8 cores - 3600 bucks?

[wizzackr]

We are a small studio that does CGI for TV ads, architectural and product visualization and such. Small translates into "we don't have unlimited funds", while unfortunately "cgi for TV ads" simulatiously translates into "we always need more processing power"

That beeing said we are currently (1 Q timeframe) looking for a substitute for three of our workstations. We do work AND render on these machines, as we do not have the cash for a dedicated render-farm. For shits and giggles, really, I just recently looked into the option of going dual clovertown - but I wasn't really considering it as an option, as anything above four cores in one machine used to be pertty much unafordable for us.

Now, what I came up with was this - obviously not having read any reviews, as I didn't even consider this option before.

CPUs: 2 Xeon 5345s - 1600.00 €
Mainboard: GIGABYTE 7BESH LGA771 FSB1333 - 380 € (I'd prefer an Intel eATX board, but haven't really looked into which one. Any recommendations?)
RAM: 4GB Kit - such as Kingston ValueRAM FB-DIMM Kit 4096MB PC2-5300F ECC CL5 (DDR2-667) - 600 €
HDDs: 2 SEAGATE Barracuda7200.10 250GB - 160 € (5 years warranty was the deciding factor here. HDD speed is not really important in that case, so I figured that'd work)
PSU: just a placeholder - Antec TP3-650 EC TRUEPOWER TRIO - 130 € (two things here: Firstly can I really use standard ATX PSUs for workstation boards? and secondly I doubt 650 will be sufficient. Any recommendations?)
Case: ANTEC P180 - 160 €
VidCard: HP nVidia Quadro FX1500 - 560 €
DVD-burner: 1 NEC AD7170 DVD burner - 36 €​

Now, as I said before, I obviously have not looked into the individual parts, yet, but as a rough guestimate I really have to say I am pretty surprised! Can you really get a machine with 8 (brand new) cores and 4 GB of RAM for roughly 3600/3800 bucks? That is a pretty good deal if you consider that 4 dualcore woodcrest systems would easily set you back 7000€ and that does not even include all the software licenses we have to pay per seat. Am I missing something big here?

As an alternative I would like to compare that to the overall costs of a 4x4 system, even though we would only have the option of going 8 cores late next year. Depending on cost we could then probably upgrade more machines to 4 cores now, and upgrade to 8 cores later down the road, but as of now that is only speculation.

Any input is greatly appreciated, as I really want to know if/where my calculation is way off... Cheers,
J

 

[Slartibartfast]

A few thoughts...

I wouldn't use a Gigabyte multisocket board. Supermicro all the way.

For the PSU: that wattage should be enough, but don't be foolish enough to trust that build to an Antec. I would look into offerings from Seasonic, PC Power and Cooling and Zippy/Emacs.

Speaking of which, yes, a lot of multisocket boards use normal ATX power supplies.

I don't know too much about the new Xeons, but I believe that with the correct mobo and amount of ram you can run at quad channel. If your programs are memory intensive, you might want to look into this.

As for 4x4? It's not out yet

 

[wizzackr]

I wouldn't use a Gigabyte multisocket board. Supermicro all the way.

I hear you. That was actually the first eATX one I ran into. I am currently looking into Tyan and Intel mainboards, as supermicro is really difficult to get by here in EU.

For the PSU: that wattage should be enough, but don't be foolish enough to trust that build to an Antec. I would look into offerings from Seasonic, PC Power and Cooling and Zippy/Emacs.

Thanks for the input - Seasonics are pretty easy to get here, swapped the ANTEC one for a Seasonic M12-700 700W ATX PSU.

I don't know too much about the new Xeons, but I believe that with the correct mobo and amount of ram you can run at quad channel. If your programs are memory intensive, you might want to look into this.

Again, thanks a bunch. I will definitely look into that!

As for 4x4? It's not out yet

true, but I have roughly 3 months before we really need to pull the trigger, so if they can get it out of the door until then, I will consider it.

Again, thanks for the input, Slartibartfast. I still cannot believe how much power you can get for that amount of cash...

 

[Slartibartfast]

Again, thanks for the input, Slartibartfast. I still cannot believe how much power you can get for that amount of cash...

No problem Go check out 2cpu.com, you'll get better info over there.

 

[movax]

Hmm, does the Intel 5000V/X/_ chipset still work for Clovertowns as well? Seems like that's going to be the MP Intel chipset for awhile.

 

[Dew]

You should also make sure that the quadro gives you tangible benefits in your applications over a geforce.

 

[wizzackr]

You should also make sure that the quadro gives you tangible benefits in your applications over a geforce.

Believe me, that is the first thing I do whenever a new core is out - it is quite amazing how much nVidia and ATI respecively cripple their gaming cores when it comes to professional applications, as you can see here or here for that matter.

There simply is no way around paying the additional cost for us, as we need the power within the viewport

Hmm, does the Intel 5000V/X/_ chipset still work for Clovertowns as well? Seems like that's going to be the MP Intel chipset for awhile.

hmmm, I'll look into it.

 

[uniwarp]

Sorry it's offtopic but your topic reminded me of how affordable these high-performance multi core systems have become over the last couple of years. An 8 core system for $3600 with decent quadro graphics. How much sweeter can it get ?

 

[wizzackr]

Hmm, does the Intel 5000V/X/_ chipset still work for Clovertowns as well? Seems like that's going to be the MP Intel chipset for awhile.

Found this on Intel's website. On page seven it says the 5000P, V and X support clovertowns.

 

[wizzackr]

Sorry it's offtopic but your topic reminded me of how affordable these high-performance multi core systems have become over the last couple of years. An 8 core system for $3600 with decent quadro graphics. How much sweeter can it get ?

Actually - that is right on topic. Exactly my thoughts - isn't that great?!?

 

[uniwarp]

Actually - that is right on topic. Exactly my thoughts - isn't that great?!?

Absolutely wonderful !!!
More and more processing power for less and less money.

 

[movax]

Found this on Intel's website. On page seven it says the 5000P, V and X support clovertowns.

Ah, good to know. I've been considering a twin Clovertown system now.

Then again, first it was twin-Optys.

Then it was Twin Woodcrests.

I'm such a dirty multi-processing whore. Sooooo dirrrrrrty.

 

[unhappy_mage]

I'm such a dirty multi-processing whore. Sooooo dirrrrrrty.

There's nothing wrong with a little of that... or a lot

Any thoughts from the [H] on memory bandwidth requirements of rendering and the impact of Opteron versus Woodcrest there?

 

[wizzackr]

Any thoughts from the [H] on memory bandwidth requirements of rendering and the impact of Opteron versus Woodcrest there?

Depending on the rendering application that may vary a lot. POV-Ray seems to scale incredibly well and the extra memory bandwidth doesn't really seem to matter ( http://www.2cpu.com/review.php?id=114&page=11 ), while in 3dsMax seems to be an entirely different kind of beast (one page before the one I linked to). It's a shame noone tests some more rendering apps or standalone renderers, so I'll can only guesstimate how the different setups fair in our scenarios

 

[movax]

There's nothing wrong with a little of that... or a lot

Any thoughts from the [H] on memory bandwidth requirements of rendering and the impact of Opteron versus Woodcrest there?

Unsure of the requirements, but I think status-quo, the Opterons still scale better and enjoy increased mem performance from their on-die controllers.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Don't worry movax, all three of my systems are multi processing

As far as memory bandwidth, here is a really good thread on it, along with actual benchmarks:

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?t=79475

I ran some of them last night, and my 248's were about on par with some of the new Xeons in terms of bandwith, and they had much lower latency

 

[NulloModo]

Unsure of the requirements, but I think status-quo, the Opterons still scale better and enjoy increased mem performance from their on-die controllers.

Opterons do scale better due to the faster memory interface, but the extra processing power of the Core 2 architecture should more than outweigh that in most of not all applications.

As for the 4x4 comment: 4x4 is still only quad-core, you have two dual cores, not two quad-cores, and two dual cores which are each slower than a Woodcrest. Plus, 4x4 boards will likely not be built to the same standards of quality as professional level boards for Woodcrest/Clovertown. All in all 4x4 is slower and riskier for real work, and an AMD marketing ploy and waste of money for those doing it for games.

 

[AMD RULES]

for psu, OCZ GameXStream 700watt

 

[drizzt81]

As for the 4x4 comment: 4x4 is still going to be only quad-core, you would have two dual cores, not two quad-cores, and two dual cores which are each slower than a Woodcrest. Plus, 4x4 boards will likely not be built to the same standards of quality as professional level boards for Woodcrest/Clovertown. All in all 4x4 is likely going to be slower and riskier for real work.

Then again, since you are not planning to purchase your system today, but rather in tow or three months, there is no reason not to have a look at the capabilities of the 4x4 platform. After all, the more you know, the higher the likelihood of making an informed decision, which many people equate to making a good decision.

 

[/dev/null]

We are a small studio that does CGI for TV ads, architectural and product visualization and such. Small translates into "we don't have unlimited funds", while unfortunately "cgi for TV ads" simulatiously translates into "we always need more processing power"

That beeing said we are currently (1 Q timeframe) looking for a substitute for three of our workstations. We do work AND render on these machines, as we do not have the cash for a dedicated render-farm. For shits and giggles, really, I just recently looked into the option of going dual clovertown - but I wasn't really considering it as an option, as anything above four cores in one machine used to be pertty much unafordable for us.

Now, what I came up with was this - obviously not having read any reviews, as I didn't even consider this option before.

CPUs: 2 Xeon 5345s - 1600.00 €
Mainboard: GIGABYTE 7BESH LGA771 FSB1333 - 380 € (I'd prefer an Intel eATX board, but haven't really looked into which one. Any recommendations?)
RAM: 4GB Kit - such as Kingston ValueRAM FB-DIMM Kit 4096MB PC2-5300F ECC CL5 (DDR2-667) - 600 €
HDDs: 2 SEAGATE Barracuda7200.10 250GB - 160 € (5 years warranty was the deciding factor here. HDD speed is not really important in that case, so I figured that'd work)
PSU: just a placeholder - Antec TP3-650 EC TRUEPOWER TRIO - 130 € (two things here: Firstly can I really use standard ATX PSUs for workstation boards? and secondly I doubt 650 will be sufficient. Any recommendations?)
Case: ANTEC P180 - 160 €
VidCard: HP nVidia Quadro FX1500 - 560 €
DVD-burner: 1 NEC AD7170 DVD burner - 36 €​

Now, as I said before, I obviously have not looked into the individual parts, yet, but as a rough guestimate I really have to say I am pretty surprised! Can you really get a machine with 8 (brand new) cores and 4 GB of RAM for roughly 3600/3800 bucks? That is a pretty good deal if you consider that 4 dualcore woodcrest systems would easily set you back 7000€ and that does not even include all the software licenses we have to pay per seat. Am I missing something big here?

As an alternative I would like to compare that to the overall costs of a 4x4 system, even though we would only have the option of going 8 cores late next year. Depending on cost we could then probably upgrade more machines to 4 cores now, and upgrade to 8 cores later down the road, but as of now that is only speculation.

Any input is greatly appreciated, as I really want to know if/where my calculation is way off... Cheers,
J

Will your software work on a cluster? How about this x2 ?
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1119214

 

[NulloModo]

Then again, since you are not planning to purchase your system today, but rather in tow or three months, there is no reason not to have a look at the capabilities of the 4x4 platform. After all, the more you know, the higher the likelihood of making an informed decision, which many people equate to making a good decision.

While I am all for informed decisions, the 4x4 platform can be judged now CPU-wise by a dual processor dual core opteron system. I have never been into heavy 3D rendering stuff, so I am not sure if there is the possibility or any benefit from running Quadros in SLi, and if there is, it might be something to look at, but as it is, 4 cores of C2D destroy 4 cores of A64, and 8 cores of C2D will, well, you get the picture.

 

[MrGuvernment]

are you using more then 1 display, because in SLI, i beleive you can only output to1 monitor.... ?

 

[wizzackr]

Will your software work on a cluster? How about this x2 ?
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1119214

It would work, but we are always trying to cram as much processing power into one system as possible, as the additional licensing costs for another OS, version of each 3D package we use etc. drives up costs to a much greater extent than hardware does nowadays.

I have never been into heavy 3D rendering stuff, so I am not sure if there is the possibility or any benefit from running Quadros in SLi, and if there is, it might be something to look at

As we can use the vid-cards straight for hardware rendering (particle stuff etc.), there is quite a substantial increase of performance when going SLI - not only within the viewport in scenes with heavy geometry, but also when it comes to certain renders. Additionally there is a couple of software renderers that can take advantage of GPUs, such as nVidias Gelato or even industry standard renderers as mental ray (albeit to a much lesser extent and only for certain tasks as shadow map generation etc.)
Then again, in our particular scenario we mostly rely on more conventional - and flexible - methods of rendering, so we will concentrate on CPU power. On a sidenote - I know for a fact that some companies are developing co-processors for raytracing (such as ARTVPS), but I think that'll be pretty far off, yet. Any info on whether 4x4 supports HTX?

are you using more then 1 display, because in SLI, i beleive you can only output to1 monitor.... ?

We are all still using our trusty old dual 21" Trinitron CRTs - I still cannot really justify the cash for the jump to TFTs. I didn't know you cannot use dual monitors in SLI - pretty weired if you ask me, too. Spending that much dough on vidcards and than not being able to use them with dual monitor setups seems rather strange. Does that hold true for crossfire setups, too?

Thanks a lot for all the info, guys, we had the most unproductive day of all times in our studio, yesterday - as everyone was looking at different hardware configurations all bloody day

Cheers,
J

 

[Slartibartfast]

AKFAIK, SLi Quadros will drive dual monitors, unlike the geforce cards.

 

[movax]

AKFAIK, SLi Quadros will drive dual monitors, unlike the geforce cards.

Yeah, it would make sense if that were true. I guess if you had multiple PCIe slots on those mobos you could drop in additional cards just for multi-monitor support if necessary.

 

[The Real Zardoz]

The Antec Trio series are not EPS12V PSUs from what I can tell. This is a pain, because I'[d love to move my dual Oppy to the 650 as the 550 seems to be barely enough. Can't work out whether the Gigabyte board is EPS12V - but it makes reference to an 8 pin 12V connector in the manual which suggests that it might require it.

Can someone verify otherwise?

Considered the Tyan boards? They have the i5000PW board which looks VERY cool - but comes with a price tag and a half. If I was doing an SMP system build tomorrow, that's the board I'd probably use.

 

[lithium726]

We have quad core chips already?

Holy god.

 

[NulloModo]

We have quad core chips already?

Holy god.

Most def. Perhaps we are on the brink of a new type of 'Moore's law' where it isn't the transistor count that expands every so many months, but the number of cores. With the physical limits on silicon clockspeed can't increase forever, so programmers in all fields are going to have to learn to program for multi-core architecture. Who knows, by 2010 we could be looking at 32 core CPUs.

 

[lithium726]

Most def. Perhaps we are on the brink of a new type of 'Moore's law' where it isn't the transistor count that expands every so many months, but the number of cores. With the physical limits on silicon clockspeed can't increase forever, so programmers in all fields are going to have to learn to program for multi-core architecture. Who knows, by 2010 we could be looking at 32 core CPUs.

I have no doubt we are headed down that road with the limitations of silicon at this point, I just didnt know we had quads already... i thought that was coming 1Q07.... or later...