dgingeri
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 2,830
Keep pestering them about it, Kyle. They'll break.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
First Rule of GPP: Don't Talk About GPP
It is. I was just illustrating that companies making demands of suppliers, retail, etc is as common in the business world as breathing air.
In my example you have an Auros AMD and an Auros Nvidia card. They're both Auros "brand", they have a huge bird logo over most of the box. Average Joe is going to see that and think they're the same thing. But they're very different. As a 1st tier brand this is a major issue that your product could be confused for a 2nd tier brand.
If you made a product, say a pencil sharpener, and it was all metal fancy pencil sharpener, etc and it was $20. Then some other guy made a pencil sharpener and he put it in a package that looked way too similar to yours and it was made of plastic and it was only $5. Average joe is going to think looking at the packaging that they're basically the same thing, but one is $15 cheaper so he'll get that one. Even though what he bought is of lesser quality. You'd be very unhappy about that. You wouldn't want your higher quality pencil sharpener associated to and confused with that one.
It's a basic marketing thing. You're trying to turn it into some AMD vs Nvidia thing. Nvidia wants their product to be obviously differentiated, so would any other company. If Nvidia wants to tell Gigabyte that they don't want their cards branded as Aorus if their AMD cards are branded exactly the same as Auros then that's entirely reasonable to create product differentiation.
dgingeri
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 2,830
Such statements disregard the intelligence factor. In most brands, and most markets, yes, you could get this confusion with some customers, and it would be a concern.
This isn't most markets.
The people buying this stuff are far more intelligent, otherwise they wouldn't be building their own PCs. Such confusion is not going to happen with us. The minimum intelligence level required to be shopping for these parts also precludes that those customers will get things confused because of a simple branding. We know what these things mean.
We DIY computer builders are above the level of the general public, more intelligent and more aware.
Armenius
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2014
- Messages
- 42,162
You need to step outside of your online tech echo chamber every once in a while.
dougdougdoug
n00b
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 15
I disagree with the "average joe" point. They are obviously not the same thing, the obnoxiously large branding on the chip used is very clearly defined. And this is something that both NV and AMD have direct control over, which is usage of their trademark logo's. Yes the GeForce 1080 TI is a branded logo, that has specific requirements for spacing, heights, etc... The average joe will be able to look at the two boxes you used as an example, and very easily be able to tell that there is something different about the two items being purchased. The other dead give away will be the price for a 1080 TI and a RX580, that alone is a huge signifier for different performance.
Now to your pencil reference, again it is being used incorrectly against what is happening with the GPP. This would work if it was only one company, who made two very similar pencil sharpeners that used different motors. The motors sourced would be from two different companies. If the pencil sharpeners are too closely branded, you will run into negative customer feedback and issues with "the first one I bought worked for 10 years, the second one worked for 10 days". Now, if the company made a line of sharpeners called "Pencil Decimater Series" and each one had similar features, but with different motors... you let reviews or price sway your decision.
I do agree that if I was Nvidia that I would also not want my cards being boxed in the same manner as AMD, however by designating it as "gaming lines" it forces AMD out of an entire market of branding that's reputation has already been built by each AIB. That to me is where this went wrong.
Computer translation can give odd results sometimes.
If Google Translate translates "Spieler" from German to English it will not suggest "gamer". However if you translate "gamer" from English to German then it will suggest "Spieler".
https://translate.google.com/#en/de/gamer
You dont look back far enough/at the larger picture. The 4000 and 5000 series were home runs knock-it-out-the-park good. The 6000 series was just plain old solidly good. At all but the top top end they had the best offerings, or being *harsh* equally as good as Nvidia offerings. There was like 2% in it by anyones measure. Hell the entire Nvidia 400 series was just a diesel powered cludge of large as ass dies sold at cut down prices to make the range sit up and work in that market. People still bought Nvidia. Lo and behold, a 3 streak winning run didn't get them to 50% market share. Only 1 reason really sticks, blind allegiance to Nvidia. That's the mindset, that's how the rump of the buying public are. My god man I know people that only buy Nvidia, you must know people like that and Im sure everyone here does to.
On a more general note I think what people plugging the morality in buying decisons line are saying is that if you cant get 95% of the nvidia performance for the same money with amd, then buy amd. Take a truly miniscule hit *now* to battle for a better market *tomorrow*. The dawn of an era of epic nvidia shenanigans is really here gentlemen. You buy nvidia for anything less than 1080ti performance and you are handing money to a guy for pushing a certain appendage into your certain waste chute.
This is the crypto distorted market so it's all a moot point anyway.
I really think you're overestimating the intelligence of the average PC builder / upgrader. This isn't the 80s anymore. In 2014 Intel said there are 711 million PC gamers. In 2016, the ESA said there are 1.2 billion PC gamers. While I think those numbers are likely heavily inflated, the point is it's bigger than ever and to assume no one is getting confused by this would be naive. Christ, I've had a vendor sell me the wrong card before because it's naming was similar to the card I was buying.
Plus, I can ASSURE you that intelligence in one area does not necessarily translate over into others. Yes, plenty of PC builders are smart, to assume they all are is a perfect example of what I was just talking about.
It IS an AMD vs Nvidia thing. If it was just separating branding then Nvidia wouldn't be trying to prevent AMD cards being sold under gaming brands. Nvidia isn't telling AIBs to make a new gaming brand for AMD, they're saying they want the AIB's gaming brand to be exclusively Nvidia.
dgingeri
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 2,830
Gamers does NOT equal DIY computer builders. I have 2 coworkers who build their own computers but don't game, and I know many people who game companies classify as "gamers" (I'm sorry, but I don't classify people who just play candy crush and minecraft as gamers, but the companies do) but don't build their own systems.
There are certainly gamers who couldn't handle this, but those 'gamers' would likely not be doing their own upgrades. There are NOT people who build their own systems who couldn't handle this.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,675
As much as I understand where Nvidia appears to be coming from with GPP as a business graduate myself, this is where I draw the line: AMD may very rarely be performance competitive, but they should be able to be sold as a gaming brand. I have no problem with Nvidia desiring separate sub-brands, but AIB's should have the choice of using existing gaming brands for AMD or Nvidia and choosing whether or not they want to establish a second brand for the other.
Almost makes more sense to get Nvidia to pay for a new 'gaming' sub-brand, if that were allowed.
motomonkey
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2009
- Messages
- 1,490
That’s Odd, I’ve been involved in this computer stuff a long time also, and I don’t ever recall it being any different than it is now. Lot of Shady crap went on in the 80’s and 90’s just like it does now, people still bought computers.
gtx780 was my last Nvidia GPU. Currently running a Vega rx64 Liquid Edition. Really happy with the card. I know 1080ti offers more performance for similar money, but I can report that the knowledge of supporting open standards and ethical consumer practices does feel good. Particularly when I read stories like these.
Last edited:
I dunno, this is when I switched to red GPUs, and have not owned a green card since.
I will never make a bad statement about the gaming performance of a current NV card, Pascal is a beast. Still not interested in giving them my money.
The idea that it takes high intelligence to build a computer or install a graphics card is laughable. So is the idea that it's only people who build computers that buy these things. Most people purchase them in prebuilt computers or have Geek Squad install them after they purchase them at Best Buy. Someone spent $2000 at the NCIX auction for GPU shrouds, let that sink in.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,675
Lol.
Well excuse me all to hell assuming it's mostly gamers buying videocards. Again, I've literally had a computer parts seller send me the wrong card because they got confused by the labeling (they told me as much in an email). So you're telling me what's already happened to me before cannot happen. Are you a Linux user perchance?
P.S. I've also seen a system builder force RAM in backwards and cause his motherboard to start smoking. You're overestimating the competency of builders.
Ocellaris
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 19,077
I think this whole thing is fine and makes sense from Nvidia’s perspective. If I start selling SlasherXXX Nvidia GPUs, they don’t want that SlasherXXX branding also used with AMD cards. Then when people search for SlasherXXX they only get Nvidia GPUs in the results. What’s wrong with that?
Absolutely a lot of shady crap went on then. I was referring to people voting with theior wallets to not support those caught in that shady crap.
Of course, no one should assume everyone fits the same paradigm. Hopefully, there will always be those who stand up and make their mark by taking a stand against companies who are not worthy of being supported, by thier own actions.
It just seems those numbers of people are dwindling. Then again, it could be there are more people willing to rationalize a decision then there used to be.
Nvidia isn't asking for their own brand. They are demanding not only exclusive use of AIB's top end gaming brand, meaning the same brand their best mice, keyboards, laptops, monitors, prebuilt PCs, motherboards, and graphics cards are under, but that only Nvidia be sold under any 'gaming brand'. You seriously don't see what's wrong with that?
Ocellaris
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 19,077
Alright I get it now, I wasn't seeing the big picture here with companies branding all of their best gear with a specific brand. I thought Nvidia wanted their own branding (unshared with other non-Nvidia products). Thanks for clearing it up.
It also means any laptops or prebuilts with AMD GPUs also can't be under the brands. This will probably exclude all Ryzen CPU laptops as well just because they will likely be APUs or CPU + AMD GPU. These companies may not even bother with making them since they can't advertise them under their brands.
Don't worry, I'm sure that's exactly how Nvidia PR people will try to spin it.
hordaktheman
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2004
- Messages
- 345
For all this talk of nvidia's anticompetitive practices, I really have to question why nobody ever mentions AMD's own scarcity when it comes to their GPUs. They have some of the most sought-after GPUs in history (due to mining) and Polaris GPUs are still nowhere to be found almost two years later. If they won't increase production then it's nobody's fault but their own.
It's easy enough to point fingers at nvidia but it often feels like they aren't even trying to stick with their end of the bargain. Most people won't wait three weeks for an AMD GPU when they can buy one from nvidia right over the counter. The consoles don't suffer from this supply-constraint which begs clearly the question where the problem lies.
It's easy enough to point fingers at nvidia but it often feels like they aren't even trying to stick with their end of the bargain. Most people won't wait three weeks for an AMD GPU when they can buy one from nvidia right over the counter. The consoles don't suffer from this supply-constraint which begs clearly the question where the problem lies.
That has nothing to do with this. Those GPUs are being bought regardless whether they are available to the average consumer or not. Financially, its a boon for AMD and their AIB partners.
Oh look, a 2 post shill.
Horseshit. All the cards are scarce. Not just AMDs offerings.
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
Nv want to be the ONLY player in town, they were like this from day 1, they will do whatever they possibly can to ensure as much revenue in their pocket PERIOD
business is business as the saying goes, but, this business should not come at the cost of killing everyone else, reducing quality of the component selection being used, not claiming fault when they are discovered, intentionally hampering others efforts to make yourself "appear" better than you actually are (insisting you do not do this and put on a big show and dance trying to prove it is not true")
I could go on and on, but, IMO this type of action that is GPP speaks highly of what Nvidia is, a giant dick that has lots of money to bully everyone around and if they do not allow themselves to be taking advantage of or want to be unbiased they will do whatever they can (legal or otherwise) to kick the crap out of them (products, revenue, support etc)
-------------------------------------------------------
------------------
They (Nvidia) do the minimum amount possible and profit on others hardwork shouting look at me look at me and if they are "caught" they just point at someone else to blame instead.
they may have done SOME things that have propelled graphics tech forward but only to capitalize in a $$$$$$ aspect, their chief competitor that is AMD (Radeon) a good chunk of what they have done, yes they make money on it but have also "given" stuff away for others to make better with not a direct $$$$$$$$ windfall, seems like everyone had to do all the hard work for Nv to "jump in the spotlight" to steal the thunder.
anyways, I personally think this is Nvidia's attempt to try to get as many possible sales while they still have a chance, because IMO AMD and Radeon in general have never NOT been competitive in one way or another, their raw performance has more or less always been +/- for many decades what Nvidia offers (very rare are there exceptions to this rule..Nvidia you pay more for less a complete product IMO that prioritize speed over quality) their power use, temperatures etc same thing, the quality of the final product (at least reference) IMO is superior on Radeon and at least for many generations of different cards both high end and low end I personally find the image quality on Radeon always was more "real" and less "gamey" a superior quality final image (without resorting to tactics to make others "worse")
using a base example (and yes completely different games) but say something like Borderlands vs Fallout, Borderlands to my tastes is "gamey" Fallout is more "real" looking, Nvidia Geforce shadows, lighting, fog, smoke, water etc have never at least to me appeared "natural" and more "artificial" "pseudo emulated"
so it could be if this is just not my eyes seeing it differently at least generation to generation why Geforce "appear" to run that much faster are simply not focusing on getting the best image quality they prioritize doing whatever possible to "hyperspeed" the image, someshit like that.
-------------------------------------------
--------------------------
Either way, with maybe some agreements between Nv and Intel or Nv and AMD that likely do exist, Nv I do not picture being "king forever" as folks like to make them appear, this GPP seems like a "get while the getting is good" the more they ensure exclusivity the longer they can ensure whatever sales will be made, will line their pockets no matter if it means it kills all possible innovation in the process (because at least as far as a PC environment there really is only 3 players, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, only 2 of them currently are "worth" having for graphics wise, AMD and Nvidia, if all the "major" OEM/AIB "sign up" for GPP or go against it, all potential innovation goes right out the window, why bother innovating when no one is left to compete.
nothing wrong with the "concept" of having allies to sell your product, but there is absolutely something wrong with making sure these same folks lose all potential access to the products if they even show a glimmer of wanting to source similar products from someone else as well, can be sure as shit if Nv "gets away with this" eventually it will turn into "you ONLY offer Geforce for graphics no one else, or you lose ALL allotment, services, rebates, sponsorship etc" basically, where does the buck stop? have they not already proven time and time again of their "honorable" nature (probably not best choice of word)
business is business as the saying goes, but, this business should not come at the cost of killing everyone else, reducing quality of the component selection being used, not claiming fault when they are discovered, intentionally hampering others efforts to make yourself "appear" better than you actually are (insisting you do not do this and put on a big show and dance trying to prove it is not true")
I could go on and on, but, IMO this type of action that is GPP speaks highly of what Nvidia is, a giant dick that has lots of money to bully everyone around and if they do not allow themselves to be taking advantage of or want to be unbiased they will do whatever they can (legal or otherwise) to kick the crap out of them (products, revenue, support etc)
-------------------------------------------------------
------------------
They (Nvidia) do the minimum amount possible and profit on others hardwork shouting look at me look at me and if they are "caught" they just point at someone else to blame instead.
they may have done SOME things that have propelled graphics tech forward but only to capitalize in a $$$$$$ aspect, their chief competitor that is AMD (Radeon) a good chunk of what they have done, yes they make money on it but have also "given" stuff away for others to make better with not a direct $$$$$$$$ windfall, seems like everyone had to do all the hard work for Nv to "jump in the spotlight" to steal the thunder.
anyways, I personally think this is Nvidia's attempt to try to get as many possible sales while they still have a chance, because IMO AMD and Radeon in general have never NOT been competitive in one way or another, their raw performance has more or less always been +/- for many decades what Nvidia offers (very rare are there exceptions to this rule..Nvidia you pay more for less a complete product IMO that prioritize speed over quality) their power use, temperatures etc same thing, the quality of the final product (at least reference) IMO is superior on Radeon and at least for many generations of different cards both high end and low end I personally find the image quality on Radeon always was more "real" and less "gamey" a superior quality final image (without resorting to tactics to make others "worse")
using a base example (and yes completely different games) but say something like Borderlands vs Fallout, Borderlands to my tastes is "gamey" Fallout is more "real" looking, Nvidia Geforce shadows, lighting, fog, smoke, water etc have never at least to me appeared "natural" and more "artificial" "pseudo emulated"
so it could be if this is just not my eyes seeing it differently at least generation to generation why Geforce "appear" to run that much faster are simply not focusing on getting the best image quality they prioritize doing whatever possible to "hyperspeed" the image, someshit like that.
-------------------------------------------
--------------------------
Either way, with maybe some agreements between Nv and Intel or Nv and AMD that likely do exist, Nv I do not picture being "king forever" as folks like to make them appear, this GPP seems like a "get while the getting is good" the more they ensure exclusivity the longer they can ensure whatever sales will be made, will line their pockets no matter if it means it kills all possible innovation in the process (because at least as far as a PC environment there really is only 3 players, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, only 2 of them currently are "worth" having for graphics wise, AMD and Nvidia, if all the "major" OEM/AIB "sign up" for GPP or go against it, all potential innovation goes right out the window, why bother innovating when no one is left to compete.
nothing wrong with the "concept" of having allies to sell your product, but there is absolutely something wrong with making sure these same folks lose all potential access to the products if they even show a glimmer of wanting to source similar products from someone else as well, can be sure as shit if Nv "gets away with this" eventually it will turn into "you ONLY offer Geforce for graphics no one else, or you lose ALL allotment, services, rebates, sponsorship etc" basically, where does the buck stop? have they not already proven time and time again of their "honorable" nature (probably not best choice of word)
hordaktheman
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2004
- Messages
- 345
Great argument. It does nothing to address what I wrote.
I've been on these forums longer than you have. I lost my old account because my ISP shut down.
And, no, they're not all scarce. I just looked up the stock in my local stores and every one of them has 1070/1080/1080Ti cards in stock. Not a single one of them has Polaris cards.
Last edited by a moderator:
What does any of that have to do with GPP?
By the way: The supply problems are due to memory constraints. Its hitting Nvidia and AMD equally. Consoles have had problems, specifically the Switch suffered problems getting parts last year. The other two probably have a pretty big supply of various parts and neither is exactly hit by the same kind of speculator/scalper craze as GPUs. Also, consoles use APUs they don't use dedicated GPUs. AMD is not having any problem supplying APUs to retail.
Okay (adjusting my tin foil hat) here is what I do not understand.
This move seems to fall squarely into the "unfair trade practice" area of the law. NVidia knows that. So, are they simply being arrogant, or is there something else in the background we are not being made aware of?
This move seems to fall squarely into the "unfair trade practice" area of the law. NVidia knows that. So, are they simply being arrogant, or is there something else in the background we are not being made aware of?
hordaktheman
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2004
- Messages
- 345
Switch is still relatively new. Nintendo likely had no idea that they would grow so popular and the supply constraints have largely disappeared by now. PS4/Xbox One have been easy to find since the initial launch period and the same is true of both PS4 Pro and One X.
The lack of Polaris GPUs is a whole different ballgame. These are almost two year old GPUs at this point and no GPU has ever been this supply constrained so late in its lifetime.
You could say the same about every Nvidia card too. Everything is 1-2 years old and near impossible to find as well. Still not sure what this has to do with GPP though.
There will most likely be a legal action taken as a result of this. But even if they win the case, by the time the case is over the damage will have been done. Look at the example with Intel and AMD. Intel was clearly found in the wrong on multiple continents. But it wasn't until 2009 that they had to pay the fine for something they did in 2003. In fact in Europe they are still contesting the fine, 15 years later. In the meantime AMD was starved of revenues and suffered set backs and we had no competition in the CPU space for a good part of the last decade.
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
last I remember hearing, they still have not "officially" paid AMD off either, rather they "moved on" and have been off and on less foolish against them comparatively speaking when all the crap was going down (if not the current potential CTS labs stuff if they do or do not have a part in this) heck they even bought Radeon to directly put on some of their products.
In many cases Intel got away "scot free" and still do in some countries that do not recognize anti competition/monopolistic tactics like EU or NA do.
that really is the simple truth, any damage done, when it can be counted in market % points of swing is untold billions of potential $ that can truly make or break a company (or at least as the market has seen kept a company on its deathbed for a very long time just able to say afloat by the skin of their teeth and perseverance...AMD..)
While they absolutely have/had some top talent or they would have been dead and buried many years ago, how many times does the axe come falling before the head finally loses its neck, and should the neck be chopped away from the head, all this little bit of competition that we "enjoy" that kind of keeps competition in check will truly be gone because no one else will be allowed to compete due to patents etc...woh be the day should it only be Intel and Nvidia, or Intel and AMD or just one of them for the PC landscape as we know it.
if the maker has to shutter its doors because of a thousand knife cuts no one can "force" competition, it is up to the market as well as consumers to make sure this is not allowed to be permitted, the one power we still have, our wallets, because our opinions mean jack shit when it comes to the "big boys" no matter the industry, very very few of them do what is right just and good, "big business" very much is a cancer and if allowed to spread it will kill the host, take that how you will
^.^
The AIBs should be worried about legal action against them. They can complain that they were extorted into it, but that won't really matter. If what Nvidia is doing to AMD is illegal, they are being complicit in the actions, much as Gateway and Dell were responsible for being complicit with Intel's shenanigans. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but maybe they should consider not going along with anything that's potentially illegal.
Also note that in the PCWorld Interview, Kyle said that also desktops, notebooks, SFF PCs and monitors were included in the scope of the GPP (between 0:12:00 and 0:12:30).
Haha, n00b. This is when I switched to anything but NVidia:
Full story (in German) at 3DCenter. This didn't get much attention in the international press though, I wonder why.
And NVidia has proven on multiple occasions that they haven't really changed in all those years.
They have actually paid $1 or $1.2B (in damages to AMD).. can't remember the exact figure now. But you can look it up in AMD's 2009 Earning Reports. It's there fair and square.
However, it was a drop in a bucket compared to what AMD could have made and could have done reinvesting that money into R&D in 2004 and onwards... AMD had to spin off their fabs prior to getting that payment as well in order to survive.
It is clear that AMD was hurt by the anti competitive practices Nvidia is attempting right now. In the end we the consumers are the biggest losers, or anyone who's had to buy an overpriced Intel dual core or quad core in recent years.
KedsDead
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2016
- Messages
- 128
There is.. It is the money they are taking away for not being a member of GPP.
Until they cut this crap out, I've purchased my last NVidia GPU (and yes, I realize that means very little right now, but current GPU market conditions won't last forever).
I guess my next computer will be Ryzen/Radeon. I'll just have to live with the crap drivers.
I guess my next computer will be Ryzen/Radeon. I'll just have to live with the crap drivers.