9000 PCs in Swiss Schools Going Linux Only

[keenan]

Not all, things like REAL digitial ink, the top end commercial packages, Office, Photoshop, Autocad, the list goes on, not there, at least natively. There's PLENTY that Linux doesn't do.

The only one of these things that's even remotely relevant to a public school education is AutoCAD, and that's a specialized tool that some schools might offer a couple classes in, not something that every machine across the entire school system needs.

In this context, this decision makes perfect sense. Yes, the business world uses Windows, but who cares? You're learning how to type, use a word processor for simple documents and so on, maybe some simple programming - not how to maintain a machine and the ins-and-outs of the operating system. It really doesn't matter what OS is taught, and considering it's public money, I'd rather it not go into further entrenching a giant monopolist's products.

Also most, if not all, the tools they would be learning are available for a bunch of different operating systems (and for free), which in an education context is IMO important. Parents of a student shouldn't need to buy a Windows computer, and a copy of Office so that their student can do homework at home. The tools the student needs to be able to use at home should be as widely available (cross platform) and low cost as is feasible.

 

[jimmyb]

I think this is also useful in the sense that most students will have plenty of experience on Windows from home use, so this will only add to their breadth of knowledge with respect to computing platforms.

 

[Shockey]

how does it save them money... any machine purchased comes with wiindows

I'm sure if you purchasing for school district you could make some demands, seeing as your spending quite a bit. How much 5k plus for desktops?

 

[GNU/Blind]

Not all, things like REAL digitial ink, the top end commercial packages, Office, Photoshop, Autocad, the list goes on, not there, at least natively. There's PLENTY that Linux doesn't do.

Office is a big bloaty joke that most people use a very small portion of, Photoshop is nice but the eventual outcome of an image can be done the same with The gimp(I am co owner of a media company dealing with print and graphics and my business partner uses cs4), Autocad is an exception, but I'm sure there are people out there that know their Linux based CAD software well enough to compete.

 

[GNU/Blind]

I'm sure if you purchasing for school district you could make some demands, seeing as your spending quite a bit. How much 5k plus for desktops?

Good point, however I think the main point here is that they don't have to buy new systems and can continue to use there old ones replacing hardware as it goes bad. Bye bye Windows XP RIP, enjoy your end of life.

 

[heatlesssun]

The only one of these things that's even remotely relevant to a public school education is AutoCAD, and that's a specialized tool that some schools might offer a couple classes in, not something that every machine across the entire school system needs.

Office wouldn't be relavent in a school? Might want to rethink that one especially since the best note taking app on the planet is in Office and the last time I check note taking was a pretty important part of an education.

 

[GNU/Blind]

Office wouldn't be relavent in a school? Might want to rethink that one especially since the best note taking app on the planet is in Office and the last time I check note taking was a pretty important part of an education.

An office suite is relevant, Microsoft office is not.

 

[heatlesssun]

Cool I have heard good things about onenote, onenote 2007 runs fine under Linux, I'm sure it won't be long before 2010 is up and running after its released. U mad? haha, also do remember that there is more than likely something that does an adequate job natively. The system requirements for onenote 2010 aren't exactly high end. So please, please tell me about something that remotely relates to "high end desktop computing" that is not available on Linux.

The problem here is the ink support. I've seen a couple of places discuss OneNote 2007 on Linux and ink doesn't really work. The thing is that Microsoft spent a fortune on Windows digital ink, not easy to replicate and in 8 years since Windows has had it Linux practically gone no where with it. Windows costs money because much of it is just expensive and the FOSS funding model on the desktop just can't support these kinds of efforts. Windows is expensive, even

Plus the Swiss are going total FOSS, no OneNote for them. Yes there are alternatives, even free ones like Evernote, they simply lack a lot, good ink being the biggest problem.

 

[heatlesssun]

An office suite is relevant, Microsoft office is not.

Once again yes you can get a low cost or free alternative but it's simply not Microsoft Office. Sure you can say that XYZ features in Office are niche. But I find it funny that Linux folks are quick to point out all of the flexibility of Linux and then discount having flexibility in their apps. It's these attitudes that have held Linux back, along with a funding source.

 

[phide]

It's not the OS, it's the tools that the OS supports. There are simply a lot of great things that aren't available to Linux.

And, again, we're talking about the level of difficulty in transitioning from productivity-related software in Linux to the same in Windows. For the most part, the curve there isn't that steep. And as for inking and touch technologies in Windows go, are those technologies really going to be relevant for the majority of students? At this moment, those technologies are about as relevant to most users as Direct3D shader models (which is to say, not very). Perhaps that will change in the future, but given the long and rather unimpressive history of Windows-based tablet PC usage, I rather doubt it.

Now, I don't really condone this sort of "100% Linux"-type movement in education, since students should gain experience on as many major platforms as possible (Windows, Linux and OS X would do it), but I don't think it's quite as big a deal as you make it out to be. Technology education should center more around fundamentals and concepts rather than procedure anyway, and that isn't inhibited in the world of desktop Linux.

 

[keenan]

Now, I don't really condone this sort of "100% Linux"-type movement in education, since students should gain experience on as many major platforms as possible (Windows, Linux and OS X would do it), but I don't think it's quite as big a deal as you make it out to be. Technology education should center more around fundamentals and concepts rather than procedure anyway, and that isn't inhibited in the world of desktop Linux.

TFA isn't really full of detail on this, but my reading is not that this is any kind of 100% Linux type of situation, but that 9000 PCs (of unknown usage) that are currently dual-booting will be migrated over to Ubuntu only.

I absolutely agree with you, students should be exposed to a variety of platforms and technologies, but outside of technology education, niche uses where alternatives make sense (say OSX for Final Cut in a media classroom, or Windows for AutoCAD in the drafting lab) for general lab computers and teacher machines and so on, I see no reason for Windows or (especially) Office. The goals of free software align very well with the goals of education, and with tools that are now quite mature and capable, I'm not at all surprised that educators are finding savings and a more open environment worthwhile.

 

[GNU/Blind]

The problem here is the ink support. I've seen a couple of places discuss OneNote 2007 on Linux and ink doesn't really work. The thing is that Microsoft spent a fortune on Windows digital ink, not easy to replicate and in 8 years since Windows has had it Linux practically gone no where with it. Windows costs money because much of it is just expensive and the FOSS funding model on the desktop just can't support these kinds of efforts. Windows is expensive, even

Plus the Swiss are going total FOSS, no OneNote for them. Yes there are alternatives, even free ones like Evernote, they simply lack a lot, good ink being the biggest problem.

This feature seems to be a niche market anyway as tablets aren't really that must have of a platform, as much as I hate Apples faggotry the ipad is the closest thing that resembles a tablet that people seem to actually want. If I recall the HP tablet deal that MS was working on with them got shitcanned, I bet there will be an android tablet at some point with note taking capabilities. But then again I bet the swiss students were still taking notes with pen and paper. Android tablet looks promising.

 

[Bambi]

Isnt Linux tech support more expensive?

 

[keenan]

Actually, 9000 PCs is probably a drop in the bucket of the Swiss education system's machines. Wolfram Alpha says Switzerland has about 1.1 million students in primary and secondary education. Even when I was in high school 15 years ago, there were probably more computers than 1 for every 10 students, and even in elementary school, 1 or 2 per class of 25. Nowadays I'm sure there are many more than that, but even with only 1 computer for every 25 students, that's still 44,000 machines.

 

[GNU/Blind]

Actually, 9000 PCs is probably a drop in the bucket of the Swiss education system's machines. Wolfram Alpha says Switzerland has about 1.1 million students in primary and secondary education. Even when I was in high school 15 years ago, there were probably more computers than 1 for every 10 students, and even in elementary school, 1 or 2 per class of 25. Nowadays I'm sure there are many more than that, but even with only 1 computer for every 25 students, that's still 44,000 machines.

They are in what I would call beta testing, alpha tested the dual boot, moving on to beta, at some point mass roll out might be on the table if their needs are met.

 

[GNU/Blind]

Isnt Linux tech support more expensive?

TCO of Linux is generally less expensive, in most cases you setup a machine and it stays the same way for years until hardware failure, don't really have the slowly degrading performance that windows seems to have. From an windows admins perspective you buy a new server for every instance of something that needs serving, Linux admins tend to set up fewer servers that do more on one box. While unix/linux admins can be expensive to employ, you generally have fewer admins running around the office than windows admins, a lot of windows admins are um well narrow so you have a lot of them that know certain aspects of what they do very well or at least enough to past the tests the took at school but don't have the capability to pick something new up. Hence why there are ads for sharepoint admin employment all over the place. I'm willing to bet the reason you get more for your money with unix/linux admins is because we all have an autistic tick that makes us what to learn more and more. I'm thinking aspergers.

 

[heatlesssun]

This feature seems to be a niche market anyway as tablets aren't really that must have of a platform, as much as I hate Apples faggotry the ipad is the closest thing that resembles a tablet that people seem to actually want. If I recall the HP tablet deal that MS was working on with them got shitcanned, I bet there will be an android tablet at some point with note taking capabilities. But then again I bet the swiss students were still taking notes with pen and paper. Android tablet looks promising.

And reconfiguring one's desktop OS a bazillion different ways it niche as well. Heck Linux is niche itself, does that mean its not valuable to some? And indeed the ink in Windows is VERY useful for students, they are the #1 crowd for these things, unfortunately they are on the expensive side though HP is starting to be good at the low end with devices like the tm2. I'm not saying that everyone needs it. I use it all the time for meetings, ideas, scribbling stuff down, its just handy and its a computing experience that I will more than likely use the rest of my life.

What's so ironic from the desktop Linux crowd is that they say things "on well its niche" but at the same time preach the importance of their niche OS. You can't have it both ways.

And not only that niche is the beginning of mainstream and with all of these tablets coming I can pretty much guarantee that more and more people will want pens with some of those tablets. I hear more and more iPad folks want one. I mean REAL digital pens, not stick styli. Big difference in those and a Wacom pen.

 

[heatlesssun]

And, again, we're talking about the level of difficulty in transitioning from productivity-related software in Linux to the same in Windows. For the most part, the curve there isn't that steep. And as for inking and touch technologies in Windows go, are those technologies really going to be relevant for the majority of students? At this moment, those technologies are about as relevant to most users as Direct3D shader models (which is to say, not very). Perhaps that will change in the future, but given the long and rather unimpressive history of Windows-based tablet PC usage, I rather doubt it.

Now, I don't really condone this sort of "100% Linux"-type movement in education, since students should gain experience on as many major platforms as possible (Windows, Linux and OS X would do it), but I don't think it's quite as big a deal as you make it out to be. Technology education should center more around fundamentals and concepts rather than procedure anyway, and that isn't inhibited in the world of desktop Linux.

But that's just it. If Linux were a FUNCTIONALY equivalent to Windows Windows would have died YEARS ago. Why would anyone buy something when they could get the same thing for free? I'n not saying that some people can't make the transition. But it's not a functionally equivalent.

And once again I find it ironic that people will defend the existence of niche things like desktop Linux, preach that "just because its not popular or dominate the market doesn't mean that its not useful." If niche is bad then how can one justfify desktop Linux or even OS X. Relative to Windows those are on the desktop niche too. Doesn't mean they're not useful and should not be deleveloped.

Niche is the begining of mainstram. Not for all things obvsiouly but every piece of technology that we use today at some point only a few people used it.

 

[GNU/Blind]

And reconfiguring one's desktop OS a bazillion different ways it niche as well. Heck Linux is niche itself, does that mean its not valuable to some? And indeed the ink in Windows is VERY useful for students, they are the #1 crowd for these things, unfortunately they are on the expensive side though HP is starting to be good at the low end with devices like the tm2. I'm not saying that everyone needs it. I use it all the time for meetings, ideas, scribbling stuff down, its just handy and its a computing experience that I will more than likely use the rest of my life.

What's so ironic from the desktop Linux crowd is that they say things "on well its niche" but at the same time preach the importance of their niche OS. You can't have it both ways.

And not only that niche is the beginning of mainstream and with all of these tablets coming I can pretty much guarantee that more and more people will want pens with some of those tablets. I hear more and more iPad folks want one. I mean REAL digital pens, not stick styli. Big difference in those and a Wacom pen.

All good points, on a side note though there is no way to accurately tell how many desktop installations of Linux there actually is, its estimated at 1% but no way to prove that. Microsoft is wasting a lot of money on their INK project when in reality the embedded portables is where the market is going instead of PC's all together, where they have the ability to catch up is making sure it runs on their mobile platform. The market will be flooded with other solutions not running windows mobile. That said I think we can agree we both bought into something that we like a lot, you paid more for yours and ultimately BSD/Linux/Android on embedded devices will take over both of our platforms in terms of general computing. The swiss will have an easier time migrating when the time comes as they are already using open file formats and protocols.

 

[keenan]

But that's just it. If Linux were a FUNCTIONALY equivalent to Windows Windows would have died YEARS ago. Why would anyone buy something when they could get the same thing for free? I'n not saying that some people can't make the transition. But it's not a functionally equivalent.

Nor is Windows functionally equivalent to Linux. Why would you pay for Windows when it's not functionally equivalent to Linux?! This is just a silly argument, they're not the same, they're not going to be equivalent, and that's not the intent of either product. What's important is whether or not the solution fulfill the needs of the user, and that encompasses a lot more than which has the most (or best) functionality.

Linux may be a niche operating system, I'm not sure why you compare that to niche tasks or problem domains, which are entirely different things.

Normally I find your arguments well thought out and fairly reasonable, but what you're proposing here seems rather weak and boils down to 'its different than Windows' and 'it doesn't have OneNote'. I'm sure OneNote is a great product, I just don't see it being particularly useful or compelling on school computers for elementary or high school students. Maybe on a tablet or even a laptop carried with the student to classes, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here (though again, the article is not clear), and perhaps an argument could be made in that particular use case, but in the general case I don't see how your arguments apply.

 

[heatlesssun]

All good points, on a side note though there is no way to accurately tell how many desktop installations of Linux there actually is, its estimated at 1% but no way to prove that. Microsoft is wasting a lot of money on their INK project when in reality the embedded portables is where the market is going instead of PC's all together, where they have the ability to catch up is making sure it runs on their mobile platform. The market will be flooded with other solutions not running windows mobile. That said I think we can agree we both bought into something that we like a lot, you paid more for yours and ultimately BSD/Linux/Android on embedded devices will take over both of our platforms in terms of general computing. The swiss will have an easier time migrating when the time comes as they are already using open file formats and protocols.

I think its safe to say that Linux is FAR behind Windows and OS X in deployments and everyday use. The best way to determine that is net traffic and while it's not perfect I would be shocked if those numbers were way off. Pretty much every computer on the planet is.

Microsoft gets criticized for not being innovative all the time and here is a technology that CLEARLY is superior to anything else on the market for the almost the last decade, no ANYONE else did a Tablet PC, that has a lot of use to a number of people including me niche as it may be. Fascinating.

Mobile OSes on low-power platforms are great, but in time there will be smaller and cheaper Windows desktop form factors and the touch will improve. Microsoft isn't stupid, they are going to need to put Windows on different form factors and there is a market for that. These mobile OS devices are GREAT for consumptive tasks, not so much for actual work and people still gotta work and they need computers. I don't get the idea that that EVERYONE WANTS low-power low function devices. Some are going to want more powerful machines. This is not a zero sum game. Indeed, Tablet PCs have been around for a while, there's millions on them and while some people are happy with iPads and I know a number of people that have said they ditched their Tablet PCs for iPads, I've talked to a number of people who have done the reverse. They used an iPad and it didn't fit their needs. These devices are similar but not equivalent.

I thought that Linux guys were about choice and variety?

 

[phide]

But that's just it. If Linux were a FUNCTIONALY equivalent to Windows Windows would have died YEARS ago. Why would anyone buy something when they could get the same thing for free? I'n not saying that some people can't make the transition. But it's not a functionally equivalent.

Depending on the educational requirements, it could be. If we take word processing, for instance, there needs to be a certain level of functionality: core functions like adjusting paragraph alignment, text kerning, table creation and manipulation, image embedding, graph and chart creation, page margin adjustment and so on. If that is the list of what is taught to students, and if both software packages on Linux and Windows support all of those features, then we're talking about functional equivalence. The techniques will vary, but functionally they are on par with respect to the educational goals. If Office supports more features but those features are not intended to be part of the instruction, then what advantage does Office have in that scenario?

And, again, I'm not saying that Office shouldn't be part of the instruction. One can only cover so many core concepts before moving on to procedure, and knowledge of procedure is important. Get students familiar with Word, OpenOffice Writer and possibly even Pages. I'm just saying that there's a required feature set for a school system's instructional outline and that there are features that go beyond what's required. We don't know what those requirements are, so we shouldn't assume that the needs aren't met by OpenOffice Writer or some other document authoring package.

And once again I find it ironic that people will defend the existence of niche things like desktop Linux, preach that "just because its not popular or dominate the market doesn't mean that its not useful."

This discussion has nothing to do with Linux being in a "niche" or not. We're talking about educational concepts here, not market share or consumer adoption rates. If Linux is a capable operating system for students to perform tasks and learn fundamental computing concepts, then it's sufficient for the school system's educational needs.

I don't really believe Ubuntu is the object of instruction in this scenario. Ubuntu is just the foundation, not the center of educational attention. "Ubuntu 101" would likely play a very small part in the overall instruction.

But that's just it. If Linux were a FUNCTIONALY equivalent to Windows Windows would have died YEARS ago. Why would anyone buy something when they could get the same thing for free? I'n not saying that some people can't make the transition. But it's not a functionally equivalent.

Depending on usage, it could be. If we take word processing, for instance, there needs to be a certain level of functionality: core functions like adjusting font alignment, text kerning, table creation and manipulation, image embedding, graph and chart creation, page margin adjustment and so on. Document authoring and the functionality students need to achieve a variety of different elements of document authoring. So if that is the list of what is taught to students, and if both software packages on Linux and Windows support all of those features, then we're talking about basic functional equivalence relevant to the instruction. The techniques will vary, but functionally they are on par. If Office supports more features yet those features are not intended to be part of the instruction, then what advantage does Office have in that scenario?

Niche is the begining of mainstram. Not for all things obvsiouly but every piece of technology that we use today at some point only a few people used it.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I think you're arguing for the relevance of digital ink as a potential focal point of instruction and using that as a means to justify Windows' critical role as a central part of computer technology education. Rather than focusing on the larger picture of technology education (and why Linux could be a satisfactory fit to that end), you're suggesting that computer education should revolve around very specific technologies and Windows-centric procedures rather than fundamental computing technologies available in many different operating systems and software platforms.

OS X also supports inking out of the box. Would I use that as a bullet point to suggest its superiority to Linux in a typical classroom environment? No. From the perspective of practicality, inking capabilities are likely at the very bottom of a very long list of computing technologies that should be taught. Other things would have a much higher priority.

 

[heatlesssun]

Nor is Windows functionally equivalent to Linux. Why would you pay for Windows when it's not functionally equivalent to Linux?! This is just a silly argument, they're not the same, they're not going to be equivalent, and that's not the intent of either product. What's important is whether or not the solution fulfill the needs of the user, and that encompasses a lot more than which has the most (or best) functionality.

This is a specious aregument simply because Windows in on the vast majority of desktops. How many people are trying to get Windows to be a functional equivalent to Linux? Really. Talk about niche. And not only that its probably easier anyway as much of the good FOSS software runs on Windows anyway.

Linux may be a niche operating system, I'm not sure why you compare that to niche tasks or problem domains, which are entirely different things.

Normally I find your arguments well thought out and fairly reasonable, but what you're proposing here seems rather weak and boils down to 'its different than Windows' and 'it doesn't have OneNote'. I'm sure OneNote is a great product, I just don't see it being particularly useful or compelling on school computers for elementary or high school students. Maybe on a tablet or even a laptop carried with the student to classes, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here (though again, the article is not clear), and perhaps an argument could be made in that particular use case, but in the general case I don't see how your arguments apply.

No what I'm saying is that Linux lacks functionality that I personally use and know many that do as well. This subject comes up a bit in the Tablet PC world. People who want ink and OneNote or an equivalent on Linux. When you used them for years you'd understand. It has NOTHING to do with Windows and OneNote per se, its all about WHAT THEY DO! Niche as it may be there a plenty of people who get this and understand the power of these tools. A living memory that stores files of any type (audio, video, images, etc) ,text, web pages, hand written material. Text, images, hand witting, even audio (though that's not worked well for me in the past) fully searchable in a database they syncs locally, over the web, hooks into SharePoint now. It's simply the finest information gathering and retrieval system that I know of.

Also just check out how many Mac users want to run OneNote. There was mention of
this in the Apple sub-forum the other day. For people who need to deal with information it currently has no complete analogue and its HIGH value tool because were talking about people using for things like their jobs and law school. Being niche has no relevance on value. That's why I compared OneNote to desktop Linux because Linux people say this all the time.

If there were a Linux based tablet that could do what OneNote does only better, I'd buy it today and I'd happily pay a couple of grand for it. Just to do this one thing. That's how important this tool is to me and LOTS of others.

Why is that not rational or logical?

 

[GNU/Blind]

Why is that not rational or logical?

You are doing fine there buddy, the Swiss have their needs met by Linux, you have your needs met by your onenote operating system, I have my needs met by Linuxmint 8. Personally I hate writing with a pen/pencil/stylus, typing on ergonomic keyboards and touchscreen keyboards. Sharepoint is retarded as well IMO, the swiss know this so they aren't going with onenoteOS. You keep using your onenoteOS happily and OVER 9000 computers will still be running Linux in Switzerland's school system.

 

[keenan]

This is a specious aregument simply because Windows in on the vast majority of desktops. How many people are trying to get Windows to be a functional equivalent to Linux? Really. Talk about niche. And not only that its probably easier anyway as much of the good FOSS software runs on Windows anyway.

Huh? This incoherent paragraph doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted. What I was saying is that Linux can do things Windows can't, and it can do some other things better than Windows can. The same is true of the opposite comparison. Which is the best choice boils down to what it will be used for, as their functionality is different and doesn't completely overlap. You are obsessed with digital ink, and Linux doesn't do that well (or at all), so it's a poor choice for you if you need that feature. I like tinkering and being able to solve my own problems when things go sideways, so Windows is a less ideal choice for me.

Every time this comes up, you bring up the 'but it all runs on Windows anyway' argument, and that is a plus of using FOSS - your students can use the same software on any OS, at home and at school. However I don't see why that makes Windows a better choice (just a reasonable one, if MS Office were all that was availailable, I think that would contra-indicate the use of Windows, at least for me) of general purpose OS for these folks though, assuming both fully meet their needs. It is expensive to maintain, expensive to license, opaque and doesn't allow the kind of domain-specific tailoring they can achieve with Linux.

No what I'm saying is that Linux lacks functionality that I personally use and know many that do as well.

And Windows lacks functionality that I personally use, and know many do as well. That's not relevant. It's like saying 'Well, Windows 7 doesn't include the telnet command (to pick a random example), so that makes it a poor choice of operating system for your mom's HTPC'. It's just not relevant what you do, we're talking about something completely different.

... OneNote ...

We buy it alright? OneNote is great, I'm sure, I don't think anyone is arguing about that. It's also a niche product for a niche use-case. It's not something that's game-changing for the use I envision the average school PC gets, nor is it something that is going to significantly impact a student's technology education. Inking might be a useful tool, but I hardly see it how it merits more than a brief mention in a discussion about which operating system to choose.

 

[heatlesssun]

Depending on the educational requirements, it could be. If we take word processing, for instance, there needs to be a certain level of functionality: core functions like adjusting paragraph alignment, text kerning, table creation and manipulation, image embedding, graph and chart creation, page margin adjustment and so on. If that is the list of what is taught to students, and if both software packages on Linux and Windows support all of those features, then we're talking about functional equivalence. The techniques will vary, but functionally they are on par with respect to the educational goals. If Office supports more features but those features are not intended to be part of the instruction, then what advantage does Office have in that scenario?

This is the classic 80%/20% rule and sure if the free alternative does everything you need it go for it. I’ve been saying this forever. The problem ALWAYS lies in when you need that extra percentage. And in working in the corporate world a long time that little bit can have ENOURMOUS leverage in productivity. I see this all the time where I work, we are a HUGE business customer of Microsoft and I deal with Office all the time and all the time a user is showing me something that they do with Office I didn’t even know it could do. Hell in going to Office 2007 I found stuff I didn’t know was in Excel regarding formulas. So if you don’t need it great, but when you do it can make a big difference. This is still on reason way people still pay for Office. It simply does more and people are more familiar with what it does than other products because of the YEARS invested in the product. I imagine school kids don’t have years invested in Office. If people think that big companies just buy Office without ANY regaurd to functionality they are mistaken. Sure there's also the HUGE investment in desktop Windows tech in both custom apps and Microsoft tech dependencies. We've done plenty of studies on moving to desktop FOSS, from just apps to outright. A total migration cost to a place like us is beyond belief. BILLIONS with a B. I kid you not.

This discussion has nothing to do with Linux being in a "niche" or not. We're talking about educational concepts here, not market share or consumer adoption rates. If Linux is a capable operating system for students to perform tasks and learn fundamental computing concepts, then it's sufficient for the school system's educational needs.

I know that. I was responding to a point that bought up digital ink being niche and if you look at what I said the whole concept of niche to me is irrelevant. The whole focus of what I’m saying is “Does it do what you need or want it to do?” This is the theme of everything I’ve said in this thread. My secondary point is that Linux from an application standpoint lacks in that department. And I think that you know that I am far from alone in this assessment and that it is a problem with Linux. It’s only natural, where’s the funding to do stuff on desktop Linux? Corporations aren’t trying to push of develop Linux for its own sake. Even Google is really on interested in Linux as a cheap and easy way to get people on their cloud without needing Windows or OS X.

OS X also supports inking out of the box. Would I use that as a bullet point to suggest its superiority to Linux in a typical classroom environment? No. From the perspective of practicality, inking capabilities are likely at the very bottom of a very long list of computing technologies that should be taught. Other things would have a much higher priority.

I’m well aware of Inkwell. Am as big of a digital ink nut that you’ll find and the ONLY Apple product that I’ve ever owned was a Newton and I WOULD have bought an iPad if it had system level ink support, though there are rumors that that could be on its way sooner than later. A slate of that size that has ink with a decent note taker at $500 to $800, I’m all in. That has great value for me. Inkwell is no Tablet PC by any sane person’s assessment however and there are no ground up ink aware apps on OS X, even on the TPC today there aren’t a lot, but over the years there’s probably at least a few dozen that have added some type of ink support. But of course there are things like Photoshop that by their very nature are ink aware though not really ink applications per se. And for that fact there is no official Tablet Mac. Sure there are Wacom tablet peripherals but that’s NOTHING like the experience of ink on the screen, not even close. There were some Hackintosh companies out there trying to make one and I think you know who far that got. Nowhere.

 

[Sikkyu]

WHAT 9000????!!!!

 

[heatlesssun]

Huh? This incoherent paragraph doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted. What I was saying is that Linux can do things Windows can't, and it can do some other things better than Windows can. The same is true of the opposite comparison. Which is the best choice boils down to what it will be used for, as their functionality is different and doesn't completely overlap. You are obsessed with digital ink, and Linux doesn't do that well (or at all), so it's a poor choice for you if you need that feature. I like tinkering and being able to solve my own problems when things go sideways, so Windows is a less ideal choice for me.

How many people are trying to migrate from LINUX TO WINDOWS! And what are the functional limitations of Windows that would prevent that migration? Pretty simple point.

Every time this comes up, you bring up the 'but it all runs on Windows anyway' argument, and that is a plus of using FOSS - your students can use the same software on any OS, at home and at school. However I don't see why that makes Windows a better choice (just a reasonable one, if MS Office were all that was availailable, I think that would contra-indicate the use of Windows, at least for me) of general purpose OS for these folks though, assuming both fully meet their needs. It is expensive to maintain, expensive to license, opaque and doesn't allow the kind of domain-specific tailoring they can achieve with Linux.

So if it all runs on Windows why migrate? Security and cost are the only drivers here.

And Windows lacks functionality that I personally use, and know many do as well. That's not relevant. It's like saying 'Well, Windows 7 doesn't include the telnet command (to pick a random example), so that makes it a poor choice of operating system for your mom's HTPC'. It's just not relevant what you do, we're talking about something completely different.

We buy it alright? OneNote is great, I'm sure, I don't think anyone is arguing about that. It's also a niche product for a niche use-case. It's not something that's game-changing for the use I envision the average school PC gets, nor is it something that is going to significantly impact a student's technology education. Inking might be a useful tool, but I hardly see it how it merits more than a brief mention in a discussion about which operating system to choose.

Windows 7 includes a telnet server and client, VERY random example. And Windows 7 now with standalone CableCard support is a bad choice for an HTPC? I have 4 tuners hooked up my sig rig and two in the rig downstairs. HTPCing is VERY important to me and I have one of these on pre-order: http://www.cetoncorp.com/buy.php. Try this in Linux, not saying it won't work with some body hacking something but I just want to get my full cable on my PC. If Linux does something you need then use it. Once again, computers are for making our lives easier. Why the hell use something that doesn’t do what you want or need? This is the fundamental premise of EVERYTHING I’m saying. OneNote IS a game changer if you need it and know who to use it. It’s the most important productivity application I use every day and for a lot of others. It’s a VERY deceptively easy to use tool to pick up but its complexity is not in its feature set but how it’s used, though its feature set did get substantially bigger in the 2010 release.

 

[heatlesssun]

You are doing fine there buddy, the Swiss have their needs met by Linux, you have your needs met by your onenote operating system, I have my needs met by Linuxmint 8. Personally I hate writing with a pen/pencil/stylus, typing on ergonomic keyboards and touchscreen keyboards. Sharepoint is retarded as well IMO, the swiss know this so they aren't going with onenoteOS. You keep using your onenoteOS happily and OVER 9000 computers will still be running Linux in Switzerland's school system.

You hate it until you find a use for it. Plus its not only text and math but art. The uses of a pen are legion. SharePoint retarded? LOL!

See this is way Linux has SO many problems on the desktop. The desktop Linux crowd looks at something that people find useful and say "You don't need that." I've not ONCE said that you don't need whatever it is that you do with Linux, not that any of you Linux guys seem to be able to point out any concrete examples of something that you do that can't be done on Windows beyond the Windows GUI, which is limited I grant you.

And its NOT ABOUT WINDOWS! It's about what you can DO WITH WINDOWS! Seems to be a VERY difficult concept for a lot of Linux folks.

I'll say it again, if I could do EVERYTHING I do in Windows on Linux I'd use Linux personally. Why not it would be cheaper? Once again a concept that seems to escpae a lot. Sure I can web broswe and hack this or that and hope that maybe somebody might get something working or find a piece of FOSS that's cross platform. I'm hell I've been waiting for 8 years for decent ink support and an HTPC that doesn't cause me to cuss the gods. I've not tried to go back to Linux for an HTPC in some years but now I'm about to get CableCard support. Yeah, Cable, sorry my wife WANTS Cable and I'm not going to have that debate with her anymore. Now at least I can get ALL the channels, except pay per view which I don't use anyway.

I spent a lot of time in Linux a decade ago getting up to speed on the desktop revolution that never happened. My issues with Linux are not without experience and not without LOTS of time and even money, I would buy hardware just for Linux support.

Yes that was years ago but everytime I look at Linux desktop it seems to not have gone anywhere. I've LOVE functionality. If Linux would be me that functionality I would use it. I did find a security monitoring product a couple of years ago that didn't have a Windows eqvivalent that I would have setup but I had spent money on a commercial product that took my like an hour to setup and it works great, though I paid $200 for it does the job. Plus I get free lifetime upgrades. But I may try to play with that again, once I get through the thousands of things I want to do and don't have yet.

 

[keenan]

This is the classic 80%/20% rule and sure if the free alternative does everything you need it go for it. I’ve been saying this forever. The problem ALWAYS lies in when you need that extra percentage. And in working in the corporate world a long time that little bit can have ENOURMOUS leverage in productivity. I see this all the time where I work, we are a HUGE business customer of Microsoft and I deal with Office all the time and all the time a user is showing me something that they do with Office I didn’t even know it could do. Hell in going to Office 2007 I found stuff I didn’t know was in Excel regarding formulas. So if you don’t need it great, but when you do it can make a big difference. This is still on reason way people still pay for Office. It simply does more and people are more familiar with what it does than other products because of the YEARS invested in the product. I imagine school kids don’t have years invested in Office. If people think that big companies just buy Office without ANY regaurd to functionality they are mistaken. Sure there's also the HUGE investment in desktop Windows tech in both custom apps and Microsoft tech dependencies. We've done plenty of studies on moving to desktop FOSS, from just apps to outright. A total migration cost to a place like us is beyond belief. BILLIONS with a B. I kid you not.

No, this is exactly it. The migration cost is huge because people are invested in it, and school kids aren't. There's no staff to retain. No decades-old documents to be converted (must be lossless and editable, of course). No clients using different software to communicate with. There are plenty of problems with migration, and lots of very good reasons why Windows remains as powerful as it does in the business sector. However few of them are relevant to the education system, where almost everything is ephemeral and self-contained.

It’s only natural, where’s the funding to do stuff on desktop Linux?[/quote]
Well, it's here. The article we're talking about. And plenty of similar efforts going on around Europe and other places. All that money that otherwise goes to Microsoft can fund a heck of a lot of open-source development, and that development benefits the educational community (and the rest of the world) as a whole. There's no profit motive here, so it only makes sense for educational institutions to go with this model.

Even Google is really on interested in Linux as a cheap and easy way to get people on their cloud without needing Windows or OS X.

Who cares what their motivation is? The whole point of FOSS is that everyone wins when people use and modify it. Companies see value in it as a cost savings either in up-front cost, decreased maintenance or whatever, so they add to and improve it, file bug reports and so on. Everyone benefits from their use.

The whole focus of what I’m saying is “Does it do what you need or want it to do?”

Well yeah, you can say that, but that's really not what any of your posts have been about. You come to every pro-Linux news post around here and post your myopic views about what is good for you and your tablet-PC obsession without considering the actual topic under discussion. Can we please talk about Linux in education and not why Excel's formula feature is so powerful or Apple's Digital Ink implementation sucks or about OneNote? It's just not relevant to the topic at all.

 

[keenan]

How many people are trying to migrate from LINUX TO WINDOWS!

What on Earth does that have to do with your argument that Linux is not 'functionally equivalent' to Windows, and thus is less suitable? How did we get to migration from that? Windows isn't functionally equivalent to Linux either, does that make Windows unsuitable?

Security and cost are the only drivers here.

And openness I imagine. This is something the educational community tends to understand fairly well, as their mandate is similar to that of the open-source community. But yes, basically that's exactly what I was saying. Windows costs more, so why should they use it?

Windows 7 includes a telnet server and client, VERY random example.

I know, I was just trying to highlight the stupidity of your argument. That's what "It's like saying" means. I use an SSH server every day extensively. I probably would have a hard time adapting to not having it available to me. Does that mean that because it's a pain in the ass and far less functional on Windows, that Windows isn't useful for a completely unrelated task like my Mom's HTPC? Of course it doesn't. My needs have nothing to do with what other people need, the same way your needs are irrelevant to this discussion as well.

See this is way Linux has SO many problems on the desktop. The desktop Linux crowd looks at something that people find useful and say "You don't need that." I've not ONCE said that you don't need whatever it is that you do with Linux, not that any of you Linux guys seem to be able to point out any concrete examples of something that you do that can't be done on Windows beyond the Windows GUI, which is limited I grant you.

No, we look at it and say 'that's a niche thing that students in the public school system don't need', which is what we're talking about here.

Concrete examples are hard to come up with when you use it every day, but there are plenty. Many of the ones I can think of relate to deployment and maintenance, and I've mentioned a couple here already, but apparently those don't count? How about the fact that the school system is free to modify the operating system and tools to create something more tailored to their needs? Your examples are all about proprietary software that only runs on Windows and rarely has anything to do with what we're actually talking about here, which is computers in schools. Please give me one reason a primary school student learning to type on a lab computer needs OneNote, or Windows at all.

Your premise seems to be shouting loudly 'Why migrate?! Windows gives you OneNote and Office and can do everything Linux can, and some other stuff too!'. Ours is 'Windows costs significantly more, is more costly to maintain and offers no functional advantage over Linux in this context, so why not migrate'.

And its NOT ABOUT WINDOWS! It's about what you can DO WITH WINDOWS! Seems to be a VERY difficult concept for a lot of Linux folks.

Yeah, that's what it's about for you. But we're not talking about you here, we're talking about Switzerland's school students. They are not you. That seems to be a very difficult concept for you to understand.

 

[Disposed]

If this works for them and saves them money there is no other discussion needed. The TCO of linux has been grossly overstated by windows supporters for years. The sole reason being 90% of IT guys dont know anything but microsoft and want to save their jobs.


This = more competition which is always good for the consumer. Choices are good, period.

Just because you dont like linux or windows 7 is the best thing since sliced bread dont change any of that.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, this is exactly it. The migration cost is huge because people are invested in it, and school kids aren't. There's no staff to retain. No decades-old documents to be converted (must be lossless and editable, of course). No clients using different software to communicate with. There are plenty of problems with migration, and lots of very good reasons why Windows remains as powerful as it does in the business sector. However few of them are relevant to the education system, where almost everything is ephemeral and self-contained.

Huh? I said where I work would costs BILLIONS to migrate and talked earlier of being tied to Windows, you’re exactly right and I thought I made this point. I agree with what you’re saying if I wasn’t clear.

It’s only natural, where’s the funding to do stuff on desktop Linux?[/quote]
Well, it's here. The article we're talking about. And plenty of similar efforts going on around Europe and other places. All that money that otherwise goes to Microsoft can fund a heck of a lot of open-source development, and that development benefits the educational community (and the rest of the world) as a whole. There's no profit motive here, so it only makes sense for educational institutions to go with this model.

Who cares what their motivation is? The whole point of FOSS is that everyone wins when people use and modify it. Companies see value in it as a cost savings either in up-front cost, decreased maintenance or whatever, so they add to and improve it, file bug reports and so on. Everyone benefits from their use.

Motivation is VERY important. Can you honestly say that Google wants to invest in Linux for the SAKE of Linux? Google doesn’t CARE about the desktop, ANY desktop. They want to run everything on their cloud. I’m not saying that there isn’t some benefit because there are things like Chrome and such but the benefit would be MUCH greater if the focus was on the desktop. Besides Microsoft and Apple, who’s pouring TONS on money into the desktop? By many accounts the desktop will be irrelevant in a decade because of the cloud. Windows OS X, and Linux as desktops are supposed to go away haven’t you heard? Sure there’ll need to be some host but the apps will be HTML 5,6, 7 whatever browser based. The app code won’t give a rat’s ass about the underlying host platform. The vast bulk of written simply won’t be for Windows, OS X or Linux the world of the cloud. Microsoft and Apple invest in the desktop because its core to their business, particularly Microsoft. Apple has taken the lead big time in non-desktop/laptop devices and apparently even their financial motive in the desktop is being replaced by their smaller devices and micro-transaction business with iTunes and the AppStore.

Well yeah, you can say that, but that's really not what any of your posts have been about. You come to every pro-Linux news post around here and post your myopic views about what is good for you and your tablet-PC obsession without considering the actual topic under discussion. Can we please talk about Linux in education and not why Excel's formula feature is so powerful or Apple's Digital Ink implementation sucks or about OneNote? It's just not relevant to the topic at all.

Gee, use whatever you want or need is myopic? And if the Linux community would listen to folks like me, make Linux more functional than Windows and cost than less than Windows on the desktop then don’t you think Linux would be the dominate desktop OS? The Linux community simply doesn’t want to listen. They promised a decade ago that they WOULD deliver these goods remember? They said “Hey you won’t need Windows, Linux will do ALL (not some but ALL) Windows does, cost less to acquire AND maintain and be more secure.” Don’t remember those promises do you?

If you want an echo chamber head over to Slashdot. Yes, I made some VALID criticisms of Linux; I’m FAR from the only person that says these things. I never said that it can’t work for people, indeed I said in this PARTICULAR case it should be fine, no migration costs, no ties to Windows functionality. But in order to get more people to migrate to Linux simply needs to do more and do it more simply. Really, isn’t this problem with EVERY computer system? I just don’t see the urgency in the Linux community to make things better for the user that simply wants a computer to DO something in a fairly straight forward manner and that is meaningful, either personally or professionally. It seems that the problem that you see is with users like me that would like to see some more competition, more powerful tools, and less cost. When we say “Hey Windows does this for me! Can Linux?” because that’s what we know from our experience and mean in sincerely you say “Well that’s only you and no one else cares.” It reminds of of the parable of the man asking for a fish and being given a snake.

 

[Disposed]

If you want an echo chamber head over to Slashdot.

Are you even reading this thread? Theres quite a bit of discussion but its clearly not all anti linux in this thread, in fact not even close.

77 posts in the thread 21 just you a couple more anti linux comments and the rest is people supportive or arguing with you.

Maybe you need an echo chamber since 1/3 of the damn posts in this thread is you arguing the same nonsense over and over again.

Whats to listen to? The same inane fanboy drivel you keep spewing? Linux is every bit as functional as windows. Its time for the fanboys to wake up and look around them its not 2004 anymore.

And dont even start with that horseshit total cost of ownership FUD. There is some truth to it in certain cherry picked environments but for the most part its been grossly over exaggerated for far too long now especially in the desktop world. The TCO of desktop linux is still $0, there is a free working alternative to most software most end users will ever need. The average user surfs the web, checks facebook and sends e-mails. Most people could actually install ubuntu and never need to do a damn thing other than just use their computers, most wouldn't even need to install a single program besides flash.

I dont know where you work but billions is clearly an obvious exaggeration. Try not to embellish so much and you would be far more believable.

You could change an entire freaking state over to linux without hitting the billion dollar mark.

 

[Disposed]

Sorry 74 posts not 77.

 

[keenan]

Motivation is VERY important. Can you honestly say that Google wants to invest in Linux for the SAKE of Linux?

Of course they don't care if Linux succeeds or fails and they purely develop on it and support it because it benefits them financially Obviously they are only investing in things that matter to whatever they're trying to accomplish with it. So? They're using it, and they're developing and improving it. That means more people using it, and more development and improvements being made. Regardless of Google's goals, everyone using Linux benefits. This is how FOSS works, and the fact that businesses can make money by leveraging it is one of the key reasons it does work.

Gee, use whatever you want or need is myopic?

No, the myopia I was referring to is that you can't seem to get past your own needs and the problems Linux poses to your personal usage of computers. Every single Linux thread you post in turns into a Windows vs. Linux discussion that has little to do with the actual situation put forward for discussion. This is a post about Linux in the Swiss school system. All your posts contain references to the business sector, migration costs in the business sector, niche features that you find useful. Very little of it is relevant. You seem opposed to this adoption of Linux by Switzerland, but I've yet to see you put forward a single argument that supports that position, most of your posts centre around either businesses or your own personal computer usage, and have little to do with the merits of Linux in education, or why students need to learn MS Office and can't learn OpenOffice instead, or why .NET should be taught in programming class instead of Python.

then don’t you think Linux would be the dominate desktop OS?

Not for a long time. Windows is deeply entrenched and it would take a lot to unseat it, even if it had considerable shortcomings for the average user in comparison to the alternatives. Actions like this one, and others (French national police, Cuba, China, Macedonia, among other large-scale, prominent deployments) indicate, I think, that FOSS is becoming mature enough for serious use and that most of what is holding back adoption is entrenched application software, like Office and Photoshop and so on that doesn't run on these systems.

I see Windows becoming less and less relevant as computer prices continue to fall, reducing what MS can charge, and as more and more things people care about move onto standards-compliant, platform-agnostic platforms like the Web. I don't want to get into the argument, but I already think distros like Ubuntu can replace Windows for a lot of people, but resistance to change and familiarity count for a lot, especially when the price of Windows is rolled into the cost of every computer you can buy prebuilt at the store.

The Linux community simply doesn’t want to listen. They promised a decade ago that they WOULD deliver these goods remember? They said “Hey you won’t need Windows, Linux will do ALL (not some but ALL) Windows does, cost less to acquire AND maintain and be more secure.” Don’t remember those promises do you?

Did anyone really believe those arguments? I sure didn't, they were never credible, because for it to be true, Linux would have to be a complete clone, bottom-to-top, of Windows. That it is not. However, for a large subset of computer users, it is a perfectly reasonable solution today, and that wasn't true 10 years ago, or even 3 years ago. What you're going for, all the niche applications and all the cutting-edge software like Photoshop and similar things, games and so-on just isn't feasible without getting those vendors onboard, and that's not going to happen until there's adoption, and anyone who thought otherwise was a fool.

I never said that it can’t work for people, indeed I said in this PARTICULAR case it should be fine, no migration costs, no ties to Windows functionality.

So why are you posting in this thread then? If you'd come in and said 'This is a situation where I do think Linux can replace Windows, even though Windows is better for me and runs a lot more random software.' we could have agreed and moved on. Instead we're talking about OneNote and which OS is more functional and a bunch of other crap that has nothing to do with the news post.

I don't disagree that you have some valid criticisms about Linux in general, I just get sick of every Linux thread on here degrading into the same tired Windows vs. Linux argument.

It seems that the problem that you see is with users like me that would like to see some more competition, more powerful tools, and less cost. When we say “Hey Windows does this for me! Can Linux?” because that’s what we know from our experience and mean in sincerely you say “Well that’s only you and no one else cares.” It reminds of of the parable of the man asking for a fish and being given a snake.

If you want more competition and powerful tools, then I don't see why you're opposing this adoption of Linux. The only way Linux will be competitive in the ways you want it to be is with a larger user base, because targeting a niche inside a niche market like the Linux desktop space is just not viable, even for open-source projects. That stuff just can't come until there are users there, and bringing some users onto the platform where it makes sense to do so is the first step. There's nothing technologically holding this stuff back on Linux, it's all socioeconomic.

 

[heatlesssun]

You could change an entire freaking state over to linux without hitting the billion dollar mark.

We have 300,000 Windows desktops with decades of Windows code and about 5,000 Windows servers once again running custom Windows code running in just about every line of business we have. We have MILLIONS of Office documents that would need to be converted. Yes, BILLIONS.

How many tines have I said if it works for you then use it? And the bulk of my posts were in response to people quoting me. And I was the one told that my computing needs and wants were not important, I NEVER said that to the Linux users.

BTW, here's an originaly Linux based FOSS project that actually seemed to listen to me: http://xournal.sourceforge.net/

They made a Windows version that's actually a touch friendly and is actually a great touch enabled PDF reader, had asked these guys years ago for a Windows version and wanted to donate financially but they don't take money, what a shame.

It's folks like these that give Linux and FOSS a good name instead of telling people there needs are irrelevant and discounting those that don't see eye to eye with them. They seemed to look at reality and say hey lets do something to HELP people.

So yeah, nothing good to say about Linux or FOSS. And I'd be willing to use more FOSS and even Linux if it suited my needs.

Damn you guys are hardheaded.

 

[heatlesssun]

If you want more competition and powerful tools, then I don't see why you're opposing this adoption of Linux.

You REALLY don't listen. Where did I say even ONCE in this thread that I opposed this adoption of Linux. I never said that. I said this particular deployment makes sense because it probably lowers cost and provides the needed functionality for the situation. You're so eager to put words into my mouth you never even bothered to listen to the ones I actually said.

Last point. What other experiences and needs can I know besides my own? How the hell am I supposed to know yours? I made a specific point about OneNote and digital ink and all I was saying is that it would be nice if this technology were on Linux and that in particular it would be great for students. I know I'd love it!

You turned it into a Windows vs. Linux debate.

 

[keenan]

You REALLY don't listen. Where did I say even ONCE in this thread that I opposed this adoption of Linux.

Try your first post:

Eaxctly. You can't be resonably computer literate in the working world without some knowledge of Windows, its simply too widely deployed to totally ignore on a desktop computer. At some level this won't help the students but most of them already have Windows machines at home anyway. Switzerland is a wealthy nation.

'Nuff said.

 

[keenan]

Sorry, not your first post, but that one and the couple others that follow are clearly against this change.