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360 or PS3?

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Stereophile said:
Blame Valve for dropping the ball. They simply don't care enough about their product to ensure a quality effort. They farmed it out to EA! :rolleyes:

There is no excuse when other developers like Naughty Dog, Ninja Theory, Infinity Ward get results on the PS3 hardware. The microsoft millionaire has a known phobia of non MS/Direct X platforms. Valve has never traditionally done "console" games. But they could've handled it a lot better. Selling slapped together ports reflects poorly on them. The box says Valve not EA budgetware.

A shame for any PS3 owning OB fans, but most I suspect have got it for PC already. I got my copy for $25 on black friday. You never get new A+ console games that cheap.
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Gabe said in so many words that he does not like the PS3 at all. I don't think it's that surprising that Orange Box doesn't perform perfectly on the PS3. I'm not saying that is right, just not surprising.
 
Defective said:
Gabe said in so many words that he does not like the PS3 at all. I don't think it's that surprising that Orange Box doesn't perform perfectly on the PS3. I'm not saying that is right, just not surprising.
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Any links? I'm too lazy for googling atm. I'm willing to be the gaming industry is more "corrupt" than we want to believe.
 
PS3 IMO.

Ratchet & Clank: Future and Uncharted are the two best next gen games. 360 is good too, but I give the edge to PS3. Also, PS3 has the best 2008 lineup for sure.
 
Defective said:
Hmmm I don't know about corrupt. Valve clearly didn't want to actually put their own hands on the PS3 though.

Here's a link for you. I think you'll get a few if you google it.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thu...s-gabe-newell-sounds-off-about-games-industry
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That was a generalization. Not everyone is corrupt of course. I don't know much about Gabe though. He's seems to just not like the path ps3 has chosen. I think he's saying that the ps3 is different than rest so what's done there can't be applied anywhere else, I dunno, I play fps on the pc mostly anyway, lol.

IMO the ps3 is a great platform. There's a lot that can be done, and I'm excited to get mine this x-mas.
 
And he made the decision on the first page...lol

Let it die people...no one is going to win the argument ever. :p
 
Stereophile said:
Blame Valve for dropping the ball. They simply don't care enough about their product to ensure a quality effort. They farmed it out to EA! :rolleyes:

There is no excuse when other developers like Naughty Dog, Ninja Theory, Infinity Ward get results on the PS3 hardware. The microsoft millionaire has a known phobia of non MS/Direct X platforms. Valve has never traditionally done "console" games. But they could've handled it a lot better. Selling slapped together ports reflects poorly on them. The box says Valve not EA budgetware.

A shame for any PS3 owning OB fans, but most I suspect have got it for PC already. I got my copy for $25 on black friday. You never get new A+ console games that cheap.
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Yep, Gabe Newell has shown his obvious distaste for the PS3. My opinion is that Valve is just too lazy to learn the PS3 and program on it properly. We all know the PS3 could easily be running it at least as good as the 360's version

Gabe would probably rather be spend his extra time eating twinkies.
 
4saken said:
Yep, Gabe Newell has shown his obvious distaste for the PS3. My opinion is that Valve is just too lazy to learn the PS3 and program on it properly. We all know the PS3 could easily be running it at least as good as the 360's version

Gabe would probably rather be spend his extra time eating twinkies.
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Ahh, the famous "Developer is too lazy" comment . . .

Now, I think it is true that it could run the same on the PS3 as on the 360. It isn't lazyness, it is the efficient allocation of resources. It's more of a money decision than a "lazy" issue. Companies dump millions into developing games that take a huge amount of time to develop and then all of a sudden they become lazy? Yep, that makes sense.
 
Gabe is lazy. I don't blame Valve for not wanting to do the PS3 version themselves. They are a PC developer. However, there is no reason they couldn't hire the right people to perform a competent job. Do it right or not at all.
 
Stereophile said:
Gabe is lazy. I don't blame Valve for not wanting to do the PS3 version themselves. They are a PC developer. However, there is no reason they couldn't hire the right people to perform a competent job. Do it right or not at all.
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How is that lazy? My guess is that they got the best deal from EA to do the conversion. The PS3 isn't the platform of choice for this type of game and I don't think they saw themselves as making a huge amount of money off of that version and I would bet that it was going to take alot of work to port it themselves. If you want to accuse them of not caring too much about the PS3 platform, I think that is obvious. If they really cared about developing for the PS3, they would have done it themselves. Considering the profit margin though, I'm sure they were happy to dump it off onto someone else who has some experience working with the PS3 . . . even if it was EA.
 
Stereophile said:
Gabe is lazy. I don't blame Valve for not wanting to do the PS3 version themselves. They are a PC developer. However, there is no reason they couldn't hire the right people to perform a competent job. Do it right or not at all.
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He's not lazy; he's intelligent. Valve is primarily a PC company. He thinks that the PS3 architecture will be gone next generation and that means he will have essentially spent a boatload of money to train Valve personnel on PS3 architecture for one game, maybe two.

It makes sense. We have no idea if Sony will stick with the Cell; in fact, it's likely they won't since they sold off their manufacturing stake in the architecture to Toshiba. Those kind of manuevres don't exactly instill faith in companies like Valve to spend valuable resources to learn a system that will be gone within 5-6 years. It makes sense for those companies to outsource their ports to companies like EA who already have experience with Cell (even though it might not be great experience). Add in the fact that it is virtually guaranteed that the PS3 will have the lowest-selling version of the Orange Box and MS offers great tools for PC-to-360 development and it becomes even more of a no-brainer to outsource PS3 work and keep 360 stuff in-house.

I think you're confusing smart business with laziness. It makes sense for some companies to learn Cell; for others, not so much. Valve obviously falls into the "not so much" category based on their PC background, limited games, and slow releases.
 
4saken said:
Yep, Gabe Newell has shown his obvious distaste for the PS3. My opinion is that Valve is just too lazy to learn the PS3 and program on it properly. We all know the PS3 could easily be running it at least as good as the 360's version

Gabe would probably rather be spend his extra time eating twinkies.
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I agree, the PS3 could probably run at least as good as the 360 version. Problem is, games consistently don't. For whatever reason, doesnt matter.
 
Furystrike said:
I agree, the PS3 could probably run at least as good as the 360 version. Problem is, games consistently don't. For whatever reason, doesnt matter.
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Your choice of words is wrong. Thats what I ment by wrong. Games that don't get a lot of time and are quickly ported to PS3 don't run well, games that dev's spent time porting over run just as well if not better than other version. DiRT and Oblivion are 2 exp of this. COD4 runs the same on both X360 and PS3, so your choice of "games consistently don't" is wrong.
 
Baker said:
Your choice of words is wrong. Thats what I ment by wrong. Games that don't get a lot of time and are quickly ported to PS3 don't run well, games that dev's spent time porting over run just as well if not better than other version. DiRT and Oblivion are 2 exp of this. COD4 runs the same on both X360 and PS3, so your choice of "games consistently don't" is wrong.
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I agree, there are games that run equal on both platforms. However, mutli-platform titles come to the PS3 with some (regularity, consistency, frequency...whatever you want to say. you get the point).

COD3, FEAR, and now the Orange box are examples. At the moment, I don't think there is a multiplatform title on IGN that scores higher on the PS3 than the 360.

your move
 
Furystrike said:
I agree, there are games that run equal on both platforms. However, mutli-platform titles come to the PS3 with some (regularity, consistency, frequency...whatever you want to say. you get the point).

COD3, FEAR, and now the Orange box are examples. At the moment, I don't think there is a multiplatform title on IGN that scores higher on the PS3 than the 360.

your move
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If all you are comparing your information to is IGN, you have a problem. IGN is a lazy, they don't (for the most part) re-do reviews. They copy and paste reviews, and maybe add a few lines in the final comments. If you read the review for DiRT from IGN, they say that it runs better on the PS3, yet for what ever reason gave it the exact same score.

FEAR and Orange Box are both games that were built for PC and ported to console. X360 is much like a PC, so I'm assuming it’s easier to port to. Dev's have had more time to work with the X360 since its been out longer, but as time goes on and devs get more and more familiar with the PS3 (porting to and from) we all should hopefully see games that perform the same on either platform. exp newer games like COD4 and UT3 (although UT3 isn't out for X360, people already say it runs great for PS3, so I would think it would run great on X360 as well).
 
Furystrike said:
I agree, there are games that run equal on both platforms. However, mutli-platform titles come to the PS3 with some (regularity, consistency, frequency...whatever you want to say. you get the point).

COD3, FEAR, and now the Orange box are examples. At the moment, I don't think there is a multiplatform title on IGN that scores higher on the PS3 than the 360.

your move
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I don't think it scored higher (too lazy to check), but if I remember right, Oblivion supposedly runs better on the PS3. Of course I got for the 360 long before the PS3 port, but I think I read that it actually was slightly better on the PS3.

I agree with you about ports in general though. They generally run better on the 360. The main reason I usually get the 360 version of a game is the controller though. I just like it much better than the SixAxis.

In any event, both are great systems and are capable of running great games when a developer really puts forth the effort.
 
Rocketpig said:
I think you're confusing smart business with laziness.
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Smart business is protecting the value of your brand. I said I didn't expect them to handle the PS3 code themselves. I'm fully aware they're tied at the waist to MS and Direct X development. They don't want to expend the effort of learning such a foreign platform. But there is a fundamental problem when a successful studio allows its premier product and fans to suffer an inferior port due to incompetence or lack of resources.

I'd never buy OB for a console in the first place, but it was not a good decision to hand off to EA. Consumers shouldn't settle for crap like that. If a port is not going to make enough money to justify, don't slack off with the quality just to cash in. And now I think sales will be somewhat of a self fulfilling prophesy. Yeah the PS3 version wasn't going to sell a million, but word of mouth will kill PS3 OB.

The way Newell attacked the PS3 was tactless and not in Valve's best interests. He is intelligent, but laziness is not a mutually exclusive trait. He should take some of his money and hire a personal trainer before he dies of heart disease.
 
Baker said:
If all you are comparing your information to is IGN, you have a problem.
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we have to use something as a benchmark to compare which versions are better. suggestions? maybe i'm putting to much faith in IGN


FEAR and Orange Box are both games that were built for PC and ported to console. X360 is much like a PC, so I'm assuming it’s easier to port to. Dev's have had more time to work with the X360 since its been out longer, but as time goes on and devs get more and more familiar with the PS3 (porting to and from) we all should hopefully see games that perform the same on either platform.
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agreed, devs will hopefully get things up to speed on learn to program efficiently on the PS3. But as Orange Box demonstrates, we're not there yet. In the end, I think the important thing to take away is that, regardless of what the underlying cause is, poor PS3 ports are in fact a very real issue and could quite likely be here to stay for a significant amount of time.
 
The_Law said:
I don't think it scored higher (too lazy to check), but if I remember right, Oblivion supposedly runs better on the PS3.
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I remember reading that too. It has less 'stuttering'. It did end up with a lower score on IGN however, most likely due to its later release date (I think they even mention that it has less issues due to more time being able to work with the game).

In any event, both are great systems and are capable of running great games when a developer really puts forth the effort.
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agreed. The question is: will we ever reach a point where every developer has put forth the effort to learn the intricacies of the PS3? Will we forever have a significant number of quality titles being sloppily ported over?
 
Stereophile said:
Smart business is protecting the value of your brand. I said I didn't expect them to handle the PS3 code themselves. I'm fully aware they're tied at the waist to MS and Direct X development. They don't want to expend the effort of learning such a foreign platform. But there is a fundamental problem when a successful studio allows its premier product and fans to suffer an inferior port due to incompetence or lack of resources.

I'd never buy OB for a console in the first place, but it was not a good decision to hand off to EA. Consumers shouldn't settle for crap like that. If a port is not going to make enough money to justify, don't slack off with the quality just to cash in. And now I think sales will be somewhat of a self fulfilling prophesy. Yeah the PS3 version wasn't going to sell a million, but word of mouth will kill PS3 OB.

The way Newell attacked the PS3 was tactless and not in Valve's best interests. He is intelligent, but laziness is not a mutually exclusive trait. He should take some of his money and hire a personal trainer before he dies of heart disease.
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Newell is a co-founder of a very successful PC development and now also a publishing house. That exempts him from the "lazy" catagory. Sorry. There are lots of intelligent people in the world. Doing something with that makes you not lazy. If he was lazy, he'd be another overweight WoW player.

Handing off the porting to EA is definitely a debatable move. We would have to know how much EA charged for it before we could say if it was a smart business move or not. The PS3 is far from the premier platform for that game. Sales were going to be the lowest of the 3 platforms. Overall, it was a smart move for them to hand it off to someone else. None of that has anything to do with laziness. "Lazy developers" is an ill concieved argument that has become cliché.
 
Defective said:
That exempts him from the "lazy"
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Anyone that fat without a glandular disease is lazy. He can sit in front of a screen for 10 hours but walking around the block or saying no to a third helping of pie is that difficult ? His caloric intake greatly exceeds his expenditures.

Defective said:
"Lazy developers" is an ill concieved argument that has become cliché.
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It's a good catch all phrase to describe orange box on PS3. It costs $60. The customer gets no discount for the cut rate development. There is no defense for shitty ports. All they managed to do was piss off PS3 owners. Their substandard port and the subsequent fallout brought them nothing but heartache. They still lost money and public opinion in the process. Do it right or don't bother at all.
 
Stereophile said:
Anyone that fat without a glandular disease is lazy. He can sit in front of a screen for 10 hours but walking around the block or saying no to a third helping of pie is that difficult ? His caloric intake greatly exceeds his expenditures.
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I'm sorry, but poor physical shape != laziness. Let me follow your logic here. Gabe Newell is fat so he must make lazy business decisions? Even if he does sit in front of a screen for 10 hours, what do you think he's doing, pounding his pud? You do know that he co-heads a company that produces software, right? The kind of software where people sit in front of computers and type for several hours. Maybe I'm wrong and I have been warped into an alternate reality where successful programming is done on a treadmill but no one sent me the memo. Seriously, this is possibly the least intelligent post you have ever made. You have introduced completely irrellevant facts. Maybe you are on to something though! Maybe we should put the presidents and CEOs of all the game companies on scales and we'll purchase all our games based on which one has the best Body Mass Index!


Stereophile said:
It's a good catch all phrase to describe orange box on PS3. It costs $60. The customer gets no discount for the cut rate development. There is no defense for shitty ports. All they managed to do was piss off PS3 owners. Their substandard port and the subsequent fallout brought them nothing but heartache. They still lost money and public opinion in the process. Do it right or don't bother at all.
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How do you know that they lost money? Have you been sneaking into Valve's corporate headquarters and staring at their balance sheets while on your way to studying Gabe's personal habits? How did they really lose public opinion? Their primary audience is PC and the game was well recieved. Even several game sites are saying that if you don't have a PC or a 360, then it is still worth it to pick it up for the PS3. It has been noted that many of the problems that IGN initially ran into had been overcome. It still doesn't run as smooth at the 360, but it is only slightly perceptively different.
 
Stereophile said:
Anyone that fat without a glandular disease is lazy. He can sit in front of a screen for 10 hours but walking around the block or saying no to a third helping of pie is that difficult ? His caloric intake greatly exceeds his expenditures.
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as a med student, i find the ignorance in that statement is disgusting.
 
Defective said:
I'm sorry, but poor physical shape != laziness. Let me follow your logic here. Gabe Newell is fat so he must make lazy business decisions?
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I'm sorry but scientific evidence suggests otherwise. Obese people don't exercise. They hardly move at all. What can be more important than ones own health ? That's a rhetorical question. Certainly there are many fat business people. I never suggested a connection between his slothfulness and the bad port. It was you that drew that inference. The port turned out crappy because they didn't care about the PS3.

Defective said:
How do you know that they lost money?
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Isn't the justification of an EA slop chop port because it won't sell sufficient quantities to make a profit ? They put forth minimal effort for minimal investment. I expect it to sell even less than predicted due to the controversy.

Defective said:
Even several game sites are saying that if you don't have a PC or a 360, then it is still worth it to pick it up for the PS3. It has been noted that many of the problems that IGN initially ran into had been overcome. It still doesn't run as smooth at the 360, but it is only slightly perceptively different.
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Can there be that many people browsing game sites without a PC capable of running OB ?
Most of PS3 OB runs fine. But HL2 EP2 runs like shit. It's a developer problem.
 
Stereophile said:
I'm sorry but scientific evidence suggests otherwise. Obese people don't exercise. They hardly move at all. What can be more important than ones own health ? That's a rhetorical question. Certainly there are many fat business people. I never suggested a connection between his slothfulness and the bad port. It was you that drew that inference. The port turned out crappy because they didn't care about the PS3.
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Why the hell did you bring it up then? I don't care about what Gabe does in his personal life. In his professional life, which is the only part of his life that any of us care about, he clearly isn't lazy. You said the developer was lazy. Now you are saying you "never suggested a connnection between his slothfulness and the bad port."

So, let me get this straight. You admit that Gabe's weight is completely irrelevant to the discussion of Valve being a "lazy developer" because you "never suggested a connection between his slothfulness and the bad port", yet you are the one that associated laziness with his weight and and the original statement that 4saken made that you came to the defense of was that Valve was lazy. You have taken any credibility you had and thrown it out the window.

Lets take some entertaining quotes.

Stereophile said:
Gabe is lazy. I don't blame Valve for not wanting to do the PS3 version themselves. They are a PC developer. However, there is no reason they couldn't hire the right people to perform a competent job. Do it right or not at all.
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Gabe is lazy? Ok, so this is meant as just a non-sequitur remark then? We are supposed to read this as: "Gabe is lazy." (End Statement - Disclamier, not meant to be part of this actual conversation. Just me bashing fat people) (Begin relevant discussion now) "I don't blame Valve . . ."

Stereophile said:
The way Newell attacked the PS3 was tactless and not in Valve's best interests. He is intelligent, but laziness is not a mutually exclusive trait. He should take some of his money and hire a personal trainer before he dies of heart disease.
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Ok, his laziness is brought up why? Oh, I get it, we are just supposed to be looking at his physical condition again, not relating it to the developer being lazy at all. I get the game you are playing now. You just hate fat people.

Stereophile said:
Anyone that fat without a glandular disease is lazy. He can sit in front of a screen for 10 hours but walking around the block or saying no to a third helping of pie is that difficult ? His caloric intake greatly exceeds his expenditures.
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No reference to Orange Box or porting or even Valve in this paragraph.

Now, the crescendo (drumroll please):

Stereophile said:
I never suggested a connection between his slothfulness and the bad port. It was you that drew that inference.
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The crowd goes wild! Yay! The perfect logic trail.

I'm sorry, I obviously assumed that since we were talking about a gaming topic, that your statement about him being lazy was meant to be relevant to the conversation. Next time I'll just assume that whatever you say is not meant to be connected to anything.
 
lol, PS3 fanboys have resorted to calling Newell fat??

I guess that's the only fodder they can muster up these days
 
Dallows said:
Defective seems to love Valve... I dunno.
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See, that's not even the point.

I am more than happy to say that Valve handing Orange Box to EA meant that the port was going to be lack luster.

Valve is by no means perfect. They make some games that I enjoy playing. So does Bioware, Capcom, Konami, Polyphony, the ICO team (can't remember the name of that dev off the top of my head), Nintendo, Bungie, etc.

That doesn't mean that I think they always make the best decisions. Seriously though, the "lazy developer" is just a blind potshot at whatever company produces some game that doesn't perform the best on whatever console. The developer could have been rushed, it could be a cost issue, we don't know. Take Mass Effect for example. That game has bugs. It should have been delayed a few months but it would have missed the holiday season. Now, are you going to look at the bugs and just call Bioware lazy or are you even going to consider any of the other factors?
 
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