$4,000 To Spend

alik4041 said:
The minimum would be about 3.2 or so? On average about 3.4-3.6. Look at the above pics that I posted. With that memory and motherboard, you should have no problems exceeding 3.4 (not a gurantee ofcourse).
Click to expand...

What do you mean the minimum would be about 3.2?
Is that how much the E6600 would overclock or how much the X6800 would?
That isn't the difference, is it?

Anyway, my main hard drive would be the 10,000rpm Raptor 150Gb, but for my secondary drive I don't need more than 100Gb. I went with the WD Caviar 80Gb 7,200rpm. (A total of 230Gb)

Also, is a QX6700 overclocked at 3.2 slower than, for example, an E6600 overclocked at 3.6?
 
shivang222 said:
What do you mean the minimum would be about 3.2?
Is that how much the E6600 would overclock or how much the X6800 would?
That isn't the difference, is it?

Anyway, my main hard drive would be the 10,000rpm Raptor 150Gb, but for my secondary drive I don't need more than 100Gb. I went with the WD Caviar 80Gb 7,200rpm. (A total of 230Gb)

Also, is a QX6700 overclocked at 3.2 slower than, for example, an E6600 overclocked at 3.6?
Click to expand...

Noone could tell you that although they could give you a rough guesstimate. One proc could overclock like crap and the other can be a champ.

Why not run a RAID 1 array since your data is important to ya?

Well it matters what your doing. In gaming the e6600 is arguably quicker. But in 4 instances of say SuperPI the QX6700 is faster. Ect....
 
I know.. I was just asking what the numbers he gave me means..

How exactly do you run RAID, and what is it?

Also, what is SuperPI?
 
shivang222 said:
I know.. I was just asking what the numbers he gave me means..

How exactly do you run RAID, and what is it?

Also, what is SuperPI?
Click to expand...

Im not really sure what he means it was rather unclear which proc he was talking about although I assumed the e6600.

"In computing, the acronym RAID (originally redundant array of inexpensive drives, also known as redundant array of independent drives) refers to a data storage scheme using multiple hard drives to share or replicate data among the drives. Depending on the configuration of the RAID (typically referred to as the RAID level), the benefit of RAID is to increase data integrity, fault-tolerance, throughput and/or capacity, compared with single drives. In its original implementations, its key advantage was the ability to combine multiple low-cost devices using older technology into an array that offered greater capacity, reliability, speed, or a combination of these things, than was affordably available in a single device using the newest technology."
RAID 1: Mirrored Set (2 disks) without parity: provides fault tolerance from disk errors and single disk failure. Increased read performance occurs when using a multi-threaded operating system that supports split seeks, very small performance reduction when writing. Array continues to operate with one failed drive.

Super PI is a computer program that calculates pi to a specified number of digits after the decimal point - up to a maximum of 32 million. It uses FFT arithmetic and Borwein's quartically-convergent algorithm and is a Windows port of the program used by Yasumasa Kanada in 1995 to compute Pi to 232 digits.
 
shivang222 said:
So how exactly could I run my rig in RAID?
What do I have to do?
Click to expand...

It depends what RAID configuration you're after. Personally, i don't think it's worth the trouble. You will need 2 or more hard drives and a RAID controller, i believe. You will see little benefits from it if you're gaming, there have numerous threads on the matter.
 
Can someone please tell me what I would have to do to have a RAID setup?
(maximum is 2 drives)
 
Shivang,

If you are planning on buying a 150 Gig Raptor and an alternate 100 Gig drive (for two drives total,) then you can't RAID them. For RAID to work, the drives must be the same size, and for best results, I'd recommend that RAIDed drives are the same speed, make, and model.

The overarching concept of RAID is taking two or more drives and having them act together as one. There are three types of RAID common to desktops.

RAID-0 takes two drives of the same size and adds them together as one volume, such that two 100 Gig drives in RAID-0 become one 200 Gig volume. RAID-0 can give a small performance boost, since the motherboard is taking the data, splitting it half, and writing it to both drives at the same time (one half to each.) However, w/o external backup, RAID-0 is more risky, since you are relying on the health of two drives instead of one. If one drive fails, you loose all your data.

RAID-1 takes two drives of the same size and mirrors them, such that two 100 Gig drives in RAID-1 give you a 100 Gig volume. In this scenario, you give up the entire space of the second drive to have an automatic backup of the data on your first drive. When data is written to one drive, the entirety of that data is written to the mirror drive at the same time. However, it would be a mistake to consider a RAID-1 setup as a complete backup solution. RAID-1 only provides a safety net when one of your hard-drives fails. If you got a virus for example, the virus would be copied to both drives, corrupting both sets of data.

RAID-5 takes three drives of the same size and gives you the benefits of both RAID-0 and RAID-1. Two drives are combined into one volume while the third drive holds parity information which can be used to restore data if one of the three drives fails. So, if you had three 100 Gig drives, you would get a 200 Gig volume in RAID-5. However, RAID-5 does not provide the performance boost of 0, since the parity information must be written to the third drive. In some cases, the writing and reading of parity information may lead to a performance decrease, so you should evaluate whether or not RAID backup through 5 is necessary.

Keep in mind that the best way to backup your data is via external disk or file server, so that your data is off your computer.

As for the X6800 v E6600, there's no contest. While the best X6800 will overclock higher on air than the best E6600 (we're talking an averaged-best 3.8Ghz vs 3.6Ghz,) the chances of getting a X6800 to 3.8 on air is very slim. On the other hand, getting to 3.6 on air with an E6600 is pretty easy, assuming you don't get a lemon, and the only area you'll notice the difference of 200 Mhz is in benchmarking. The X6800 is a complete waste of money, since you're paying $1000 for two cores. Even if you had an $8000 "coupon", I think you'd be a fool to buy that processor. Get an E6600 or a quad core if you really want, but I wouldn't consider the X6800 at all.

(edit--added) Btw, as we've discussed, a 3.2Ghz QX6700 will not be any faster than a 3.2Ghz E6600 for about 90% of the programs you would run. The QX6700 would only be faster if a program took advantage of three or four cores. My advice to wait on the quad core stands. In a year, much better quad cores will be available at much cheaper prices. By that time, we should see more programs take advantage of the two extra cores. Right now however, $1000 for a quad core processor is a silly waste of money.

Regards,

Mark.
 
Markyip1 said:
As for the X6800 v E6600, there's no contest. While the best X6800 will overclock higher on air than the best E6600 (where talking an averaged-best 3.8Ghz vs 3.6Ghz,) the chances of getting a X6800 which gets to 3.8 on air is very slim. On the other hand, getting to 3.6 on air with an E6600 is pretty easy, assuming you don't get a lemon, and the only area you'll notice the difference of 200 Mhz is in benchmarking. The X6800 is a complete waste of money, since you're paying $1000 for two cores. Even if you had an $8000 "coupon", I think you'd be a fool to buy the processor. Get an E6600 or a quad core if you really want, but I wouldn't consider the X6800 at all.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Get an E6600, but if you have money left over in your budget then spring for a quad core. The cost of the X6800 can't be justified, unless you want to reach a stupidly high overclock on an exotic cooling method. Regardless, at high resolutions in games, an overclocked dual core processor doesn't gain you many more frames per second than a stock one anyway- so i wouldn't read much into it. Just get an E6600 (or quad core), and having the ability to overclock to get a little more for your money is a lot... better.. than spending $1000 on the X6800 when it isn't going to give you much performance gains (in games, that is). Someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but from some of the benchmarks i've read, the clock speed on these dual core processors doesn't make as much difference to game performance as one might assume.
 
This is what my machine looks like so far...


Case: Thermaltake Armor Black Full Tower Case with 25cm fan

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 (2.4 Ghz)
(Hope I get one that will overclock to about 3.6Ghz.)

Mobo: EVGA nForce 680i

GPU: 2X EVGA 8800GTX's Superclocked at 621Mhz

Memory: G.Skill 4Gb (2 X 2Gb) DDR2 800 5-5-5-15

Hard Drive: Western Digital Raptor 150gb 10,000rpm (For OS, games, and programs)
Western Digital Caviar 80gb 7,200rpm (For storage)
(I don't think I'm going to use RAID. It sounds like too much hassle for no real use. I can back up all my stuff on my other computer)

Disk Drive: Samsung 18X Dvd+R Burner 12X DVD-Ram Write

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro

Cooling: Tuniq Tower 120
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound

PSU: Silverstone Zeus 850w

Monitor: Dell 2407 (24inch)

OS: 64-bit Microsoft Vista Ultimate


Comments? I machine looks good and I still have like $500 left over! Any suggestions for upgrades?

Can anyone tell me in what programs, that I actually might use, would benefit from four cores? (I don't mean in just benchmarking, such as SuperPi)

By the way, Mark, your system looks very similiar to my system now. How do you like your rig?
 
Looks pretty good Shivang. Here is one last thing to consider....

Personally, if I were buying this system, I'd add more hard-disk space. I'm a believer in never having too much space. Even without hundreds of gigabytes of movies and music, I'd still want more than 200 gigs split between two separate drives.

Keep in mind that you plan to move to Windows Vista. This alone takes up 15 gigabytes of disk space. Now the only things I've put on my system so far are Vista, Office 2007, and some games (Flight Simulator X, Supreme Commander, Prey, F.E.A.R, Civ 4, BF2142, and Call of Duty 2.) There are some smaller programs I've installed like Trillian, Firefox, and Kaspersky for antivirus, but those don't take up much space. I've yet to install my other games and applications, or my backed up documents and media files. However, with this small list of things already installed, I've used 200 Gigabytes of disk space.

As the average computer comes with more and more hard disk space, programs are using more and more of it. You've put together one hell of a system, and while its all personal preference at this point, I'd just consider bumping up your second hard drive to a 500 Gig or 750 Gig. No need to buy two for a RAID, but I think with your current setup you'll run out of room faster than you realize.

Otherwise the system looks great. I've had a fantastic time with my system so far, although be warned that Vista is far from perfect with games. This will surely improve as nVidia and Creative (mostly Creative) get their act together. However, don't be shocked if you run F.E.A.R.'s benchmark, for example, and find that your system falls well short of the benchmarks published for similar rigs. In fact, expect to take a realistic 20-30% hit in many games for the next few months. The good news is that even with a performance hit, everything should still run perfectly smooth.

Also, you'll find that getting things to work with Vista may require some extra work. Take the X-Fi for example. With Creative's Vista drivers, which are awful, over 50% of your card's functionality will go unused. If you search Creative's Vista forum, you'll find that people are having success with a hacked driver and application suite released by a guy in China. You'll need to find a third party site to download this, because the home site's links are painfully slow. However, with this suite you'll be able to enable all the software and functionality that came with your card.

If Vista proves too much of a hassle, consider going back to XP short term, or dual boot both operating systems (for the best of both worlds.) Although in that situation, you'll probably want more hard disk space...

Anyway those are my thoughts. It's definitely looking good. Btw, I paid just under $2800 for my rig, but some of my components (including my sound card, speakers, mouse/keyboard set, and my second hard disk array) came from my old PC. The monitor was also purchased separately at a different time, so I don't include it as part of the cost of my rig. It's an expensive rig, but for $2,8000 I built a computer that is equal or better than $8,000 computers from Alienware and Voodoo. I'd call that a success.

Good luck. In my opinion, you've definitely speced out a worthy computer. Enjoy!

Mark.
 
Thanks Mark.
I plan on doing what you said, but which hard drive do you recommend to buy?
Should I just double up my 10,000rpm drive?

I don't need to have a floppy drive, right?

Finally, I need help to find a better case. I do not like this case because the I/O panel is on the top, which doesn't suit me. Also, some say the build isn't very good. Which case do you guys recommend?
 
Hi Shivang,

I do not have a list of programs or games that run on four cores. You might try googling the information. I know that very, very few programs and almost no games use four cores. Maybe Supreme Commander, but that's it.

Even if a program uses four cores, there's no sure way to say how faster it will be vs. running on two cores. The speed increase is dependent on how efficient the multi-threaded programming is. On a well developed program, you may see a large (70-80%) improvement, but again, I very much doubt you would use such a program or game in the near future.

I would not get a second 10,000 RPM drive for data, as you're spending at a huge premium for not that much space. The best solution for a non-raided setup is to get one 10,000 RPM drive for your programs, and one 500 or 750 Gig drive for your data. This drive will be 7,200RPM, but will still be quite fast and quiet. If you choose 500 Gigs, I recommend the Western Digital Caviar SE16. If you choose 750 Gigs, then your only choice is the Seagate Barracuda. Both are excellent choices.

For a case, I recommend looking at a Silverstone TJ-07 or any of the larger, more popular Lian-Lis. The TJ-07 and all Lian-Lis I've seen have inputs on the bottom. In my opinion, Silverstone and Lian-Li make the best cases money can buy, although you will pay more moeny for one.

Good luck,

Mark.
 
Should I get two Tuniq Towers? Asking because in the TJ-09, there are two 120mm fans..
Are there any leds on the case?
 
shivang222 said:
Should I get two Tuniq Towers? Asking because in the TJ-09, there are two 120mm fans..
Are there any leds on the case?
Click to expand...

No, not unless you have 2 CPUs. ;)

I'm not sure about LEDs, but, as far as i know, i don't think it does; in fact, i'm pretty confident it doesn't have any.
 
Oh okay.. so I only install the fan that is pointed toward the cpu?
anyway.. what are expansion slots that are on the case?
 
shivang222 said:
Oh okay.. so I only install the fan that is pointed toward the cpu?
anyway.. what are expansion slots that are on the case?
Click to expand...

The Tuniq Tower is a heatsink & fan, which attaches to the CPU. The TJ09 case comes with a couple of case fans, i believe, which will maintain the airflow through the case.

Expansion slots? Are you talking about slots at the back of the case for various PCI cards, or USB, firewire, audio connectors etc. that the case has?
 
I'm not sure, but for my case specifications, it says my case has 7 "expansion slots"...


Does overclocking significantly shorten the lifespan of a CPU?
 
Look in my sig.... replace E6600 with a QX6700 quad core, swap the 74Gb raptors for 150Gb, swap the 320Gb HDDs for Hitachi Spinpoint 500Gb HDDs, add a second 8800GTX, and voila, $4,000 easy (or more!) (Picture of it in the TJ09 thread under Cases & Cooling)
 
Curr said:
Look in my sig.... replace E6600 with a QX6700 quad core, swap the 74Gb raptors for 150Gb, swap the 320Gb HDDs for Hitachi Spinpoint 500Gb HDDs, add a second 8800GTX, and voila, $4,000 easy (or more!) (Picture of it in the TJ09 thread under Cases & Cooling)
Click to expand...


Stop confusing me!!
 
Sorry ;)

Just put my system together (minus 1 dead raptor :( ) so figured I would add my 2 cents! Runs very stable so far, and I'm very happy with it (upgraded from a P4 3GHz Prescott / X850XT PE).

Just make sure *you* are happy with the parts you buy / manufacturers you choose. Forums are a great place to gather other peoples opinions, but always take it all in with a grain of salt, and make sure you do your homework. I've been gathering info to make the choices below for the last 3 months (I'm very anal about research, I blame my job)
 
Yeah...Initially, I wanted a quad core, but it seems like I would have a better chance of reaching a higher overclock with the E6600, thus making it the faster processor for most programs...


BTW... why would two disk drives be helpful?
 
In my opinion, I'm having very good results with my E6600. I am still only 50mV over stock (1.375 vs. 1.325) and running Orthos stable at 3GHz and 42/43C with my intake fan on low. For the QX6700, I didn't know if you were spending money just to spend $4,000, wanted the top-notch everything, or just wanted a very nice rig, made of top quality components.

Multiple drives give you flexibility. Raid, more storage, back up... I download a lot. So having a LOT of storage is important to me. If speed was important to you, you could RAID 0 the Raptors. If safety was important, you could RAID 1 them. Hell, I toyed with the idea of buying 5 320Gb and running RAID 5, which is still quite speedy, and very safe (but would have had to add a "real" hardware RAID card as I'm not sold on motherboard solutions) and would have been more hassle to setup that I wanted to deal with.

I sat down, made a list of what I wanted to have the machine do, be good at, and how much I was willing to spend. Then I did a ton of research and came up with what I wanted. I wanted a C: and D: drive that were fast for OS, Games, and App's (the Raptors) and enough storage for Mp3, and "other" downlaods (the Barracudas).

I do plan on putting 2 of the Hitachi Spinpoint 500Gb HDDs in RAID 1 in my system in the future for files that I want to keep safe.

Good luck on your build!
 
Shivang,

I recommend you settle on your last setup plus the last changes you had in mind--increased hard disk space and a better case. You've spent a great deal of time doing research and figuring out what's best, and at the same time you've created a long, detailed thread that will be most helpful for future readers looking to build an expensive dream machine.

Early in the thread, you've considered setups that many of us would deem a waste of money, even for a extremely high-end system. Now you have a setup that kicks serious ass, but does so sensibly. Your money is distributed such that your spending the most on the components that have the biggest impact on performance (i.e. the video cards,) while scaling back on components that would offer little more than an opportunity to flush money away (i.e. the processor.)

You've already determined that you don't want to do RAID (which requires two hard drives of the same speed and size.) If you don't fully understand what it is and the implications that come with enabling it, then I recommend you don't worry about it.

Also, by your comments, I'd wager that you don't have much experience building your own PC. To clarify with everyone else, the Tuniq Tower is not just a fan, but a heat-sink/fan air-cooling unit that attaches to your processor. If you haven't already, open up the case of your current computer and take a look inside. See if you can identify all the parts. Note that the processor, which by itself is a thin component, will have a large heatsink and/or fan attached to it. When you put your system together, you will have to first insert the processor into the motherboard, then similarly attach the Tuniq Tower so that it sits atop of it. This, btw, isn't always easy if you're not that dexterous, but it's by no means hard. You might want to pick up a book or magazine that details how to put your own PC together, and definitely come to the forums for help. If this is your first build, you'll likely want some hand holding.

Regards,

Mark.
 
Mark

You've been such a great help throughout this whole time, thanks. I would love to have you around when I need help for building my first pc, which I have very limited knowledge about...

also, how would you use two disk drives?
i.e. two samsung 18x dvd writers
 
You're very welcome.

Installing two burners is easy. Place one in the top bay and the second in the bay below. If they're SATA then you just connect the power and data cables and that's it. If they're PATA, then you may need to set one drive as Master and the second as Slave. Since these would be your only PATA components, that would be all the extra work required.

Up and running, having two burners is like having two CD drives. You can use both at the same time and burn two things at the same time. In older times, the main benefit of having two drives was being able to directly copy CDs w/o having to formally transfer music or data to the hard drive first. Not sure how much of a benefit that will be now... at least for me--I haven't bought a CD in years.

My only recommendation with two drives is to make sure that you install all your games using the same drive. Some games may look to the drive you installed from when performing a CD-verification when you want to play, and it's a pain in the ass to have to remember which drive to use for which game.

Enjoy,

Mark.
 
Shivang, is this computer going to be used for gaming only or will it serve other functions, too? I'm asking because having 2 DVD burners and a 500GB+ storage drive may not be necessary for the machine to serve its purpose (i.e. if it's only going to be used for gaming). But if you're going to be using it as a media center type-of-thing, too, then the need for such things can be justified. I was just thinking of ways to save you a little bit of cash, but, thinking about it, the amount of money you'll could be saving by cutting a few corners here is pretty negligible.

So basically, what purposes will this thing serve so we can get a slightly better idea of where money can be spent more usefully? Sorry if it's been mentioned previously in this thread, although i've been following from the very beginning, there's still a good few pages to read through and my memory is completely failing me at the moment.

By the way, the expansion slots on the Silverstone case are the slots on the back of the case where PCI card outputs can... protrude (sorry, i can't think of a better word; it seems my vocabulary is failing me, too).
 
This machine will be for gaming and for media, so do you think I should get two dvd burners?

Also, sorry but I'm really confused with this, do I have to seperately buy something to put on the back of my case so I would be able to have usb ports, connect my internet wire, or plug in my mouse/audio?

How do I know if my case has these connections?
 
shivang222 said:
This machine will be for gaming and for media, so do you think I should get two dvd burners?

Also, sorry but I'm really confused with this, do I have to seperately buy something to put on the back of my case so I would be able to have usb ports, connect my internet wire, or plug in my mouse/audio?

How do I know if my case has these connections?
Click to expand...

I can't figure out the point of having two DVD burners, because even if you burn a LOT of DVDs, it seems like DVD burning is system intensive and you won't be able to go much faster with two than with one.

To answer your second question: your mouse and your keyboard are likely USB plugs. Check them, if they aren't, they will probably be round plugs with pins. These are called PS/2 plugs. Now, in order to have USB ports, PS/2 ports, or plugs for the internet wire (called an ethernet port), some part of your computer needs to have a chip which handles each of those things. These days, it's pretty standard for all of those things to come on the motherboard. I checked your motherboard, and here's what it's got:

Rear Panel Ports
PS/2 2
USB 6 x USB 2.0
IEEE 1394 1 x IEEE 1394a
S/PDIF Out 1x Optical
Audio Ports 6 Ports
Onboard USB
Onboard USB 2 x USB 2.0 connectors support 4 ports.

This means that in the motherboard slot on the back of your case, there will be two PS/2 plugs, 6 USB 2.0 plugs, one ethernet plug (that's the IEEE 1394a thing), and that your system has onboard sound so it will have plugs for any computer speakers you may own. The "Onboard USB" thing means that they've thrown in another USB 2 chip somewhere on the board. If you have need of more than 6 USB plugs, and you have a free PCI slot, they've included a little bracket that plugs into your motherboard and screws into the back of your case in the place of a PCI slot that has 4 more USB 2 plugs.
 
Ohh.. thanks that helped a lot...

Can anyone point me out to a good keyboard under $50?
I want preferably black..
 
Probably my final config:

Case: Silverstone TJ09-BW Black

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 (2.4 Ghz)

Mobo: EVGA nForce 680i

GPU: 2X EVGA 8800GTX's Superclocked at 621Mhz

Memory: G.Skill 4Gb (2 X 2Gb) DDR2 800 5-5-5-15

Hard Drive: Western Digital Raptor 150gb 10,000rpm
Western Digital Caviar RE2 500Gb 7,200rpm

Disk Drive: Samsung 18X Dvd+R Burner 12X DVD-Ram Write

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro

Cooling: Tuniq Tower 120
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound

PSU: Silverstone Zeus 850w

OS: Microsoft Windows Vista 64-bit Ultimate

Monitor: Dell 2407 (24inch)

Keyboard: Saitek Eclipse Keyboard (black)

Mouse: Windows Wireless IntelliMouse Explorer (already own)

Speakers: Logitech X-230 Black Speakers (already own)

Total: $4,017

Any final suggestions? How does the price look? Anything I should have that I'm missing?
 
Looks great Shivang. You're good to go! Good luck with the build. Again, I recommend buying a magazine or a book that will show you how to build a PC. Both should be current enough such that they cover Core 2 systems, but such a book or magazine shouldn't be hard to find.

Have fun and enjoy.

Mark.
 
This guide might come in useful, too, it's pretty thorough. By the way, you might be better off getting Vista Home Premium instead of the Ultimate Edition, unless you're going to use the extra features that come with it.
 
What is the difference between Vista Home Premium and Vista Ultimate?

How does my keyboard look?
I have all I will need to build a pc right? nothing missing right? (even the obvious little stuff...)
 
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