefer, it's really hard to switch from what you like no matter the annoyances, lol.
 
Skull_Angel said:
Realforce switches are actually a hybird type of switch; it uses a rubber dome membrane, but also uses a spring and capacitive actuation. They also use varying or standardized actuation force across their switches, but the cost is upwards of $250~300+, you'll be lucky to find even used for under $200.
Click to expand...

Both keytronic and topre have various force requirements for their keys. Keytronic has five different force levels, while topre has three. The springs seem to help quiet the keyboard. Interestingly enough both are rated at 30 million keystrokes. The PBT keys are really nice on the topre, but I think the keytronic keys will have a closer feel to the Original posters dell black alps keyboard. When it comes to topre the main selling point, for me, was always the variable force keys, but you are right they do offer standardized.


Skull_Angel said:
I'm not sure if their ALPS version is the same, but Ducky's DK10** series has been more of a budge line and suffers some QC issues compared to their DK90** series. Not to say that they're nearly as bad as iOne boards, but it may become a problem.
Click to expand...

My other concern would be if the keyboard was linear or contoured. Quality on the boards do seem a bit below their highend lines. The question would be if it was riskier ordering an old dell keyboard or a new ducky black alps based board.

Skull_Angel said:
There are ways to mod buckling-spring keyboards to dampen the noise if that's something you really prefer, it's really hard to switch from what you like no matter the annoyances, lol.
Click to expand...

Always a option, also the op might not be bothered by the noise in the first place.
 
So far, it seems like there are a lot more options than I had initially known about. I'm glad you mentioned the curve (the option of having a curve between spacebar row and f-key row); the dell did have this (where your fingers have to stretch a bit less because of it), and I think I'll want to keep that feature. The Unicomp company still hasn't replied to my emails, so I may have to call them. I need to find a place where I can try "cherry" switch types. I'd like to look into that.

The Dell wasn't as noisy as a Unicomp, and for now I doubt I'll mind, but even though my wife says she wouldn't mind, I am curious as to whether she will once she hears the real thing rather than a youtube of it.

I'm going to try and bring it to maybe 2-3 final choices, and then hopefully order from a place that has a good return policy. I don't mind paying return shipping for the luxury of testing models side-by-side, so long as the company will take the loser of the keyboards back.

On the other hand, you make a good point where you say it may take as much as a month to get used to a new keyboard, which means I may not know the perfect solution unless I had both for at least a month. Perhaps one at work and one at home. I'll make a decision this week.
 
Well, here it is. The first thing I noticed is that it feels heavy enough to win a fight against someone with it if I wanted to. It types like a dream. I really love the action of the keys. This feels a bit different from the old Dell, because I don't know if the Dell's metal springs actually "buckled". This Unicomp has even more resistance than the Dell, which was already a lot more than the usual rubber-dome model. I won't need an adjustment period; it already felt good for typing the minute I plugged it in. You'd think the extra resistance would tire someone more, but it seems easier to type if you ask me.

The youtubes and other sound clips out there are pretty accurate with the sound. It puts out a significant amount of sound and is full of 'clack' sounds, whereas the Dell had slightly lighter 'clicks' and normal rubber-dome keyboards have a quiet 'tap'. This isn't necessarily "loud", but enough that you need to consider your own preferences and the tolerance of the people in the same and next rooms. Luckily my wife and baby don't mind it at all. It even seems to help put the baby to sleep.

I've had it for maybe 3-4 days now and have only typed a few lesson plans, case notes, winamp posts, and picture/video tags (plus some browsing). That, to me, isn't much typing yet, but a real test will come this week when I undergo some major projects at work.

The first few times I started up the computer, it didn't respond at all to the keyboard until after I logged in with the wireless Logitech. I had to unplug and replug the Unicomp before it would be recognized after each time I logged on. For some reason, starting last night, this stopped being an issue, and I can now just log on with the Unicomp. Driver issue? Not sure.
igore.gif




Quote:
(Originally Posted by a guy on another forum)
That trackball looks about as useless as tits on a bowling ball.

Well, shit. He's right, but not because of the location of it. This trackball is pretty useless because it's not very precise. I'd need a video to really demonstrate what I mean, but perhaps this comparison between MS Paint images will help. The lines on the left were made by drawing freehand diagonally with a common everyday optical mouse (using the pencil tool). The lines on the right were made the same way with the trackball on this keyboard:



So, this must also be very old technology, but in this case, the old technology isn't such a good thing. I'm thinking about asking the company if I can exchange it for the model with the red spot mouse between the g and h keys but will first ask if it's any more precise. If not, I'll ask if I can just exchange for the model without any kind of pointer, and get some of the money back for the difference in price.

Anyway, there are a couple ways you can click with this thing. There are a set of bigger buttons on top and on the back, each of which are meant as left and right click. Use back set if you like to move the ball with your thumb or top set if you like to use your fingers. The smaller buttons on the top and back are mystery buttons. I have no idea what they do. I'm just hoping that by testing them I didn't accidentally fire nukes to some other country.
eek.gif


 
Hopefully you keep enjoying the keyboard. Nice to see what you picked. Yes buckling keys are interesting. Basically you have two sounds with keyboards. That of the key engaging and the keys themselves bottoming out. Buckling springs end up combining these sounds more than most keyboards which is why they tend to seem so loud. If they noise does not bother you then are fun to type on.
 
Ponder said:
Hopefully you keep enjoying the keyboard. Nice to see what you picked. Yes buckling keys are interesting. Basically you have two sounds with keyboards. That of the key engaging and the keys themselves bottoming out. Buckling springs end up combining these sounds more than most keyboards which is why they tend to seem so loud. If they noise does not bother you then are fun to type on.
Click to expand...

For me that's actually a plus. Have two discrete sounds on something like a Cherry Blue keyboard drives me crazy after a while. I have an older Das board, and I find the snap-CLACK on every keypress more annoying than the single, lower-pitched, more spread out clunk of a spring. Just my personal opinion of course. It's impossible to generalize on something so personal. The downside of the Unicomps, IMHO, is they just don't feel as refined as the old Model M's, or even the better quality cherry-based boards (e.g. Filco, etc.). Also, sometimes a spring will come a bit loose and start to ring, which is annoying. Fortunately it's easy to fix by removing the keycap and reseating the spring.

For my money, for pure typing and not necessarily gaming, it's:
Topre > buckling spring > Cherry > Newer Dell/ALPS AT101W

(I've never tried the older "complicated" ALPS switches)
 
Well, an incident at work (nothing bad on my part) required me to type up a rather lengthy "statement", in addition to quite a few other normal case notes and other documents that already require a pretty good amount of typing. Now I think I have a better idea of how to rate this keyboard.

First, I don't know if I have any proof that it makes me any faster at typing. Most of this stuff that I type requires that I hesitate every once in a while to make sure I am choosing my words very carefully, and even when I am on a roll, I think I'm at about the same speed I was before; I was already as fast as I needed to be to keep up without losing my train of thought. It certainly doesn't slow me down.

That said, I do, however, feel that this keyboard is a major improvement on ergonomics, because my hands really do feel less stressed after long-term typing when compared to any other keyboard I have worked with. I honestly do not feel that this is placebo effect.

It's not so much about the sound, but instead about everything else. The sound itself doesn't seem to help or hurt me or anyone else.

The weighting and resistance of the keys are such that I'm not using any energy to lift my fingers at all; the keys do that for me. Some other keyboards feel like I'm pecking at a slab of concrete. This keyboard slows my finger before impact and speeds back up on return, like a bungee cord rather than a ping pong ball bounce.

The concaving of each keytop is a good fit for my fingers and feels much better than flat topped keys, although this is a feature found on many keyboards. Also, the curve you see on the picture to the right of the keys shows an ergonomic feature which allows a user to move his/her fingers less when moving above or below the home row, and it helps address the resulting change in angle of finger depression. It's consistent for letters and numpad. This is something that I've found to make typing feel more natural. I had to edit the photo - brightness and contrast because it was too dark to see otherwise.

 
Metaluna said:
For me that's actually a plus. Have two discrete sounds on something like a Cherry Blue keyboard drives me crazy after a while. I have an older Das board, and I find the snap-CLACK on every keypress more annoying than the single, lower-pitched, more spread out clunk of a spring. Just my personal opinion of course. It's impossible to generalize on something so personal. The downside of the Unicomps, IMHO, is they just don't feel as refined as the old Model M's, or even the better quality cherry-based boards (e.g. Filco, etc.). Also, sometimes a spring will come a bit loose and start to ring, which is annoying. Fortunately it's easy to fix by removing the keycap and reseating the spring.
Click to expand...

There are more then one type of cherry keyboard not all of them have the snap-clack. Unicomps are closer to lexmarks keyboard than the good old M..but that is difficult to avoid. Computer were thousands of dollars and as prices declined the less they could spend on a keyboard.

Metaluna said:
For my money, for pure typing and not necessarily gaming, it's:Topre > buckling spring > Cherry > Newer Dell/ALPS AT101W
Click to expand...

My problem with topre keyboards is that most users will balk at three-hundred dollars no mater how good a keyboard feels. Without them being common in the retail channel most users can not even test them out. Even so a majority of users would find a keytronics keyboard close enough and save two-hundred-seventy dollars. They both are based on dome tech. They are both rated to the same thirty million keystrokes. They both have multiple force requirements based on key placement.(keytronics has five, topre's one or three) They will both last ten years. They are both great to type on. Unicomps are nice for people who need the oldschool feel and would prefer not to buy a three-hundred dollar keyboard.(or hate how domes feel) Cherry keyboards all seem modern in design... I would leave them off my list as old school designs are better for those who are accustom to them. I would love to see a cherry based old school keyboard, but none of the makers seem to feel it is worthwhile tooling said design.(it might not be reasonably possible)(not sure any cherry keyboards have ever had said design)
 
Glad you like the keyboard overall. Not surprised about the energy return, it is the main advantage of a spring.

swingdjted said:
The concaving of each keytop is a good fit for my fingers and feels much better than flat topped keys, although this is a feature found on many keyboards. Also, the curve you see on the picture to the right of the keys shows an ergonomic feature which allows a user to move his/her fingers less when moving above or below the home row, and it helps address the resulting change in angle of finger depression. It's consistent for letters and numpad. This is something that I've found to make typing feel more natural. I had to edit the photo - brightness and contrast because it was too dark to see otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yes that is the key feature of an old schools typist keyboard. Modern keyboards do away with it... which I think is an overall negative. You can reduce the issue slightly with a good wrist rest or relatively flat keyboard.

Glad you like the keyboard. I think for the most part everyone in the forum tries exceptionally hard to make sure users can find the right keyboard for them.
 
Ponder said:
There are more then one type of cherry keyboard not all of them have the snap-clack. Unicomps are closer to lexmarks keyboard than the good old M..but that is difficult to avoid. Computer were thousands of dollars and as prices declined the less they could spend on a keyboard.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, when Lexmark stopped making those keyboards, Unicomp literally bought the machines from them. So they are indeed pretty closely related.

My problem with topre keyboards is that most users will balk at three-hundred dollars no mater how good a keyboard feels. Without them being common in the retail channel most users can not even test them out. Even so a majority of users would find a keytronics keyboard close enough and save two-hundred-seventy dollars.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I was just mentioning Topre because I like them so much, but I don't generally advocate hard for them, because the prices (especially lately) are so ridiculous that they are kind of a poor value IMHO. They have really skyrocketed in the past couple of years. When I got mine it was, I think, under $200 (still quite pricey). I'm not sure what's going on with them, but I have seen the prices fluctuate substantially (both up and down) over time.

I haven't tried any Keytronics recently so I can't comment there.
 
Metaluna said:
As I understand it, when Lexmark stopped making those keyboards, Unicomp literally bought the machines from them. So they are indeed pretty closely related.
Click to expand...

You are right, but it needs to be added that Lexmark did the same thing when buying from IBM, meaning the keyboards remain unchanged since IBM made their last few model M's with Windows keys and trackballs.

Even on mine you'll see where the production equipment would have left room for the IBM logo and the speaker underneath. There is also a place where the old detachable spiral cord would have been plugged in, and a convexed "Model M +5V" label in the plastic backing.

That said there are a couple differences: plastic color, non-detachable/non-spiral USB cord, Unicomp label on right rather than IBM label on the left.

Someday I'll try some Cherry-based keyboards; as I'm guessing they're pretty good too. I just went with this because I had heard so many recommendations all over the net especially here. So far, so good.

Thank you for all the help.
 
I came to suggest the Unicomp, but it seems you've already got that handled.

If you don't mind a TKL, look into a HHKB Pro!
 
Just a final follow-up, so far so good with the keyboard. I feel like I can type longer before becoming achy or fatigued. I'm very grateful for having a forum like this with members that give good input. Thank you.
 
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