Adding second radiator to 800D, recommendations?

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Activate: AMD

[H]ard|Gawd
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I'm planning on adding my second GPU to my loop and need to add another rad to contend with the additional heat. I do not plan on modding the case in any meaningful way (I actually use that bottom drive cage at the moment) so that means either a 120 or 140mm radiator. I'm envisioning placing it in the bottom of the case. Here is my planned loop:

Nn1zxNT.png


Everything is currently installed other than the second GPU (currently a non-ref being swapped) and the bottom rad. I've been looking at a few different options for 120mm and 140mm radiators, and I'm not sure which direction to go.

Basic questions:

Do pretty much all 140mm rads fit in the bottom there?

To what extent do I need to worry about thickness? Does it become significantly more difficult to route the tubing through the grommets with thicker radiators (i.e. 60+mm)? I'm assuming just a push configuration through the rad drawing up through the bottom (as drawn)

How much performance gain/loss would I see going from 120mm to 140mm or vice versa? Do I gain anything by going to 120mm (obviously not performance, but ease of installation)

Which rads are recommended? I've been looking at the NexXxos UT60 and XT45, as well as the EK XTX 120mm, the EK XTC 140mm and the XSPC RX120. I guess I'm most interested in the fit/performance of the 140 mm Alphacools (UT60 vs XT45)

Again, I don't want to do a mod to put a 240mm rad down there at this time. Any comments/critiques of the loop plan are welcome as well
 
Just get a big ass OCCOol 120.3 Monster Radiator.

two radiator is only going to hurt your liquid flow rate.


You are trying to improve your cooling but you are going to hurt by adding more restriction to your flow.
 
Tsumi said:
What about placing a radiator on the rear fan?
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Putting a 140 there requires some cutting and squeezing because there isn't much space between the fan and the side panel. I think I'd rather put it at the bottom
SonDa5 said:
Just get a big ass OCCOol 120.3 Monster Radiator.

two radiator is only going to hurt your liquid flow rate.


You are trying to improve your cooling but you are going to hurt by adding more restriction to your flow.
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I'm not sure that makes any sense. Have you looked at the pressure/flow rate curves for a modern radiator? It basically shows that a 360mm radiator adds a fraction of the restriction that even a high flow block does. Considering my current part selection I don't see how a D5 wouldn't be capable of handling that.
This one is from Martin's Liquid Lab's review of the alphacool XT45
alphacool-xt45-pd2.png
 
Check out how much clearance you have on the bottom. If you do pull, you can just get short screws and screw the radiator to the case, putting the fan on top.

What size tubing are you currently running?
 
I guess I'll have to do some measuring, but we all know that the realities of installation aren't always obvious from a quick set of measurements. I'm surprised I haven't found more info about putting a rad down there other than 240mm installation mods. I suppose thats always a possibility, I just don't think I want to pull the whole thing apart for that mod right now.

Tubing size is 7/16x5/8" which, in hindsight, might not have been a brilliant decision. I'm too far invested to change right now.
 
7/16" ID 5/8" OD should be fairly flexible without kinking, the only tubing size that would be more flexible is 3/8" ID 5/8" OD, and there has been no demonstrable performance difference between 3/8" ID and 1/2" ID.
 
Tsumi said:
7/16" ID 5/8" OD should be fairly flexible without kinking, the only tubing size that would be more flexible is 3/8" ID 5/8" OD, and there has been no demonstrable performance difference between 3/8" ID and 1/2" ID.
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Which is why I chose it. The problem is not the tubing itself, because it was way nicer to work with than a lot of the 1/2" ID I have worked with in the past, but the much more limited availability of fittings. Its not a huge deal with the prevalence of G1/4" threaded things, but anything with an integrated compression is much tougher to find

OK, so I'm looking really hard at the XT45 and the UT60. From what I can tell, they should perform very similarly at lower fan speeds, with the UT60 pulling away marginally at high speed. Thats just based on Martin's testing for the 360mm rads. I'm going to assume the trends will be the same for the 140's, maybe even a smaller difference than the 360. With the proper use of rotaries it should be simple to get the tubing line up through the grommets
 
Activate: AMD said:
I'm not sure that makes any sense. Have you looked at the pressure/flow rate curves for a modern radiator? It basically shows that a 360mm radiator adds a fraction of the restriction that even a high flow block does.
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First off the AlphaCool Monsta 360 radiator isn't on that chart but it flows about 6% less than the best radiators on that chart.

The more radiators you add the more resistance your flow rate will have and when you do that the single monster radiator will win in flow.

The Monster 3860 has the best cooling ability.

Good thing about Monster 360 is you can get great Gentle Typhoon fans in push pull and have a very quiet and powerful cooling radiator with a fan controller.




Here is photo of my set up in my mini-ITX with a Monsta 240. No reservoir needed, less tubing, more space in case for air flow, less money spent on tubing and reservoir.


MonsterITX.jpg
 
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SonDa5 said:
First off the AlphaCool Monsta 360 radiator isn't on that chart but it has better flow ratethan any of the radiators that are on that chart.

The more radiators you add the more resistance your flow rate will have.

By using one big ass well made radiator you will benefit from good cooling ability and good flow.

Good thing about 360 is you can get great Gentle Typhoon fans in push pull and have a very quiet and powerful cooling fan with a fan controller.

*snip*
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Even if its true that the Monsta 360 has better flow rates (and it probably is), it doesn't exactly disprove my point. Even the highest restriction rads on that graph aren't all that restrictive, and my current RX360 is at the bottom. Considering that people are running 3-4 blocks + multiple rads with a single D5, I feel confident that I could add another rad to my current loop without a big flow-rate hit. The big upside is that I was able to find a BNIB XT45 for substantially under msrp, rather than swap my perfectly good RX360 with a $120 rad. I'm also not convinced that a Monsta 360 would dissipate more heat than an RX360 + XT45 140mm, though if you have data to prove otherwise I'd be happy to see it
 
In BundyMania review the Monsta had the best cooling ability and had decent flow rates compared to your current RAD.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1720172

My approach is to improve the over all cooling ability by adding a single more capable radiator and clean up the loop flow as much as possible.

Money wise it makes more sense to go your route but adding that radiator may hurt your flow rates to the point that it hurts your goal of improving cooling ability. You take one step forward and one step back and you are right where you started. I have seen people do this.


Hope it works out.
 
Your approach adds a single radiator, while removing one of the same physical size. The overall cooling addition is negligible in comparison to adding ~140mmx140mm of cooling space, especially an XT45. Flow rate shouldnt be affected to any degree that would mess up cooling performance (So the flow rate loss should be negligible), it will take a large hit to your flow rate to see any measurable loss of cooling capacity.

While yes there will be a loss of cooling capacity due to flow rate, this amount will be negligible, and should be more than offset by the addition of the radiator. Adding the radiator wont hurt the goal of improving cooling ability, his way is one step forward, with no steps back. yours is one forward, one back....

OP Throw pics up if you could, will be nice to see how it ends up.
 
W.Feather said:
Your approach adds a single radiator, while removing one of the same physical size. The overall cooling addition is negligible in comparison to adding ~140mmx140mm of cooling space, especially an XT45. Flow rate shouldnt be affected to any degree that would mess up cooling performance (So the flow rate loss should be negligible), it will take a large hit to your flow rate to see any measurable loss of cooling capacity.

While yes there will be a loss of cooling capacity due to flow rate, this amount will be negligible, and should be more than offset by the addition of the radiator. Adding the radiator wont hurt the goal of improving cooling ability, his way is one step forward, with no steps back. yours is one forward, one back....

OP Throw pics up if you could, will be nice to see how it ends up.
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The Monsta radiator is bigger than the one the OP is using and it has higher cooling ability.
 
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The primary determinant of performance is surface area rather than thickness. Adding an extra 20mm thickness does not make up for an extra 140x140mm of surface area, and in low fan speed operation can actually hurt cooling performance.
 
W.Feather said:
Your approach adds a single radiator, while removing one of the same physical size. The overall cooling addition is negligible in comparison to adding ~140mmx140mm of cooling space, especially an XT45. Flow rate shouldnt be affected to any degree that would mess up cooling performance (So the flow rate loss should be negligible), it will take a large hit to your flow rate to see any measurable loss of cooling capacity.

While yes there will be a loss of cooling capacity due to flow rate, this amount will be negligible, and should be more than offset by the addition of the radiator. Adding the radiator wont hurt the goal of improving cooling ability, his way is one step forward, with no steps back. yours is one forward, one back....
Click to expand...


Tsumi said:
The primary determinant of performance is surface area rather than thickness. Adding an extra 20mm thickness does not make up for an extra 140x140mm of surface area, and in low fan speed operation can actually hurt cooling performance.
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Yea, these were my thoughts as well. The incremental differences in dissipation between radiators of varying thickness are much smaller than the incremental differences between radiators of different surface areas (i.e. 240 vs 360)

W.Feather said:
OP Throw pics up if you could, will be nice to see how it ends up.
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Definitely, I'll probably be rebuilding it this weekend. I can't promise one of these gorgeous builds I see all over the place, hopefully I'll at least be able to share something that doesn't embarrass me :D
 
You are correct, a Monsta radiator is thicker. however a single monsta radiator will not compensate for the loss of a 140mm x 140mm (an XT45 no less, which is also a very good radiator), so although the single Monsta versus the RX360 will have more cooling capacity, it wont have more cooling capacity than an RX360 + XT45 (of 140mm x 140mm), with the added benefit of cost saving and not having a radiator sitting doing nothing.

SonDa5 said:
The Monsta radiator is bigger than the one the OP is using and it has higher cooling ability.
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Looking forward to the before and after temps.

Hope it works out.

My main concern is hurting the flow rate.

Adding that little radiator at the bottom will also create extra heat in the case.


On my RAVEN 02 build I had a 360mm radiator at the bottom and when I added a 120mm radiator to the top I didn't see any improvements on my temps and I took the little radiator out of the loop. I learned my lesson for my case.
My Raven case only had 1x120 blow hole at the top and when I added the radiator there it did't work that well.

If OP could maintain good air flow inside of the case 2 rads may work out well with 2 loops instead of 1 powered by their own pumps. Keep the loops completely separate from each other so water temps don't mix, possibly a small pump for the 140mm radiator will work well for the CPU and let the bigger radiator handle the video cards. That is how I would try it, I have never done it like this but I do have experience doing what the OP is planning on doing and it didn't work out for me.
 
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W.Feather said:
You are correct, a Monsta radiator is thicker. however a single monsta radiator will not compensate for the loss of a 140mm x 140mm (an XT45 no less, which is also a very good radiator), so although the single Monsta versus the RX360 will have more cooling capacity, it wont have more cooling capacity than an RX360 + XT45 (of 140mm x 140mm), with the added benefit of cost saving and not having a radiator sitting doing nothing.
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The Monster 120.3 radiator is 80mm thick and it provides almost as much radiator cooling surface are space as the OPs RX360+XT45 and it will flow better, have less tubing in case allowing for better air flow inside of case.
 
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If OP does things right (easy to do in the 800D), extra tubing will only have an extremely minor effect on airflow.

The extra restriction is not enough to significantly impact flow rates on a Laing D5 (as long as flow rates are kept above 1 GPM, it doesn't matter).

The extra radiator on the intake won't heat up air enough to impact performance on the second radiator. Done right, the top radiator would receive the water first followed by the second radiator, ensuring temps on the intake are always lower.

Additionally, I don't know how many times we've said this, so I think I'll put it in bold, underline, and caps: EXTRA THICKNESS DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR SURFACE AREA.

You are being way too OCD about what you think is right.
 
Tsumi said:
Additionally, I don't know how many times we've said this, so I think I'll put it in bold, underline, and caps: EXTRA THICKNESS DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR SURFACE AREA.

You are being way too OCD about what you think is right.
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Length multiplied by height = surface area
Surface area multiplied by width(thickness) gives you volume.

Volume is greater on the Monster 280x. Greater cooling volume and that is why the monster radiator has higher cooling potential with proper air flow. Perfect radiator to use with Gentle typhoon fans in push/pull.
Keeping the inside of the case as free from obstructions as possible will help with over all case air flow. Less tubing and less obstructions in tubing flow with help with over all flow. With 2 video cards and a CPU in series with the same tubing you want optimum flow. It may work out with OPs plan but I didn't have any luck with it and I only had 1 video card and 1 cpu in my loop. Another GPU probably would have been much worse.

You call me OCD but I just think I'm offering a better way to cool with a larger radiator.

It's 2 different set ups. I have tried both and the single better radiator has worked better for me in my RV01 case as I described earlier.
 
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http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/14/360-radiator-shootout-summary/

UT60 performed worse than the ST30 at 600 RPM, and the two are identical in every way except for thickness and consequently flow rates, in which the ST30 performed worse... yet performed better thermally.

Do I really need to spell it out? This is just getting stupid. The surface area of most importance is the FRONTAL SURFACE AREA.

Also, you want to argue about push/pull and volume? My GTX radiator has far more fin volume than your Monsta radiator due to its much higher FPI (twice as high). And because of the higher FPI, it performs far better than your Monsta ever can with Gentle Typhoons in push/pull, especially at high speeds. Too bad Skinneelabs is down, and that they never finished their tests, but their tests did show major improvements in cooling performance for the GTX series radiators with push/pull Gentle Typhoons vs regular fans.

Need proof?
Check this and this.

Now would you look at that. The Monsta performed worse than the UT60 until ~1000 RPM fan speeds in Bundymania's tests. But wait, that's not all. Look at the Swiftch MCR320 XP in Martin's tests. At 2200 RPM, it was matching the UT60. Imagine that, a 34mm thick radiator matching a 60mm thick one.

More evidence.

Would you look at that. The 30mm thick GTS radiator in push/pull beats the 100mm thick TFC Monsta at fan speeds above 1000 RPM.

I tested 17 radiators and my best to worst between models was at most aroun 17% and typically more in the 10% range.

Going from a 360 to a 480 is a 30% increase in performance, so the 480 without a doubt will perform better no matter the model with like fans


Also push pull vs push only is yet another 30% gain, so any slim rad in push pull will also outperform any premium rad in push only.
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Quoted from Martin himself.
 
Tsumi said:
Quoted from Martin himself.
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I respect Martin's review but he didn't review the Alphacool Monsta 360.

Bundymania did(in your evidence) and Bundymania stated that the Monsta had the greatest cooling ability with the proper fans. That is proof that the volume cooling area is greatest factor with good air and liquid flow.

I appreciate your arguments but I have done my own research and testing and learned from personal experience. Are your arguments based on personal experience? I'm trying to help the OP out.
 
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SonDa5 said:
I respect Martin's review but he didn't review the Alphacool Monsta 360.

Bundymania did(in your evidence) and Bundymania stated that the Monsta had the greatest cooling ability with the proper fans. That is proof that the volume cooling area is greatest factor with good air and liquid flow.

I appreciate your arguments but I have done my own research and testing and learned from personal experience. Are your arguments based on personal experience? I'm trying to help the OP out.
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How about you? Do you have the proper equipment to accurately test temperatures, create controlled conditions, and the money to test multiple radiators? Your singular anecdote means absolutely nothing without those controlled conditions, and you're just conveniently ignoring that doesn't support your views!
 
Tsumi said:
How about you? Do you have the proper equipment to accurately test temperatures, create controlled conditions, and the money to test multiple radiators? Your singular anecdote means absolutely nothing without those controlled conditions, and you're just conveniently ignoring that doesn't support your views!
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I used Furmark and Intel Burn Test with Real Temp and GPU-Z and HWinfo64 and from experience my RV02 cools better with a single larger radiator than a 120.3 and 120.1 radiator in series with cpu and gpu and single swiftech MCP655 pump. Do you have experience trying both configurations or are you just trusting your opinion based on reviews you have read?
 
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There does seem to be a lot of evidence supporting the fact that radiator thickness is a much smaller factor than surface area, and very little supporting data for the opposite hypothesis. Even if Martin didn't review the Monsta, I think we can extrapolate pretty easily from the XT45 vs UT60 data, considering they all share the same style of construction and differ only in thickness. the extra 15mm only made a difference at high fan speeds where denser radiators would perform better anyway. If I was buying from scratch, I'd generally err on the side of thicker radiators, bu the incremental improvement from swapping my 360 rad seems so small that it would never justify the cost.

My XT45 should be here this weekend. I won't have direct comparison data since the loop will have an additional GPU in it. If temps are the same or better with an additional GPU, that would be an obvious sign of success. If they're worse the situation will be a little murkier.
 
Due to the massive restriction of radiators, one should always have at least on D5 per radiator. Else your cooling suffers due to loss of flow.
 
Noob said:
I am worried about flow rates
I am worried about flow rates
I am worried about flow rates
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http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?170217-Some-Laing-D5-Testing-13.1-24V-is-the-same

Get a hold of yourself you are using a D5...The master of flow.
Rads do not kill flow rates high restriction blocks do.

even 90 degree turns do not kill flow rates as much as you think they do...
4 of them is only worth half a degree C.

Thicker rads cool better than thinner ones... but not better than larger ones...
think about this... 3 parts to cooling capacity... flow through rad, rad transfer to fins, fin transfer to air.
You can make your Surface area bigger by making it thicker... but that doesn't give you as much SF/ connection to water which is what carries the heat. Thus 480 beats thick 360.
 
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Sorry I didn't update this post earlier, but I was able to get my second rad installed. The 140mm XT45 was a bit of a tight fit, but I was able to make it work with the use of a couple 90deg rotary fittings to use the existing hose grommets and a tiny bit of dremel work. I have a noctua 140mm PWM fan on there that seems to push a little less air than I'd like, but it does the job. If I had to do it again I'd probably choose a 120mm rad for convenience and better fan selection.

As far as performance goes, I'm happy with my results so far. Adding the second rad was obviously enough to deal with the additional heat generated by the 7970. My CPU temps have stayed the same or even gone down slightly. The two GPU's are using two different blocks (EK FC7970 and XSPC 7970), and there are large deltas between the two GPU's. I'm not sure how much is dependent on the fact that they're set up serially, and how much is due to the performance differences between the blocks. I suspect the XSPC block is performing significantly worse than the EK block, so I plan on replacing it. Either way, temps are very reasonable (40C on the EK block and 50C on the XSPC block) under full, extended load (F@H and LTC mining 24/7)

So just to reiterate, 1 D5 is enough for 2 rads, and a 140mm XT45 added more than enough cooling power to handle a 7970. I'll eventually post pics when my GPU blocks match, it doesn't look that great right now
 
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