Advice for First Water Cooled Computer - ~$3k Budget

[Rickswan]

The problem is that the GTX 590 power subsystem is really poor in reference versions, and is barely able to overclock well. The 590 uses two GTX 580 cores, but are severely downclocked. And the 590 is barely able to overclock to 580 levels, which makes it slightly worse than SLI 580's.

The 6990 on the other hand has a good power delivery system. It uses two 6970 cores, downclocked like the 590, but is able to overclock to 6970 levels. And it will overclock to about 90% or so of 6970 levels, and usually it's more thermal limited. Put it on water, and it'll probably overclock like a regular 6970. That's what makes the 6990 better than the 590, even though the 6970 core is only approximately equivalent to the 570 core.

The 570 reference PCB is identical to the 580 PCB, and in fact identical to the 480 PCB. That means blocks designed for the 580 will fit 570 and 480 cards. However, you still run into the RAM problem, 570's only have 1.2gb.

So the 590 doesn't sound good, due to its problems with overclocking. I have heard lots of support for SLI 570s, that they are equivalent to and better than a 590 when overclocked. Also, SLI 580s, but that's insanely expensive (about $1,250). How would a 6990 stack up to SLI'd 570s (or 580s)?

Those blocks probably will not fit the 570 HD. The HD is a non-reference design, so where things are laid out are probably different. There's a chance that it will fit, but there's also a good chance it won't.

Hmm, the only thing I could find for a "non-reference HD" block was [this], and I haven't heard good things about EK.

 

[Tsumi]

EK blocks are fine. They shouldn't give you any problems. The problems only existed with the nickel plated products, and that was several months ago. It's just the customer support/public relations was really bad.

As I said, a stock 6970 is about equivalent to slightly more powerful than a stock 570. Overclocked 6990 will probably match or beat overclocked SLI 570's. Plus, you won't have the RAM limitations with a 6990, and you only have to buy one waterblock vs two. SLI 580s will definitely beat a single 6990. But the 6990 will be much cheaper, and for the cost of two 580s you can probably get a 6990 and a 6970, which will beat two 580s.

 

[Rickswan]

EK blocks are fine. They shouldn't give you any problems. The problems only existed with the nickel plated products, and that was several months ago. It's just the customer support/public relations was really bad.

I see, mostly a PR issue you're saying.

As I said, a stock 6970 is about equivalent to slightly more powerful than a stock 570. Overclocked 6990 will probably match or beat overclocked SLI 570's. Plus, you won't have the RAM limitations with a 6990, and you only have to buy one waterblock vs two. SLI 580s will definitely beat a single 6990. But the 6990 will be much cheaper, and for the cost of two 580s you can probably get a 6990 and a 6970, which will beat two 580s.

Any 6990 waterblocks you recommend?

As for RAM, I have my sights on Corsair Dominator 16 GB 4 x 4 GB PC3-10666 1333mHz 240-pin CAS 9 - I haven't heard anyone comment on that choice of RAM so I can only assume it's good.

Also, anyone have experience with a Caselabs M10 or MH10 case? Do the M10 or MH10 by Caselabs have room to fit two standard triple radiators (like [this] one) on top, or would I need the optional 64mm top cover, since the M10/MH10 have only 59mm of clearance above the MB tray instead of the M8's 100mm? Then would another rad or two fit inside the case? And should I reverse the ATX layout?

Basically, how much cooling equipment can go in one of these cases, and what would you pick on the Caselabs order page? i.e. would you pick the optional 64mm top cover? Would you have the ATX layout reversed?

< an M10 by Caselabs

 

[Rickswan]

Hello, I've been at http://www.realredraider.com hard at work figuring out my build. Turns out a few things have changed, and I'd like to hear [Hard|Forum&#8482;'s take on it.

BUDGET UPDATE:

1. Caselabs TH10 = ~$520
2. ASUS P8P67 LE B3 and Intel Core i7-2600K Bundle = ~$480
3. 2 MCP655's = ~$93 (x2 = ~$186)
4. Black Ice® SR1-480 Quad Radiator = ~$150, so x2 = ~$300
5. 16GB Corsair Dominator RAM = ~$160
6. A 256GB Crucial SSD = ~$380
7. WD Caviar Green 2 TB Internal hard drive 600 MBps = ~$145
8. Indigo Xtreme&#8482; Engineered Thermal Interface (ETI) Kit = ~$25
9. Distilled Water = like $2
10. a silver killcoil = ~$5
11. Aqua Computer Cuplex Kryos HF = ~$85 or Watercool HEATKILLER® CPU Rev3.0 = ~$80 (so let's just say $85)
12. Bitspower fittings if I go for compression = ~$30 or so
13. 1/2" or 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD tubing (whatevs) = ~$20
14. StealthRes 275 Multi-Option Reservoir = ~$55
15. Gentle Typhoon fans = ~$17, so around 9 = ~$153

= ~$2,546. I didn't include the graphics card in that because I have two other threads going to try and figure that out [here] & [here], but let's just assume I'm going with the most expensive of the setups I'm looking at - SLI 580's (~$505 apiece) using Watecool HEATKILLER GPU-X³ (~$100 apiece) waterblocks. That's ~$1,210, bringing the total to around $3,756 (not including the AX1200 PSU I already have)

 

[Tsumi]

Looking very good so far. Looking forward to when it's completely built.

 

[GoldenTiger]

As for RAM, I have my sights on Corsair Dominator 16 GB 4 x 4 GB PC3-10666 1333mHz 240-pin CAS 9 - I haven't heard anyone comment on that choice of RAM so I can only assume it's good.

16GB of DDR3 1333 RAM runs around $70 on newegg generally (4x 4GB)... that "dominator" ram is way overpriced there on amazon. Also 1.5v VDIMM spec is preferable for Sandy Bridge, less stress on the IMC and therefore better CPU overclock. I can see budgeting isn't a big concern of yours judging by the overall build, but if you're going to spend $160 at least get 2133 DIMMs for the extra 3-4% performance over 1333 ones, or even 1866 with low CAS latency .

Example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231455 $70/8GB as of this post, buy two kits = joy .

 

[Rickswan]

Looking very good so far. Looking forward to when it's completely built.

Thanks!

16GB of DDR3 1333 RAM runs around $70 on newegg generally (4x 4GB)... that "dominator" ram is way overpriced there on amazon. Also 1.5v VDIMM spec is preferable for Sandy Bridge, less stress on the IMC and therefore better CPU overclock. I can see budgeting isn't a big concern of yours judging by the overall build, but if you're going to spend $160 at least get 2133 DIMMs for the extra 3-4% performance over 1333 ones, or even 1866 with low CAS latency .

Example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231455 $70/8GB as of this post, buy two kits = joy .

Hmm... RAM is something I've been neglecting to look into. I took the time to get better acquainted with some specs of RAM (such as what CAS latency and speed in MHz means) and since I am planning on getting a different mobo (HardOCP's gold-awarded Maximus IV Extreme), I checked out what it's capable of handling - DDR3 2200(O.C.)/2133(O.C.)/1866(O.C.)/1600/1333 - so yeah, you're totally right dude, I'm going with two sets of the G.Skill Ripjaws-X 8GB RAM you suggested! That'll still come out to ~$140, but at least it's superior to the Dominator RAM as far as speed goes. I'll also learn how to overclock it once I get it...

So let me readjust for the changes:
BUDGET UPDATE:

1. Caselabs TH10 = ~$520
2. ASUS Maximus IV Extreme Republic of Gamers = ~$310
3. i7 2600k = ~$315
4. 2 MCP655's = ~$93 (x2 = ~$186)
5. Black Ice® SR1-480 Quad Radiator = ~$150, so x2 = ~$300
6. G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 = ~$70 (x2 = ~$140)
7. A 256GB Crucial SSD = ~$380
8. Seagate Barracuda XT 2 TB Internal hard drive - 600 MBps - 7200 rpm = ~$150
9. Indigo Xtreme™ Engineered Thermal Interface (ETI) Kit = ~$25
10. Distilled Water = like $2
11. a silver killcoil = ~$5
12. Aqua Computer Cuplex Kryos HF = ~$85 or Watercool HEATKILLER® CPU Rev3.0 = ~$80 (so let's just say $85)
13. Bitspower fittings if I go for compression = ~$30 or so
14. 1/2" or 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD tubing (whatevs) = ~$20
15. StealthRes 275 Multi-Option Reservoir = ~$55
16. Gentle Typhoon fans = ~$17, so around 8 = ~$136

= ~$2,659 (Goes up every time ). Assuming I go for SLI 580's (~$505 apiece) using Watecool HEATKILLER GPU-X³ (~$100 apiece) waterblocks. That's ~$1,210, bringing the total to around $3,869 (not including the AX1200 PSU I already have)

 

[Tsumi]

For RAM, speed is determined by two things: frequency (mhz) and CAS latency.

If frequency is the same, lower CAS latency equals higher speed. If CAS latency is the same, higher frequency equals higher speed.

This might be a good option for some cheap fans.

 

[dozerawd]

Well, I do have to say that for your first watercooled build, you picked a doozy. I applaud you diving in head first but slow down a second! This type of watercooling takes time to design, build, test and actually work correctly. IF you do it incorrectly, you could not only blow the 3.5k in parts, but also have a worse performing system than on air. Ask any experienced extreme watercooler, it takes a stupid amount of time to design the system correctly and more time to build it correctly, maintain it and actually have it perform the way it is suppose to. Let me ask a couple of questions:

First things first, what EXACTLY are you going to be using this computer for (Gaming, Video Editing, Ripping) ?
What size are your monitor(s) and do you want to run Surround or Eyefinity?
Have you ever OC'd before?

I am not knocking but only trying to figure out the best way to assist you like all the other fine Hard members have been doing! From what I see, and your budget, you could do just about anything you want. Considering this is your first build, running on pure distilled is a little brave because if there is a leak, adios kick ass system! Look into a non-conductive liquid to start you out. I did notice that your budget regarding some watercooling material is incorrect in price.

Tubing
First, not all tubing is the same. There are a lot of brands, sizes and models. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but at $20.00, that won't cut it. Some tubing won't work with some compression fittings aka Feser. Some tubing is so cheap that not only do they stain if you run dye, but they get so hard that you have a better shot at cutting it off instead of removing it. Choose wisely and don't skimp. Compare the tubing to the veins in your body. You don't need top of the line but don't buy cheap. You won't regret it on the long haul.

Fittings
Compression fittings not only make a build look great, but they also are ridiculously expensive. Again, some compression fittings won't fit on certain tubing. Not all fittings are the same either. Some are a little more restrictive then others, but considering you have $30.00 listed for fittings and albeit Bitspower compression fittings.....If this is the case then I want the dealer you are buying them from. From your current build, I am guessing you would need at least 14 fittings! At 8.00 a pop, that is roughly $112.00 and that is if you only get straight fittings. Elbows, 90's and so on cost a hell of a lot more. I would advise that you get some paper, draw your case out and figure out the flow of the fluid from pump, to res, to whatever and see if you need any special fittings. It is a lot easier to do with with a case in hand.

Have you thought about a seperate power supply for JUST the watercooling and one JUST for the PC? The case is large enough to handle it for sure, but keeping one pump on one PS and the other pump on the other might not be bad idea. What about running dual loops ( 1 for mobo / cpu and 1 for GPU's )?

The 6990's are LOUD, hot and power hungry. Either go with 3 x 6970's or 2 x 580's. I personally would go with 2 x 580's 3gb because till this day, I can not stand ATI with their flaky drivers and long waited fixes.

Change the SSD to a Sandforce controller. Read 550's read and 500 writes. Look into the new samsung 830, Corsair GT or Patriot Wildfire.

Change your memory to a 16G kit with matching dimms. Same as the kit you have but cheaper:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231456

Wait on the 2TB drive till this Friday. With mechanical drives being so high from the flood in Thailand, hunt for the best deal.

Good luck!

 

[Rickswan]

Well, I do have to say that for your first watercooled build, you picked a doozy. I applaud you diving in head first

Why, thank you

but slow down a second! This type of watercooling takes time to design, build, test and actually work correctly. IF you do it incorrectly, you could not only blow the 3.5k in parts, but also have a worse performing system than on air. Ask any experienced extreme watercooler, it takes a stupid amount of time to design the system correctly and more time to build it correctly, maintain it and actually have it perform the way it is suppose to. Let me ask a couple of questions:

First things first, what EXACTLY are you going to be using this computer for (Gaming, Video Editing, Ripping) ?
What size are your monitor(s) and do you want to run Surround or Eyefinity?
Have you ever OC'd before?

I have not overclocked anything of my own before, but I have along with my friends overclocked their computers before (very cautiously). I am using a single 40" Sony Bravia 120hz Television as my display. I will be using this computer for all of the above; Video Editing/Rendering, Gaming, etc.

I am not knocking but only trying to figure out the best way to assist you like all the other fine Hard members have been doing! From what I see, and your budget, you could do just about anything you want. Considering this is your first build, running on pure distilled is a little brave because if there is a leak, adios kick ass system! Look into a non-conductive liquid to start you out. I did notice that your budget regarding some watercooling material is incorrect in price.

I appreciate the help and I try to take all advice in objectively. I am very cautious, especially considering how much time and money are going into this build - I have a PSU tester, and will be sure to test the loop without any components in, probably for 24 hours. I'll put paper towel everywhere and keep a close eye on it and the whole shebang. I'll probably be following a leak testing guide such as this [this].

Tubing
First, not all tubing is the same. There are a lot of brands, sizes and models. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but at $20.00, that won't cut it. Some tubing won't work with some compression fittings aka Feser. Some tubing is so cheap that not only do they stain if you run dye, but they get so hard that you have a better shot at cutting it off instead of removing it. Choose wisely and don't skimp. Compare the tubing to the veins in your body. You don't need top of the line but don't buy cheap. You won't regret it on the long haul.

Are there any brands (and amounts) you suggest?

Fittings
Compression fittings not only make a build look great, but they also are ridiculously expensive. Again, some compression fittings won't fit on certain tubing. Not all fittings are the same either. Some are a little more restrictive then others, but considering you have $30.00 listed for fittings and albeit Bitspower compression fittings.....If this is the case then I want the dealer you are buying them from. From your current build, I am guessing you would need at least 14 fittings! At 8.00 a pop, that is roughly $112.00 and that is if you only get straight fittings. Elbows, 90's and so on cost a hell of a lot more. I would advise that you get some paper, draw your case out and figure out the flow of the fluid from pump, to res, to whatever and see if you need any special fittings. It is a lot easier to do with with a case in hand.

Honestly, I was planning to go with barbs & clamps for starters. If I decide to go with Compression, though, I'll be sure to map it out like you said.

Have you thought about a seperate power supply for JUST the watercooling and one JUST for the PC? The case is large enough to handle it for sure, but keeping one pump on one PS and the other pump on the other might not be bad idea. What about running dual loops ( 1 for mobo / cpu and 1 for GPU's )?

I see nothing wrong with doing that, but for whatever reason I feel like sticking with the one.

The 6990's are LOUD, hot and power hungry. Either go with 3 x 6970's or 2 x 580's. I personally would go with 2 x 580's 3gb because till this day, I can not stand ATI with their flaky drivers and long waited fixes.

Oh, haha, I made two whole threads on the GPU topic on another forum. I eventually decided on SLI 580s for a variety of reasons, but then I further decided to wait until Kepler arrives (projected Q1 2012). This is the new GTX 600 series of Nvidia cards, and even if I were to get the 500 series, I may as well wait and see if there is a price drop when the 600 series arrives.

Also, it is a possibility that Intel's Ivy Bridge may arrive in Q1, so if all goes well, Ivy Bridge and Kepler could be out in March and I can finally get everything (although it may arrive Q2 2012).

Change the SSD to a Sandforce controller. Read 550's read and 500 writes. Look into the new samsung 830, Corsair GT or Patriot Wildfire.

I checked out SandForce, and found out they don't make SSD's, they make flash memory controllers for SSDs & sell them to manufacturers who make the SSDs. Looking for your suggestions, I found [this] Corsair GT (~$405), and [this] Patriot Wildfire (~$440). BTW, I want no less than 240GB of space for my main drive, I just do.

Change your memory to a 16G kit with matching dimms. Same as the kit you have but cheaper:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231456

Say, thanks! I've heard that getting a whole kit is better than getting them separate, why is that?

Wait on the 2TB drive till this Friday. With mechanical drives being so high from the flood in Thailand, hunt for the best deal.

I actually was planning to get everything at the same time. I've heard that prior to Black Friday, shops raise prices, then on Black Friday they return the prices to normal making appear as though customers are getting a smashing deal. I don't know if this is true of the computer components industry. That's just something I've heard.

Good luck!

Thank you for all your advice! For now, per your suggestions, I'll tentatively change the SSD and RAM I plan to purchase to [this] Corsair GT (~$405) or [this] Patriot Wildfire (~$440) and [this] G.Skill Ripjaws 16GB kit (~$140).

 

[Tsumi]

For tubing, if you want UV-reactive tubing, I would recommend Primochill LRT tubing. I personally use it, and it's fairly good. Haven't had any experience with other tubing though. Tygon seems to be the favorite as far as clear tubing goes, and Feser also comes recommended. Although, Feser and Tygon are much more expensive than Primochill. As for how much, you should estimate the distances between each component, and then add ~3 feet for bends and possible errors. I would get more extra in your case, because you're working in a large case.

Getting a whole kit together is usually better because it ensures all of the RAM will work together at the rated speed. Although, this is much less of a concern than it was in the past.

I wouldn't concern about getting the absolute best SSD, because it translates into very little real world performance difference.

As for regarding the sales, in some cases it is true, and in other cases it isn't. You just have to know what the general going prices are in order to tell the difference. I wouldn't count on being able to buy a cheap HD anytime soon though.

 

[Rickswan]

For tubing, if you want UV-reactive tubing, I would recommend Primochill LRT tubing. I personally use it, and it's fairly good. Haven't had any experience with other tubing though. Tygon seems to be the favorite as far as clear tubing goes, and Feser also comes recommended. Although, Feser and Tygon are much more expensive than Primochill. As for how much, you should estimate the distances between each component, and then add ~3 feet for bends and possible errors. I would get more extra in your case, because you're working in a large case.

Hmm, so I think about 6 feet would cover everything, 9 would certainly be good I think. If you use Primochill I can't see anything wrong with using it myself.

Getting a whole kit together is usually better because it ensures all of the RAM will work together at the rated speed. Although, this is much less of a concern than it was in the past.

That's what I thought, that they would somehow be optimized to operate with each other better in a kit. The kit dozerawd suggested seems like it'll do the trick.

I wouldn't concern about getting the absolute best SSD, because it translates into very little real world performance difference.

Hmm, I suppose I'll focus more on storage capacity and good reviews then

As for regarding the sales, in some cases it is true, and in other cases it isn't. You just have to know what the general going prices are in order to tell the difference. I wouldn't count on being able to buy a cheap HD anytime soon though.

Logical advice as always, thank you Tsumi. I'll see if there are any amazing deals going on, otherwise I'll continue to wait.

 

[That's_Corporate]

with all that money, why not spend it on insane hardware?

i love water-cooling, but in no way will it ever replace better hardware when it comes to enhancing your gaming experience - the minor overclocking headroom you gain just doesn't equal noticeable FPS gains in the majority of situations

i say get an extreme edition intel chip, go crazy on video cards, get an audiophile sound card, audiophile speakers, etc... and stay on high-end, trouble-free, air cooling

 

[Rickswan]

with all that money, why not spend it on insane hardware?

i love water-cooling, but in no way will it ever replace better hardware when it comes to enhancing your gaming experience - the minor overclocking headroom you gain just doesn't equal noticeable FPS gains in the majority of situations

i say get an extreme edition intel chip, go crazy on video cards, get an audiophile sound card, audiophile speakers, etc... and stay on high-end, trouble-free, air cooling

Well in a sense, I'm doing both. The last time I did an estimate, it was closer to the $4,000 mark than $3,000. I am at present waiting for the next gen of GPUs (Kepler, the GTX 600-series) so I can get the latest & greatest. Same goes for Ivy Bridge processors, but if it turns out that isn't being released until Q2 2012, I may just get a placeholder. I totally get where you're coming from, if I were to put 80% of the budget into cooling and 20% into the hardware, that would just be wrong. Instead, I am getting the best hardware I can get (while still at a reasonable price) AND water cooling - expensive as hell, but still a win-win scenario! Plus, the water cooling equipment can be used well into the future, whereas hardware is surpassed every 6 months or so - I splurge on it now, I don't have to later... and water is just so cool

 

[That's_Corporate]

Well in a sense, I'm doing both. The last time I did an estimate, it was closer to the $4,000 mark than $3,000. I am at present waiting for the next gen of GPUs (Kepler, the GTX 600-series) so I can get the latest & greatest. Same goes for Ivy Bridge processors, but if it turns out that isn't being released until Q2 2012, I may just get a placeholder. I totally get where you're coming from, if I were to put 80% of the budget into cooling and 20% into the hardware, that would just be wrong. Instead, I am getting the best hardware I can get (while still at a reasonable price) AND water cooling - expensive as hell, but still a win-win scenario! Plus, the water cooling equipment can be used well into the future, whereas hardware is surpassed every 6 months or so - I splurge on it now, I don't have to later... and water is just so cool

i hear ya - water cooling is certainly cool!
i love a good water cooling build as much as the next [H]omie

but if what you want is the best gaming experience possible, and have a set budget, your money is best spent on hardware. once you have all of the absolute BEST hardware you could possibly have (590 in SLI, intel extreme chip, asus ROG mobo), only THEN should you even consider water cooling. the whole "reasonable price" thing makes me think you're doing a WC loop just because. that's fine. but just realize that you can get more FPS by spending that WC money on hardware.

oh, and remember, you'll need new full-cover water-blocks each time you change video cards (which, should be frequent if you want to stay somewhat current). that can get expensive, and somewhat annoying to disassemble the loop

 

[Tsumi]

with all that money, why not spend it on insane hardware?

i love water-cooling, but in no way will it ever replace better hardware when it comes to enhancing your gaming experience - the minor overclocking headroom you gain just doesn't equal noticeable FPS gains in the majority of situations

i say get an extreme edition intel chip, go crazy on video cards, get an audiophile sound card, audiophile speakers, etc... and stay on high-end, trouble-free, air cooling

Watercooling is not about best performance per dollar, never was, never will be.

For some it's about the silence it can offer.

For most it's about the hobby. It's about the satisfaction of putting something together that looks and performs well, regardless of cost. And that's the real draw of watercooling

 

[That's_Corporate]

Watercooling is not about best performance per dollar, never was, never will be.

For some it's about the silence it can offer.

For most it's about the hobby. It's about the satisfaction of putting something together that looks and performs well, regardless of cost. And that's the real draw of watercooling

i know

that's why i prefixed my rant with "if you want the best gaming experience possible"

if you want the best SILENT cooling possible, then yes, you're absolutely right

 

[Stupid_Newbie]

Thats why I'm going wc, even though playing skyrim I didnt even really hear my rig.

 

[Rickswan]

Watercooling is not about best performance per dollar, never was, never will be.

For some it's about the silence it can offer.

For most it's about the hobby. It's about the satisfaction of putting something together that looks and performs well, regardless of cost. And that's the real draw of watercooling

You pretty much nailed it on the head

Thats why I'm going wc, even though playing skyrim I didnt even really hear my rig.

That's right, it's silent, fun, and I don't remember them mentioning it - but a must for extreme overclocking...

 

[dozerawd]

I have run watercooled pc'c since the first Koolance PC came out. I have been on both sides of the fence with watercooling as well ( broken fitting blew everyone once ). Currently I run a dual loop with 2 x XSPC radiators, 2 x microres's, 1 x 655 modded with replacement top and black sparkle shinyness, 1 x 355 xspc mod top, 2 x 120mm Yate Loons, 8 x Scythe Slipstreams, with video and northbridge on 1 loop and cpu and mosfets on the second. Watercooling is a little bit of both worlds as everyone is saying. It offers the silence ( get a fan controller for the fans ), and the performance. I also do it because personally I like to build things and mod them. Hell, I have all of this in a Coolermaster Cosmos that i completely un-riveted and modded for everything to fit together and look like a stock case! Countless hours!

The funny thing about Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge is that their thermals are so low, watercooling does not really benefit that much. You may get an extra 200mhz out of the chip but in real world, we're talking about 1 more frame here and there. Now the Sandy Bridge-E's need watercooling for OCing because they run stupid hot. You can run a HS/FAN but you can get the same performance on water with half the noise.

As someone has already stated, a matched set of memory means that the chips will all work at the rated speeds. If you mix and match memory, you have a very good chance that you will run into issues depending on the individual dimms. Keep in mind that larger sticks of memory / more sticks of memory makes OCing more difficult. If you look at some people OCing with ridiculously high speeds, they are running 2 sticks of 2g modules. It is easier to OC that than 4 sticks of 8g modules. Personally if I had that budget, I would not waste time on 16g. I would max out my board and run a Ram Drive with some of my ripping programs. You can't beat 5-8Gb/s!

You are correct with sandforce, they are a controller company. Before you buy an SSD, make sure these things are present:

1. Check with type of nand the drive is running
2. nand choices in order: Toggle nand, synchronous nand, asynchronous nand ( not good )
3. get a larger drive than you would thing you need. 90g fills up fast and I would go no less than 120g for a boot and primary programs

Intel did release that they will support TRIM on Raid-0 for the RST11 drivers! So......you "could" roll with 2 x 120g SSD's and potentially run 900 - 1000 read and 800 - 900 writes! But, as with any Raid-0 setup, you have the potential to lose everything if a drive fails so a good backup procedure is key. The Corsair Force GT drives are good and they currently run synchronous nand. The OCZ Max OPS Editions run toggle so choosing an SSD is kinda like choosing a power supply. The higher a price of an SSD more than likely means better chips and higher speeds ( more than likely but check review's first ). Choosing a power supply almost comes down to which is heavier! The heavier it is more than likely means bigger and better capacitors.

Tubing wise, dont go cheap so Home Depot is out! Primochill has ok tubing but it can kink because it is so soft. Tygon is the most used because of all the choices. I do not like thin walled tubing because of the chance of a kink. I use Feser because of the wall thickness, non-restrictive flow and bend radius is high. And going forward, 6' is not enough. For my double loop, which really doesn't take up much space, I used 15.5' of tubing. I bought 17' because i knew I would cut 1 run run wrong and I did. You will probably need about that considering the size of your case, amount of radiators and pumps. I would not order the tubing until I had all of my parts including all watercooling parts. Mock build the system and figure out the direction of flow for your liquid. Then get string and measure out each run from each device. Add up the total amount of string then order the tubing. You will be surprised at how much you really need. I am guessing that watercooling components on your build will be around 700.00 plus or minus a little bit.

I am waiting for Kepler as well but I am guessing it will be Q2 2012. I know there was a slow down because of the die shrink but even when it gets released, I am waiting a few weeks to see how good it really is. You might see some Ivy Bridge CPU's out right before Christmas with the Ivy Bridge-E's following early Q2 2012 ( I hope! ). If you are going to wait for Keplar, wait for Ivy Bridge-E.

 

[Rickswan]

I have run watercooled pc'c since the first Koolance PC came out. I have been on both sides of the fence with watercooling as well ( broken fitting blew everyone once ). Currently I run a dual loop with 2 x XSPC radiators, 2 x microres's, 1 x 655 modded with replacement top and black sparkle shinyness, 1 x 355 xspc mod top, 2 x 120mm Yate Loons, 8 x Scythe Slipstreams, with video and northbridge on 1 loop and cpu and mosfets on the second. Watercooling is a little bit of both worlds as everyone is saying. It offers the silence ( get a fan controller for the fans ), and the performance. I also do it because personally I like to build things and mod them. Hell, I have all of this in a Coolermaster Cosmos that i completely un-riveted and modded for everything to fit together and look like a stock case! Countless hours!

Hardcore dude!

The funny thing about Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge is that their thermals are so low, watercooling does not really benefit that much. You may get an extra 200mhz out of the chip but in real world, we're talking about 1 more frame here and there. Now the Sandy Bridge-E's need watercooling for OCing because they run stupid hot. You can run a HS/FAN but you can get the same performance on water with half the noise.

Well there's also the GPU to cool, but as you mentioned it's also about the experience of putting the thing together.

As someone has already stated, a matched set of memory means that the chips will all work at the rated speeds. If you mix and match memory, you have a very good chance that you will run into issues depending on the individual dimms. Keep in mind that larger sticks of memory / more sticks of memory makes OCing more difficult. If you look at some people OCing with ridiculously high speeds, they are running 2 sticks of 2g modules. It is easier to OC that than 4 sticks of 8g modules. Personally if I had that budget, I would not waste time on 16g. I would max out my board and run a Ram Drive with some of my ripping programs. You can't beat 5-8Gb/s!

Thanks for the input. Doesn't more RAM improve video editing and multitasking?

You are correct with sandforce, they are a controller company. Before you buy an SSD, make sure these things are present:

1. Check with type of nand the drive is running
2. nand choices in order: Toggle nand, synchronous nand, asynchronous nand ( not good )
3. get a larger drive than you would thing you need. 90g fills up fast and I would go no less than 120g for a boot and primary programs

Intel did release that they will support TRIM on Raid-0 for the RST11 drivers! So......you "could" roll with 2 x 120g SSD's and potentially run 900 - 1000 read and 800 - 900 writes! But, as with any Raid-0 setup, you have the potential to lose everything if a drive fails so a good backup procedure is key. The Corsair Force GT drives are good and they currently run synchronous nand. The OCZ Max OPS Editions run toggle so choosing an SSD is kinda like choosing a power supply. The higher a price of an SSD more than likely means better chips and higher speeds ( more than likely but check review's first ). Choosing a power supply almost comes down to which is heavier! The heavier it is more than likely means bigger and better capacitors.

So, do you suggest Corsair Force GT and OCZ Max OPS then? I couldn't find specific examples of those drives. Perhaps I'll look into a RAID-0 setup, what drives would I need to get to obtain those read/write speeds you speak of? I want to go with no less than 240GB of storage with my main drive. Currently, my laptop has a 500GB HDD.

Tubing wise, dont go cheap so Home Depot is out! Primochill has ok tubing but it can kink because it is so soft. Tygon is the most used because of all the choices. I do not like thin walled tubing because of the chance of a kink. I use Feser because of the wall thickness, non-restrictive flow and bend radius is high. And going forward, 6' is not enough. For my double loop, which really doesn't take up much space, I used 15.5' of tubing. I bought 17' because i knew I would cut 1 run run wrong and I did. You will probably need about that considering the size of your case, amount of radiators and pumps. I would not order the tubing until I had all of my parts including all watercooling parts. Mock build the system and figure out the direction of flow for your liquid. Then get string and measure out each run from each device. Add up the total amount of string then order the tubing. You will be surprised at how much you really need. I am guessing that watercooling components on your build will be around 700.00 plus or minus a little bit.

I've heard Tygon is good from multiple sources, and Feser too. I really like your idea of getting everything first & using string to measure out how much I'll need. What about the fittings? Have any problem with barbs & clamps (other than they're not pretty)?

I am waiting for Kepler as well but I am guessing it will be Q2 2012. I know there was a slow down because of the die shrink but even when it gets released, I am waiting a few weeks to see how good it really is. You might see some Ivy Bridge CPU's out right before Christmas with the Ivy Bridge-E's following early Q2 2012 ( I hope! ). If you are going to wait for Keplar, wait for Ivy Bridge-E.

Actually, early this morning I found out something of a curveball. I checked my news feed, and according to [this] the high-end Kepler GPUs (aka the ones I would want) won't come out until the end of next year. Also around the same time, I saw [this] article saying Ivy Bridge is now likely slated for April. Given this news, I may get some cheaper GPUs, an LGA 2011 mobo, and a current-gen CPU, then upgrade when the time comes.

 

[That's_Corporate]

i say wait

Q1-Q2 2012 is shaping up to be a big shift in hardware

 

[dozerawd]

More ram will allow more programs to be running at once and some editing programs DO benefit from more ram but we are talking 500-600 applications. Read into RamDisks and RamCache to see the full benefit of 32 or 64g of memory.

The Corsair and OCZ drives both run SF-2281 controllers. The Corsair runs synchronous nand and the OCZ runs Toggle nand. Both are great performers and honestly, in real world difference, you won't notice. Toggle nand does have better writes because of the cache it uses and it is "supposedly" more reliable in the long run but no one knows because it hasn't been that long. Either one of those drives will hit those numbers in Raid-0. You need to look at other factors; warranty, support, firmware updates, price and reliability. SF-2281 controllers did have HUGE problems with their firmware that caused BSOD's but it has been resolved. Also look at the OCZ Revo Drive 3. It is a PCI-Express controller card with the SSD on top. It is stupid fast as well but you should be able to get 2 x 120g and stripe them and still have money to save. But again, with Raid-0, if 1 drive fails you're toast. Make sure you have a good backup solution just in case.

Fittings are you're choice. I went with Bitspower barbs on everything with a mix of straight, low profile, and a couple 90 degrees ( i hated to but had no choice ). It doesn't look as bad as you're thinking if you do it right. I did not used zip ties but actual straps to secure my tubing and it looks very clean. Not as good as compression but better than zip ties. Order a couple extra O-rings as well just to have just in case. There is nothing worse than working on your loop(s) 6+ months later and you need an O-ring and don't have one!

Well that stinks about the Keplar GPU's. Considering the die shrink I am not surprised. Regarding Ivy Bridge, that is really odd considering that you can order an Ivy Bridge system from some boutiques albeit at astronomical prices. I am a patient man so waiting is no problem.

For the time being, if I were you, I would go with an 1155 system and a 2600K because of the best gaming at this time and hyperthreading for ripping. Video wise, 69XX scales better in crossfire than nvidia in sli especially at higher resolutions running AA. I prefer nvidia for their reliability and driver updates so this is your call. I also have not had any luck on the 6 ATI's I have purchased in many years with one issue with an nvidia board. 2 x 6970's will run around 700-750 with 2 x 570's around 650-700. The 6970's will ROLL the 570's with AA at higher resolutions on DX11 in SOME games because the frame buffers are larger on the 6970 ( we are talking triple monitor here like 5760x1200 ). But, the 570's consume less power, less heat and less noise then 2 x 6970's! 570's can also run 3D if your TV can as well! Check the benchmarks for both builds and check a benchmark for the game(s) you play, which is the most important part.

 

[Rickswan]

More ram will allow more programs to be running at once and some editing programs DO benefit from more ram but we are talking 500-600 applications. Read into RamDisks and RamCache to see the full benefit of 32 or 64g of memory.

The Corsair and OCZ drives both run SF-2281 controllers. The Corsair runs synchronous nand and the OCZ runs Toggle nand. Both are great performers and honestly, in real world difference, you won't notice. Toggle nand does have better writes because of the cache it uses and it is "supposedly" more reliable in the long run but no one knows because it hasn't been that long. Either one of those drives will hit those numbers in Raid-0. You need to look at other factors; warranty, support, firmware updates, price and reliability. SF-2281 controllers did have HUGE problems with their firmware that caused BSOD's but it has been resolved. Also look at the OCZ Revo Drive 3. It is a PCI-Express controller card with the SSD on top. It is stupid fast as well but you should be able to get 2 x 120g and stripe them and still have money to save. But again, with Raid-0, if 1 drive fails you're toast. Make sure you have a good backup solution just in case.

Hmm... I want 240GB at least for my main drive, so perhaps I will wait on a RAID setup. It sounds like OCZ is a good option. I'll give this some thought.

Fittings are you're choice. I went with Bitspower barbs on everything with a mix of straight, low profile, and a couple 90 degrees ( i hated to but had no choice ). It doesn't look as bad as you're thinking if you do it right. I did not used zip ties but actual straps to secure my tubing and it looks very clean. Not as good as compression but better than zip ties. Order a couple extra O-rings as well just to have just in case. There is nothing worse than working on your loop(s) 6+ months later and you need an O-ring and don't have one!

Duly noted, I'll try and remember to get extra O-rings

For the time being, if I were you, I would go with an 1155 system and a 2600K because of the best gaming at this time and hyperthreading for ripping. Video wise, 69XX scales better in crossfire than nvidia in sli especially at higher resolutions running AA. I prefer nvidia for their reliability and driver updates so this is your call. I also have not had any luck on the 6 ATI's I have purchased in many years with one issue with an nvidia board. 2 x 6970's will run around 700-750 with 2 x 570's around 650-700. The 6970's will ROLL the 570's with AA at higher resolutions on DX11 in SOME games because the frame buffers are larger on the 6970 ( we are talking triple monitor here like 5760x1200 ). But, the 570's consume less power, less heat and less noise then 2 x 6970's! 570's can also run 3D if your TV can as well! Check the benchmarks for both builds and check a benchmark for the game(s) you play, which is the most important part.

I'm actually torn between that very decision - to get current-gen then eventually upgrade or wait...

Well that stinks about the Keplar GPU's. Considering the die shrink I am not surprised. Regarding Ivy Bridge, that is really odd considering that you can order an Ivy Bridge system from some boutiques albeit at astronomical prices. I am a patient man so waiting is no problem.

i say wait
Q1-Q2 2012 is shaping up to be a big shift in hardware

Yeah, the Kepler situation is a bit discouraging. I decided to at least get things started - I bought the TH10 Case from Caselabs, 2 MCP655s, 1 MCRES Micro Rev. 2 reservoir, and 2 Black Ice 480 radiators. Once I get those, I can figure out exactly how I want to set up my loop and what I will need for it.

As for the up-gradable hardware (mobo, cpu, gpu, etc.) I see three options: the first option is simply to wait until the 2nd half of 2012, or even the beginning of 2013 for the high-end next-gen stuff. Option two is: I buy a current-gen motherboard, cpu, gpu(s), and whatnot, then upgrade later. Option three: wait for Ivy Bridge, but not for Kepler - then, once Kepler arrives, see if it's worth upgrading to or if I should wait for what comes after. I know that the Kepler roadmap shows the best Kepler stuff from Q4 2012 to early 2013, which is a long time to wait. If [this] is correct, it makes options 2 or 3 a little easier to bear.

 

[cixx79]

Just wondering how your build was going since my build is very similar to yours. I'm waiting to purchase everything due to the Radeon 7xxx series being released in a few days. I wanna WC my graphics card in my rig so I'm assuming I"ll have to wait a month or so for companies to release any good blocks. I wouldn't mind running some Nvidia but I think I'd get more bang for the buck with some Radeon cards.

 

[Rickswan]

Just wondering how your build was going since my build is very similar to yours. I'm waiting to purchase everything due to the Radeon 7xxx series being released in a few days. I wanna WC my graphics card in my rig so I'm assuming I"ll have to wait a month or so for companies to release any good blocks. I wouldn't mind running some Nvidia but I think I'd get more bang for the buck with some Radeon cards.

It's going pretty good! Here is a pic of what I currently have in the power supply side:

What is visible in that pic is:

• the Caselabs TH10 (reverse layout) with ventilated doors and optional interface buttons
• a swiftech micro res rev2 - custom mounted, the pre-placed holes along the rim are spaced perfectly so I had no need to drill any holes
• Corsair AX1200 modular Power Supply - mounted with Caselab's optional PSU support bracket. I actually had to exchange it 'cause I ordered the regular one, but my case has the reverse layout (they have a reverse layout bracket)
• Black Ice 480 quad radiators (there are 2, both mounted on the ceiling. They fit under the lid!) with Gently Typhoon 4250rpm fans mounted (they are extremely powerful). There is also 1 fan mounted in the case for case airflow, making that a total of 9 fans (cost around $200 for the fans alone!)

Not visible is the Tygon 1/2" ID laboratory tubing (clear), 2 D5/MCP655 pumps, 18 Bitspower brass barb fittings, 2TB WD Black Caviar 7200rpm HDD, Watecool Hetkiller GPU-X³ (times two), Aqua Computer Cuplex Kryos HF, 1 silver kill-coil (to kill bacteria), and 1 pack of Indigo Xtreme thermal compound. I also purchased the Asus Maximus IV extreme Z68 motherboard and an i7 2700k (because it's binned higher than 2600k, and it's a guaranteed good OC), which at the time of this writing is still in-transit.

All I need to get now is: an SSD for my main-drive, RAM, and 2 GTX 580 3GB's. Then the optional stuff: a fan controller, castings, and a surround sound system. I highly recommend Caselabs, everyone who has seen the case has been in awe - pictures don't do it justice! Also, Sidewinder computers is where I got many of my components - they have good prices and are only 2 states away from my location, meaning their packages arrive quickly (they're in Indiana).

Hope this helps! It's true that Radeon is more budget-friendly, but I'm getting the 580s just the same - call it personal preference.

 

[cixx79]

Nice, I take that back, my WC rig is shaping to be almost exactly like yours minus the GPU's. So you went for the Gentle Typhoon AP-15's? I'm envious, I'm anxious for you!

 

[Rickswan]

Nice, I take that back, my WC rig is shaping to be almost exactly like yours minus the GPU's. So you went for the Gentle Typhoon AP-15's? I'm envious, I'm anxious for you!

Thanks dude, I'm so close I can taste it... can't wait to build this thing!