2016 4k TVs suitable for movies and gaming?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by panfist, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    It's time to replace my old TV and I'm beginning to do some research in preparation for black friday.

    I'm looking for a 4k TV that could be good for both movies and gaming.

    For movies, it has to be able to play 24fps movies at the correct frame rate. I'm not 100% certain but does this mean I need a 120Hz display? Will any 120Hz display do? I thought some displays claim 120Hz but it only works with motion interpolation settings (and personally I think those always look awful).

    For gaming, i just care that the input lag isn't insanely high.

    I have no idea where to look for research. There is so much misinformation out there.
     
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  2. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    I'd say the Samsung KU6300. It does what you want except 24p and costs lesss than $450... but this is only a problem if you're crazy bothered by judder. Many people - myself included - have never even noticed it. Just an idea.
     
  3. Odellus

    Odellus [H]ard|Gawd

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    check rtings reviews. personally i just wouldn't bother with a tv for games regardless of input lag after using a D40u-D1. all of the <$1,500 ones that are good for movies (read: VA) have horrific amounts of motion blur and/or input lag. i was honestly just blown away by how bad it is, and it's not like the D40u has a particularly high response time, it's actually faster than most VA tvs rtings has reviewed, it's just the nature of the panel tech. input lag felt surprisingly good, though, coming from a monitor with about 4 ms of total lag. the other big problem i had with it was the viewing angle. if you sit close enough to actually be able to see all the detail 4K affords, a large amount of the outside of the screen becomes washed out, and viewing angles don't really get that much better in higher-end VAs. there was also some faint glow in the corners.

    right now, and this sucks, but i think that to have a really good experience with both movies and games, you need more than one display. you can get 4000:1+ contrast ratio, 4K, and a big screen but you're going to have lots of motion blur and/or lots of input lag. if you really just need one display to do everything i'd look at the Vizio P series. they don't do 4:4:4 but it's a non-issue for games and movies. it's mildly annoying with 1:1 text but that's about it. they've got the best black levels of any LED TV due to the very high number of individually dimmable LED zones which can dramatically boost its already high 5700:1 static contrast ratio and some of the lowest input lag numbers of any television ever. only downsides are that it can't get very bright (no proper HDR really) and you need to buy the 65" or 75" to get 1080p @ 120 Hz with the VA panel. the 50" is VA but can't do 1080p @ 120 Hz and for whatever reason the 55" is IPS so you definitely don't want that one.

    with all that being said, obviously the absolute best of the best for movies are LG's OLEDs. it just really sucks that they can't get the input lag numbers down to Samsung or Vizio's level, or implement some sort of blur reduction tech. if they could do both of those they would be BY FAR the absolute epitome of what the display world has to offer. also sucks that they don't offer smaller sizes for less money.

    anyway, look around rtings. if you click on the ? next to the different sections and then "learn more" they'll give you a big sortable list of all the TVs they've reviewed for that particular aspect. really useful. just my 2 cents.
     
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  4. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    It doesn't have to be perfect for gaming, I understand that 4k is new and there are going to be compromises.

    I game primarily on pc and the TV for gaming is more casual. I don't care if it's a VA panel with some blue, I just don't want 250ms input lag.

    Regarding judder, it does bother me.
     
  5. Q-BZ

    Q-BZ [H]ard as it Gets

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  6. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    Check the Samsung KS8000 or KS8500, they should meet your requirments of being good for gaming and movies. ;)
     
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  7. Odellus

    Odellus [H]ard|Gawd

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    well what's your budget?
     
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  8. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    1.5k
     
  9. Odellus

    Odellus [H]ard|Gawd

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    you should be able to find a 55EG9600 for $1,500 soon. it's around $1,800 right now. i personally wouldn't consider anything other than OLED at that price tier.
     
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  10. Treyshadow

    Treyshadow [H]ard|Gawd

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    At 1500 OLED should be on your watch list. That being said the Sony 800D and up are very good TVs. They have very fast processors internally and their implementation of Android TV is top notch.
     
  11. WiLLiSTER

    WiLLiSTER 2[H]4U

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    If you're not looking for a 65" the KS8000 should be within your budget. It's a fantastic set. Game mode will disable the processing effects so no 120hz (but 20ms input lag, some of the lowest you'll find on a TV) but it honestly doesn't bother me. 4K /HDR looks beautiful. The upscaling is pretty good. The black levels are impressive for an edge light screen. No judder issues with the right settings on. I like how it switches between game/movie video modes automatically. Otherwise I'd try and get an OLED like the others mentioned.
     
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  12. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    I'm looking for a TV that's *actually* 120hz, meaning it can accept a 120hz signal and display or natively. Not sure if such a set even exists.
     
  13. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    120Hz input does exist on some of the 4K tvs. Check rtings.com because each of their recent reviews mentions if the TV accepts 120Hz input or not. So far all of the tvs that do it only do 120Hz at 1080p. This is because of HDMI limitations.

    A word of warning. I don't know about their recent TVs, but Sony 4K TVs suffer from white line scanning artifacts when doing 120Hz. It's not an isolated case but a well documented issue with many of their TVs.

    At first I had an X850D and ultimately got rid of it for a KS8500 because of poor black color and the white line artifacts. 120Hz on that TV is also very blurry. Much blurrier than 60Hz 1080p, so it's not a scaling issue.

    The larger Vizio P series TVs do 120Hz, but they've been shown to have higher input lag while doing HDR gaming, but not to the point that it's unplayable. Just maybe not suitable if you're into online competitive play.

    Good luck with your purchase.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  14. WiLLiSTER

    WiLLiSTER 2[H]4U

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    I think your only options are Vizios M/P series (not sure about the others, they might do 120 natively) and Sony's models which about half do 120hz. Both have their limitations, read up on rtings to see what works for you, but I think the Vizio P series is the best rated of the bunch and competes with the KS series. I know none of Samsungs models do 120 natively.
     
  15. Huacanacha

    Huacanacha [H]Lite

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    With a 1.5k budget I would definitely recommend looking into the LG OLED's. They may not be 120Hz panels but they have almost zero pixel response time or motion blur. They do also handle 24p judder free apparently. OLED's are the best overall image quality (with infinite contrast thanks to perfect black levels) and motion handling by a mile. Check out the rtings review of the B6 model.

    The few drawbacks are that input lag is a little higher than the faster LCD displays (but still decent), and you have to watch temporary burn-in so likely not ideal for extended productivity use. Also HDR highlights don't get quite as bright as the top Samsung LCD's, but still pretty damn good.

    A quick check for the B6 shows $2.5k on Amazon but as low as $1.4 via sellers advertising on Google.

    Personally I plan to upgrade to next years or the following years OLED. Hopefully by then the few remaining limitations will be addressed.
     
  16. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    Isn't the highest HDMI spec rated for 18gbps 4k 120hz full color/hdr?

    I understand there's a lot technically wrong with that sentence, like what exactly is meant by HDMI spec or lack thereof, but I did successfully test 4k 120hz over HDMI to a Samsung monitor, I have no idea what it was doing for color sampling. Windows desktop and games looked fine.
     
  17. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Since you have KS8500 on hand can you try if does accept 1080p 120hz or 720p 120hz by creating a custom resolution? Rtings tests for 1080p 120hz but I think they only check if the option is available by default. However some 120hz 3DTV's in the past have accepted 120hz input if you made a custom resolution (sometimes some timing adjustments was needed).
     
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  18. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    Tried all of those and it's no go. The TV only does 60Hz input no matter what. This is with trying to force it through Nvidia drivers too.
     
  19. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    HDMI 2.0 allows for 4K at 60Hz, whereas the previous HDMI 1.4 was only good enough for 4K at 30Hz. To go higher than 60Hz at 4K you have to use displayport 1.3 or better.

    Check here: DisplayPort vs HDMI vs DVI vs VGA - AVADirect

    You can find plenty of info regarding HDMI bandwidth limitations online.

    EDIT: Unfortunately I never got the chance to play with a 4K monitor personally, so while you were able to get 4K at 120Hz, I don't have any personal experience to reply to that. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  20. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Well, thanks for trying. :)
     
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  21. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    Actually, I remembered it completely wrong. The monitor went up to 4k 60hz but almost every HDMI cable over 7ft that I tried did not work past 30hz. I ended up buying an HDMI over fiber optic cable that was way too expensive to get the distance I wanted (50ft).

    After I tested it I returned the monitor. . . I currently don't own any 4k displays which is my excuse for why I got the specs mixed up.

    I guess I don't need 4k 120hz native since apparently that's not really a thing.
     
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  22. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok, because for a moment there I thought you were the chosen one. XD

    4K 120Hz is coming man. I believe I read somewhere they're showing up next year?

    Personally I got the 4K TV cuz I knew I could always use it for watching 4K streaming, blu-rays, UHD blu-rays, etc. in the future as a... you know.. TV. lol.

    I didn't want to wait 3 years until large 4K 120Hz monitors matured and/or became mainstream.

    EDIT: Also, I wanted to mention to you that you could look into what's called a "redmere" cable which works nicely over long runs. Hope that helps. ;)
     
  23. panfist

    panfist Gawd

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    I tried literally six different redmere cables, three different types X two lengths, and of those six cables I bought two each.

    None worked.

    Then I brought my source (gtx 1070) to best buy and tried all twelve cables on two different displays.

    None worked.

    Also tried six different cables at best buy including monster "30 gbps" or something like that.

    Also didn't work.

    I couldn't try their super premium "chocolate" " cinnamon" or WTF because they are not in wall rated.

    To clarify when I say the combo of source, cable and display didn't work, I mean 4k 60hz. I never got past 30hz so I couldn't even test hdr/chroma.

    Short cables had no problems.

    Also the celerity cable worked fine at length 50'.
     
  24. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hmm... okay. it was just a suggestion and there's no way I could know what you've done before without you saying so. XD

    Well if you tried them then my bad. ;)
     
  25. killerbobjr

    killerbobjr Limp Gawd

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    I can vouch for both the Coboc 15' HDMI and the Monoprice 20' HDMI cables @ 4K 60Hz 4:4:4 and 1080P 120Hz into my Sony XBR-49X830C. I haven't tried anything longer, so I don't have any recommendations for sizes over these.
     
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  26. Wiz33

    Wiz33 Limp Gawd

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    What size and what's your viewing distance?

    Size depends on viewing distance. You'll want a 40"/43" at 2-3ft and a 49" at ~4ft, a 55" at ~5ft and a 65" for ~6ft otherwise you'll have problem reading text without going to a larger font.

    At 40"/43" Samsung KU7500 series, you'll want a curve version at close distance to minimize the edge distortion. At 49"/55" you'll want the Samsung KS8000/KS8500 and at 65" only the KU7000/KU7500 is under $1500.

    How much ambient light will be around. If you use it during daylight in a well lighted room, you don't want a OLED as it will be washed out by ambient lights.

    I use a 2015 40JU7500 for my computer desk and a 2016 65KS9500 for gaming in the living room

    As to HDMI cable. I have no problem using a 10ft going from PC with GTX-1080 to my 4K receiver then a 6ft from receiver to TV.

    The 10ft I used

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019HL8Q8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    The 6ft I used

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019EHU8G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  27. mls1995

    mls1995 2[H]4U

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    I have an 8500 in transit. See the slickdeals Samsung EPP thread. I paid $4 in amazon gift card money to a stranger so I could join the EPP and pay only $1450 for the 65" 8500 ($450 less than the Bestbuy or Amazon price). THe 65" 8000 is $1379 but you may have to wait like 6 weeks for it. The 8500 ships in 3 days for $70 more.
     
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  28. Wiz33

    Wiz33 Limp Gawd

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    Congrats. I think you'll be happy with it. I went and looked at both the 8500 and the 9500 beforehand and while the 9500 does look better at the same settings it's not $1000 better.
     
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  29. mls1995

    mls1995 2[H]4U

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    Yeah I saw the 8500 and 8000 in store and I very slightly preferred the 8500. But I would have bought either one at the FedEx employee EPP price. Awesome deals there. Big thread on slickdeals. My TV should arrive next week.
     
  30. Wiz33

    Wiz33 Limp Gawd

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    Now take the money you save and go get a UHD blu-ray player and the Pacific Rim or The Martians 4K disc. You won't truly appreciate the TV until you've seen that. Even Netflix 4K with HDR does not come close.
     
  31. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    You pushed me over the edge Wiz33 . I got this 4K TV a few months ago (Samsung KU6300) but have only used it for gaming. Tried Netflix but honestly I wasn't sure it even looked better than normal Blu-Ray.

    Ended up just getting the Philips player, The Martian and and a couple of other discs that looked good. Really excited to check out the quality.
     
  32. Odellus

    Odellus [H]ard|Gawd

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    neither of those movies are actually 4K D: check imdb technical specs for movies to see if they're actually 4K or not, a lot are being released that are just upscaled although they're still superior to the 1080p bluray because of extra features like HDR and Atmos audio tracks. you're looking to see what the master format is; like for example Pacific Rim's master format is 2K.
     
  33. mls1995

    mls1995 2[H]4U

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    Which UHD blu-ray player? Was leaning toward Xbox one S since I'm not going to use Dolby atoms. Or I was thinking of waiting for Oppo.
     
  34. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    I ended up getting the Philips BDP7501: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HBYUYSU/

    I did consider the Xbox One S, as it's not that much more expensive, but I don't have a ton of room on my desk (and I already have a PS4 Pro on pre-order) and the Philips just looked a little more compact.

    If you don't already have a console, then it seems the Xbox One S would be better money spent. Ideally I would have liked if Sony had a 4K player on the PS4 Pro, but that is another discussion.
     
  35. mls1995

    mls1995 2[H]4U

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    Any problems with it? I'm probably not going to play any games with an XBox. I'm a PC guy. Would only use the Xbox for UHD discs and apps. Price is definitely good on the Philips player.
     
  36. Wiz33

    Wiz33 Limp Gawd

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    The advantage of the new 4K is more than just resolution. It's about HDR, High luminance/contrast, deep black with details and vivid colors. I have disc that's true 4K transfer like Spider-man 2 and Revenant. While they are good and is noticably better than their Blu-ray counterpart. They did not blow me away like Pacific Rim and The Martians. One of the review actually said it pretty well The Martian 4K Blu-ray

    The Martain was photographed in 5K but finished on a 2K digital intermediate, which means it's been down-scaled from its source resolution in post production. What does that mean for its 4K release? It's been upscaled back to 4K, which is still a lower resolution than its native 5K source. What does that mean in the real world, where what's on the screen matters more than technical specs, letters, and numbers? It means The Martian looks fantastic as-is, even if it's 5K downgraded to 2K masquerading as 4K. Yet the results are truly spectacular, not perfect by any means but a noticeable upgrade from the 1080p Blu-ray:

    Same thing about Pacific Rim. Most review is now calling it a must buy/reference disc for 4K demo. from Pacific Rim (4K UHD Blu-ray Review)

    My jaw is permanently opened wide after witnessing this on in $K Ultra HD Blu-ray. One word…REFERENCE. This 4K Blu-ray presentation doesn’t disappoint. Not at all! You know that whole massive size and scope thing I have been raving about all review long? Well it’s rendered incredibly here. This thing just pops! It’s the magic of 4K Blu-ray, baby! The detail is infinite, rich and sharp throughout. Heck, I never noticed how Elba’s head was shaved so perfectly until now. From the welts and rivets in the Shatterdome doors and on the mech warriors’s suits to the individual stars, snowflakes and beads of water, this track is like a Kaiju, live and kicking! Fine textures are abound everywhere from the skin on the monsters to the wooly fabric employed on Elba’s jacket. After comparing this one to the 1080p Blu-ray there’s “clearly” just so much more to see in the 4K presentation. It’s night and day. The fine detail in the computer graphics and intricate set pieces are so lifelike you feel like you could just reach out and touch them. Of course there are a few soft sequences with all the CG, but so what. If you can’t appreciate this presentation, you might need your eyes checked.

    Pacific Rim is now my default demo disc, I heard that the X-Men: Apocalypse is also getting great reviews as a demo/reference disc. I probably would have picked it up if it wasn't such a horrible movie to start with (maybe when it goes on sale). Basically, there are so many other improvement on the new 4K TV that resolution is actually a secondary concern.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  37. Wiz33

    Wiz33 Limp Gawd

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    Get the One S if you're a gamer. If not, I would get the Samsung player for the Samsung TV. You'll be much less likely to encounter handshaking/compatibility issue with it,
     
  38. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    It doesn't arrive until Monday. I'll be sure to report back once I get a chance to try it.
     
  39. mls1995

    mls1995 2[H]4U

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    Please do. AVS forum thread is pretty positive. Going to be hard to spend $500 on an Oppo with no apps when $250 or $300 will get a Philips or Xbox.
     
  40. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    OK, so I got the Philips player and had some time to set it up. The menu is pretty bare-bones, but it's functional. Load times don't seem too bad, and for the most part the controls and everything made sense. The player is actually bigger than it looks in the picture, but still relatively small compared to the other options. And, luckily, fits right under the KU6300 on the corner of my desk with literally a millimeter to spare. The Samsung smart-remote was smart enough to recognize it and allow some level of control (power, basic directional pad and enter, but that's about it). Enough to select the movie to start and some simple stuff.

    So far I only tried Mad Max Fury (skipped around) and watched The Martian Extended Edition (full movie, first time watching). It did look great, yes, but I don't know, maybe I was expecting more. Well, The Martian was an awesome movie, for sure. And there were some nice shots. But the movie still looked kind of grainy (maybe intentional) and somewhat compressed. I mean, I've seen some 4K YouTube videos that looked much better, so I know the TV is legit. And I've played games at 4K, which look awesome. I'm guessing those two movies were mastered at 2K and converted to 4K or some other trickery. Not that they looked bad, but I don't think they were the full quality my Samsung UHD TV has to offer.

    The one thing that seemed questionable was the HDR support (on the TV, maybe not the player). The Samsung KU6300 is marketed as HDR (HDR10) but only with a 8-bit panel and without local dimming or the other stuff. On the Philips it said something like "High Dynamic Range Compatibility Mode" which leads me to believe something wasn't right. I checked the settings and the only HDR setting was Auto of Off and it started on Auto. So I'm not sure if it was working or not.

    In any case, I also have the normal Blu-Ray for the Martian so I put that in right after. Honestly, I didn't see a huge difference. Granted the standard Blu-Ray looked a little grainier and the colors were maybe slightly muted but it wasn't 4 times worse or anything. At times I wasn't even sure there was much of a difference. I guess this could be really good up-sampling on the Philips, but there was not a monster change. After pausing on some certain shots, I could see the normal edition looked a little softer but I had to look for it. I still want to check out the rest of the movies I bought, but I kind of feel like maybe Blu-Ray was already good enough for me. Or if you have a TV that can do proper HDR, it might be worth it. Or at really large sizes (my TV is only 40" but I was sitting pretty close).

    I don't want to discourage you guys. I really do love 4K for gaming, and there is an immediate and noticeable improvement there. And I did think, overall, that the UHD BD of The Martian was great and I enjoyed watching it. However, it was not 4 times as great and I probably would have been fine with the normal Blu-Ray.
     
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