I agree, I see it being useful in many applications, but not as a standalone item. Trading a crypto currency is akin to trading empty cardboard boxes. The boxes value is in their ability to be used to package things. Same with block-chain - the ability to reach consensus on the origin and contents but they're being traded as the piece of value itself, which makes no sense to me.
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I agree, I see it being useful in many applications, but not as a standalone item. Trading a crypto currency is akin to trading empty cardboard boxes. The boxes value is in their ability to be used to package things. Same with block-chain - the ability to reach consensus on the origin and contents but they're being traded as the piece of value itself, which makes no sense to me.
wigglywaffles
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That describes the bulk of wealth generation methods. Capitalism has never been about rewarding the hard working or people who contribute to society.
How so? Most generate wealth by producing something of value - like a product (be it physical or virtual, like software), mining a natural resource that people want/need, providing a service etc. This is basically 'mining' by doing completely throw away computations that have no value and, oddly, being 'compensated' for it with something that has no inherent value other than as a container. It reminds me of Dutch tulip mania, except in that you at least had a tulip.
Comixbooks
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Crypto currency is worse then 1988 Donruss baseball cards in Mint Condition.
it does have inherent value, that is why we are getting compensated for it
.Its like money, that 1 buck isn't worth one buck in the products that were used to print it. Fiat money has no gold backing anymore, back prior to removal of the gold standard, the total printed money of the US was equal to the amount of gold it had. So doesn't matter how much money was printed it all equaled the same amount, this is why the gold standard was removed, because if Gold went down, that would trash the economy Now its based on trust and acceptability of that paper in our wallets, that is where it gets its value from, as do most of the cryptocurrancies.
Unlike printed money though, most cryptocurrancies can only be mined or by other means of computer calculations to verify transactions. That is the "printing" of cryptocurrancies, this limits uncontrolled inflation, also limits market manipulation to a certain degree, still can happen, but not easy to do.
it does have inherent value, that is why we are getting compensated for it
Its like money, that 1 buck isn't worth one buck in the products that were used to print it. Fiat money has no gold backing anymore, back prior to removal of the gold standard, the total printed money of the US was equal to the amount of gold it had. So doesn't matter how much money was printed it all equaled the same amount, this is why the gold standard was removed, because if Gold went down, that would trash the economy Now its based on trust and acceptability of that paper in our wallets, that is where it gets its value from, as do most of the cryptocurrancies.
It is backed, just not solely by gold anymore. For the dollar, each Federal Reserve Bank is required by law to pledge collateral at least equal to the amount of currency it has issued into circulation. The bulk of the collateral pledged is in the form of U.S. Government securities and gold certificates owned by the Federal Reserve Banks.
Cryptos are "backed" by hashes, which have no actual value to anyone, it's throwaway math, and they have no inherent value in themselves, that's the disconnect I see. The dollar is backed by the US govt. (the value of that can be debated, sure, but to say it has no value would be wrong), where cryptos are backed by nothing. It's a supply/demand shell game where both the supply and demand are (at least initially) completely artificial.
It's like a poker game with no money in - everyone gets issues chips but at the end of the game, what does the winner get if nobody exchanged anything for those chips other than their willingness to sit down at the table?
it does have inherent value, that is why we are getting compensated for it
Its like money, that 1 buck isn't worth one buck in the products that were used to print it. Fiat money has no gold backing anymore, back prior to removal of the gold standard, the total printed money of the US was equal to the amount of gold it had. So doesn't matter how much money was printed it all equaled the same amount, this is why the gold standard was removed, because if Gold went down, that would trash the economy Now its based on trust and acceptability of that paper in our wallets, that is where it gets its value from, as do most of the cryptocurrancies.
Unlike printed money though, most cryptocurrancies can only be mined or by other means of computer calculations to verify transactions. That is the "printing" of cryptocurrancies, this limits uncontrolled inflation, also limits market manipulation to a certain degree, still can happen, but not easy to do.
Gold going down wouldn't trash the economy there would be other reasons for gold to down and this is the cuase for a bad ecomony. But that isn't why we went off the gold standard in early 70s. We went off gold standard because it was too hard to finance wars if you can only fund them through war bonds. Vietnam was unpopular and no amount of celebrities were going to bring in bond sales to cover it. So we went off gold standard and our national debt is measured in double digit trillions now. Currently we got 3 wars going and just gave massive tax cuts to big corporations. No problem since no gold standard, just print more.
The gold standard was broken in the 30's, great depression. Due to crazy inflation of the dollar, and uncontrolled interest rates due to the gold standard that is why it was dropped. But soon after what happened was the gov issued gold dollars, to finance WWII, this is what you are talking about that Nixon removed, those gold dollars, kept gold at 30 bucks an ounce or something like that, can't remember. But the gov was using the gold dollars as a bond type system, and US citizens weren't allowed to hold gold coins or bullion.
And you can't just print more money, the US Gov prints so much money per year and it trys to account for all of it, hard to, but they are pretty good at it.
Printing as much money as you want you get inflation.
No there is no backing to the dollar anymore, the way the US Gov works with cash flow now is all by interest rates.
Crypto are not backed by hashes, its backed by transactions, those transactions are based on trust and real money, each "hash" is just verification of a transaction.
What a miner does is if one person sends a certain type of crypto to another person, the miner verifies that the transaction is legitimate
1) coins are real
2) parties are real
3) transaction happened
Simplifying it a bit cause not all block chains are the same, but this is the general premise.
By doing that verification, the miner gets paid in that coin.
bringing back bad memories lol dude had a box set of 1989 donruss, still sealed, when I was a kid, left it at my friends house, we were trading cards, he fuckin opened them lol, I was so pissed.
So we need to waste all that electricity to "verify" a transaction?
Crypto Mining is the biggest waste to the environment in history. It literally serves no purpose to humanity, as there are plenty of legitimate currencies already available.
In the meantime, we are burning coal, and gas, and nuclear, adding greenhouse gases...... why?
The US dollar is known as the "reserve currency" of the world.
If you lookup foreign exchange rates the majority of them are referenced to the value of a US dollar.
It is the most highly sought after because US is the largest economy in the world, and people trust the US dollar for its stability.
The Gold standard is dead (not backed by gold anymore by any countries), but the US has a non-political affiliated Federal Reserve to support low inflation (2% target) that has earned the World's Trust.
Why should the world put their trust in a crypto currency?
For Etherium and Bitcoin, etc, what is their version of the Federal Reserve to ensure price stability?
If Prices swing as wildly as Bitcoin, how would an employer even offer a salary in bitcoin to their employees? One year they may earn equivalent of $45K, the next $125K, followed by 60K.....
There is a reason the US dollar dominates and for these reasons I don't see how a crypto coin could ever be useful for anything other than what it was intended for (dark money, hiding the ability to trace assets).
This is why some coins are POS or are going to POS. You can't mine coins for ever, the block chain share per block drops significantly and difficulty in mining increases to the point they become unprofitable to mine, this is what happened with Bitcoin and litecoin, yeah asics were made but even those will die eventually too. GPU mining only coins same thing will happen to them, once the market stabilizes more in the future, "new" coins will not come up, each block chain has a unique set of properties tied to specific needs of the designers, not all coins are going to be profitable nor will they be good investments either. Miners if they are looking for investment purposes, should not be mining for a diamond in the rough with a good share of their hashing power, they should be covering their asses by selling off the coins they mine to cover their ROI then go from an investment point of view.
Didn't say otherwise did I? Trust that is exactly what I stated, and that is why the USD is what it is.
Pure economics of supply and demand, no such thing as adjusting interst rates that cause stimulation of the market or decreasing inflation of a currency.
Cryptocurrancy as dark money has been dead since silk road. Its too easy for vendors to "steal" transactions. Crypto currancy is great for point to point transactions, but when it comes to large sums of crypto being converted to Fiat, if it was dark money its impossible to go unnoticed. The transactions are easily seen in the block chain and all one has to do is link up the account holder of that transaction to the bank account of the holder. The anonymity part comes prior to the person going to fiat money. To do this the account holder has to verify his/or her bank account with valid ids too.
Once you start seeing major financial institution start using crypto for bank to bank tranfers, I think you will see why I mean, its already been done in the EU with Ether, this was why Ether started going up close to year and half ago.
having said all that, mining will be strong for another 3 or 4 years, this is because Bitcoin, Ether are going to drive the cryptomarkets but in 6 years, Bitcoin will not be mine able anymore even with asics, I think in 3 years profits get cut in half with asics due to the block/share reward ratio changing, so if they are making 30 bucks a day right now, its down to 15. This is if no more asics are made, but they will be made, so expecting it to be cut down to 7.5 bucks a day. in 6 years its going to be unprofitable on asics too, this goes for Dash, Litecoin will happen sooner. Eth is going POS end of this year, so that driving force is going to drop.
You don't think Bank Of America, Chase, Suntrust, Citibank, Visa, Capital One . . . consume electricity to verify transactions - not only that have whole buildings being heated, guards, maintenance, employees driving cars etc. consuming energy? You might be surprised but Crytocurrency maybe more energy efficient overall especially the none ASIC driven coins.
- An integrity transaction is valuable, in fact that is the only worthwhile transaction method
- A decentralized transaction system is extremely resilient while centralize ones can fail and fail big
- People buy things online that have no real physicality to them - games - images - animations - videos yet they have extreme amount of value which can be traded for physical items (Hey I got these 10 movies you want but you have to agree to the imbedded contract and only you can sell if said contract is accepted by the recipient - otherwise the transfer would be automatically blocked based on violating the Copywrite in addition you agree to this one time agreement/contract between you and me to send me . . .)
- If you or I can exchange game assets, buy games, images, movies etc. with something that is so transparent but also private (between you and I) then that trading means has value. Money in a nutshell is a trading medium for exchanging value
- You are actually looking at Cryptocurrency making obsolete the old method of the banking system on the internet, giving way more privacy (another valuable thing) then the current money system
- Unlawful search and seizures deals with your right to privacy and dual process and helps ensure that - current money system gives you virtually no privacy on what you own, buy, locations etc.
- Cryptocurrency in themselves can have valuable inherit worth from messaging, contracts, other type of apps beyond accepted agreed upon market value
Comixbooks
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WorldExclusive
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lol pretty much. The blockchain is useful, but the coin isn't.
People are building pyramid schemes with the coins. The first to invest and get out make the most money, the others are left holding the bag. And there are a lot of bags being held right now.
Not sure how this works given there are way more miners than transactions on a new coin..And then when mining dries up, what happens, the coin is useless?
In reality they are extremely loosely related - the transaction processing part takes maybe a billionth (depending on mining difficulty, way less than that on a 'mature' coin) of the computation portion of mining, the rest is a useless computation puzzle tacked on to manage the difficulty. It's almost completely wasted computation that doesn't solve anything or provide value. I could see if that computing power were sold (ala AWS) or used to solve a large problem (ala folding@home) but it's all wasted - wasted energy, pc hardware, time and computing power that could be used for something of value, even if that's just entertainment (ala gaming). It's a sham.
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once coins aren't mine able, demand stays the same, then the price stays the same, if demand goes up price goes up, its the same when coins are mined, supply is increased by pretty slowly lol.
Look blockchain tech is in its infancy, these coins are the test subject for something more. What that is, who knows, but one day we might have new types of credit cards based on blockchain, yes its possible. And having credit card fraud will be a thing of the past, because now everything is based off your ewallet and everything is verified by the person doing the transaction.
Wire transfers might happen within hours or minutes instead of days, wouldn't that be nice?
Lets look further, a persons physical assets can be tracked with block chain technology, not just money.
Now going to India, trying to buy a property and finding out years later the seller was a fraud, yes this happens in India, or happened in the past. Once something like this happens, well you can have the banks and gov out your hair from property fees for ownership papers and what not, same thing for cars, why the hell do you have to go to the DMV and pay for a title transfer? Do we really need a notary public for all legal things? Tax payers are paying for that person right?
Lets go further, a multiple databases for medical needs, can be put into the cloud to create a singular database for everyone, sounds great, MS tried doing it, failed miserably, now base that off of blockchain technology, doesn't matter anymore, it will work cause that is the reason for that tech.
The value is an accurate ledger not corrupted. Without a centralized authority.
The checking method is the computations to ensure the validity of your transactions so you don’t get your ass handed to.
Real Accountants get paid big bucks to keep big books straight and they still mess up. Hundred of Millions of transactions have occurred and the block chain has been flawless.
Now many have found value and is reason for current values to a certain extent.
Absolutely, that's the value of blockchain, as a container for transactions. The container itself shouldn't be what's valued (just like a cardboard box has minimal value on it's own), that's the issue with crypto I've been getting at.
Yes, but mining isn't just logging transactions, that's a miniscule portion of it. If that was all that was going on I'd be perfectly content, but instead they tack on computationally intensive waste to make it more difficult as a means to meter out the currency - and this is what people are paid for, not processing transactions, which is completely crazy.
The container is the most important thing, who can put their hands in the container and who can take things out of the container lol. Right now lets take credit cards for example, all ya need is are two numbers the in the front of the card and the three or four digits in back. There are no checks and balances till after the fact. With blockchain, the verification must be done on the spot by the person doing the transaction, if they don't have the right keys, the transaction will not go through. And this means there is no more need for the credit card fraud department. I'm sure some ingenuous fraudster will figure a way around this, but the resources that person will need will be kinda crazy so short to mid term, fraud will all be but eliminated. Even long term its going to be hard to break it. This transaction happens instantly as well, the vendor or seller doesn't have to wait a day or two to get his money. Right now a vendor or seller even though thinks he got the money instantly, they didn't, the way credit cards work, is the transaction is approved, there is still a lag there for real assets to be shifted.
Your other post towards Noko, yes that is true computation power is not being used effectively as the size and age of the block chain increases, and that is when its no longer viable to mine
. This is when those coins must go to a different type of system for its checks and balances, hence why Eth has plans to go to POS.Yes, bitcoin that is true, many coins have evolved from that, less wasteful or efficient in maintaining the block chain, faster. Proof of Stake takes that even further but I still can’t get my head around that.
I fail to understand how that's what's important. If there's nothing of value in the container, why would anyone want to put their hands in it? Same as a cardboard box - if I have a box filled with Styrofoam peanuts and a packing list listing the styrofoam peanuts, it's not worth anything other than the few cents it takes to make the box, styrofoam and print out the packing list (similar to the miniscule computation it takes to record blockchain transactions, it's nothing computationally). A box filled with hundred dollar bills or with the deeds to houses or even real peanuts you can eat, different story, that's worth something and then there's a reason to open the box and the packing list has some meaning - you're making sure everything is there. But the valuable part isn't the packing list or the box, it's the stuff in the box. Crypto is essentially passing around cardboard boxes that just have a packing list and placing all the value on the box and packing list. And then selling the box and packing list. For stupid money. Oh, and they make you pick the box up and put it down 5000 times for no reason so you can get another box. And then a week later they raise it to 10000 times, for no reason.
Ok look lets take bitcoin for example cause you are talking about price fluctuations, kinda mixing two things in one, so lets take them apart.
Do you know the reason why Bitcoin went from 2k to 20 over that two month span?
There were three reasons for this to happen. All three caused increased demand for Bitcoin.
1) there were 4 or 5 bitcoin forks. Each fork gave an equal amount of the new bitcoin to previous bitcoin holders. So before these forks happened people were buying Bitcoin in anticipation of this.
2) Bitcoin was introduced into the Chicago Commodities exchange which increased demand as well
3) Prior to the new tax law changes, owners of cryptocurrancy could divert taxes for a year by shifting assets from one coin to another It just so happened it coincided with the new forks and Chicago exchange introduction.
Its purely supply and demand, there is no other factors that caused this leap. It has nothing to do with the blockchain tech. The tech hasn't changed since its inception, but people see the value of it as it evolves into something else.
Now after the new year we see a drop in Bitcoin prices, yes that was going to happen because two of those factors are now gone, the forks have been done and the "dividends" have been given out. Shifting assets around is also finished.
But one remains the chicago commodities exchange.
This is why I said to another, Crypto prices will not drop back to what they were in the past there are reasons for this demand, and it will only go up from here as block chain tech and cryptocurrancies are adopted in the future. But there will be a time these current cryptocurrancies will be unmineable. It will happen just not now, in about 3 to 5 years it will happen. The reason why this isn't like litcoin or bitcoin mining in the past is that there are a rush of new types of blockchains and ICO's, so its going to be a bit longer then before, but the motivation for these new coins are coming from Bitcoin, litecoin, eth, dash etc. Once those motivating factors are gone the new coins will no longer be interesting to investors unless those new coins have a backing of something substantial, like you said there is nothing of inherent value outside of the blockchain.
Its like the earlier stock market (when it was first introduced) or the dot com craze, we have seen it before, anything with a .com at the end of it boomed, then crashed, only a handful remained. Same thing will happen with these new crypto's, the ones that have something substantial behind them will remain, this is why I don't buy ICO's or new coins for that matter, because at some point they will die. (I will mine and sell them to bitcoin, litecoin or eth though)
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I decided to sell my 1070, working on that now actually. Depending on the model, you can easily get $500-$600 for a 1070.
oldmanbal
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pretty much lost track of what this thread was about. . .however straight forward the title appeared.
"You don't think Bank Of America, Chase, Suntrust, Citibank, Visa, Capital One . . . consume electricity to verify transactions - not only that have whole buildings being heated, guards, maintenance, employees driving cars etc. consuming energy? You might be surprised but Crytocurrency maybe more energy efficient overall especially the none ASIC driven coins."
Noko-
These big name banks are processing billions of transactions for millions of customers. If you know anything about data centers and energy efficiency you would know that it is more efficient to have several mega sized data centers than to run 100 smaller data centers throughout the country. As you pointed out, this way they are cooling less floor space, etc.
When big banks process transactions the servers are doing just that. They are not wasting energy because of an artificially inflated hash rate difficulty such as bitcoin etc. Efficiency again is about scale, its much more efficient to process these transactions in centralized data centers (Big Bank) than 1 million home computers.(Bitcoin)..........
Cryptocurrency will be proven legit if it shows long term growth for a purpose besides speculative investors. Can someone remind me what the advantage is for an average consumer to use cryptocurrency instead of US dollar?
Clearly Im a non-believer at this point, but big props to those of you who have made money on this. If you have profited, please do yourself a favor and at least cash out half of your crypto earnings and leave the rest in for speculation.
Noko-
These big name banks are processing billions of transactions for millions of customers. If you know anything about data centers and energy efficiency you would know that it is more efficient to have several mega sized data centers than to run 100 smaller data centers throughout the country. As you pointed out, this way they are cooling less floor space, etc.
When big banks process transactions the servers are doing just that. They are not wasting energy because of an artificially inflated hash rate difficulty such as bitcoin etc. Efficiency again is about scale, its much more efficient to process these transactions in centralized data centers (Big Bank) than 1 million home computers.(Bitcoin)..........
Cryptocurrency will be proven legit if it shows long term growth for a purpose besides speculative investors. Can someone remind me what the advantage is for an average consumer to use cryptocurrency instead of US dollar?
Clearly Im a non-believer at this point, but big props to those of you who have made money on this. If you have profited, please do yourself a favor and at least cash out half of your crypto earnings and leave the rest in for speculation.
Krenum
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Yes. The US dollar (or any other form of hard currency) is built on Trust. Trust between the Government & Financial institution. Laugh at it if you want, but that's the way it always been.
heatlesssun
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Bingo. Not only that, there's a certain amount of stability in that trust. It can't be $2 one day, $1 the next day or $3 the day after that. These wild swings are what make cryptocurrencies problematic as currencies.