28nm Video Card Pricing, The BUCK stops here

SonDa5

SonDa5

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Looking at 28nm video cards and comparing them to cards to prior years the pricing has completely gotten out of hand.

My theories on the high costs of 28nm cards.

1. Corporate Greed. Video cards are no longer affordable by many so AMD/NDVIDIA have turned the technology into a luxury high priced affair in order to make maximum profits.

2. Decrease in buyers due to weakened global economy over the last 5 years or so.

3. Limited production due to fear of NVIDIA/AMD not being able to sell the new cards,

4. High stock of older video cards. I don't think people are buying video cards like they used to so in order for AMD/NVIDIA to make a buck they have to increase prices.

5. Console gaming machines much better value.

6. Repressed Social fear of 2012 Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.


I'm sure many of you have your own theories on the ridiculous pricing of 28nm video cards.



I'm currently enjoying a 40nm MSI TF3 PE/OC GTX 560ti 448 that I bought for around $240. I can't see myself spending anything over $300 for a new 28nm video card but if I did it would have to substantially beat the performance of a GTX 560 ti 448. )(50% improvement at leAST)
 
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i blame Apple.

amd and nvidia figured if millions of people can spend $600-$800 dollars on new ipads and iphones why not charge more on video cards.
 
Yeah, and how much is Nvidia/AMD spending in R&D to develop these cards? Give me a goddamn break. Of course they are more expensive then the prior generation.
 
Actually my speculation in the other thread is the issue could possibly start right at the foundry level. You'll notice for instance despite the prices (that were above MSRP even) the 7950 and 7970 did have some stock problems. Not sure if they still do?

This generation it seems both Nvidia and AMD are relying on TSCM's 28nm capacity whereas before their was competition from UMC. It doesn't seem like AMD is planning on utilizing Globalfoundries either (at least anytime soon) despite some links there.

TSMC 28nm is also burdened by the rising mobile ARM market which is now also transitioning to 28nm. I think I saw an article before mentioning that Qualcomm actually has spoken for the largest share of TSMC's 28nm capacity, not AMD or Nvidia.
 
limitedaccess said:
Actually my speculation in the other thread is the issue could possibly start right at the foundry level. You'll notice for instance despite the prices (that were above MSRP even) the 7950 and 7970 did have some stock problems. Not sure if they still do?

This generation it seems both Nvidia and AMD are relying on TSCM's 28nm capacity whereas before their was competition from UMC. It doesn't seem like AMD is planning on utilizing Globalfoundries either (at least anytime soon) despite some links there.

TSMC 28nm is also burdened by the rising mobile ARM market which is now also transitioning to 28nm. I think I saw an article before mentioning that Qualcomm actually has spoken for the largest share of TSMC's 28nm capacity, not AMD or Nvidia.
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I think the TSMC excuse is getting old. Last year it was old.

Somebody please build a better production plant to build more gpus. If poor production was really the problem I'm certain the problem would quickly be resolved. If you know where the gold is at you get proper tools to get to it ASAP. This TSMC excuse is bogus IMO.
 
SonDa5 said:
I think the TSMC excuse is getting old. Last year it was old.

Somebody please build a better production plant to build more gpus. If poor production was really the problem I'm certain the problem would quickly be resolved. If you know where the gold is at you get proper tools to get to it ASAP. This TSMC excuse is bogus IMO.
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The issue is fabs are relatively expensive and length projects. Also designs are not exactly interchangeable, for instance you can't really have Globalfoundries and TSMC make identical Tahiti chips. So switching suppliers isn't that fluid for this type of industry. Going forward perhaps UMC (28nm now also online I believe) and GlobalFoundries may also be considered as alternatives to TSMC. You also have I think possible a lot of things that possibly did not go according to plan.

I don't think either AMD or Nvidia likely predicated how much stronger a player ARM manufactures would be whereas before both of them would have been the largest customers and given priority.

Also I think there were rumors of AMD switching over to GlobalFoundries? For whatever reasons that didn't materialize for this generation (I assume too late in the design process).

Even Intel, which I think people would argue is gold standard and does it all in house, isn't flawless.
 
limitedaccess said:
Even Intel, which I think people would argue is gold standard and does it all in house, isn't flawless.
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Not flawless but they offer a fantastic array of cpus that are relatively affordable, inviting and satisfying to many.
 
SonDa5 said:
I think the TSMC excuse is getting old. Last year it was old.

Somebody please build a better production plant to build more gpus. If poor production was really the problem I'm certain the problem would quickly be resolved. If you know where the gold is at you get proper tools to get to it ASAP. This TSMC excuse is bogus IMO.
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It is not really a "TSMC Excuse", it is more of a "Smaller fabrication nodes are going to become more complicated AND expensive, so deal with it" excuse.
 
JMccovery said:
It is not really a "TSMC Excuse", it is more of a "Smaller fabrication nodes are going to become more complicated AND expensive, so deal with it" excuse.
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When AMD/NVIDIA report to stock owners that a 3rd party is responsible for a money making performance problem it is an excuse.

AMD/NVIDIA need to be responsible and quit blaming others for problems that ultimately they are responsible for fixing. TSMC has been being blamed for these type of problems for it seems like 2 years now. This blame game has got to end.
 
SonDa5 said:
I think the TSMC excuse is getting old. Last year it was old.
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You're a funny person.

If poor production was really the problem I'm certain the problem would quickly be resolved. If you know where the gold is at you get proper tools to get to it ASAP. This TSMC excuse is bogus IMO.
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And I'm certain that you have no clue about the fabrication industry ;)
 
FaRKle0079 said:
And I'm certain that you have no clue about the fabrication industry ;)
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I just know about what I have been reading online for the last 2 years or so. TSMC has had problems and if they are unable to meet the demands of their customers then the customers need to find a solution to help get their products out.

Are you defending the high prices? Do you think the prices are reasonable for the performance?
 
SonDa5 said:
I just know about what I have been reading online for the last 2 years or so. TSMC has had problems and if they are unable to meet the demands of their customers then the customers need to find a solution to help get their products out.

Are you defending the high prices? Do you think the prices are reasonable for the performance?
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It would be foolish to think TSMC's problems are strictly caused by TSMC and fixed by TSMC. Honda sure had a shortage of new vehicles produced last year, but was it Honda's fault that their suppliers got wiped out by the tsunami?

As for prices, the market will do what the market will do.
 
FaRKle0079 said:
It would be foolish to think TSMC's problems are strictly caused by TSMC and fixed by TSMC.
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I'm not blaming TSMC. They seem to be swamped with work. I blame AMD/NVIDIA for not seeking out a solution that doesn't involve TSMC.

I don't think there is a big demand for these cards. Seems to be a limited produced item that AMD/NVIDIA and their retailers are willing to wait on, of course I don't think AMD/NVIDIA will publicly admit this to their stock market customers so IMO they blame TSMC and IMO this is a cop out.

This market is saturated with non 28mm video cards from the last few years.
 
pc gaming seems to have transformed from a normal good to a luxury good (that is rather than high production and competing for prices, capped high prices and competing for production) and I would mainly blame this on the economy leading many people (myself included) more toward console gaming simply because it's more affordable. Those who remain and most likely enthusiasts and more loyal consumers, and therefore more willing to pay higher premiums for the luxury of having a high end pc. Since there is no longer enough demand for pure competition to bring in enough revenue to fund r&d as well as make a little profit, they have had to turn to an alternate production strategies. Complain about corporate greed and such all you want, but the fact of the matter is they are in the game to make money and the game is changing so the companies are having to adapt to survive.
 
SonDa5 said:
Are you defending the high prices? Do you think the prices are reasonable for the performance?
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$550 for a high end GPU is nothing new. Man you guys have short memories. 5 short years ago the 8800 Ultra had a $700+ price tag and the 8800GTX was $500+. The 6800 Ultra launched at $500 in 2004. Hell, the Geforce 2 Ultra launched at $400+ back in 2000.

So yes. Considering how much power there is in the high end, how much R&D goes into these chips, inflation, and factoring in the laws of supply & demand (which you seem to know nothing about), $550 seems pretty damn decent. I swear, ever since the AMD HD4000 series came out at rock bottom prices, everyone seems to think it was the new norm and that they are somehow "entitled" to these cheap high performing GPU's. Guess what? The HD4000 series was a fluke, its pricing was such to stop the bleeding caused by the underperforming 2000 and 3000 series and the huge debt from the ATI buyout. AMD took a gamble: they provided a enough chips at a low enough price and high enough performance level to continue to remain competitive and keep income flowing. It worked.

If you can't afford it, stop bitching. Save up or buy something in your price range. This rant of yours is like someone bitching about all the Mercedes Benz's out there when they drive a lowly Honda that still gets the job done.
 
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I think fabrication was an issue initially, but there isn't a supply problem now.

Right now the 'issue' is AMD not having any competition and charging a little more for a better product (the 580 is just a refresh of the 480, it's around 2 years old now). Hopefully when Nvidia pls their finger out and we get a nice healthy price war*.

*I have my doubts and wouldn't be surprised if they get done for price fixing.
 
SonDa5 said:
I just know about what I have been reading online for the last 2 years or so. TSMC has had problems and if they are unable to meet the demands of their customers then the customers need to find a solution to help get their products out.
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Hold the presses. Someone should tell the department of education and company HR departments that higher education, and practical job experience are no longer needed to be an engineer. The person just need to read online articles and forum posts to become an engineering expert.
 
Pantalaimon said:
Hold the presses. Someone should tell the department of education and company HR departments that higher education, and practical job experience are no longer needed to be an engineer. The person just need to read online articles and forum posts to become an engineering expert.
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LMAO. If that were the case my 2 years at a technical college would put me on par with the likes of Niels Bohr or Robert Oppenheimer...
 
Don't underestimate the power of the dollar/currencies losing value as well. The new 'high price' may actually be the 'new mid range price'. When this shit happens it takes way too long for the consumer to match it since our salaraies do not generally match the rate of the decline.
 
The new cards have no competition. Amd stopped production on their 6 series cards and when they are gone you will have to pay the new price for the new cards. Unfortunitly nvidia hasn't done shit in the value department so I dont imagine things will change when Kepler drops.
 
If i was in charge of selling video cards. I would sell them for as much as possible. That way I could get raises and bonuses and my stockholders would be happy.

If you sell X amount of video cards for X amount of money your bonus will be 1,000,000 this year.

Who wants to sign up for this job?
 
The OP has incredibly short memory and doesn't understand economics very well.

Videocards are CHEAPER than ever now.

If the 680 GTX launches at $550 it will be $50 more than the GF3 Ti 500 at lauch ($500).

That's a 10% price increase in 11 years. If you compare this to inflation the cost of high end cards has come down. $500 in 2001 has about the same purchasing power as $640 now.

But hell, the number is larger so they must be greedy corporate overlords.
 
demingo said:
The OP has incredibly short memory and doesn't understand economics very well.

Videocards are CHEAPER than ever now.

If the 680 GTX launches at $550 it will be $50 more than the GF3 Ti 500 at lauch ($500).

That's a 10% price increase in 11 years. If you compare this to inflation the cost of high end cards has come down. $500 in 2001 has about the same purchasing power as $640 now.

But hell, the number is larger so they must be greedy corporate overlords.
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Last years high end AMD card prices have become this years mid range AMD card prices.

Even [H]OCP stated in the HD7950 review that the only reason the HD7950 didn't get a gold recommendation was because the price was about $50 over.


I don't understands why people defend the pricing but I have a few ideas.

Ideas for defending pricing.

1. You work in this industry and make a living off of the profits.
2. You have stock in one of these companies and don't want to lose money.
3. You know somebody who works in one of these companies and you don't want to hurt their financial status.



I think the new 28nm cards are over priced and there is plenty of last years cards available in retail stores.


The law of supply and demand also works for consumers if they make it work for them. Don't buy these 28nm cards at current high prices and guaranteed the price is going to come down sooner than later.
 
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demingo said:
But hell, the number is larger so they must be greedy corporate overlords.
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"The corporation cares"

Ahh yes, corporations are really charities in disguise with no aims of profit.

ROTFL... Even charities aim for non-profit, well, profit... Sigh...

Points for making me laugh though. :)
 
SonDa5 said:
Last years high end AMD card prices have become this years mid range AMD card prices.

Even [H]OCP stated in the HD7950 review that the only reason the HD7950 didn't get a gold recommendation was because the price was about $50 over.


I don't understands why people defend the pricing but I have a few ideas.

Ideas for defending pricing.

1. You work in this industry and make a living off of the profits.
2. You have stock in one of these companies and don't want to lose money.
3. You know somebody who works in one of these companies and you don't want to hurt their financial status.



I think the new 28nm cards are over priced and there is plenty of last years cards available in retail stores.


The law of supply and demand also works for consumers if they make it work for them. Don't buy thess cards at current high prices and guaranteed the price is going to come down sooner than later.
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When purchasing a high end luxury item I expect to pay a higher price. I don't expect someone to sell me a Ferrari for the price of a Toyota. Historicly speaking the prices on these cards are lower than in the past. Also, please don't assume your financial situation applies to everyone. $500 for a videocard every couple years simply isn't a big deal to everyone.
 
demingo said:
$500 for a videocard every couple years simply isn't a big deal to everyone.
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I'd do that if the performance was truly worth the costs but from what I have seen so far 28nm high end cards are not worth the high price tag. Maybe Kepler will change the current situation on this matter.

I still see your point. If you can afford to buy the luxury item and have the cash then I'm sure you will always have that option available. :D


However for most of the other regular folk like myself who have a budget and want to upgrade to an affordable 28nm video card with a generous performance improvement nothing is being presented right now.

$299.99 is my budget and right now I don't see a 28nm card that I am willing to leave my GTX 560 ti 448 for. The price/peformance/value just isn't there.
 
Do we know anything concrete about Nvidia pricing yet, or is this just another SonDa5 anti-AMD post in disguise?

Another great anti AMD thread from SonDa5, for me to poop on!
 
SonDa5 said:
Looking at 28nm video cards and comparing them to cards to prior years the pricing has completely gotten out of hand.

My theories on the high costs of 28nm cards.
Click to expand...
I have some comments for your 'theories'.
1. Corporate Greed. Video cards are no longer affordable by many so AMD/NDVIDIA have turned the technology into a luxury high priced affair in order to make maximum profits.
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I don't believe that out of the blue that either Nvidia or AMD are going to change their pricing models to increase profit. The the GPU market is very competitive, meaning very little profit per device sold. If they work together to keep prices high, that's called 'price fixing' and they would wind up in court.
2. Decrease in buyers due to weakened global economy over the last 5 years or so.
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The economy is picking up, not going down (compared over the past 5 years) Many people who buy at launch have money anyways and would buy regardless of the economy because they have good jobs.
3. Limited production due to fear of NVIDIA/AMD not being able to sell the new cards,
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See previous comment.
4. High stock of older video cards. I don't think people are buying video cards like they used to so in order for AMD/NVIDIA to make a buck they have to increase prices.
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That's the exact opposite of how the economy works. Unless you think the GPU market works the exact opposite of the market for everything else in the entire world.

Higher Demand & Low Supply = Higher Prices.
Lower Demand & High Supplies = Low Prices.
5. Console gaming machines much better value.
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Not unique to 28nm
6. Repressed Social fear of 2012 Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.
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:D
I'm currently enjoying a 40nm GTX 560ti 448 that I got a great deal on and I pledge to not spend any more money on over priced video cards.
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That's a good card so you should be able to get a lot of enjoyment from it.
I think by not buying into current over priced 28nm video cards my $money$ speak powerfully to AMD/NVIDIA.<snip>If you already have a video card that can play the games you like to play at reasonable frame rates please don't buy a 28nm video card. Stop supporting NVIDIA/AMD with your hard earned $money$.
There are many more affordable options for older video cards than buying a new 28nm video card.
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But you suggested in #4 that having a lot of stock was bad for us, so if we don't buy aren't we slitting our own throat?
 
DrRetina said:
Do we know anything concrete about Nvidia pricing yet
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Just rumors of an NVIDIA naming change on video cards in order to try to sell the new GK104 card for $500+

Early rumors for the GK104 card on pricing was looking at $299.99 for it.

Not certain if these rumors are true. I hope the rumors are not true. I had my hopes up for GK104 card.
 
bigdogchris said:
But you suggested in #4 that having a lot of stock was bad for us, so if we don't buy aren't we slitting our own throat?
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High stock of 40nm and other prior year video cards. I'm supporting a stop buying 28nm card movement to send out a message to AMD/NVIDIA and retailers that the 28nm cards are over priced for the performance that they currently offer.
 
my 5850's fan died a month ago, I bought a 6950 as it's replacement... the card cost me $250... I got the news the 78xx's were coming and returned the card to where I bought it for credit, and hopefully this week or next i'll get a 7850, or pay a lil more and get the 7870... my performance will be the same or better, my temps will go down..

I don't understand all the complaints saying prices went up when your getting the same or better performance, with lower temps then the last generation at the same price. The only reason it appears the high end is now mid range price, is because last generation AMD had no high end, it's best cards could not compete and everyone who wanted higher end bought Nvidia.
 
Ruoh said:
Yeah, and how much is Nvidia/AMD spending in R&D to develop these cards? Give me a goddamn break. Of course they are more expensive then the prior generation.
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lol, so ever successive generation must be more expensive than the last? i smell fail.
 
the main problem in this topic seems to be its creater who clearly has some money problems.Video card price have been the same for years,its like this with all new tech,if u want new tech pay for it.I remember paying 500 $ for a 6800 with 128mb,and that was some years ago,prices are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME,the only thing that has changed is the topic creators income aparently.Noone is forcing u to buy what they sell,there are like he said older ,cheaper video cards that offer good performance. If u want prices to go down amd/nvidia needs to get them some Foxxcon slaves,that will drive prices down,stop crying that u want a 690GTX ultra mother quaker edition and u dont have the money,so u want nvidia/amd to sell to u for 100 $. Man up! prices are the same since 10 years.
 
SonDa5 said:
Looking at 28nm video cards and comparing them to cards to prior years the pricing has completely gotten out of hand.

My theories on the high costs of 28nm cards.

1. Corporate Greed. Video cards are no longer affordable by many so AMD/NDVIDIA have turned the technology into a luxury high priced affair in order to make maximum profits.

2. Decrease in buyers due to weakened global economy over the last 5 years or so.

3. Limited production due to fear of NVIDIA/AMD not being able to sell the new cards,

4. High stock of older video cards. I don't think people are buying video cards like they used to so in order for AMD/NVIDIA to make a buck they have to increase prices.

5. Console gaming machines much better value.

6. Repressed Social fear of 2012 Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.


I'm sure many of you have your own theories on the ridiculous pricing of 28nm video cards.



I'm currently enjoying a 40nm GTX 560ti 448 that I got a great deal on and I pledge to not spend any more money on over priced video cards.

I think by not buying into current over priced 28nm video cards my $money$ speak powerfully to AMD/NVIDIA.

Tonight I humbly and intelligently request that all of you stop supporting the over priced video card industry which IMO has hurt the PC gaming community more than anything.


If you already have a video card that can play the games you like to play at reasonable frame rates please don't buy a 28nm video card. Stop supporting NVIDIA/AMD with your hard earned $money$.
There are many more affordable options for older video cards than buying a new 28nm video card.
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lol all wrong.. not once did you even bother to mention the one company that has sole control of 28nm costs in your entire post and that is TSMC. they are what cause AMD/Nvidia to price their hardware where it is. every company has profit margin quota/market predictions they need to stick to to keep the stock holders happy. when TSMC raises costs AMD and Nvidia have to raise their costs to meet those expectations otherwise you have to deal with the stupid stock holders when they aren't met. sorry dude but try again. but i mean seriously look around you, go to a store every once in a while, all prices are going up. merchandise has to be moved and its not free to move. all that crap factors into the end cost the customer pays. think like a business owner, you'll start to understand what the heck is up with prices and you'll end up spending less time complaining about it.

and how is the higher priced cards hurting the gaming community? did you put any thought into that statement? there are over 50 different model cards that have been released in the last 4 years that can still play the most modern games coming out right now. the pricing isn't hurting crap, its the console age that is. i mean hell my SLI 8800GT's can still play BF3 at 1920x1200, all be it at medium settings but they can still play BF3. the market is saturated with cards. just because AMD/Nvidia label them as EOL cards doesn't just automatically make them completely worthless and unusable.

Florin22xxl said:
the main problem in this topic seems to be its creater who clearly has some money problems.Video card price have been the same for years,its like this with all new tech,if u want new tech pay for it.I remember paying 500 $ for a 6800 with 128mb,and that was some years ago,prices are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME,the only thing that has changed is the topic creators income aparently.Noone is forcing u to buy what they sell,there are like he said older ,cheaper video cards that offer good performance. If u want prices to go down amd/nvidia needs to get them some Foxxcon slaves,that will drive prices down,stop crying that u want a 690GTX ultra mother quaker edition and u dont have the money,so u want nvidia/amd to sell to u for 100 $. Man up! prices are the same since 10 years.
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agree, but i also think its the fact that people are mad that AMD finally caught onto Nvidia's pricing game and joined the party since now they can't get a card that competes with Nvidia's highest priced card for half the price like they have been able to for the past 3-4 years.
 
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I blame irrationally fearful green peace activists lobbying government officials to force industry to conform to stupid emission standards that do nothing but drive our costs up and stuff money into the pockets of greedy politicians and their pal gore.
 
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