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2.1 vs 5.1 for music
- Thread starter MoreDents
- Start date
I would say stereo (be it two gutless speakers and a sub, or two good speakers, or a setup with a phantom center, or headphones, or whatever else) is probably ideal for the majority of music you'll listen to
5.1 can be more versatile, if you have a well made 5.1 setup, although you won't use all of the channels all the time (for example, probably 85% of the time, my center/suround/sub amps aren't even on, because I'm just listening to music), if you have the space/cash, a good 5.1 setup will basically "include" a good stereo configuration, although if its JUST for music and nothing else, I wouldn't bother with the extra equipment when its likely to sit idle most of the time
5.1 can be more versatile, if you have a well made 5.1 setup, although you won't use all of the channels all the time (for example, probably 85% of the time, my center/suround/sub amps aren't even on, because I'm just listening to music), if you have the space/cash, a good 5.1 setup will basically "include" a good stereo configuration, although if its JUST for music and nothing else, I wouldn't bother with the extra equipment when its likely to sit idle most of the time
betweenthetines
n00b
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
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In my opinion, even music intentionally recorded in 5.1 (such as Meridian Lossless Packing or SACD 6-channel audio files) is never as enjoyable as its stereo counterpart.
SACD and DVD-A are still out there...somewhere.
Cool thanks for all the wisdom
Any links to specific speakers? I'm not quite familiar with "active monitors" and "bookself combo's"
he's suggesting either a pair of active (powered) stereo monitors, like KRK Rokit's or M-Audio AV40's, or buying a seperate amp (of whatever flavor) and passive (unpowered) speakers (like B&W 603's (for lack of a better example))
basically things not considered "computer speakers"
basically things not considered "computer speakers"
illgiveumorality
2[H]4U
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- Jan 25, 2005
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- 3,026
Have you tried it on a properly calibrated setup?
Harddriver
Weaksauce
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2006
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- 88
care to elaborate any here? for example why you're suggesting a $2200 pair of speakers, what amplifier you would pair with them, and so on
Harddriver
Weaksauce
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- Feb 13, 2006
- Messages
- 88
Well... sorry professor. I just thought that I'd present a good pair of speakers.
Amp: Ultra Desktop Headphone Amp
PSU: Desktop Power Supply
Amp Pair: Desktop Bi-Amp pair (120 v)
Cables: One Pr. Dimarzio M-Path 4.5' Interconnects; Two Pr. Dimarzio Speaker Cables (5' length) 2
Stands: One Pr. HeadRoom Speaker Stands
didn't mean to offend, just seemed sort of cryptic to have a link and nothing else
do you have these speakers? how do they work out? (just curious about them)
Harddriver
Weaksauce
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2006
- Messages
- 88
didn't mean to offend, just seemed sort of cryptic to have a link and nothing else
do you have these speakers? how do they work out? (just curious about them)
No I don't have them. I might when I move out of an apartment, also, my budget is tight right now. I have heard great things about them though. If you had all of those components, I could only imagine how amazing they would sound.
eh, systems at a solid 10x-15x that price range still can't approach a live performance (which is what I'd consider "amazing"), those are probably on the border between "yeah I'd buy this if I had the money" and "this is a waste of money", at least for me (and I wouldn't buy without an audition at that level), was just curious if you'd heard them and had an opinion on their SQ
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If you have a decent pair of speakers ($1000 price range) and a decent sub ($600 price range), should the speakers be run in full mode and not use the sub or run them in a 2.1 using the sub? I am asking this question in regards to music only. Thanks.
bobdole369
Gawd
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- Jun 27, 2004
- Messages
- 856
Seriously - price means nothing once you are past the consumer stuff. Custom built cabinets can be made sub-$100 and rival the $1000 speakers.
As far as music goes - it's generally accepted that the subs should stay <60hz - while you should have a driver at 60hz-2500hz and tweeters from roughly 2500hz up.
Having sub-bass in the main drivers is generally considered bad. Some folks even run 4 ways - sub, mid-bass, mid-range,highs.
Whatever it takes and whatever sounds good to your ears are the best method. If full-range on a single driver sounds good - so be it, but I've never heard one.
If you have a sub that is of the same general quality as your speakers, you should always use it. Few reasons:
1) The sub will go lower. You have to drop some serious coin to get speakers that go really low. Even good tower speakers are generally rolling off by 40Hz or higher. Isn't hard to get a sub that'll go to 16Hz in room though. So you get more low bass that way. Also please remember just because a speaker lists their FR at a given point, doesn't mean it is outputting that much sound. For example if a speaker says it is 39Hz-25kHz +-3dB, that means at 39Hz it is 6dB below its peak and, depending on the shape of its curve, may be about half the volume of average at that point.
2) More amplifier power available to the speakers. As you go down in frequency, you need more power. Ok well if you've got a 100 watt amp on your speakers, and feed them a full range signal, a lot of the amp's power can get taken up in doing low bass, perhaps lower than the speakers reproduce. Well, you offload that to the sub, there is more amp power available for higher frequencies. Let your 300-1000watt sub amp handle the bass.
3) Less distortion. This isn't a guarantee, but is a good bet. Again, you pump more power at low bass frequencies equaling more cone excursions and such. Well subs are made for that, they have very long throw motors (at least if they are good) so they can handle that with less THD. Your speakers, less so.
The idea with speakers/sub is the same one as tweeter/woofer: It is just hard to make a driver reproduce a real wide frequency range. Same is true at the low end as the high end. A purpose built speaker for low bass will just do better at it than one that trys to do low and mid bass.
Only time I'd look at going full range is if you have something like Dunlavy SC-Vs or the like that truly can go all the way down. However you'll notice that speakers like that pretty much DO have subs built in.
MoreDents: Go for 2.1 (or 2.0 if you like) for music. The advantage is that at whatever price point you deice you can spend, you get more quality for that. If you are dividing $500 between 5 speakers, that means you are getting $100 speakers. If you spend it on 2 speakers, you are getting $250 speakers.
Now if you want to listen to surround music, that's another thing. There are DVD-A, SACD, DTS CD, and hybrid discs out there that have 5.1 music. However, generally speaking, if that is your thing, you should drop a good bit of coin on a good system to appreciate it. No sense in buying high quality DVD-A recordings and listening to it on a cheapie setup. Better to get a higher quality 2.0/1 setup and just listening to CDs.
1) The sub will go lower. You have to drop some serious coin to get speakers that go really low. Even good tower speakers are generally rolling off by 40Hz or higher. Isn't hard to get a sub that'll go to 16Hz in room though. So you get more low bass that way. Also please remember just because a speaker lists their FR at a given point, doesn't mean it is outputting that much sound. For example if a speaker says it is 39Hz-25kHz +-3dB, that means at 39Hz it is 6dB below its peak and, depending on the shape of its curve, may be about half the volume of average at that point.
2) More amplifier power available to the speakers. As you go down in frequency, you need more power. Ok well if you've got a 100 watt amp on your speakers, and feed them a full range signal, a lot of the amp's power can get taken up in doing low bass, perhaps lower than the speakers reproduce. Well, you offload that to the sub, there is more amp power available for higher frequencies. Let your 300-1000watt sub amp handle the bass.
3) Less distortion. This isn't a guarantee, but is a good bet. Again, you pump more power at low bass frequencies equaling more cone excursions and such. Well subs are made for that, they have very long throw motors (at least if they are good) so they can handle that with less THD. Your speakers, less so.
The idea with speakers/sub is the same one as tweeter/woofer: It is just hard to make a driver reproduce a real wide frequency range. Same is true at the low end as the high end. A purpose built speaker for low bass will just do better at it than one that trys to do low and mid bass.
Only time I'd look at going full range is if you have something like Dunlavy SC-Vs or the like that truly can go all the way down. However you'll notice that speakers like that pretty much DO have subs built in.
MoreDents: Go for 2.1 (or 2.0 if you like) for music. The advantage is that at whatever price point you deice you can spend, you get more quality for that. If you are dividing $500 between 5 speakers, that means you are getting $100 speakers. If you spend it on 2 speakers, you are getting $250 speakers.
Now if you want to listen to surround music, that's another thing. There are DVD-A, SACD, DTS CD, and hybrid discs out there that have 5.1 music. However, generally speaking, if that is your thing, you should drop a good bit of coin on a good system to appreciate it. No sense in buying high quality DVD-A recordings and listening to it on a cheapie setup. Better to get a higher quality 2.0/1 setup and just listening to CDs.
I've got a pair of "tower speakers" (whatever you'd class them as, ~60" tall, 2x8" woofers, etc) which are just fine for music by themselves
the sub is another 10" driver, and with it on, the bass is just too much for me (for movies, its fine, but listening to music with the thing just kills me)
I agree with sycraft's overview, although just for me, it doesn't sound great, so basically:
do what sounds good, but understand some logic about why one scenario is generally suggested, although if you don't personally do that, don't feel bad)
the sub is another 10" driver, and with it on, the bass is just too much for me (for movies, its fine, but listening to music with the thing just kills me)
I agree with sycraft's overview, although just for me, it doesn't sound great, so basically:
do what sounds good, but understand some logic about why one scenario is generally suggested, although if you don't personally do that, don't feel bad)
betweenthetines
n00b
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 13
I probably could have stated it better. "Never" is a strong word and it really comes down to preference. For vocal-heavy music stereo just seems to provide a more (for lack of a better word) appropriate sound. However, the live recordings I've listened to in 5.1 make very good use of positional sound; it's pretty amazing to hear a crowd cheering from the rear speakers as a guitar solo plays in front! Granted, I haven't listened to a whole lot of music with more than two channels, but that's the gist of my impression.
I guess it really boils down to the way I like to listen to music: sitting where the two speakers' soundwaves hit my ears at the same time and being able to hear it as one fluid combination of sounds or home in on each channel as I choose, if that makes any sense. It's much harder for me to do that with 5 sound sources.
My favorite way the difference has been put (I think it was on this forum) was comparing the sound to either sitting in front of a performance or on stage with the band.
obobski:
Well there are three things to look at for using a setup with speakers like that.
1) Make sure that you have the sub properly crossing over with the speakers. You don't want it adding to their response, you want it smoothly crossing it. This meaning having a receiver or soundcard (or the sub itself if you have to and if it has a crossover) that handles it. Set the crossover point for somewhere in the 60-80Hz range probably.
2) Make sure the sub is properly balanced with the speakers. You'll need an SPL meter or a receiver with calibration software or an ECM8000 and RoomEQ Wizard or something. Make sure the sub isn't turned up too loud. You want it set at the same level as the speakers so when you hit the crossover, it is a smooth transition, not an increase in volume.
3) Look in to a better sub. The better your speakers are, in particular the lower they go, the better sub you need. If you've got little 2" computer speakers, well hell even a check 6" sub will add a ton of bass to them. If you've got some big ass theatre speakers, you need a bigass theatre sub to work with them.
I also have tower speakers. My old ones had 2 7" aluminium bass drivers and 1 7" kevlar midrange driver each. My new ones have 2 6.5" nomex mid/bass drivers each and despite the slightly smaller size still output near as low a bass as the old ones. Both go low and loud. However, they sound even better, and get more solid low sound, with the addition of a good 12" sub in a big chamber.
Now I'm not saying speakers like that NEED a sub, I'm just saying it can benefit them too. You just need to have a good sub, and then make sure it is properly calibrated. When you have that, the bass should just smoothly slide from speaker to sub. The result should be bass that goes lower, and that sounds better (tighter and such) because the speakers are less stressed.
Well there are three things to look at for using a setup with speakers like that.
1) Make sure that you have the sub properly crossing over with the speakers. You don't want it adding to their response, you want it smoothly crossing it. This meaning having a receiver or soundcard (or the sub itself if you have to and if it has a crossover) that handles it. Set the crossover point for somewhere in the 60-80Hz range probably.
2) Make sure the sub is properly balanced with the speakers. You'll need an SPL meter or a receiver with calibration software or an ECM8000 and RoomEQ Wizard or something. Make sure the sub isn't turned up too loud. You want it set at the same level as the speakers so when you hit the crossover, it is a smooth transition, not an increase in volume.
3) Look in to a better sub. The better your speakers are, in particular the lower they go, the better sub you need. If you've got little 2" computer speakers, well hell even a check 6" sub will add a ton of bass to them. If you've got some big ass theatre speakers, you need a bigass theatre sub to work with them.
I also have tower speakers. My old ones had 2 7" aluminium bass drivers and 1 7" kevlar midrange driver each. My new ones have 2 6.5" nomex mid/bass drivers each and despite the slightly smaller size still output near as low a bass as the old ones. Both go low and loud. However, they sound even better, and get more solid low sound, with the addition of a good 12" sub in a big chamber.
Now I'm not saying speakers like that NEED a sub, I'm just saying it can benefit them too. You just need to have a good sub, and then make sure it is properly calibrated. When you have that, the bass should just smoothly slide from speaker to sub. The result should be bass that goes lower, and that sounds better (tighter and such) because the speakers are less stressed.
of course, obviously, I'm inferior for having tastes different from the mainstream, and need your supreme advice to save me from myself
my point was that yes, your advice was sound, but that YMMV, for me, its simply overpowering, even when configured correctly, and I'd rather not come away from 2-3 hours of listening with a headache
...stereo music survived for many decades without subwoofers just fine, and in my opinion, thats all that is needed, if your speakers are suitable (because theres more to music than just having some "bump in the trunk")
No, I am NOT saying you are inferior for having different tastes. What I AM saying is that if a sub is giving you louder bass as opposed to tower speakers, you've got it configured wrong. There's no shame in that, nobody ever said it was "plug and play" or if they did, they were lying. However if you wish to use a sub with your system, to get deeper, fuller, better quality bass I'm saying it can be worthwhile even with good speakers.
If you don't want to bother, that's fine, but please don't spread misinformation saying that a sub will give "too much" bass with tower speakers. No, it won't. You configure it right and the level of bass won't change a single dB. Only things that will change are extension and distortion and the like.
So you do whatever you like, however I like to try and help people so I want to make sure that other forum denizens aren't mislead with bad info, and that if you want help to integrate your sub in to your setup, I'll be happy to help with that.
Also saying "It worked for many decades this way," isn't meaningful. Yes, things were a given way for a long time, doesn't mean that was the best way. A simple example would be cassette vs CD. For many decades, cassette tapes were the consumer priced audio storage. Now CDs are. Why? Because CDs are better in essentially every way than cassettes. Cassettes weren't used for so long because they were perfect, they were used for so long because that was all the technology could deliver to people at a reasonable price. Digital changed that.
So that speakers were done a given way for a long time doesn't matter to today. For a long time, using large drivers for low bass wasn't practical. Took too much trial and error. Wasn't until Thiele and Small developed a good system for reliably calculating how drivers would work in given enclosures that it became practical. Also, the digital revolution make it much more practical both because it is easier to handle the crossover int eh digital domain, and digital music has much superior bass to even good analogue formats. Add to that things like the development of switching amplifiers allowing for high power small amps, advances in materials science, and so on and so forth.
As such it is very feasible and desirable these days to use a sub to produce the lowest bass frequencies. It is cheaper, and easier, then trying to design a truly full range speaker system which is usually 4-way and huge (like the Dunlavy SC-Vs) and also expensive because of that.
It certianly isn't the only way to go. There's nothing wrong with running just small bookshelf speakers, you just sacrifice extension doing that. Maybe that is ok for you. However maybe you want better bass, in that case integrating a good sub in to your system is the way to go.
In fact, their are products sold just for that kind of purpose. Emotiva makes the USP-1, a stereo preamp. It is designed only for stereo music. It isn't a receiver or preprocessor (they do make those too). There's no surround sound, no Dolby decoding, no video, etc. You buy it to hook it to a CD player or record player or whatever.
However, you'll notice it has a subwoofer output, a crossover and supports 2.1 sound. Why? Because high end sound people were specifically interested in such a product. They wanted the ability to add a sub to their two channel system, but didn't want a receiver mucking with things, or to pay for receiver features they don't use.
So while it is not the One True Way(tm) for music, it is a good way to go and gives a good, balanced sound when done right. My sound is not overly bassy, does not give me a headache and so on. The sub is perfectly balanced with the speakers not only to my ears, but to a SPL meter and frequency analyzer as well.
If you don't want to bother, that's fine, but please don't spread misinformation saying that a sub will give "too much" bass with tower speakers. No, it won't. You configure it right and the level of bass won't change a single dB. Only things that will change are extension and distortion and the like.
So you do whatever you like, however I like to try and help people so I want to make sure that other forum denizens aren't mislead with bad info, and that if you want help to integrate your sub in to your setup, I'll be happy to help with that.
Also saying "It worked for many decades this way," isn't meaningful. Yes, things were a given way for a long time, doesn't mean that was the best way. A simple example would be cassette vs CD. For many decades, cassette tapes were the consumer priced audio storage. Now CDs are. Why? Because CDs are better in essentially every way than cassettes. Cassettes weren't used for so long because they were perfect, they were used for so long because that was all the technology could deliver to people at a reasonable price. Digital changed that.
So that speakers were done a given way for a long time doesn't matter to today. For a long time, using large drivers for low bass wasn't practical. Took too much trial and error. Wasn't until Thiele and Small developed a good system for reliably calculating how drivers would work in given enclosures that it became practical. Also, the digital revolution make it much more practical both because it is easier to handle the crossover int eh digital domain, and digital music has much superior bass to even good analogue formats. Add to that things like the development of switching amplifiers allowing for high power small amps, advances in materials science, and so on and so forth.
As such it is very feasible and desirable these days to use a sub to produce the lowest bass frequencies. It is cheaper, and easier, then trying to design a truly full range speaker system which is usually 4-way and huge (like the Dunlavy SC-Vs) and also expensive because of that.
It certianly isn't the only way to go. There's nothing wrong with running just small bookshelf speakers, you just sacrifice extension doing that. Maybe that is ok for you. However maybe you want better bass, in that case integrating a good sub in to your system is the way to go.
In fact, their are products sold just for that kind of purpose. Emotiva makes the USP-1, a stereo preamp. It is designed only for stereo music. It isn't a receiver or preprocessor (they do make those too). There's no surround sound, no Dolby decoding, no video, etc. You buy it to hook it to a CD player or record player or whatever.
However, you'll notice it has a subwoofer output, a crossover and supports 2.1 sound. Why? Because high end sound people were specifically interested in such a product. They wanted the ability to add a sub to their two channel system, but didn't want a receiver mucking with things, or to pay for receiver features they don't use.
So while it is not the One True Way(tm) for music, it is a good way to go and gives a good, balanced sound when done right. My sound is not overly bassy, does not give me a headache and so on. The sub is perfectly balanced with the speakers not only to my ears, but to a SPL meter and frequency analyzer as well.
yes, flame me, flame away, because I've already mentioned that IN MY OPINION (which obviously means I'm trying to spread lies and tell people its a fact, because obviously saying YMMV means nothing) it gives too much bass, even when configured properly for movies
but nope, flame away, just keep it up
nevermind that I actually agreed with your first post, and was simply suggesting that users have a sub, and test out what THEY prefer, giving my own experience as an example
OBVIOUSLY you have the only true answer and knowledge base, and OBVIOUSLY your equipment is equal to all other equipment, so there is no room for compromise or difference, thus only your advice and opinion is what matters, and I should just kill myself for trying to set up my equipment (paid for with my money) to suit my tastes, because it isn't to your satisfaction and as a result I'm "spreading lies"
as a result of "spreading misinformation" (which is acutally just a personal account of my own experiences) I'm obviously creating conditions where children WILL DIE and creating fire hazards for ALL USERS (with no question), if you read my personal experiences about my system, all life in the universe will obviously cease to exist, PERIOD
therefore we must all bow down and follow sycraft's advice, lest all life in the universe cease to exist as a result of tailoring our own equipment to our own tastes, and thinking for ourselves
but nope, flame away, just keep it up
nevermind that I actually agreed with your first post, and was simply suggesting that users have a sub, and test out what THEY prefer, giving my own experience as an example
OBVIOUSLY you have the only true answer and knowledge base, and OBVIOUSLY your equipment is equal to all other equipment, so there is no room for compromise or difference, thus only your advice and opinion is what matters, and I should just kill myself for trying to set up my equipment (paid for with my money) to suit my tastes, because it isn't to your satisfaction and as a result I'm "spreading lies"
as a result of "spreading misinformation" (which is acutally just a personal account of my own experiences) I'm obviously creating conditions where children WILL DIE and creating fire hazards for ALL USERS (with no question), if you read my personal experiences about my system, all life in the universe will obviously cease to exist, PERIOD
therefore we must all bow down and follow sycraft's advice, lest all life in the universe cease to exist as a result of tailoring our own equipment to our own tastes, and thinking for ourselves
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I'd love to post useful information, but when I try I get told I'm spreading misinformation and lies, and that I shouldn't talk because I'm creating trouble for people, because I've obviously done it all wrong, although I shouldn't be ashamed of failure