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Microsoft is grouping its efforts to fix Windows internally under the K2 project

I don't think there's much wrong with Windows 11 per se. I think it has much more to do with non-stop incessant marketing of services around it. 11 isn't perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as people make it sound when complaining.
 
mullet said:
Yeah you are probably righ I am sure SteamOS will be a huge failure.
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Compared to Windows or macOS, it is. It's only shipping on a few handhelds (the Steam Deck and certain Lenovo Legion Go devices), with only a few million sold. It's unappealing for anyone who isn't a Steam-focused gamer.

Microsoft has to build an OS that serves everything from $300 laptops for China through to $30,000 workstations and $3 million server arrays. It has to court users who will never install a game and are far more interested in specialized industry tools or cloud services. That requires a fundamentally different corporate strategy.
 
Aurelius said:
Compared to Windows or macOS, it is. It's only shipping on a few handhelds (the Steam Deck and certain Lenovo Legion Go devices), with only a few million sold. It's unappealing for anyone who isn't a Steam-focused gamer.

Microsoft has to build an OS that serves everything from $300 laptops for China through to $30,000 workstations and $3 million server arrays. It has to court users who will never install a game and are far more interested in specialized industry tools or cloud services. That requires a fundamentally different corporate strategy.
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Everybody wants Copilot in every app
 
OFaceSIG said:
I don't think there's much wrong with Windows 11 per se. I think it has much more to do with non-stop incessant marketing of services around it. 11 isn't perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as people make it sound when complaining.
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There WASN'T anything wrong with 11. Microsoft fixed that by ignoring it's purpose as an OS and seeing it as a platform to force their cloud stack on you. Then they doubled down with vibe coding every major patch for the last six months and repeatedly shipping stuff that bricked machines.
 
raz-0 said:
There WASN'T anything wrong with 11. Microsoft fixed that by ignoring it's purpose as an OS and seeing it as a platform to force their cloud stack on you. Then they doubled down with vibe coding every major patch for the last six months and repeatedly shipping stuff that bricked machines.
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I mean, I objected from day one to the intrusive telemetry and the "requirement" for a Microsoft account.
 
Hopefully they are done with thier "Apple envy" and stop putting resources toward making windows look like a mac/iPhone. The home market is gone, and businesses want security and stability.
Ms killed wordpad because no one used it. But then they start adding wordpad features to notepad? Nothing they have done in the last 10 years even makes sense.
 
Wat said:
Hopefully they are done with thier "Apple envy" and stop putting resources toward making windows look like a mac/iPhone. The home market is gone, and businesses want security and stability.
Ms killed wordpad because no one used it. But then they start adding wordpad features to notepad? Nothing they have done in the last 10 years even makes sense.
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How is the home market gone? Also 99% of the real problems of late have nothing to do with the minor UI revisions they are deeply messing the OS up, and at this point it isn't even just so tehy can cram copilot in more spots.
 
Aurelius said:
Compared to Windows or macOS, it is. It's only shipping on a few handhelds (the Steam Deck and certain Lenovo Legion Go devices), with only a few million sold. It's unappealing for anyone who isn't a Steam-focused gamer.

Microsoft has to build an OS that serves everything from $300 laptops for China through to $30,000 workstations and $3 million server arrays. It has to court users who will never install a game and are far more interested in specialized industry tools or cloud services. That requires a fundamentally different corporate strategy.
Click to expand...

I was being a little sarcastic, Gabe started working at MS. I would have more faith in Gabe being able to fix Windows and giving the customers what they want vs who ever is running MS.

Plus aren't must server arrays running Linux anyway? What OS runs most all cloud services? I am not sure.
 
With more and more software being web-based, the OS has never mattered less. I just need something that lets me sort my files, run the few programs I actually still run locally (mostly games and Adobe), and doesn't force me to jump through too many hoops. Microsoft knows this and that's why they're trying to force you into habitually using one of their services at every turn. Get people locked into OneDrive, Copilot, Edge, Gamepass, etc. etc. so it's a pain in the ass to leave. If Apple would ever take non-mobile gaming seriously, I'd bail and never look back. I don't need some rando Linux distro with a screwball name and questionable aesthetics when MacOS exists. Unfortunately, as a "serious" gamer that just isn't feasible.
 
mullet said:
I was being a little sarcastic, Gabe started working at MS. I would have more faith in Gabe being able to fix Windows and giving the customers what they want vs who ever is running MS.

Plus aren't must server arrays running Linux anyway? What OS runs most all cloud services? I am not sure.
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Sorry about that. My sarcasm detector is a bit broken. I'm more optimistic than you are about Microsoft, though, as K2 shows the company is genuinely aware of the problem... even if it took five years.

Most servers are running Linux these days, but Microsoft still has an OS and services for it. The point is really that Microsoft is aiming at an exponentially larger audience. There are 1.6 billion active Windows devices as I write this, and someone running a game-oriented Linux distro would have a hard time adapting.
 
Aurelius said:
Sorry about that. My sarcasm detector is a bit broken. I'm more optimistic than you are about Microsoft, though, as K2 shows the company is genuinely aware of the problem... even if it took five years.

Most servers are running Linux these days, but Microsoft still has an OS and services for it. The point is really that Microsoft is aiming at an exponentially larger audience. There are 1.6 billion active Windows devices as I write this, and someone running a game-oriented Linux distro would have a hard time adapting.
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I think people's concern is that Microsoft doesn't give a F and it's just doing something because of the backlash, and will likely do whatever they want again when they feel the time is right.
 
Sycraft said:
It actually wasn't for TPM they did it, it was for a virtualization feature. HVCI runs real slow on 7th gen and older because of the lack of the feature (can't remember the name, MBEC maybe?) Some 7th gen CPUs do have it but most don't, but all 8th gen do hence that's the cutoff.
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All of Win11's requirements are paper requirements. See the IoT Enterprise version: it has none of the hardware checks that other W11 editions have, but is the same OS core and feature set. You just stick a PID file with a certain key in the sources folder of the W11 media and it's happy to install on pretty much anything that Vista ran on:

1777988271424.png
 
MikeTrike said:
I think people's concern is that Microsoft doesn't give a F and it's just doing something because of the backlash, and will likely do whatever they want again when they feel the time is right.
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I can certainly understand that, and I wouldn't preclude a relapse. I just see the external messaging (multiple messages now, in fact) making it clear that Microsoft knows what it needs to fix.

The dream is that Microsoft finally gets off its "good, bad" release cycle and remembers that Windows' north star is the customer experience, not pitching Copilot or Microsoft 365.
 
Aurelius said:
I'm more optimistic than you are about Microsoft, though, as K2 shows the company is genuinely aware of the problem... even if it took five years.
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It doesn't matter if MS "admits" there is a problem. That doesn't mean the problems MS admits to are the same problems most other people have with MS OSes. It doesn't mean MS will actually do anything about the problems consumers are having because many of those problems are what MS considers features. Even if MS has identified the issues consumers have and actually wants to fix them it doesn't mean MS has the capability to do so.

Everything after Win7 has been a downhill slide. Problems which have lasted that long and have only gotten worse are not fixed overnight. A real fix would require MS to fire almost everyone working on the OS and replace them with people who know what the hell they're doing. It also requires gutting management and executives of the OS and related divisions. It would also require a complete change of corporate culture.

None of this is going to happen. You can be as optimistic as you want but at the end of the day nothing is going to change because MS is incapable of making the changes needed to create change.

The last time MS actually tried to make changes in the OS department was Win8 and those changes were the complete opposite of what anyone wanted or needed because MS was too lazy and too stupid to have two UI designs made for specific use cases. Ever since that point MS OSes have done nothing but stumble along trying to copy the UI of other OSes while doing little or nothing under the hood to make the OS better. For fuck's sake, the shitty Settings panel still hasn't replaced Control Panel, NTFS is still standard and MS still can't write a scheduler for shit no matter how much help Intel and AMD provide.
 
SmokeRngs said:
For fuck's sake, the shitty Settings panel still hasn't replaced Control Panel
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To be fair, I hear the current rumor is they're finally gonna do it this year.

I don't believe it at all, but that's the rumor.
 
1_rick said:
To be fair, I hear the current rumor is they're finally gonna do it this year.

I don't believe it at all, but that's the rumor.
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Heh, they've been saying that for a decade by now. If MS had any brains and wanted to show some serious effort, the Settings panel would be nuked and Control Panel brought back.
 
SmokeRngs said:
It doesn't matter if MS "admits" there is a problem. That doesn't mean the problems MS admits to are the same problems most other people have with MS OSes. It doesn't mean MS will actually do anything about the problems consumers are having because many of those problems are what MS considers features. Even if MS has identified the issues consumers have and actually wants to fix them it doesn't mean MS has the capability to do so.

Everything after Win7 has been a downhill slide. Problems which have lasted that long and have only gotten worse are not fixed overnight. A real fix would require MS to fire almost everyone working on the OS and replace them with people who know what the hell they're doing. It also requires gutting management and executives of the OS and related divisions. It would also require a complete change of corporate culture.

None of this is going to happen. You can be as optimistic as you want but at the end of the day nothing is going to change because MS is incapable of making the changes needed to create change.

The last time MS actually tried to make changes in the OS department was Win8 and those changes were the complete opposite of what anyone wanted or needed because MS was too lazy and too stupid to have two UI designs made for specific use cases. Ever since that point MS OSes have done nothing but stumble along trying to copy the UI of other OSes while doing little or nothing under the hood to make the OS better. For fuck's sake, the shitty Settings panel still hasn't replaced Control Panel, NTFS is still standard and MS still can't write a scheduler for shit no matter how much help Intel and AMD provide.
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Here's the thing, though: the issues it has identified track with real complaints (surprise mandatory updates, excessive Copilot integrations, even those pointless MSN widgets), and it has already fixed a few in the first weeks since the announcement. I wouldn't be optimistic if it weren't that Microsoft is so far acting on its promises.

I agree that institutional change will be much harder, but "none of this is going to happen" and "incapable?" I wouldn't want to presume that, and this is coming from someone that likes to dwell on Steve Ballmer wrecking Microsoft's chances in mobile. There are early signs of progress, and we should see how the company follows through on the rest.
 
Aurelius said:
Here's the thing, though: the issues it has identified track with real complaints (surprise mandatory updates, excessive Copilot integrations, even those pointless MSN widgets), and it has already fixed a few in the first weeks since the announcement. I wouldn't be optimistic if it weren't that Microsoft is so far acting on its promises.

I agree that institutional change will be much harder, but "none of this is going to happen" and "incapable?" I wouldn't want to presume that, and this is coming from someone that likes to dwell on Steve Ballmer wrecking Microsoft's chances in mobile. There are early signs of progress, and we should see how the company follows through on the rest.
Click to expand...
Cosmetic crap. It's the equivalent of pointing out you have a blown engine in you car and you wash it. It looks better because it's no longer dirty but it's still broken.

Until all the people who created the situation Windows is now in are fired and replaced by competent people willing and able to fix the problems, nothing will change. It's a simple fact. This also requires a corporate direction change. MS doesn't care about Windows anymore. The real signs of change will be mass firings and new hires for the OS division including rebuilding the QA division. Until that happens it will be business as usual while telling lies and making small changes that don't matter while the core OS remains unchanged.

Expecting the people who screwed it up in the first place to fix it is a pipe dream. This is especially so when the rot has gone on as long as it has. Inertia, ego and incompetence will ensure it continues in the same direction until those responsible are replaced. Even after the replacements happen it will take a long time to make any noticeable improvements in Windows. The multitude of the core problems with Windows cannot be fixed quickly or easily. It would literally take years to even begin to fix these things.
 
Satya is the one who pushed for the security enforcement/VBS that has slowed everything down so much/made Windows so much more resource intensive
 
Sycraft said:
Also the CPU limit, supposing it stays the same, has become much less of a big deal. When 11 was introduced the 7th gen CPUs weren't all that old. The Intel 7th gen CPUs were launched at the beginning of 2017, 11 came out in mid 2021 so you had CPUs just a little more than 4 years old that it didn't support. That's kinda rough and you can understand why people were upset. If they keep the same restriction now it'll be CPUs that are 9-10 years old, depending on when they launch it. That's much less of an issue.
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By the time they release this new bucket of slop, my 5950x will be 9-10 years old and ram will still be unattainable. The only time MS gets excited about new features is when someone over there comes up with a better way to hoard and sell your data.
 
raz-0 said:
How is the home market gone? Also 99% of the real problems of late have nothing to do with the minor UI revisions they are deeply messing the OS up, and at this point it isn't even just so tehy can cram copilot in more spots.
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Smartphones. Nobody is buying pc's to send emails and look at Facebook now.
 
SmokeRngs said:
Cosmetic crap. It's the equivalent of pointing out you have a blown engine in you car and you wash it. It looks better because it's no longer dirty but it's still broken.

Until all the people who created the situation Windows is now in are fired and replaced by competent people willing and able to fix the problems, nothing will change. It's a simple fact. This also requires a corporate direction change. MS doesn't care about Windows anymore. The real signs of change will be mass firings and new hires for the OS division including rebuilding the QA division. Until that happens it will be business as usual while telling lies and making small changes that don't matter while the core OS remains unchanged.

Expecting the people who screwed it up in the first place to fix it is a pipe dream. This is especially so when the rot has gone on as long as it has. Inertia, ego and incompetence will ensure it continues in the same direction until those responsible are replaced. Even after the replacements happen it will take a long time to make any noticeable improvements in Windows. The multitude of the core problems with Windows cannot be fixed quickly or easily. It would literally take years to even begin to fix these things.
Click to expand...
These first fixes are "cosmetic" because they're relatively easy to fix but will still be noticeable. That doesn't mean Microsoft won't address deeper issues later.

I can understand being cynical given how Microsoft has behaved, but give the company a chance; it announced the "commitment to Windows quality" plan in late March. And the very deepest changes might have to wait for Windows 12.

Mass firings might make us feel good, but they don't necessarily fix the underlying issues. I'd rather focus on corporate culture shifts (which may include replacing some people at the top) and teaching lessons to the rank-and-file.

Think of what happened at Apple in the 2010s, when MacBooks had all kinds of questionable design choices (butterfly keyboards, the Touch Bar, no ports beyond USB-C/Thunderbolt). Did Apple have to fire its whole design team? No; Jony Ive leaving didn't hurt, but the company also spent years rethinking its approach. Sometimes it's more about a gradual shift than expecting an abrupt about-face.
 
Aurelius said:
Mass firings might make us feel good, but they don't necessarily fix the underlying issues. I'd rather focus on corporate culture shifts (which may include replacing some people at the top) and teaching lessons to the rank-and-file.
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There's also investors. If you do mass firings, especially among high level VPs and executives, signaling an abrupt change in tactic then investors get nervous unless (at the moment) those firings are blamed on AI efficiencies. If Microsoft announced a cultural shift away from AI in everything and cutting services out of Windows you'd see a mass exodus of investors. That's not what they want to hear right now. Nobody running Microsoft would be running it long if they did what some people want. The board and shareholders would kick them to the curb very fast no matter how much a bunch of computer folks might like it.
 
Wat said:
Smartphones. Nobody is buying pc's to send emails and look at Facebook now.
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Yup. Phones and tablets. Unless you're running very specific local desktop software, you can do most anything on a "lesser" device. There are web versions of most everything and SaaS programs are the standard for most companies.
 
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Domingo said:
Yup. Phones and tablets. Unless you're running very specific local desktop software, you can do most anything on a "lesser" device. There are web versions of most everything and SaaS programs are the standard for most companies.
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For day to day, yes. But most people still occasionally need to print something, or do their taxes, or save documents someplace that isn't the cloud. While there are some ways to manage that without a PC it is still the easiest way to do it. I don't think it is going away anytime soon I just think that nobody is going to be purchasing anything fancy for their home. It'll just be cheap and simple for when the phone or tablet can't cut it. Eventually the tablets and phones will conquer all those other things as well but for now there is still a niche for the home PC in those areas.
 
Ididar said:
For day to day, yes. But most people still occasionally need to print something, or do their taxes, or save documents someplace that isn't the cloud. While there are some ways to manage that without a PC it is still the easiest way to do it. I don't think it is going away anytime soon I just think that nobody is going to be purchasing anything fancy for their home. It'll just be cheap and simple for when the phone or tablet can't cut it. Eventually the tablets and phones will conquer all those other things as well but for now there is still a niche for the home PC in those areas.
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Or else just really cheap laptops.
 
LodeRunner said:
All of Win11's requirements are paper requirements. See the IoT Enterprise version: it has none of the hardware checks that other W11 editions have, but is the same OS core and feature set. You just stick a PID file with a certain key in the sources folder of the W11 media and it's happy to install on pretty much anything that Vista ran on:

View attachment 800979
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IoT is also missing many of the features that other versions install by default.

The assumption being that it doesn’t need the same levels of operational security or feature sets because the local device is little more than a terminal or access gateway for something else.
 
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