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$50,000 Folding box

TeeJayHoward

TeeJayHoward

Limpness Supreme
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Feb 8, 2005
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Assuming that I had $50,000 to fund a F@H box for my university... What would be the best way to go about building one? At the moment, I'm looking at a 42U dell rack full of 41 dual Xeon 2.4Ghz's w/ 1GB DDR and a Gigabit switch. (Reason for Rackmount: Minimal footprint, and about as much power as I can get for the price.)

Power consumption is not TOO big of an issue (but it shouldn't require a nuclear reactor), nor is dust (positive air pressure in server room)/overheating (Cold rooms... They're... Cold?). My school loves the idea, and will most likely let me run with it if I can keep it under the $50,000 mark. I've never really built heavy-duty systems before, gaming's more my thing, and from what I understand, OC-ing in a server environment == stupid.

 
Sounds good.. just make sure to run it properly..
name: KodiakStar
team: 33
 
Not trying to start a amd/intel war, but a serious question: Which folds faster, Opterons or Xeons? Or I guess I should ask, which gets more PPD?

 
Is space or price the bigger premium? You can certainly get more power for that price by sacrificing space (i.e. ATX towers).
 
It's a fairly big room, but a matter of personal preference for racks. If I can get more power for the price by NOT going rackmount, then by all means! I was actually requesting an example of what you would build. I was under the impression a Dual Xeon 2.4Ghz with 1GB RAM and a smallish HDD was a good deal for $900.
 
I know this is hypothetical (I think) but what exactly is the point? Do you get money for Folding more then someone else? It's just I see people with like 3 or 4 PIIIs all for folding. I just have a folding running on my current comp. And thats all I need (On the shroomery team)
 
mr_ouija said:
Not trying to start a amd/intel war, but a serious question: Which folds faster, Opterons or Xeons? Or I guess I should ask, which gets more PPD?

Click to expand...

It depends on the WU. Opterons are faster at Tinker cores. In general Xeons are faster at Gromacs (based more on PR rating). Others may have other opinions. Pentium-M's are the best at Gromacs but totally die on Tinkers. Personnally, I would go with LV Opterons, otherwise you are going to have too much heat buildup.
 
I could get 253 ECS KM400 w/Sempron 2200+ combos for $50k.... Each would pull down about 58k points a year.... so 253 x 58 ~= 14.6 Million points/yr.... Which would quickly put me up there in the ranks with OCAMD... lol... at least in production... roughly 40k a day.... lol


Keep on Folding!!

 
I could get 253 ECS KM400 w/Sempron 2200+ combos...
Click to expand...

ECS? On [H]? Shame on you... Really...

As for the "Why" aspect... I think it's more along the lines of "Why not?". The school is willing to pay for the components and the cost of power and bandwidth. For all I know, they could be writing it off as a charity donation. All I know is, I get a chance to learn about big toys, and help people in the process.

Another quick question: The majority of the work is done in a single machine, correct? There's really no need for fiber to connect these boxes unless I'm clustering them, right? And, applications like folding@home would be more efficient on 100 single machines the same spec then on a cluster of those same machines... Right?
 
TeeJayHoward said:
It's a fairly big room, but a matter of personal preference for racks. If I can get more power for the price by NOT going rackmount, then by all means! I was actually requesting an example of what you would build. I was under the impression a Dual Xeon 2.4Ghz with 1GB RAM and a smallish HDD was a good deal for $900.
Click to expand...

That is a pretty good deal; I assume that's the price at the school's purchase plan? I sure wasn't able to build that on the Dell site.

Still, assemble the same thing in towers and the savings in racks and rack rails alone will let you buy 1 or 2 more systems. Buy some Nexel chrome restaurant-grade shelving (hell, the school probably has some laying around you could use) to keep them on.

Oh yeah, and don't forget to ebay all those free mice and keyboards you're getting! Might pay for all the Cat6 you're going to use. :D
 
No reason to fiber connect or even use Cat6... 10/100 would be more than enough... F@H doesn't take advantage of clusters... so you'd have to install a client (or 2 or 4) on each PC...


As for ECS... it is/was a cheap combo, and a solid board 5 months into it (running 24/7 since about 10 minutes after I the UPS guy dropped it off)... Call it spare change boxen...


Keep on Folding!!

 
No reason to fiber connect or even use Cat6... 10/100 would be more than enough... F@H doesn't take advantage of clusters... so you'd have to install a client (or 2 or 4) on each PC...
Click to expand...

That's what I thought, was just checking to make sure. The gigabit switch is the school's, as is the cabling. They made a mistake in ordering one of their servers earlier, and ended up with 2x 24-port gigabit switches. And my college ALWAYS has Cat-6 laying around. Boxes and boxes of it.

As for ECS... it is/was a cheap combo, and a solid board 5 months into it (running 24/7 since about 10 minutes after I the UPS guy dropped it off)...
Click to expand...

I've just had bad experiences with ECS/PcChips in the past. Very bad. Besides, does that price count in RAM, case, PSU, etc? This is a professional-type area. I can't have mobo's laying around like I do in my room :) Also, while I'm on the subject, remember this is just a proposal. I'm sure they'd be a lot more likely to go for it if I could end up making it pretty. As in, blinky LEDs and shiny stuff crammed into a small space. The dean really seems to like crap like that.

Edit: The more and more I think about it, the less likely I find it to be that the dean would go for anything other than rackmount anyway. I guess I have to rephrase my question. Can I build a comparable or even (gasp!) better system then a 1u dual Xeon 2.4/1GB for $900?
 
Actually... that was with everything BUT case (no monitor)... with a case... probably more like 190 machines.... which is still 11M pts/year... 30k pts/day....

Is it a server room (raised flooring for ventilation,etc)? heat might be an issue? Spreading them out into single cases may help...

Does Dell still have that deal for the SC420 or SC240, whatever it was, going on?? Hito grabbed one... I think it has a Celey in it though... But a server for $250-300 ain't bad... that's about 175 PCs.... all nice black Dells


Keep on Folding!!

 
I don't know... chrome shelves upon shelves of grey/blue towers is a pretty impressive sight. Plus an empty server room is kind of depressing; make them feel all that space is useful.
 
Does Dell still have that deal for the SC420 or SC240, whatever it was, going on?? Hito grabbed one... I think it has a Celey in it though... But a server for $250-300 ain't bad... that's about 175 PCs.... all nice black Dells
Click to expand...

The PowerEdge SC420, eh? Took a look at it.

2.8Ghz P4 w/512DDR = $423 before shipping. Probably around $400 each with school discount. I hate the bulky cases, but I might be able to live with them if the dean can :)

$50,000 / $400 = 125 servers. Closer to 120 servers after I buy enough baking racks to fit everything. How do the P4s compare to the Xeons? Anyone?
 
rackmounted systems look more professional, end of story. Who wants 170+ mid-tower cases piled up all around the room? plus wireing it up will make it look like a rats nest, get nice good racks with clean cable management systems and you'll impress more people.
 
Othersider said:
You're gonna need more switches... :D
Click to expand...

Good point... Forgot about that. Doh! Luckily, Dell = t3h ch34p. It'd only cost me about one server to buy 2 more switches. So, 117 servers, not 120. Poot.
 
I'll sell you my crapper pile for $49,999.99. Shipping included with "professional" setup.

Please provide a signed PO.

Christ, I've got ~33k folding right now..... All XP OS so that's a huge hit.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Good point... Forgot about that. Doh! Luckily, Dell = t3h ch34p. It'd only cost me about one server to buy 2 more switches. So, 117 servers, not 120. Poot.
Click to expand...

96 is a nice round number. 4 wire cages, 24 machines each, with the whole cage on its own switch and UPS. Then each cage only needs 1 ethernet and 1 power line coming out of it. Very neat (especially if you spring for Nexel's wire channeling products).
 
Myself, I would get as many of these as I could. Then just put in some 242's and 512MB (or even 256MB) of RAM per processor.

Or, for the Intel side, get these and run 8 instances of F@H per box.
 
What school do you go to? I wish my school had $50K to blow on stuff like that.

 
sac_tagg said:
Myself, I would get as many of these as I could. Then just put in some 242's and 512MB (or even 256MB) of RAM per processor.
Click to expand...

"these" = $1300
4x Opteron 846 2GHz @ $677 EACH
2GB Reg DDR @ $250 PER GIG (4x512, 512 per proc)
Cheap tower case and decent PSU @ $200
Cheap HDD @ $50
Misc @ $50

Total price for ONE system: ~$4800-$4900.
Total price for FOUR systems comparable to that one? ~$1600

Or, for the Intel side, get these and run 8 instances of F@H per box.
Click to expand...

... I'll not even TRY to begin pricing THAT one :)

Edit: I should mention, though. I'm going to have wet dreams about that quad-proc sys...
 
I'd tend toward the tower boxes, I'd guess you wouldn't need to worry as much about heat problems with those.

Interested in fold-server? You could get them HDless and save some $ that way... ;)
 
I was looking at something like that. Originally planned on the 42U rack of 1U dells, so they had HDDs anyway. No way to get rid of em. If I built the sys myself, I was gonna go debian with boot-on-lan. I see no reason NOT to use fold-server :)
 
I've been looking at Dell's site... Can't find diskless systems anywhere. Any links?

Oh, and did you know the 2400 supports:
dell.com said:
Up to 512 GB of shared1 dual channel DDR SDRAM 400 MHz (performs at 333 MHz with 533 FSB processor)
Click to expand...
:eek:

Edit: You'll want to call beforehand, but here are my two favorite configs: tower dual xeon ($1874.24, could get 26), 1u dual xeon ($2097.28, could get 24). Number of computers buyable doesn't count racks, etc.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Assuming that I had $50,000 to fund a F@H box for my university... What would be the best way to go about building one? At the moment, I'm looking at a 42U dell rack full of 41 dual Xeon 2.4Ghz's w/ 1GB DDR and a Gigabit switch. (Reason for Rackmount: Minimal footprint, and about as much power as I can get for the price.)

<snip>.
Click to expand...
You should not ask a question such as
What would be the best way to go about building one?
Click to expand...
With the only caveat being: Minimal footprint, and about as much power as I can get for the price.

And then expect us to go with what you want.

You should have just said that you were going to build it.

OSUguys comments were right on. If you were willing to put some effort into it you should be able to either build a stacked machine for $200/CPU,MB,PSU,RAM or go to dell and get one of their desktop deals for about $250/desktop. Each of these solutions should get you about 2.4Ghz of power per CPU. So that's maybe 200 @ 2.4Ghz CPU's, versus 82 cpu's. OR - about 480Ghz versus about 200Ghz.
And there's nothing saying you couldn't buy the dells and gut them out to make a Turnelle stack.
A nice full rack (don't forget UPS's) is pretty. Twice the power is also pretty.

 
Hate_Bot said:
I know this is hypothetical (I think) but what exactly is the point? Do you get money for Folding more then someone else? It's just I see people with like 3 or 4 PIIIs all for folding. I just have a folding running on my current comp. And thats all I need (On the shroomery team)
Click to expand...

It's called epenis enlargement :D

But at least in this case for a good cause.
 
Hey TeeJay....you asked about the difference in P4's vs. Xeon's for folding. THe difference is small. We have found that the celeron d's on the Intel side are the sweet price/performance spot.


Can your school purchase through HP or are you locked into dell?
 
My math bites, sorry. The only way you can get 96 machines easily is by running independent power to the school UPSes. A little messy. Otherwise the UPS cost kills it.
 
gnewbury said:
OSUguys comments were right on. If you were willing to put some effort into it you should be able to either build a stacked machine for $200/CPU,MB,PSU,RAM...
Click to expand...


$200/box would be lovely. Unfortunatly, I cannot find a way to make this happen short of a miracle. I will not buy 100+ boxes of crap, only to spend the next 2 years diagnosing why it doesn't work. A decent desktop machine is about $500-$600, not $200.

... or go to dell and get one of their desktop deals for about $250/desktop.
Click to expand...


Dell does not have desktop deals for $250/desktop. Not in anything that doesn't fall in the "crap" category above. The SC420 line I looked at was pretty much their low-end offering of non-crap.

Each of these solutions should get you about 2.4Ghz of power per CPU. So that's maybe 200 @ 2.4Ghz CPU's, versus 82 cpu's. OR - about 480Ghz versus about 200Ghz.
And there's nothing saying you couldn't buy the dells and gut them out to make a Turnelle stack.
A nice full rack (don't forget UPS's) is pretty. Twice the power is also pretty.
Click to expand...

The Turnelle stack? Never heard of it. Could someone tell me what this is?

I work in my school's IT department as a workstudy. I'm CONSTANTLY being brought in Dells with busted PSUs, HDDs, or shot RAM sticks. Then again, my school only buys Dells for the faculty/staff, so I have to take this with a grain of salt. It IS nice to have the replacement parts free, though :)
 
gnewbury said:
You should not ask a question such as...
...And then expect us to go with what you want.

You should have just said that you were going to build it.
Click to expand...

I tossed up what I was currently looking at, hoping for "No, don't buy Dell servers! They have a habit of their second ram slot on cpu1 dying!" or some such. Or, the positive responses I got suggesting the use of tower cases instead of rackmount. I've got nothing against it. I was also hoping for a response, like, "If you buy part x from distributer y, it'll save you $100/board! Then you could get 40 more machines, AND get the chance to build it yourself."

*sigh*

It's not working, though.
 
http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/articles/howto/FAH_Diskless_Farm_1.html is the turmelle stack.

I might suggest buying dells with say only 512MB of memory and getting the rest from Newegg (swap it all around so you've got all the same kind in one box, though!). That's about it if you're planning to get real boxen and make it look pretty.

And pretty it will look... We'll need some DC pr0n from this, ya know.

I don't think this question has been answered - what school is this? There may be someone in your area that could help with setup or something.
 
If you've got $50K to spend at one go, you could even go the less conventional route and contact NewEgg, MWave, or other such place and ask about BULK discounts. They may even be able to preassemble them for you, at a minimal price (possibly even free, just because business=good).

By the same token, you should definitely CALL a Dell CSR rather than use pre-built systems off their website. The moment you say "four zeroes after that," a whole world of possibilities will present itself. For example, you can custom-order rigs without hard drives or pre-installed OSes! Remember how a WinXP Home license costs you $60 from Dell? Ask them to spec out a cheap Dimension desktop, WITHOUT XP! It'll easily drop to the $200 pricepoint, especially after you take out all of the nonessentials- OS, HD, floppy, maybe even opticals! Alternatively, they may throw in a rack for free after you buy 42 servers.
 
... use LV xeons if you can. (lower power).
... $900 for the system you are talking about is great.
... opterons would be a lower TCO. (power mostly the though) .. but more cash likely due to your schools pricing for the dell.
... don't OC in serverland... get big UPS... stay with the 1 gig ram... two copies of FAH (we can show you how to setup) per proc.

cheers,

 
TeeJayHoward said:
I tossed up what I was currently looking at, hoping for "No, don't buy Dell servers! They have a habit of their second ram slot on cpu1 dying!" or some such. Or, the positive responses I got suggesting the use of tower cases instead of rackmount. I've got nothing against it. I was also hoping for a response, like, "If you buy part x from distributer y, it'll save you $100/board! Then you could get 40 more machines, AND get the chance to build it yourself."

*sigh*

It's not working, though.
Click to expand...

For the price that a school getrs on Dell discounts there isn't a much better option unless you can buy from another big OEM. That is why I asked if you could order from HP.

And if you go Intel go LV like others have said.
 
KodiakStar said:
Sounds good.. just make sure to run it properly..
name: KodiakStar
team: 33
Click to expand...

Actually, setting it to fold under the name "KodiakStar" has been known to cause bugs. The correct name is: "PoisonedPawn45" :D

 
Just a quick note before I go back to writing my proposal (4 pages and counting! Ick!) - The "What school is this?" comment.

I'll never tell! Bwah-ha-ha!

Actually, I'm attending the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, and should note that the school does NOT have the money for this this year, but rather at the beginning of the next semester, I am going to try and persuade the school to allocate an additional $50,000 to the IT dept. If anyone reading this actually ATTENDS this school, PLEASE keep this a secret. Only me and like two techies on staff know about my plans so far.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
$200/box would be lovely. Unfortunatly, I cannot find a way to make this happen short of a miracle. I will not buy 100+ boxes of crap, only to spend the next 2 years diagnosing why it doesn't work. A decent desktop machine is about $500-$600, not $200.
Click to expand...

Substitute an Abit VA-20 (or VA-10) for roughly $55... Or take a look at
this thread and piece together the system of your choosing... I've improved that spreadsheet a bit here and there... and I can work with you over the next few days to add data (preferrably from Newegg, because the purpose of this spreadsheet is a common base to work off of) and make it a little better...


Keep on Folding!!

 
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