$1500-2000 mini ITX build for engineering

[noobzilla]

A coworker just asked me to build a powerful desktop that she can carry around. Budget is $1500-2000. It will be used for engineering like CAD. I told her to wait for Skylake as well as for Silverstone SFX-L 600W / 700W to power a GTX 780 ti or 980 ti. I'm leaning towards nvidia due to better power efficiency and driver updates than AMD. Any opinion is welcome. Here's my draft build and price estimate:

$205 NCase M1
$130 Motherboard
$360 Intel i7
$350 GTX 780 ti 3GB
$150 (estimate) Silverstone SFX-L 600/700W
$40 CPU Heatsink
$125 16GB DDR4 RAM (2x 8GB)
$330 1TB SSD
$40 Slot loading DVD drive
$20 120mm fans x2

$1750 total. +$300 for GTX 980 ti or Haswell-E cpu/mobo and just a bit over budget. Can definitely find deals to lower the total.

Other options:
Asrock LGA 2011 mini-ITX and i7 5820k
- extra cost and lower cpu frequency in exchange of extra cores.
- not all apps take advantage of all extra cores
- hotter than regular i7
- limited CPU cooling due to narrow ILM socket

Gaming vs Workstation card
- workstation cards have better compatibility and support, but way way more expensive
- theoretically, workstation cards would produce less errors (from what I read)
- those who have used both usually say they would have preferred getting a gaming card

CPU heatsink
- leaning towards Cooler Master Geminii M4
- no water cooling and no very heavy heatsink due to traveling (plane turbulence)


Questions:
1) For anyone here who has used both gaming and workstation cards for work (engineering), which one should I get?
2) Can the Silverstone SFX-L 500W safely power a non overclock 4790k and GTX 780 ti or 980 ti?

 

[SaperPL]

Gaming vs Workstation card
- workstation cards have better compatibility and support, but way way more expensive
- theoretically, workstation cards would produce less errors (from what I read)
- those who have used both usually say they would have preferred getting a gaming card

Questions:
1) For anyone here who has used both gaming and workstation cards for work (engineering), which one should I get?
2) Can the Silverstone SFX-L 500W safely power a non overclock 4790k and GTX 780 ti or 980 ti?

It all depends on what your friend is going to do on this pc.

First of all software compatibility - we've been using solidworks for over decade now and I'd say usually even newer gaming cards suck in comparison to quite old quadro models. For solidworks it was always because of partially disabled gpu acceleration on non-professional gpu's. Also catia might have similar problem since it's developed by the same company.

If there's no gaming requirement I'd say go for professional card and save the money you're unnecessarily spending on more powerful PSU, expensive cooler and high end chassis. Get powerful cpu - Xeon E3 or Core i7, some mid range quadro and you're good to go even with some 500W unit. You can either use saved money on getting more expensive quadro or get better monitor.

If there's some gaming involved then don't go for 780ti or 980. GTX 970 should be enough and it doesn't require 700W psu either.

As for the cpu on X99 - You can also choose a cheaper 6 core E5-2609 which is 85W but that's only if you really want more cores rather than higher frequency and temperatures

Be smart about this - don't force hot(as in draining a lot of power) gaming stuff on a friend if she doesn't need that.

 

[EdZ]

It will be used for engineering like CAD

Check what CAD software she is using. Some software may require a Quadro or Firepro card to enable GPU acceleration, which would eat up most of the budget. Or it may not support GPU acceleration at all, in which case it may be worth putting in only a low-end GPU adn spending the cash on an X99 ITX board and a high performance Xeon.

::EDIT:: I actually chose an AIO cooler specifically because of travel. By mounting the large radiator mass to the chassis (rather than a large copper mass to the motherboard) it is more resilient to shocks without damaging the board.

 

[HeavensCloud]

I don't know a whole lot about your software requirements, but it looks like you are trying to build a fancy gaming computer, not a work horse. Also, don't some of those CAD programs utilize more than 16GB of RAM on large projects?

 

[rive22]

I second the x99 and 5820k far CAD. Don't bother with quad core when you can get a hex for nearly the same price.

 

[ant_mcbane]

The CAD workstations we have at work (I work for a moderately large Oil & Gas EPC firm) are dual socket ivy bridge era quad core Xeon's with 128GB RAM and a Quadro K4200 fwiw. We do 99% of our work in Matlab (Simulink), Ansys, Solidworks and Access/Excel depending on what we're doing.

What I'm trying to say by listing these specs is that if you want to build a professional level CAD system ITX is currently unfortunately not that feasible... for uni or small scale sure because you can get away with 16gb RAM but when you need the step up you have to go for the enormous motherboards with plenty of RAM slots. When you're at home 16GB is fine for most cases but there are times when it isn't.

It looks like what you are making there is a gaming machine - If you want a workstation you have to do things a bit differently.

 

[Barbarian_PT]

(...) It looks like what you are making there is a gaming machine - If you want a workstation you have to do things a bit differently.

Yep, looks like that!

 

[iFreilicht]

I don't know about the performance of pro cards, but I know that Autodesk specifically tests their software on the the Quadro and FirePro cards, not on the consumer cards. From what I read, they also exceed in CAD specific rendering tasks like wireframe modes. I think that the pro cards also have ECC RAM, which is preferable for stability. I personally didn't have any problems with it on my 970, but I work with extremely small models.

Also, you'll want to be able to put 32GB of RAM into that machine, maybe even more. Maybe not initially, but a lot of designers I know get problems with just 16GB and a bit of multitasking. Use the ASrock X99 ITX board to get support for DDR4 if the build needs to be completed soon, and get a real good multicore Xeon in there if you can afford it. If you can wait for Skylake, maybe do that, could save you a bit of money for DDR4 support.

I think ant_mcbane has a point in that the real high performance workstations have a lot more to offer, but it depends on the CAD work that is actually done. Maybe an mATX system would be the better idea.

 

[mx6er2587]

I'm actually in the process of building a slightly lower budget version of this same concept.

I am looking to do some gaming, but will mainly be running autodesk products. Some matlab, and large excel/access files. Below is my system and reasoning,

$45-Silverstone SG06 - Not as nice as an n-case but slightly smaller, and way way cheaper. Looks better than sg05.
$120- AsRock z97 motherboard: best price/feature in my opinion. If waiting for skylake was an option I probably would assuming timing rumors are true.
$230- Intel 4690k i5: Hyperthreading on my budget wasn't worth the extra cash. With a slightly larger budget I would have gone 4790k.
$310- EVGA GTX 970: much cheaper than a workstation card and for my workloads just as good. I felt a 980 was overkill and couldn't justify the expense.
$150- Samsung EVO 500gb ssd: 500gb is really the best combo of price/gb and performance right now. I'm supplementing with an additional 2.5" 500gb HD I had just sitting around. I'd have gone 1TB if in budget.
$100- Silverstone SX500-L: I haven't noticed the clickly clack yet, but it was the best thing available to me when I bought it to replace the failed psu in my current rig. It's getting moved over to the new PC. If I were purchasing now I would go with the highpower variant available on ebay.
$100- 2x8gb 2133 ddr3. There is no such thing as enough memory in a system like this. If your coworker can live with a larger case definitely go matx and 32 gigs of ram.
$60 Cyrorig C1 heatsink: Its huge with a huge fan and fits. Last piece of my build that I'm waiting on so hopefully I'm happy with it.

Total of $1115 on a budget of $1200. Went a hair over after buying a g710+ keyboard. Everything except the PSU was purchased using deals/coupons/rebates available in the last 2 weeks. If my budget was expanded I would first go with the i7, than MLC SSD, than larger SSD, than pro gpu.

Also you haven't clarified if your coworker is expecting monitor/mouse/keyboard in that budget. I know most people here wouldn't count that in a build, but many people are thinking the whole package when they say "computer"

 

[noobzilla]

Thank you all for the responses. I definitely appreciate it since I'm obviously quite a noob when it comes to building a work desktop, though I didn't end up with a gaming set-up just because I'm a gamer. I've been reading a lot (ie 4 vs 6 core and workstation vs consumer card) so I can up with the best desktop for her uses.

Since it's been brought out a lot, here's one reason I picked a gaming card after seeing this benchmark and this one too.

Check what CAD software she is using.

::EDIT:: I actually chose an AIO cooler specifically because of travel.

I emailed her for a list of programs. I will post an update when I get that. Do you take your computer to flights? I'm worried of pressure changes and whether AIO coolers are even allowed because of the liquid. Have to read up on that before I consider it an option. The air cooling I'm planning to get is not too heavy and low profile.

First of all software compatibility - we've been using solidworks for over decade now and I'd say usually even newer gaming cards suck in comparison to quite old quadro models.

If there's no gaming requirement I'd say go for professional card and save the money you're unnecessarily spending on more powerful PSU, expensive cooler and high end chassis.

Be smart about this - don't force hot(as in draining a lot of power) gaming stuff on a friend if she doesn't need that.

No gaming, but I'll confirm. I've been doing a lot of research about workstation vs gaming cards. People did mention about compatibility and there's some who also say they were disappointed when they switched to a workstation card of the same price. I think in the end it comes down to what programs she will use.

My options are totally open right now. I'll definitely change the chassis and PSU if there's no need for full a sized gpu.

I second the x99 and 5820k far CAD. Don't bother with quad core when you can get a hex for nearly the same price.

Once I get a response from her I'll individually look up whether the programs would use all the cores. I read that some programs benefit from faster frequency vs more cores past 4 (8 with hyper threading).

.

for uni or small scale sure because you can get away with 16gb RAM but when you need the step up you have to go for the enormous motherboards with plenty of RAM slots.

Also, you'll want to be able to put 32GB of RAM into that machine, maybe even more.

I think ant_mcbane has a point in that the real high performance workstations have a lot more to offer, but it depends on the CAD work that is actually done. Maybe an mATX system would be the better idea.

There's definitely limitations on ITX, but it will be better than any laptop and should fit on most luggage compartments of airplanes. I'm curious what you two work on? We work on solar farm layouts, so nothing too complicated as opposed to other ones I think of ie cars and buildings.

Also you haven't clarified if your coworker is expecting monitor/mouse/keyboard in that budget. I know most people here wouldn't count that in a build, but many people are thinking the whole package when they say "computer"

She said just the desktop. She already has a monitor/mouse/keyboard at home.


EDIT: added benchmark

 

[dr.stevil]

If it were me, I'd go for a Dell Precision laptop. A lot more portable than lugging around a mini-ITX case IMO.... and she can use with an external display/mouse/keyboard when she needs it.

I have an older one that I primarily use for 3D work (engineering and design) and its great. Unless she's using it for structural analysis and that type of work (which a mini-ITX wouldn't be ideal for either... as she'd likely want a crapload of RAM and multiple Xeons), a precision is designed specifically for this type of work

 

[dr.stevil]

Thank you all for the responses. I definitely appreciate it since I'm obviously quite a noob when it comes to building a work desktop, though I didn't end up with a gaming set-up just because I'm a gamer. I've been reading a lot (ie 4 vs 6 core and workstation vs consumer card) so I can up with the best desktop for her uses.

Since it's been brought out a lot, here's one reason I picked a gaming card after seeing this benchmark

I wouldn't go by benchmarks alone. Yes, a gaming card will get you more performance for your dollar most of the time, but Quadro and FireGL drivers are written with compatibility and stability in mind. I've seen consumer grade GPU's give artifacts and other odd performance behavior in certain CAD software while the workstation GPU's were rock solid.

just something to think about.

edit: not to mention, AutoCAD is hardly what I'd consider a worthy benchmark when it comes it engineering and design software these days

 

[SaperPL]

keep in mind that SpecView is a synthetic test which even when ran on the same engine as the application might not be a good representation of how it really works.

With non professional cards we've had such problems in solidworks:
- always full gpu acceleration is disabled since there's no professional gpu installed.
- works like crap in wireframe mode
- wireframe buffer tears/stutters on scrolling and rotating and sometimes leaves other stuff visible when it should be already hidden.
- you can't full "eyecandy" modes/shading/etc.

So unless there's a real reason to go for a powerful gaming card, like for example high quality rendering engine for the CAD can use gpu acceleration, then go for a pro card with the same price range - it's a choice for example between GTX 970 and Quadro K2200.

 

[mx6er2587]

keep in mind that SpecView is a synthetic test which even when ran on the same engine as the application might not be a good representation of how it really works.

With non professional cards we've had such problems in solidworks:
- always full gpu acceleration is disabled since there's no professional gpu installed.
- works like crap in wireframe mode
- wireframe buffer tears/stutters on scrolling and rotating and sometimes leaves other stuff visible when it should be already hidden.
- you can't full "eyecandy" modes/shading/etc.

So unless there's a real reason to go for a powerful gaming card, like for example high quality rendering engine for the CAD can use gpu acceleration, then go for a pro card with the same price range - it's a choice for example between GTX 970 and Quadro K2200.

Please keep in mind that this is relevant to your specific workload. We use autodesk products at my company and they are directX based and show little to no improvement moving to a Pro level card. For my workloads a GTX970 buys me a whole lot more than a k2200

 

[SaperPL]

Yeah, I get that - I said it's how it tend to work with solidworks.

Anyway if you get same results with pro and gaming cards at the same price you could go for a pro card because of the lower power consumption, almost silent work and, I think, longer warranty.

 

[iFreilicht]

T[...]
There's definitely limitations on ITX, but it will be better than any laptop and should fit on most luggage compartments of airplanes. I'm curious what you two work on? We work on solar farm layouts, so nothing too complicated as opposed to other ones I think of ie cars and buildings.

I personally work just on the PC cases, and for me 16GB are absolutely fine, I've got way under 100 parts per assembly. At work we're making a rather complicated 3D-Scanning devices with lots of different solid bodies, sheet metal parts, weldments and sub-assemblies, I'd say including every bit and bob, we've got well over 1000 parts and our engineers regularly say it would be nice if they could have a bit of overhead. They all work on 16GB systems, two of which are Macs. The windows machine has a 980 in it, btw. Everything works fine for the most part, but we get regular crashes with Inventor (2-6 times a day), and the logs seem to indicate that this has to do with driver problems.
That's another thing with pro GPUs: Their drivers are optimised for CAD and rendering software like drivers for consumer GPUs are optimised for different Games and part of the price you pay for those GPUs you pay for extensive testing of the software.

 

[Phuncz]

Personally I would find it plain lying if the proposed gaming build is sold as a 3D workstation. Workstations are for good reason provided with Xeon processors, ECC memory and workstation-class GPUs.
Sure, you could get "workstation-like" performance from the proposed build but if the purpose is to do your job, you don't want crashes and incompatibilities ruin your workflow because someone thought that it's all the same crap.
It's all possible to do it properly within the price-range but without the incompatibility and issues you get from slapping a desktop gaming system together.

 

[noobzilla]

Any recommendations for a mini-itx case smaller than the ncase M1 if I go for LGA 2011 and small sized graphics card? Preferably something that can fit a decent heatsink for the CPU.

 

[illram]

I think the SG13, SG06 and the SG05 and cases of that ilk (i.e. shoebox cases) are it, if you need a larger heatsink but <12L of volume. The ncase is already pretty darn small at a little over 12 liters, considering what you can stuff inside.

mini-itx.com has a fairly comprehensive list sorted by volume, albeit a bit dated.

 

[Aibohphobia]

Here's another good list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...n-vfqXVhD-HZDqqB80s/edit?pli=1#gid=1876873166

 

[noobzilla]

bump

Been very busy at work. Here's the list of programs

· AutoCAD Civil 3D
· Google Sketchup
· Trade Station
· Adobe Acrobat
· Google Earth
· Microsoft Suite
· PVSyst
· Matlab
· OrCAD PSpice

Question goes back to workstation vs regular cards. I'll spend some time tonight to check Civil3D and OrCAD, but I think the rest should be fine with a regular card.

 

[Aibohphobia]

Autodesk uses DirectX for most their software so typically a consumer card runs much better than pro cards.

 

[caycep]

Was just looking at something similar; I'd ditch the Ncase and go with a Silverstone SG10, the Asrock Rack C226M WS board, and an E3-Xeon at minimum, plus whatever pro card she has to use. Or just configure a Dell T1700 tower and call it a day...

doesn't her work spring the money for the IT guys to just give her a machine like this?

Workstation cards for peace of mind - drivers work better, features, unlocked, better GPU chip binning, and don't they also come with some special warranty that replaces the card in the event it fries?