Why are 5.1 headphones so unpopular around here? I’m sure for audiophiles the quality is horrible, but for the average Joe, shouldn’t the quality be acceptable? I fine perfectly chugging along on $10 stereo headphones from Sony! Although I understand the “2-ears analogy”, I want to know why a 7.1 set-up is then better than a stereo setup. I just want superior positioning with decent sound (crappy to you guys) when compared to stereo headphones. Although I know the X-Fi has made huge leaps in simulated 5.1 headphones, but can they compare to true 5.1 headphones in positioning? I would like a logical (rather than just a flame) explanation why I should go for a stereo pair (such as the Steelpad 5H) rather than a 5.1 pair (such as Speed Link’s Medusa).
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
-
Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.
A Modest Proposal- Why 5.1 Headphone Hate?
- Thread starter Flayum
- Start date
Vertigo Acid
2(-log[H+])4u
- Joined
- May 31, 2003
- Messages
- 12,410
Will you *ever* use them for anything besides gaming?
Flayum said:
There is no comparison. The 5.1 headphones absolutely suck for positioning. I have a pair of Zalman 5.1's and have taken them apart and modified them as much as they can be and still, the positioning sucks.
Basically, the speakers can not recreate the queues needed, it's more than positioning, it's frequency response, timing, noise wave cancellation and etc. The 5.1 headphones can not emulate that. The X-Fi emulates that as close as it can for the average persons hearing abilities.
I can pinpoint any sound behind or beside or in front with the X-Fi and stereo headphones, but with the Zalmans all I can tell is left or right, with a hint of a sound maybe coming from a specific driver...but not able to pinpoint.
Believe us all when we tell you, 5.1 headphones do not work. The theory is plausable, but until they do some psychoacoustic processing, they will not compare to teh X-Fi for simulated positioning.
The Medusa 5.1 provides superior 'one hit' positioning cues to my Sennheiser Orpheus or Stax Omega II, among other headphones I have. I use a Creative X-Fi Elite Pro, with the 2-channel phones using EAX/CMSS-3D. The Medusa is used in EAX/5.1 mode with bass redirection. CMSS-3D on the X-Fi has a noticeable improvement on previous attempts at 3D audio. And while the smooth transition in direction of CMSS is better than the Medusa, in terms of being able to tell immediately where a sound is coming from, I find the 5.1 phone to be noticeably more effective.
Perhaps I just got lucky with my first choice but for me, 5.1 headphones work.
Perhaps I just got lucky with my first choice but for me, 5.1 headphones work.
[nCn]Preacher
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2000
- Messages
- 4,744
Ok, for the idiots among us, you want to go over that again, this time in engrish?
Positioning = ? Is this referring to the virutal "direction" of the sound source or is this just trying to emulate the position a speaker would occupy in a regular (non-headphone) setup?
Bass redirection = ? Not sure I understand what this is and how it helps/hinders.
Is there a "Surround Sound Headphones FAQ for Dummies" out there somehwere?
Positioning = ? Is this referring to the virutal "direction" of the sound source or is this just trying to emulate the position a speaker would occupy in a regular (non-headphone) setup?
Bass redirection = ? Not sure I understand what this is and how it helps/hinders.
Is there a "Surround Sound Headphones FAQ for Dummies" out there somehwere?
[nCn]Preacher
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2000
- Messages
- 4,744
Ronco said:
Everybodies a comedian! That was pretty damn funny though....Ok here is the deal.
With Speakers their position related to your head is an UNKNOWN value.
With Headphones their postion related to you head is a KNOWN value.
Because of the above, with speakers you can not perform the calculations in software to delay the sound correctly to create a 3d space (sure you can try and get halfway decent results but will not compare to individual source). Also the most important thing still with 5.1 speaker setups is still the position and spacing of the speakers, if you put them all in too tight a space it wont work.
With headphones because you know exactly where the drivers are in relation to the ears creating the needed delays in software is pretty trivial to create a very good 3d sound. Now the inverse trying to create the delays in hardware (multiple drivers) in the tight space of a headphone is damn near impossible.
With Speakers their position related to your head is an UNKNOWN value.
With Headphones their postion related to you head is a KNOWN value.
Because of the above, with speakers you can not perform the calculations in software to delay the sound correctly to create a 3d space (sure you can try and get halfway decent results but will not compare to individual source). Also the most important thing still with 5.1 speaker setups is still the position and spacing of the speakers, if you put them all in too tight a space it wont work.
With headphones because you know exactly where the drivers are in relation to the ears creating the needed delays in software is pretty trivial to create a very good 3d sound. Now the inverse trying to create the delays in hardware (multiple drivers) in the tight space of a headphone is damn near impossible.
Never had anything against 5.1 headphones but must say that, having heard a cpl 5.1 headsets, I actually think my X-fi does a better job, at least in games and such, with a cheapy stereo headset. Im using a pr from Radio shack that ran me a whoopin $19 (origonally $49 I guess). Anyway I had a friend of mine drop by with his headset and I showed him how things sound and he swears sounds better than some $100 plus 5.1 headset he had.
Even assuming that the positioning is roughly equivalent for both, you can't get the same level of sound quality from a 5.1 set compared to a good stereo set.
Bottom line, some people say 5.1 works better, but MOST seem to say that something like the X-Fi-s CMSS3D-Headphone works better. The X-Fi's method should work for the average set of ears, but there are some people for which it does not work very well, and those may be the people who prefer something like the Medusas.
Bottom line, some people say 5.1 works better, but MOST seem to say that something like the X-Fi-s CMSS3D-Headphone works better. The X-Fi's method should work for the average set of ears, but there are some people for which it does not work very well, and those may be the people who prefer something like the Medusas.
The bigger question is how many people have used them before panning them.
From what I can see, MOST of what goes on is someone first posts a question "Which headphones to get?" they get recommended various out of which they choose one based on peer opinions usually without listening, and since the A-T's and DT770 don't suck as such they proclaim it the best headphones they've used to date... and they recommend that to anyone else. Rinse and repeat. I'm not saying that the Medusas beat these two for music. For all sorts of reasons they don't. But then they aren't wholly horrible for casual listening (provided you don't set set the phones to 2 channel), and I would say it's a case of priorities... if it's mainly gaming, then these are worth a shot.
From what I can see, MOST of what goes on is someone first posts a question "Which headphones to get?" they get recommended various out of which they choose one based on peer opinions usually without listening, and since the A-T's and DT770 don't suck as such they proclaim it the best headphones they've used to date... and they recommend that to anyone else. Rinse and repeat. I'm not saying that the Medusas beat these two for music. For all sorts of reasons they don't. But then they aren't wholly horrible for casual listening (provided you don't set set the phones to 2 channel), and I would say it's a case of priorities... if it's mainly gaming, then these are worth a shot.
Ronco said:
I will post I have NEVER tested 5.1 headphones. However I know from simple physics and my experience with audio that an equal pair of headphones quality wise the 5.1 will always be worse than standard headphones. 5.1 headphones is a clear gimmic feature that manufacturers use to sell product.
In audio world and in most things follow the K.I.S.S. rule. If you want incredible surround sound in a headphone then look for dobly headphone techinology. This tech works with ANY two channel headphones.
I'd say a basic understanding of the physics of sound combined with a basic understanding of how the brain processes sound is why there is so much hate for 5.1 channel headphones. If you want to know more, read any of the previous threads on the subject. There are plenty of logical, scientific explanations of why 5.1 channel headphones are bullshit(plus plenty of non-scientific and illogical reasons why they aren't bullshit. )
)Ronco said:Assumption & Conjecture > Experience. It was ever thus on the 'Net.
Exactly and my experience in audio fields, note I enjoy as a hobby building speakers and amps. Also being an EE helps too. So I agree Experience is better than Assumption & Conjecture. I have the experience to know that a decent designed set of stereo headphones will sound better than a pair of 5.1 headphones.
Treyshadow
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,392
I have used the Medusa Phones before for long gaming sessions.
They are well.... OK, let me explain.
First my background:
I have several nice pairs of Headphones to include the Senn HD650 and Senn HD580 and Beyer Dynamics DT990 Pro. In the past I have had the Audio technica ATH-500, AKG 240, Senn HD280, and Sony V6. I also dabbled with the zalman 5.1 headphones (just say no).
Anyway, the Medusa headphones pads are very close to the speakers. They seem to compress a lot when wearing them to the point of almost on ear. Since I was used to the much much nice pads of the Beyer Dynamics and the Senns, I did not like the feeling of these phones. They also had a very small sound stage. Tiny even, I didn't expect that from a 5.1 headphone.
Audiowise, they are OK, not good, not great, not even up to the HD280 in sound quality, but they do a rather good job of positional audio even with an audigy class sound card. In 5.1 they are pretty believable, but the fronts have lots to be desired. Running powerDVD with Dolby Headphone on the Sennheiser HD580 or the Audio Technica ATH-500 was more believable than the Medusa cans in 5.1
The medusa cans did have a nice little headamp for them, but also they fell apart quicker than expected. 3 of my gaming buddies purchased these when you had to get them from Overseas. All 3 sets have failed where one headphone was not working. Recabling the speaker was all that it took to repair.
Overall I would give these a 5 on the good headphone scale, and most decent 2 channel headphones sound much better 80 percent of the time. The only shining example I had with these was tracking folks in Max Payne II. It was really very good. However in almost every other game I preferred the Audio Technica ATH-500
They are well.... OK, let me explain.
First my background:
I have several nice pairs of Headphones to include the Senn HD650 and Senn HD580 and Beyer Dynamics DT990 Pro. In the past I have had the Audio technica ATH-500, AKG 240, Senn HD280, and Sony V6. I also dabbled with the zalman 5.1 headphones (just say no).
Anyway, the Medusa headphones pads are very close to the speakers. They seem to compress a lot when wearing them to the point of almost on ear. Since I was used to the much much nice pads of the Beyer Dynamics and the Senns, I did not like the feeling of these phones. They also had a very small sound stage. Tiny even, I didn't expect that from a 5.1 headphone.
Audiowise, they are OK, not good, not great, not even up to the HD280 in sound quality, but they do a rather good job of positional audio even with an audigy class sound card. In 5.1 they are pretty believable, but the fronts have lots to be desired. Running powerDVD with Dolby Headphone on the Sennheiser HD580 or the Audio Technica ATH-500 was more believable than the Medusa cans in 5.1
The medusa cans did have a nice little headamp for them, but also they fell apart quicker than expected. 3 of my gaming buddies purchased these when you had to get them from Overseas. All 3 sets have failed where one headphone was not working. Recabling the speaker was all that it took to repair.
Overall I would give these a 5 on the good headphone scale, and most decent 2 channel headphones sound much better 80 percent of the time. The only shining example I had with these was tracking folks in Max Payne II. It was really very good. However in almost every other game I preferred the Audio Technica ATH-500
We're talking mainly games with occasional use for music. EE or not, I would suggest you actually try these things in a like for like situation. Most of the posts asking for 5.1 recommendations here start "I want a headset for 9x% gaming". For that, all I'm saying is that the Medusa is a valid competitor. They do require some tuning of the volume in order to get decent positioning... I used the RMAA test tool to do that. After that, I enjoyed better snap positioning than the other headphones I own that I tested CMSS with.
For the price I would still suggest CMSS capable soundcard and a decent set of headphones like the ATH-500.
5.1 headphones are just too much of a gimmick for me to even waste my time buying to test and have to return. If someone wants to lend me a pair I would gladly test them out.
I personally have a set of ATH-900, however they extend the price range a bit. Some of the most comfortable and natural sounding headphones I have used.
Here is another point, I rarely will make a statement regarding how something works prior to using it for myself. You are correct you should not do that, but in this case it is too much of a "Gimmick" to give it the time.
5.1 headphones are just too much of a gimmick for me to even waste my time buying to test and have to return. If someone wants to lend me a pair I would gladly test them out.
I personally have a set of ATH-900, however they extend the price range a bit. Some of the most comfortable and natural sounding headphones I have used.
Here is another point, I rarely will make a statement regarding how something works prior to using it for myself. You are correct you should not do that, but in this case it is too much of a "Gimmick" to give it the time.
Vertigo Acid
2(-log[H+])4u
- Joined
- May 31, 2003
- Messages
- 12,410
My SQ opinions are based on the zalman 5.1
Gimmick they may be, but you still haven't used them. I've compared it with my own regular headphones, the Stax Omega II and the Sennheiser Orpheus... both of which are somewhat superior to the ATH-A900 in terms of 'natural presentation' among other attributes. After tuning, I find the Medusa still a better bet for gaming.
CMSS does movement within the 3D soundstage better. It's easy to get a positioning cue if the sounds are moving around. However, when they suddenly appear I find the Medusa the better headphone for immediately turning to that sound. Neither though provide a truly opened out, realistic 3D soundstage.
CMSS does movement within the 3D soundstage better. It's easy to get a positioning cue if the sounds are moving around. However, when they suddenly appear I find the Medusa the better headphone for immediately turning to that sound. Neither though provide a truly opened out, realistic 3D soundstage.
Ok then... I should really stick with Stereo headphones and use the CMSS-3D on the X-Fi. Keeping in mind that I'm no audiophile in any way, what headphones would you suggest for <$100? I'd use them for both gaming and music, however I'm not really a big fan of bass. Even on a 7.1 speaker set-up for my Home Theatre, I tend to turn the sub-wolfer down way-low. I also don't like these "Open-Air" headphones that projects some of the sound out into the room. If you guys could provide any suggestions, I'd be much obliged.
Options I'm considering:
-Steelpad 5H
-SENNHEISER EH150
-SENNHEISER HD477
-Icemat Audio: Black Siberia
Options I'm considering:
-Steelpad 5H
-SENNHEISER EH150
-SENNHEISER HD477
-Icemat Audio: Black Siberia
Ronco: I think it's time we examined your testing methodology. Can you please list what games you used to test the headphones, and in what modes, both Windows and Creative. I'm curious to see if you configed the X-Fi properly for optimal 5.1 simulation in CMSS-3D Headphone mode.
..and the simple answer of "why, of course I set it up properly! I have the Stax... blah blah... Orpheus... blah... and as such an experienced audio blah blah blah I would never had made any mistakes in the setup!" will not fly here.
..and the simple answer of "why, of course I set it up properly! I have the Stax... blah blah... Orpheus... blah... and as such an experienced audio blah blah blah I would never had made any mistakes in the setup!" will not fly here.
Chastity said:
Peer opinions without adequate basis of experience certainly fly here so why not 'simple answers'?
Tell you what, you tell me how I should set both modes and I'll try them out once again. If anyone else wants to validate the test settings then that's OK too. Also, (within reason) what games to test in and how.
Ronco said:Peer opinions without adequate basis of experience certainly fly here so why not 'simple answers'?
Ronco I really hope you do not think that what I was giving starting back with my first post was my "opinion". That is wrong, it is simple physics.
I stated I have never used Medusa headphones to dispell any question that it was an opinion. Also I actually have worn a pair of "5.1" headphones, however I can not base any opinion of their quality cause I only had a few minutes with them.
m1abram said:
It wasn't just you. However "Simple Physics" doesn't always bear out in the case of its implementation in products. You're assuming CMSS-3D is 100% effective as a counter to the 'muffle & back' effect of the Medusa "rear" driver.
All right, let's put it this way. Would your EE experience lead you to the conclusion that electrostatic drivers would be capable of significantly greater degree of detail than dynamic drivers?
Ronco said:
Yes I would agree with that in general. electrostatic drivers have much lower mass compared to a dynamic driver. This lower mass allows the speaker to "start" and "stop" quicker given much better response particluarly in extremely complex music. They also have downsides, such as higher power requirements and much more sensitive to room placement (i know headphone wise this is not an issue).
edit: Forget to put the disclaimer, outside of listening auditions of friends and stores equipement I have not had a chance to give any decent speakers/headphones using electrostatic drivers a good enough listen for first hand experience. But the tech is sound and would give them a serious listen. In fact I am thinking of my next project is to use some planar tweeters (not really electrostatic but similar) with some full-range drivers to create a nice line array set.
I already discussed how to set up CMSS-3D for optimal headphone effect in another thread, but I am more interested in how you set it up. Of course if you are lacking in articulation to elaborate upon your configuration of the software and drivers, of which play an intricate role in a soundcard's performance and/or functionality, I'd understand wholeheartedly. After all, a soundcard is not a CD player, and requires a more fundamental understanding of the pitfalls and function of the PC hardware you utilize.Ronco said:Peer opinions without adequate basis of experience certainly fly here so why not 'simple answers'?
Tell you what, you tell me how I should set both modes and I'll try them out once again. If anyone else wants to validate the test settings then that's OK too. Also, (within reason) what games to test in and how.
(If you have not discerned, I believe your adaptation was flawed, and I wish for you to run your tests again.)
m1abram said:
I would too from an EE point of view. However, if you take two headphones, the range-topping Sony Qualia 010 (dynamic) and the range-topping Stax Omega II (electrostatic) and hand it to a variety of people without explaining the technology involved, it's odds on that people will say that the Qualia is more detailed. What you're doing is exactly the same situation as someone who's heard neither headphone saying that it is physically impossible for the dynamics to have superior detail to the electrostatic. The real-world results depend on the engineering of the product, not necessarily on the physics involved. To assess it's efficacy, you must actually try it.
Chastity said:
I've got the control panel set up synced with the Creative control panel as far as speaker settings are concerned, and both the settings set to Auto. I did read on a separate thread of yours when you indicated that Windows should be set to 5.1 speaker mode. That made theoretical sense to me but in practice it does not make a relevant difference when comparing the two settings in RMAA Sound Positioning test. I also talked to a Creative product manager who said that CMSS-3D for heaphones should be used in headphone mode. Is that the flaw you're referring to?
Can't speak for Chastity, but that DOES sounds like a pretty big flaw, there.Ronco said:
First off, you'll likely want to test in 'game mode' vs 'entertainment mode', as it adds some important effect options for headphone emulation.
Also, you want to make sure the X-Fi kicks into headphone mode when headphones are plugged in - it can be set to automatically do that, but it is not by default. Note that it treats "2/2.1 speakers" mode VERY differently from headphone mode.
Yes yes, I'm aware of all that thanks. It is in game mode for games and it is in headphone mode for headphones. No need to have it automatically kick in, but I've done that too.
What I was referring to is that Chastity said that the downmixing should be handled by CMSS and to set the Windows Control Panel Audio configuration to 5.1 mode, and to set the Creative X-Fi configuration to headphones. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Chastity. I tried this too but there was no real difference in the 3D imaging.
What I was referring to is that Chastity said that the downmixing should be handled by CMSS and to set the Windows Control Panel Audio configuration to 5.1 mode, and to set the Creative X-Fi configuration to headphones. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Chastity. I tried this too but there was no real difference in the 3D imaging.
Correct. To take advantage of the newer HRTF algorithms, do the following:
1) Unsync Windows from Creative, and throw Windows into 5.1
2) Plug in your headphones, and throw the X-Fi into headphone mode, and Game mode
3) Enable CMSS-3D, and make sure MacroFX and ElevationFilter is ON, not Auto. (Games don't enable it yet) With CMSS-3D off, the hardware HRTF libraries won't be loaded, and you'll be using whatever DirectSound3D supports. Creative used some of their technology aquisitions from Aureal and Sensaura to improve their headphone virtual 5.1 output.
4) Configure game to output 5.1 (if possible)
By doing this, games that get the speaker config from Windows will output 6 channels, and then the CMSS-3D libraries will convert that info into the virtual 5.1 headphone.
I'm sure Thomase will chime in and update this info. He mentioned some differences involving Half-Life, but it didn't matter if it was synced or not.
You are also correct that Creative expects you to be using CMSS-3D while gaming. We did testing on 3DSS and showed that panning was alot smoother and accurate when CMSS was enabled on the older Audigys (1/2/ZS/4 Pro).
1) Unsync Windows from Creative, and throw Windows into 5.1
2) Plug in your headphones, and throw the X-Fi into headphone mode, and Game mode
3) Enable CMSS-3D, and make sure MacroFX and ElevationFilter is ON, not Auto. (Games don't enable it yet) With CMSS-3D off, the hardware HRTF libraries won't be loaded, and you'll be using whatever DirectSound3D supports. Creative used some of their technology aquisitions from Aureal and Sensaura to improve their headphone virtual 5.1 output.
4) Configure game to output 5.1 (if possible)
By doing this, games that get the speaker config from Windows will output 6 channels, and then the CMSS-3D libraries will convert that info into the virtual 5.1 headphone.
I'm sure Thomase will chime in and update this info.
He mentioned some differences involving Half-Life, but it didn't matter if it was synced or not.You are also correct that Creative expects you to be using CMSS-3D while gaming. We did testing on 3DSS and showed that panning was alot smoother and accurate when CMSS was enabled on the older Audigys (1/2/ZS/4 Pro).
Chastity said:Correct. To take advantage of the newer HRTF algorithms, do the following:
1) Unsync Windows from Creative, and throw Windows into 5.1
2) Plug in your headphones, and throw the X-Fi into headphone mode, and Game mode
3) Enable CMSS-3D, and make sure MacroFX and ElevationFilter is ON, not Auto. (Games don't enable it yet) With CMSS-3D off, the hardware HRTF libraries won't be loaded, and you'll be using whatever DirectSound3D supports. Creative used some of their technology aquisitions from Aureal and Sensaura to improve their headphone virtual 5.1 output.
4) Configure game to output 5.1 (if possible)
By doing this, games that get the speaker config from Windows will output 6 channels, and then the CMSS-3D libraries will convert that info into the virtual 5.1 headphone.
I'm sure Thomase will chime in and update this info.
You are also correct that Creative expects you to be using CMSS-3D while gaming. We did testing on 3DSS and showed that panning was alot smoother and accurate when CMSS was enabled on the older Audigys (1/2/ZS/4 Pro).
Yup, I'll chime in. Unsynching and setting the game to 5.1 is ONLY necessary in HL2, not the other way around. In any game that uses OpenAL/DirectSound3D, RMAA 3D Audio Test included, you DON'T have to unsynch and set windows/game to 5.1.
Also, a detail... When using OpenAL/DirectSound3D, the application does not output 6 channels directly. Instead, every sound that is played has a set of 3D coordinates associated with it. The OpenAL/DirectSound3D hardware will "render" this sound to whatever speaker configuration you have selected, using HRTF if applicable. For example, if the 3D coordinates specify a sound source above the listener's head, AND ElevationFilter is set to "On" in the CMSS3D panel, the hardware will use HRTF to create the illusion of a sound source above you. Such a position does not correspond to any standard speaker placement, 5.1 or otherwise.
"Unsynching and setting the game to 5.1 is ONLY necessary in HL2, not the other way around. In any game that uses OpenAL/DirectSound3D, RMAA 3D Audio Test included, you DON'T have to unsynch and set windows/game to 5.1."
To be honest, this fix also improves on some older games. I would like to see a more concise collection of data of what works, and what doesn't. Personally, I'd like to see it not matter, but it does make sense for it to work.
To be honest, this fix also improves on some older games. I would like to see a more concise collection of data of what works, and what doesn't. Personally, I'd like to see it not matter, but it does make sense for it to work.
You know one thing I would like with creatives software. A quick way to turn on and off CMSS. Maybe I am missing an option, but does anyone no of a quick way to do this? Ideally no more than 2 clicks would be preferred. I do not like CMSS turned on when listening to music, however find going through the dialog boxes to turn it off tedious.
daemionsos
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2005
- Messages
- 270
Lots of hate for 5.1 headsets. I sure like my Turtle Beach 5.1's. Sure they need more equalization to sound good than my sony digital reference units, but I can hear left, right, front and back in them where all I can get from the 2.0 is left right. This is just my personal experience. I am no audiophile. I undoubtedly prefer to use my 5.1 speaker setup, but sometimes I HAVE to be quiet. So you see? If its just temporary until the baby wakes up, who cares if they aren't the greatest? As long as you can tell if that grenade bounce went forward and left or backwards to the right!
<wonders if Turtle Beach maybe actually makes a good set because he can't figure out what everyone else is complaining about>
<wonders if Turtle Beach maybe actually makes a good set because he can't figure out what everyone else is complaining about>