Why Sweden Is Shifting To A 6-Hour Workday

I think the issue also is that people see a 6 hour, 7 hour 8 hour work day and assume that person is working 100% solid for those allotted hours.

Very very few people work solid like a machine for their entire workday. I would say most office workers probably work 60% tops, especially with the increased distractions they have nowadays. So but cutting the work hours you are most likely just cutting out wasted time. Which I'm pretty sure the analysts have worked out.

If you say you work 100% all hours then I'd say you were either a fantasist or a liar.
 
jtm55 said:
If you're working to the exclusion of your family, your marriage, other relationships, and your life is out of balance, or your physical health is out of balance.When work takes an exclusive priority to everything else, that's the more extreme end of the spectrum where it becomes a problem,
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Have no family or marriage to worry about. Although what you say is very much true.

Personally I screw around with work stuff off the clock when doing stuff such as watching tv or a movie. So I don't lose out on anything with the way I handle my workaholicism.
 
daglesj said:
I think the issue also is that people see a 6 hour, 7 hour 8 hour work day and assume that person is working 100% solid for those allotted hours.

Very very few people work solid like a machine for their entire workday. I would say most office workers probably work 60% tops, especially with the increased distractions they have nowadays. So but cutting the work hours you are most likely just cutting out wasted time. Which I'm pretty sure the analysts have worked out.

If you say you work 100% all hours then I'd say you were either a fantasist or a liar.
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I am salaried. I work five, ten hour shifts plus im on call every 5 weeks. Very very rarely am i productive the entire shift, there has been some days where it was non stop ... and those days made me want to put a gun in my mouth (kidding aside) i think a 6 hour work day sounds amazing. I am strongly considering looking for a new job that allows me to work fewer hours.
 
This is typical of entitled socialists. People want the wealth but don't want to take the risk or work for it.

CEOs work non stop, as well as most executives at major corporations. If it is not for you then great, but getting butthurt that they won't pay you $100K a year to work 30 hours a week to build widgets makes you look entitled, lazy, and butthurt.
 
I'll take either 6 hour days or 10 hour days. To be honest, on a good day I probably work about 4 hours. Most of the week I spend maybe 1-2 hours doing work and some days I don't do anything at all. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone as I am an IT office worker but I have always gone by the saying "Work smarter not harder".
 
XvMMvX said:
Wow so much ignorance in this thread. Typical [H] in that it is the big bad CEOs and wall street.

Also, this thread is full of lolpoors.

Lastly you are doing it wrong. What people fail to realize is to move up and get the mans money you have to actually produce for the man. Not build widgets that JR on the street can do tomorrow if you quit.

Full time salaried employee with an "actual" work day of M-F 8-5. When in actuality I probably work 35. I golf, drink, go to sports game, etc with clients. I close deals and get my shit done and not one cares. I have a phone and remote access if someone really needs me on a Friday afternoon at 4pm if I decided to jet.

The irony of this website is the hatred for the American capital system typed from everything made in China.
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No. I'm sorry, but you - sir - are the ignorant one here.

I am glad that you have succeeded in carving out a tolerable existence for yourself, but suggesting that this is achievable by anyone in the U.S. is pure ignorance of epic proportions. In every single measure of social mobility (the measure of a person's ability to change their life and become successful) the U.S. ranks as the worst in the industrialized world. Land of opportunity, my ass.

And Lolpoors? Really? I'm sorry, but you might just be the biggest ass I've encountered on these forums yet, and that says a lot.

You are where you are, yes, in part because of your own choices or your own work, but in much larger part because of pure dumb unadulterated luck. Study after study has shown that success is related not to hard work, not to smart work, but lucking out and being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right person to get that assignment that furthers your career.

Luck and connections. That is 90% of success.

It's also funny, because psychological studies - made famous by this TED talk - show that those who do have the luck and the connections, then turn around and convince themselves that they ahve what they have because they are so great, and what is wrong with everyone else. Essentially, the more successful you are, - on average - the more of an asshole you become, and then you are more likely to use such terms as "lolpoors".

The truth is undeniable, the data does not lie. When adjusted for inflation, the median household takes home less today - with two working adults - than it historically did with one working adult, and the primary reason is the privileged wealthy classes bending, breaking and paying to have the rules changed in their favor, having the effect of destroying the middle class. Things have gotten worse and worse starting approximately in the 70's.

In the 70's the top marginal tax bracket was 70%. Top Wallstreet bank CEO's made - adjusted for inflation - approximately $500k a year in total compensation, the tax rate was the same for income and capital gains, Social security had a wage base, but fewer people were above it, and the Glass Steagall act was still in full effect.

It is imperative that we end the abuse of the middle class and return to the rules and laws of the 1970's. In fact, we can do better. Completely eliminate the Social Security wage base cap, return the top marginal tax rate to 50's/early 60's levels of 90%, regulate Wall street above and beyond Glass-Steagall, enact a true single payer healthcare system, make sure the original intent of FLSA is in effect, where no one who is not an executive is classified as "exempt", make several months of paid maternity AND paternity leave the law, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is, this is in the interest of all Americans, because if we don't, the destruction of the middle class will turn us into Brazil, or worse Crime ridden, corrupt, with a super wealth class, and everyone else, and we might just have a revolution on our hands.

Right now, we have the power to preempt that revolution, by doing the right thing.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041894817 said:
No. I'm sorry, but you - sir - are the ignorant one here.

I am glad that you have succeeded in carving out a tolerable existence for yourself, but suggesting that this is achievable by anyone in the U.S. is pure ignorance of epic proportions. In every single measure of social mobility (the measure of a person's ability to change their life and become successful) the U.S. ranks as the worst in the industrialized world. Land of opportunity, my ass.

And Lolpoors? Really? I'm sorry, but you might just be the biggest ass I've encountered on these forums yet, and that says a lot.

You are where you are, yes, in part because of your own choices or your own work, but in much larger part because of pure dumb unadulterated luck. Study after study has shown that success is related not to hard work, not to smart work, but lucking out and being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right person to get that assignment that furthers your career.

Luck and connections. That is 90% of success.

It's also funny, because psychological studies - made famous by this TED talk - show that those who do have the luck and the connections, then turn around and convince themselves that they ahve what they have because they are so great, and what is wrong with everyone else. Essentially, the more successful you are, - on average - the more of an asshole you become, and then you are more likely to use such terms as "lolpoors".

The truth is undeniable, the data does not lie. When adjusted for inflation, the median household takes home less today - with two working adults - than it historically did with one working adult, and the primary reason is the privileged wealthy classes bending, breaking and paying to have the rules changed in their favor, having the effect of destroying the middle class. Things have gotten worse and worse starting approximately in the 70's.

In the 70's the top marginal tax bracket was 70%. Top Wallstreet bank CEO's made - adjusted for inflation - approximately $500k a year in total compensation, the tax rate was the same for income and capital gains, Social security had a wage base, but fewer people were above it, and the Glass Steagall act was still in full effect.

It is imperative that we end the abuse of the middle class and return to the rules and laws of the 1970's. In fact, we can do better. Completely eliminate the Social Security wage base cap, return the top marginal tax rate to 50's/early 60's levels of 90%, regulate Wall street above and beyond Glass-Steagall, enact a true single payer healthcare system, make sure the original intent of FLSA is in effect, where no one who is not an executive is classified as "exempt", make several months of paid maternity AND paternity leave the law, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is, this is in the interest of all Americans, because if we don't, the destruction of the middle class will turn us into Brazil, or worse Crime ridden, corrupt, with a super wealth class, and everyone else, and we might just have a revolution on our hands.

Right now, we have the power to preempt that revolution, by doing the right thing.
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Hoe Lee Sheet...

For the love of God please pack your crap and get out of this country. It was pure dumb luck I paid for college, took a menial job and proved myself, got my certifications needed, and proved time and time again I was valuable to the company?

I have watched many squander opportunity after opportunity but I guess that is just bad luck?

90% tax rate? Yeah that shows your ignorance, NO ONE paid that when it was on the books, tons of write offs.

Your post and you yourself drip with jealous socialist butthurt of epic proportions. Companies are fleeing the blue states for better structured red states at an alarming rate. You want the government to tell them they can't? Or just own everything. Feel free to move to China.
 
daglesj said:
Give a man a day to do a days work and he will take all day.

Tell him he can go home as soon as that day's work is done and he'll be gone by lunchtime.
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That was my mentality when I worked for NASA, I had a remote job where I did programming/coding simulations, once a week I had a meeting, I was told what my plan was for the week, I usually got that done in 3-5 hours at home, they paid me for working a 40 hour work week. Good times.

Also called the Scotty Principle, you tell your boss (captain) how long it would take, and then do it in less time to seem like a miracle worker!
 
XvMMvX said:
Your post and you yourself drip with jealous socialist butthurt of epic proportions. Companies are fleeing the blue states for better structured red states at an alarming rate. You want the government to tell them they can't? Or just own everything. Feel free to move to China.
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Better structured? You mean, they pay them to come there and rip up any laws the company doesn't like.

That isn't structure, that's dropping your pants and asking them to have at it.
 
XvMMvX said:
Hoe Lee Sheet...

For the love of God please pack your crap and get out of this country.
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It's no more your country than it is mine. If you want to live in the banana republic our country is turning into, I suggest maybe you move to Brazil?

XvMMvX said:
It was pure dumb luck I paid for college, took a menial job and proved myself, got my certifications needed, and proved time and time again I was valuable to the company?

I have watched many squander opportunity after opportunity but I guess that is just bad luck?
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No, the luck is involved with getting the opportunity in the first place, at a time in your life when you are able to take advantage of it.

Even being in the position to go to college at all is a matter of luck of being born in a family where education is valued, studies are supported in pursuit of going to college, and life isn't constantly interrupted by violence and instability, and there is no pressure to drop out and get a job to help support the family. More than half of Americans are never afforded this opportunity simply because of whom they are born to.

I was very lucky to be born into a family like this, where it was presumed I was going to college from the get go, and I had parents who both had time and the motivation to whip my ass into shape, force me to do my homework (because what 8-12 year old boy wants to do homework?) be involved in school and with my teachers, etc. etc.

Having the luck as a fresh out of school employee to randomly been given a chance to take on a project in which one learns and can prove oneself, instead of being in a work environment where someone more seasoned, or another peer took that same opportunity.

I can point to many such points in my career, where the luck of the draw put me in a position to learn, build a skill set my peers didn't have and put me in a more advantageous position.

Does this mean I didn't work hard or smart? Absolutely not, but I could have worked just as hard and just as smart and not been fortunate enough to have - by chance - had these opportunities fall into my lap.

I don't know the details of your life, but I believe - if you were objective about it - you could probably point to these times in your life as well, but maybe you are just too blinded by the need to justify your selfish political beliefs, and by [uel=https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean/]this known and proven psychological effect I linked above[/url] to allow yourself to notice. Everyone has these moments that make all the difference, and are completely by chance.

XvMMvX said:
90% tax rate? Yeah that shows your ignorance, NO ONE paid that when it was on the books, tons of write offs.
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I suspect someone doesn't understand how marginal tax brackets work...


XvMMvX said:
Your post and you yourself drip with jealous socialist butthurt of epic proportions. Companies are fleeing the blue states for better structured red states at an alarming rate. You want the government to tell them they can't? Or just own everything. Feel free to move to China.
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Lol. Companies running for places where they can abuse a workforce more, by making them work longer hours and paying them less? There's a big surprise.

And right there we have the number one proof that Reaganism and trickle down economics doesn't work, and never has worked. With few exceptions, so called "Red states" (which is an amusing choice of color, considering red - everywhere else in the world - is the color of the far left) have the highest rates of poverty, and blue states have the lowest. (It's also an interesting note that the Red states are by and large the "taker" states, receiving more in federal funding than they remit in federal taxes, and the blue states are by and large the "maker" states, receiving less federal funding than they pay in federal taxation)

As far as my own jealousy goes, I don't really have much to be jealous about. I'm not super wealthy, but I'm 10-15 years into an Engineering career and I have done OK for myself. I just feel very strongly that everyone should have the same chances that I have had, and no one should ever have to worry about having a roof over their heads, or where their next meal is coming from, especially not in the worlds richest nation. That no one should have to choose between going to the doctor and paying their mortgage. If that is socialist, then sure. Call me a socialist.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041895057 said:
It's no more your country than it is mine. If you want to live in the banana republic our country is turning into, I suggest maybe you move to Brazil?



No, the luck is involved with getting the opportunity in the first place, at a time in your life when you are able to take advantage of it.

Even being in the position to go to college at all is a matter of luck of being born in a family where education is valued, studies are supported in pursuit of going to college, and life isn't constantly interrupted by violence and instability, and there is no pressure to drop out and get a job to help support the family. More than half of Americans are never afforded this opportunity simply because of whom they are born to.

I was very lucky to be born into a family like this, where it was presumed I was going to college from the get go, and I had parents who both had time and the motivation to whip my ass into shape, force me to do my homework (because what 8-12 year old boy wants to do homework?) be involved in school and with my teachers, etc. etc.

Having the luck as a fresh out of school employee to randomly been given a chance to take on a project in which one learns and can prove oneself, instead of being in a work environment where someone more seasoned, or another peer took that same opportunity.

I can point to many such points in my career, where the luck of the draw put me in a position to learn, build a skill set my peers didn't have and put me in a more advantageous position.

Does this mean I didn't work hard or smart? Absolutely not, but I could have worked just as hard and just as smart and not been fortunate enough to have - by chance - had these opportunities fall into my lap.

I don't know the details of your life, but I believe - if you were objective about it - you could probably point to these times in your life as well, but maybe you are just too blinded by the need to justify your selfish political beliefs, and by [uel=https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean/]this known and proven psychological effect I linked above[/url] to allow yourself to notice. Everyone has these moments that make all the difference, and are completely by chance.



I suspect someone doesn't understand how marginal tax brackets work...




Lol. Companies running for places where they can abuse a workforce more, by making them work longer hours and paying them less? There's a big surprise.

And right there we have the number one proof that Reaganism and trickle down economics doesn't work, and never has worked. With few exceptions, so called "Red states" (which is an amusing choice of color, considering red - everywhere else in the world - is the color of the far left) have the highest rates of poverty, and blue states have the lowest. (It's also an interesting note that the Red states are by and large the "taker" states, receiving more in federal funding than they remit in federal taxes, and the blue states are by and large the "maker" states, receiving less federal funding than they pay in federal taxation)

As far as my own jealousy goes, I don't really have much to be jealous about. I'm not super wealthy, but I'm 10-15 years into an Engineering career and I have done OK for myself. I just feel very strongly that everyone should have the same chances that I have had, and no one should ever have to worry about having a roof over their heads, or where their next meal is coming from, especially not in the worlds richest nation. That no one should have to choose between going to the doctor and paying their mortgage. If that is socialist, then sure. Call me a socialist.
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I don't have to choose going to the doctor or paying the mortgage because I have worked to put myself into a position not to.

Frankly maybe successful people are assholes because people keep telling them they are just lucky and should give their hard earned money to someone else.

The possibilities are endless for anyone that wants them, you are full of shit. You know how many businesses owners stories start with "I had a truck and $100". Fuck, the government willing to guarantee a loan for a degree in women's studies if someone wants it. Though then they wonder why they are broke and cry to daddy government to "forgive" their loan.

Lucky to get opportunities, yeah so "lucky" that I packed my shit and left for college. Then used the resources there that I was paying for to go to career fairs/networking events to meet people I didn't even know. I guess they just drew my resume out of the hat, couldn't be that I sold myself in an interview.

It is basic human nature, no matter what statistics you lick up you can't change that some people will work hard to earn money and succeed. Most will not, they will just sit around and cry like you.
 
XvMMvX said:
I don't have to choose going to the doctor or paying the mortgage because I have worked to put myself into a position not to.

Frankly maybe successful people are assholes because people keep telling them they are just lucky and should give their hard earned money to someone else.

The possibilities are endless for anyone that wants them, you are full of shit. You know how many businesses owners stories start with "I had a truck and $100". Fuck, the government willing to guarantee a loan for a degree in women's studies if someone wants it. Though then they wonder why they are broke and cry to daddy government to "forgive" their loan.

Lucky to get opportunities, yeah so "lucky" that I packed my shit and left for college. Then used the resources there that I was paying for to go to career fairs/networking events to meet people I didn't even know. I guess they just drew my resume out of the hat, couldn't be that I sold myself in an interview.

It is basic human nature, no matter what statistics you lick up you can't change that some people will work hard to earn money and succeed. Most will not, they will just sit around and cry like you.
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I have already told you, I do pretty OK.

You - however - could use a dose of humility.

There is no such thing as a self made man. There never has been in all of human history. We are all benefactors of the people around us.

Some of us, like you and I, are lucky to have found ourselves in positions with the right people, be they our parents, teachers, bosses, colleagues, etc in our lives. Other have not been as fortunate.

You are right, it takes work to succeed, and if you are unwilling to do that work you won't succeed. It ALSO takes a good amount of luck, being born to the right family is a big one of those, but there are many, many others.

The truth is that you are wrong. By and large when people are not successful, it is not because they are lazy or incompetent. Some of the working poor I have met are the hardest working people I know, working three jobs and still struggling. It's simply that they did not have the opportunities that you or I have had in our lives.

You know the expression, "There but for the grace of God go I".

The myth of the lazy poor, is just that, a myth, created by people who are selfish and take their own fortune for granted, as an excuse to not worry about the plight of the less fortunate.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041895393 said:
I have already told you, I do pretty OK.

You - however - could use a dose of humility.

There is no such thing as a self made man. There never has been in all of human history. We are all benefactors of the people around us.

Some of us, like you and I, are lucky to have found ourselves in positions with the right people, be they our parents, teachers, bosses, colleagues, etc in our lives. Other have not been as fortunate.

You are right, it takes work to succeed, and if you are unwilling to do that work you won't succeed. It ALSO takes a good amount of luck, being born to the right family is a big one of those, but there are many, many others.

The truth is that you are wrong. By and large when people are not successful, it is not because they are lazy or incompetent. Some of the working poor I have met are the hardest working people I know, working three jobs and still struggling. It's simply that they did not have the opportunities that you or I have had in our lives.

You know the expression, "There but for the grace of God go I".

The myth of the lazy poor, is just that, a myth, created by people who are selfish and take their own fortune for granted, as an excuse to not worry about the plight of the less fortunate.
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You and your kind are the purest sort of evil.
 
Smashing Young Man said:
You and your kind are the purest sort of evil.
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That has got to be one of the shortest, most self-righteous and most half-assed comment I've read.

Not that you cared to debunk a single thing he posted ... but shrieked back into a corner because somehow you felt threatened.

You need to pry your head out of your rear before you post such horsecrap.
 
I wouldn't mind dropping down to part time considering the current state of Walmart's backroom inventory system which isn't working at all.....
 
aShrubbery! said:
That has got to be one of the shortest, most self-righteous and most half-assed comment I've read.

Not that you cared to debunk a single thing he posted ... but shrieked back into a corner because somehow you felt threatened.

You need to pry your head out of your rear before you post such horsecrap.
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I stand by what I said. I've spent years getting into protracted online debates with his sort, and it's a waste of everyone's time (rather apropos to the thread's subject, actually.) These days I prefer to keep my comments as pithy as possible: just the distilled essence of my thoughts on the person or subject.
 
aShrubbery! said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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This is why you will never get yourself into such a position. What he said is true...executives shoulder much larger responsibilities, work longer hours, and have to make decisions that can either ensure success for the company or bring on it's downfall. Are there exceptions that abuse the system and somehow make out well? You bet your ass there are. But they are just that, exceptions to the rule.

Hell, in my company 3 VPs were just fired because a seemingly minor decision they made 4 months ago ended up being initially a $42 million mistake (mostly wasted man-hours) that set our project back more than a year and puts the entire contract in jeopardy (therefore opening up our firm to some more serious cash loss). Total potential direct liability is close to half a billion dollars if they cancel this development program. I'd be looking for a new job, along with everyone else I work with (Which sucks more than normal because the company culture is awesome). That's what executives have to deal with. You can't replace good executive leadership, and successful companies have plenty of that.
 
XvMMvX said:
It is basic human nature, no matter what statistics you lick up
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Oh, and I couldn't let this gem slip by.

Statistics is EVERYTHING in this argument.

If you don't have actual data (and I am not talking anecdotal evidence here) to back up your argument, you don't have an argument at all.

It might be a theory, but without the data to prove it you can repeat it as many times as you want, it still doesn't make it true.

Either cite real solid broad statistical data, that you think proves you are right, or concede that you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about.

Data is everything. It is what knowledge is based on, and it decides what is true and what is false. To disregard data is to disregard reason itself...


Which brings me to your political world view, much of which appears to be based on a mix of Austrian school of economics combined arrogance and overestimation of self worth.

The truth is, the Austrian school shuns metrics. It is why very few reputable economists stick by it anymore. Keynesian theories can be proven beyond reasonable doubt using massive volumes of data. The Austrian school - however - barely reaches the level of theory. They claim their theories can't be measured, and when they are measured are generally proven to be wrong.

Never trust anyone who proposes theories without a solid foundation of empirical evidence. Empirical evidence is everything.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041896728 said:
Oh, and I couldn't let this gem slip by.

Statistics is EVERYTHING in this argument.

If you don't have actual data (and I am not talking anecdotal evidence here) to back up your argument, you don't have an argument at all.

It might be a theory, but without the data to prove it you can repeat it as many times as you want, it still doesn't make it true.

Either cite real solid broad statistical data, that you think proves you are right, or concede that you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about.

Data is everything. It is what knowledge is based on, and it decides what is true and what is false. To disregard data is to disregard reason itself...


Which brings me to your political world view, much of which appears to be based on a mix of Austrian school of economics combined arrogance and overestimation of self worth.

The truth is, the Austrian school shuns metrics. It is why very few reputable economists stick by it anymore. Keynesian theories can be proven beyond reasonable doubt using massive volumes of data. The Austrian school - however - barely reaches the level of theory. They claim their theories can't be measured, and when they are measured are generally proven to be wrong.

Never trust anyone who proposes theories without a solid foundation of empirical evidence. Empirical evidence is everything.
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Socialism has NEVER worked in the history of mankind. It eventually collapses on itself. It begins with ignorant people like you demonizing hard working successful people who built careers, then in turn provided a better life for their children and so on.

The ignorance of the risks and costs it takes to start a business and grow it is laughable. Sweating out payroll every two weeks, am I going to have enough cash to complete this project so I can get paid, etc.

Not to mention the immigrates who come here (Legally) to work in our country because you can make something from nothing if you work hard.

http://www.businessinsider.com/came-to-america-with-nothing-and-made-a-fortune-2012-1?op=1
 
XvMMvX said:
Socialism has NEVER worked in the history of mankind.
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Once again Socialism or Communism?

The Capitalist system is the one to go for. However, the current version of Capitalism we are running is the wrong one.

The version we have been pushed into, is whereby only the guy at the top expects to make any money. Eventually that system will collapse in on itself too as the folks underneath either walk away, revolt or die from starvation.

For Capitalism to thrive EVERYONE has to be able to take a bite of the pie. Currently that isn't the case.
 
daglesj said:
For Capitalism to thrive EVERYONE has to be able to take a bite of the pie. Currently that isn't the case.
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Everybody has to be willing to work and EARN a bite of pie ... one of the problems we have is that there are too many people who do not wish to work for a living or feel that that their jobs are worth much more than the market rate ... you are right however that we need to ensure that there are fewer obstacles to prevent a person with a new or creative idea from succeeding
 
XvMMvX said:
Socialism has NEVER worked in the history of mankind. It eventually collapses on itself.
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You are thinking of soviet style planned economies. The lack of incentive in these systems does slow their innovation and economic development down significantly. In the case of the Soviet union, the planned economy led to a poorly diversified economy and over reliance on oil as a source of revenue. The crash in oil prices in the late 80's and early 90's eventually made it all come apart.

Socialism on the other hand, at least as it has been applied by the western world, IS Capitalism. It's just Capitalism with certain rules and requirements to make sure that the pursuit of the all-mighty profit doesn't hurt the vulnerable.

Some of the most equitable and forward thinking socialist countries in the world are those in Scandinavia, Like Sweden, where this article started, which has done VERY well in this economic climate where others have been floundering.

It is unfettered capitalism, not socialism that invariably leads to disaster. When capitalism is completely unfettered, you wind up with a tiny super-wealthy minority, poor masses, and violent boom and bust cycles, like in the long depression of the 1870's, the great depression of the 1930's and more recently our great recession.

XvMMvX said:
It begins with ignorant people like you demonizing hard working successful people who built careers, then in turn provided a better life for their children and so on.
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No one is demonizing hard working successful people. I Have - however - demonized those hard working and successful people who are arrogant enough to think it is all of their own doing and use that as an excuse to be blind to the suffering of others.

XvMMvX said:
The ignorance of the risks and costs it takes to start a business and grow it is laughable. Sweating out payroll every two weeks, am I going to have enough cash to complete this project so I can get paid, etc.
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No one has claimed starting a new business is easy. That is why the overwhelming majority of them fail. When they succeed - however - yes, hard work is part of the reason they were successful, but so is good old fashioned dumb luck, of being in an industry in a place and time where that hard work can pay off and turn into something bigger, and it doesn't just fail.

XvMMvX said:
Not to mention the immigrates who come here (Legally) to work in our country because you can make something from nothing if you work hard.

http://www.businessinsider.com/came-to-america-with-nothing-and-made-a-fortune-2012-1?op=1
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There are those who work hard and are successful. There are also those who work hard and fail. Neither hard work nor even smart work guarantee success.

Out of the 14 million immigrants which the article states immigrated in the last decade, it shouldn't be a surprise that you can find 13 success stories. That's not very many. (In fact, it's less than one in a million :p ) It is most definitely cherry picking the data. That experience is far from typical.

It may have been that once upon the time, the United States truly was the "Land of Opportunity" compared to other nations. That I don't know for sure, but what is true is that this has not been the case in the last few generations.

The ability to be able to "pull oneself up by ones boot straps" is referred to as social mobility, and is measured by how strong a correlation there is - overall in a country - between the earnings of people and the earnings of their parents. The higher the correlation, the worse the social mobility.

As we can see, the U.S. fares worse than all but four OECD countries in this regard.

Who is leading that chart?

Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Austria and Sweden. Those pesky "socialist" countries you love to hate so much. These are apparently the lands of opportunity, where someone of humble background can really put in hard work and make something out of themselves.

They should change the "Only in America" song, to "Only in Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Austria and Sweden" :p
 
daglesj said:
Once again Socialism or Communism?

The Capitalist system is the one to go for. However, the current version of Capitalism we are running is the wrong one.

The version we have been pushed into, is whereby only the guy at the top expects to make any money. Eventually that system will collapse in on itself too as the folks underneath either walk away, revolt or die from starvation.

For Capitalism to thrive EVERYONE has to be able to take a bite of the pie. Currently that isn't the case.
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It doesn't really matter which. The problem with the argument is that historically, no system has ever worked over a long period of time. It doesn't matter if it's socialism, communism, capitalism, etc. Given enough time, sooner or later, any system fails.

It's just human nature. People are inherently selfish and greedy, and will ruin any good thing until the masses revolt to overthrow those in power, with optimism towards the future, until a new generation of selfish and greedy people destroy the new current system, and the process will repeat itself.
 
Nytegard said:
It doesn't really matter which. The problem with the argument is that historically, no system has ever worked over a long period of time. It doesn't matter if it's socialism, communism, capitalism, etc. Given enough time, sooner or later, any system fails.

It's just human nature. People are inherently selfish and greedy, and will ruin any good thing until the masses revolt to overthrow those in power, with optimism towards the future, until a new generation of selfish and greedy people destroy the new current system, and the process will repeat itself.
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Indeed, in fact in the documentary I linked to above, it goes through the rise, the good times, the decadent/corrupt times and then fall of every system/empire/economy.
 
kbrickley said:
Everybody has to be willing to work and EARN a bite of pie ... one of the problems we have is that there are too many people who do not wish to work for a living or feel that that their jobs are worth much more than the market rate ... you are right however that we need to ensure that there are fewer obstacles to prevent a person with a new or creative idea from succeeding
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The flaw with this argument is that the overwhelming majority of the poor in the U.S. are the working poor. People who despite the fact that they put in countless hours a week (certainly much more than I have ever worked in my relatively comfy 40-hour per week career) can barely keep a roof over their heads and don't know where their next meal will come from.

Did you know that one in five children in the U.S. live in a home where they are food insecure?

There is this myth of the welfare queen, living it large on the government dime, but nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, over 90% of entitlement benefits go Elderly, Disabled or Working households. People who despite trying can not make ends meet.

The causes for this? There are many. let me list a few:

1.) Compared to other industrialized nations, education in the U.S. is very expensive. State schools back in the day used to be tuition free. It was seen as a benefit to society as a whole, lifting the entire nation, to have an educated workforce and citizenry. But the wealthy lobbying classes over the last 40 years have succeeded in cutting budgets to these institutions to the point where they too are out of reach of most Americans, and only about 30% of Americans are able to get a higher education.

2.) Clever tax loopholes, deductions, and capital gains exemptions put in place - again - by the wealthy lobbying classes ensure that today, as opposed to 40 years ago, many poor pay higher overall taxes (as measured as a percent of their income) than many billionaires. The result? Less revenue, and more of a push - again by the wealthy lobbying classes - to further cut the social safety net, and other programs intended to help lift people out of poverty.

3.) The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.60 per hour. Adjusted for inflation, that's $11 per hour in 2015 dollars, yet the wealthy lobbying classes are resisting even improving it slightly over it's current levels. It is true, we shouldn't be striving to have people work their entire careers in minimum wage jobs, but what a decent minimum wage does is allows the less fortunate parents to raise their kids, spend time with them doing homework instead of working 3 jobs, and maybe - just maybe - somehow helping them afford college, despite the ridiculous expense.

4.) Many of the successes of our country have come from unions, (including the 8 hour work day, the weekend, the fact that you can no longer be paid in tokens only redeemable at the company store, etc. etc.) but over the last 30 - 40 years the wealthy lobbying classes have actively sought to destroy them

5.) Teachers are some of the most important people we have in society, as they teach the next generation of kids. It's a tremendously tough, and extremely important job, yet we pay them a pittance, under fund their resources, make them work in buildings that in some cases are literally falling apart. How on earth can they be successful in these circumstances? Again, guess who is lobbying to cut costs, while they themselves send their kids to private schools?

I could go on and on and on.

The truth is, those with money have power, and they have been using that power for the last 40 years to systemically cut out the safety net and destroy public education, which keeps the poor poor, because they don't like taxes.


And these problems are passed down generation over generation because a parent that is forced to work three jobs can possibly be there for their kids, to help them with homework, or teach them proper work ethic, or how to be a decent human being, so you wind up with crime addiction and the cycle of poverty repeats over and over and over again.


What countries like Sweden have realized is that EVERYONE benefits when you don't have poverty, not just the poor. You have less crime, you have a more educated and qualified workforce able to take advantage of the opportunties that present themselves in the marketplace, and drive the success fo the nation forward. it makes the country a better place, and is thus worth investing in, even from a selfish perspective.


In 2013, Sweden closed 4 prisons because crime is dropping rapidly, and they just don't need them anymore. Meanwhile american prison populations are at record highs.

This just goes to show that many of these investments pay for themselves in the long run. Your economy will grow faster if you have a qualified and educated workforce, with less crime there are fewer economic losses (not to mention fewer costs in policing and prisons), etc. etc. etc.

There will always be those in society who don't succeed, but if we as a society remove the barriers to entry, rather than build them up, we ensure that all people have the OPPORTUNITY to be successful, as opposed to where we are now, where many are being held down, without the ability to improve their lives.

When we do this ALL of us benefit in immeasurable ways. It is an investment in the future of our country, not a resource drain.
 
Amen!

Watch the John Oliver bit on the Wealth Gap (link in my earlier post) backs up pretty much everything you say. The stuff certain presidential candidates/Fox News try to scare people with are largely myths.

Most of the 'bad things' don't exist, it just allows a certain small group to keep most of the money...in off-shore accounts mostly.
 
Exavior said:
What do you consider workaholic then? somebody that does their job?
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My definition is someone that lives to work rather than works to live, which I see as spending more time at the job than with the family. And yes I'm aware that's not something everyone has the luxury of doing, especially around here, so it's a knock on the system rather than the unfortunate wage slave.

And allot of people seem to confuse productivity with long work hours, especially in upper management that's rampant of sociopaths. That's why you got places like Japan where employees sleep overnight in their offices so they can make their managers look good and boast about their "hard working" unit.

That said, 6 hours is a luxury, I'm more used the 8 hour schedule. I'd like to see the overall productivity vs productivity/hour tradeoffs on that one. A healthy lifestyle to me is 8 hrs work, 8 hrs sleep and 8 hrs personal time in my book.
 
Wierdo said:
My definition is someone that lives to work rather than works to live, which I see as spending more time at the job than with the family. And yes I'm aware that's not something everyone has the luxury of doing, especially around here, so it's a knock on the system rather than the unfortunate wage slave.
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Yeah, I like your definition, I'd take it and tweak it slightly.

I'd call a workaholic someone who CHOOSES to live to work, rather than to work to live. We have all wound up in unfortunate situations with sociopath dictator-type business leaders willing to suck their employees dry to further their business, and many employees feel stuck in that situation.
 
You're pathetic. You insult someone then you cry to the mods when you get insulted back.

Definitely a beta male. Or a crybaby. Same thing.
 
The startups have more jobs created and more enginuity, more of the capitalistic entrepreneur spirit for anyone who wants to work hard and live their dreams. But, alas, the deck is stacked against small business as in favor of big Corp. Big bussinesses have armies of lawyers to work the legal, accountants to massage the numbers, and lobbyists to gain favor from the politicians. Not sure if we are that much more capitalistic than China.
 
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