Are Windows Phones all but dead?

evilsofa said:
Yo, Microsoft - phones are a status symbol. Duh.
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Really? In what world do you live in? A phone is a tool, like a hammer. I got nothing but pity for the fools that get $750 phones when a $300 phone will do the exact same thing.

WP has the best user experience out of all the phone OSes available. WP will recover in the corporate world because even with Outlook available for iOS and Android the integration for Exchange, Lync, & Sharepoint is craptastic on non WP devices.

Had a Lumia 800 for a couple of years, went to Samsung S5, hate the UX, will buy whatever decent WP 10 shows up in the Q3/Q4 2015.
 
Thuleman said:
Really? In what world do you live in? A phone is a tool, like a hammer. I got nothing but pity for the fools that get $750 phones when a $300 phone will do the exact same thing.

WP has the best user experience out of all the phone OSes available. WP will recover in the corporate world because even with Outlook available for iOS and Android the integration for Exchange, Lync, & Sharepoint is craptastic on non WP devices.

Had a Lumia 800 for a couple of years, went to Samsung S5, hate the UX, will buy whatever decent WP 10 shows up in the Q3/Q4 2015.
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Why do you ever buy nice clothes? Or a nice car? All you need is rags and the cheapest reliable car you can get. After all, they're just tools.

It's because people want more than just the bare minimum. It's a device that accompanies you for most of the day and handles everything from the most basic communication to navigation to photography. You don't need a high-end phone to get all of those done, but it'll make the experience a hell of a lot nicer.

And you can say that WP has the best user experience available, but that doesn't change the reality that the vast majority of smartphone buyers are either just fine with what they have or actively disagree with you. That includes corporate customers.
 
2004 11.3%
2005 17%
2006 37%
2007 42%
2008 27% This is when MS indicates their WM 7 development was ongoing [this was the beginning of the end as MS was hem hawing around] but it never gets released.

2009
MS working on Apple like OS WP 7 and WM 7 was due to be released but got caned. HD2 cannot stop the downward slide of WM since MS said they are done with it. market share still tanks as no one wants a dead OS and WP 7 is late to the market not showing up until 2K10....and vastly inferior to the previous release.
 
evilsofa said:
A world where the iPhone has a market share ten times that of Windows Phone and Microsoft has no flagship phone products.
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Because of idiots whose decisions are made by advertising and who believe a phone is a status symbol.
 
MrCrispy said:
Because of idiots whose decisions are made by advertising and who believe a phone is a status symbol.
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They always have been, before there were smart phones, even before there were cell phones. Welcome to the real world where WP isn't taken seriously, because if the tech companies don't take it seriously enough to make nice phones for it, why should consumers?
 
The rollout of windows phone was a mess for a million reasons. All of them added up to more customers that didn't want to switch.

1 windows mobile had a horrible reputation. It was built on some great smartphones but those phones didn't have reliable hardware so they had high failure rates. This gave them a bad reputation. The touch pro 2 was really a killer device for the time but shit so many people had keyboards failing. And phone companies didn't like this because they love selling people insurance for phones that rarely break not for phones that break all the time.

2 MS couldn't make up their mind about what they wanted to do and it resulted in 3-4 different major changes which all took a year or more to accomplish. This put them 4 years behind anyone and all that while that they kept saying oh just wait for X or Y more people didn't buy what ever their current phone was. After 3-4 years of broken promises you lost a shit ton of customers.
First they tried windows mobile 6.5 which had a cool hexagonal interface. But it still wasn't designed to be 100% touch. Then they tried kin, which Verizon didn't give a shit about so it was an immediate failure. Finally they try WP7 which is a fine OS in itself but by that time it was just so far behind feature wise. Simple shit like copy and paste which WM users razed iphone users for not having had made its way to the iphone, and WP ends up not having it. The biggest irony IMO was that had MS just stuck with wp 6.5 I think they would be in better shape now as many of the complaints about speed in WP6.5 easily could have been solved in less time as phone SOCs where getting insanely fast in that timeframe. And they would have had more support because in the 4 years that MS was screwing around android succeeded in having its first mega hit phone and carrying on to many more effectively taking over the open hardware side of the industry that MS used to enjoy being king of. This left no major hole in the phone market place for MS to fill other than the total bottom end. Unfortunately it wouldn't be hard at all for android makers to fill that hole.
 
MrCrispy said:
Because of idiots whose decisions are made by advertising and who believe a phone is a status symbol.
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As I mentioned its a million reasons one cannot ignore the desire to create a status symbol. MS needs to do it if that is what the market desires.

On top of that there are millions of people like myself who couldn't care less about a status symbol but still want a high end phone. And for people like use MS still doesn't offer anything. MS has no counter to the galaxy note 4, which has to be about the most ironic thing on earth given the surface branded devices seem to be exactly such a device for hybrids and tablets yet the brainless leadership which is putting everything into that cannot seem to figure out that maybe if they made a high end surface branded phone with a high end display, SOC, active digitizer and the ability to doc in to a monitor and become a full computer they would have that status symbol.
 
So when are the new Windows Phones coming out? I have a Galaxy S4 and it's time to upgrade to a new phone on Verizon. I want to try something new for fun and Win 10 seems pretty neat.
 
cageymaru said:
So when are the new Windows Phones coming out? I have a Galaxy S4 and it's time to upgrade to a new phone on Verizon. I want to try something new for fun and Win 10 seems pretty neat.
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Supposedly when Windows 10 debuts.
 
cageymaru said:
So when are the new Windows Phones coming out? I have a Galaxy S4 and it's time to upgrade to a new phone on Verizon. I want to try something new for fun and Win 10 seems pretty neat.
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3rd of 4th quarter this year is what most seem to think. I personally want the smaller of the 2 new rumored lumia's that should have a 6 core chip and 20 megapixel camera. I love my 1020 but I want something with a faster camera.

My brother has a 920 that he really wants to replace as well and he also wants another windows phone. Both of us love the interface and how well the phone works(I have a work 64 gig iphone 6 and prefer the windows phone).
 
As much as I am excited for Windows 10 Mobile and its Continuum feature. I'm thinking Microsoft's phone platform is as good as dead unless they go x86. The fact that they cut so many jobs from the phone hardware team leads me to believe that Microsoft has pretty much given up, and is only in this to not be labeled as patent troll. I think Microsoft and Google might be the only major companies still making money off Android. Is Samsung still making money on the phones?
 
I bought a cheap Windows phone (Lumia 635 for $50 from Walmart) to replace my GS5 until I can fix its shattered screen, and I find the concept interesting. I like the tiles, and the list view for apps. But I hate the settings menu, and for some reason, every couple days it'll hard lock while I'm using Internet Explore and the screen will go black. I have to soft-reset it to get it working again. Overall the platform is very intriguing.


But the biggest let down of WP for me is that the apps I used on my GS5 are either non-existant (I don't want to switch to a new app with similar functionality), or if they do exist, they are severely restricted in functionality. That by itself will keep WP in far last place, if it doesn't kill it off altogether. If the developers don't even want to put the effort into making their WP app experience the same as what they have on their Android and IOS counterparts, then why should consumers invest in the platform?
 
dan87 said:
x86 isn't going to sell Windows phones.
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The point is Continuum. x86 would allow it to be a full fledged computer once docked.

As for the lack of development, why should they develop for like 2% of users who most likely only bought a cheap windows phone because it's cheap?
 
I really don't see WP ever becoming a mainstream platform or at least in the foreseeable future. It's really hard to get people to switch platforms once they're stuck in one and with all the services that Apple and Google offer that are as good or better than MS, either Google/Apple are going to have to fuck up really bad to get people to drop them or MS is going to have to offer some really nice features and services for free or super cheap. This is all assuming they can get their dev/app issues sorted out and start competing better in that area as well. I know their app store "count" has increased significantly in the past couple years, but quantity doesn't say anything about the support (updates) these apps get after launch. There are a lot of apps I use on Android that I've looked up for WP and for the few that actually exist, haven't been updated in the last 6-18 months, which is pretty sad.

Another big issue with WP is that OEMs can't seem to get a unified phone to launch on all carriers. MS/Nokia kept using the antiquated carrier exclusive system for their Lumia phones. HTC almost did it with the 8X, it was just missing on Sprint. I don't think Samsung made the Ativ phones for all carriers either, with different variants on Verizon, Sprint and AT&T. Pretty hard to get any brand recognition when you don't have a consistent phone line to point to regardless of what carrier someone is on.
 
CHANG3D said:
The point is Continuum. x86 would allow it to be a full fledged computer once docked.

As for the lack of development, why should they develop for like 2% of users who most likely only bought a cheap windows phone because it's cheap?
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Continuum is a nice dream (I know one or two people here who've fantasized about Microsoft conquering the world with it), but I don't see that really changing the game any time soon. Apple and Google toppled Microsoft's monopoly precisely because many people don't need a big screen all that often. And when they do, they usually want a lot more computing power than a phone can offer.
 
I would love to take my work bitlocked computer in my pockets, and dock it where I need. So continuum x86 is a dream! Instead of issuing laptops or tablets. Laptop is too bulky, and a tablet is too small a display to get more work done. And I say this while bringing my Surface Pro everywhere with a dock at the office and another at home. (dual 24" 1080p NEC monitors at work, technically triple displays with the Surface; and a 27" 1440p monitor at home, dual displays with the surface; and Microsoft Sculpt combo at work and razer mechanical keyboard and mouse at home; mostly what I do with the extra surface display while docked is playing YouTube, music, or even Netflix)

If Microsoft makes a x86 6" (or 5.8") Surface Phablet, that would basically be the dream of 2015...
 
CHANG3D said:
I would love to take my work bitlocked computer in my pockets, and dock it where I need. So continuum x86 is a dream! Instead of issuing laptops or tablets. Laptop is too bulky, and a tablet is too small a display to get more work done. And I say this while bringing my Surface Pro everywhere with a dock at the office and another at home. (dual 24" 1080p NEC monitors at work, technically triple displays with the Surface; and a 27" 1440p monitor at home, dual displays with the surface; and Microsoft Sculpt combo at work and razer mechanical keyboard and mouse at home; mostly what I do with the extra surface display while docked is playing YouTube, music, or even Netflix)

If Microsoft makes a x86 6" (or 5.8") Surface Phablet, that would basically be the dream of 2015...
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Oh, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool, even if imperfect... I'm just saying that it won't be popular enough to carry water for the Windows phone business. You probably know that, I just wanted to make it clear. The folks who sincerely believe it'll change everything are probably the same ones convinced that custom launchers and ROMs are a major factor in Android's success.
 
Aurelius said:
Oh, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool, even if imperfect... I'm just saying that it won't be popular enough to carry water for the Windows phone business. You probably know that, I just wanted to make it clear. The folks who sincerely believe it'll change everything are probably the same ones convinced that custom launchers and ROMs are a major factor in Android's success.
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And I agree with you. All I'm saying is that Microsoft could advertise their phones way better by going x86 and saying that it's a full fledged computer that you take with you in your pockets, and market the docks like crazy! Right now as it stands, I see no reason to not get an iOS or an Android device instead, especially when Office works so well on it despite being iOS or Android. The best way for Microsoft to stand out is x86. I don't know why Microsoft is slow on this.

That ZenFone 2 hack with Windows 7/8.1/10 beta might be the best Windows "mobile" to date... And it didn't come from Microsoft!
 
The only reason MS had for moving to ARM based software was in hopes to lure other developers using similar Dev Environments to make Apps for their ecosystem.

I think since that failed they should move to a strictly x86 environment.

Also Continuum should be a popular workstation idea. Certain workplace positions can forgo the idea of a PC and use a very low powered device like a phone to do Outlook/Word processing. This is if companies decide to bite off on it, it would need some very strong support from MS (some Apple is very good at) and get their tech's to branch out and make it a painless operation.
 
I just bought Lumia 930 because I love Windows Phones, it has better HW then iPhone 6 and it is 2 times cheaper now :) Win Win
 
Granted I'm rather a low tech person bordering on troglodyte but when I came from a bone phone to the 521 I really enjoyed the operating system. My wife is also a non-techie but catches onto things quickly. She purchased an early Samsung Galaxy and NEVER figured out how to use it and no, I didn't help her. After trying my 521 she found it so intuitive that she dumped her Galaxy and purchased a Nokia 635 and loves it.

As a T-Mobile customer I just replaced my trusty Nokia 521 w/a MS 640 and it does everything I need it to plus it has a much nicer screen than either the 521 or 635. My Nokia 521 was free (don't ask) and I paid just north of $100 for the 640 so regarding hardware costs my average "smart' phone costs are probably well below most of the members here.

My brother, a bona fide troglodyte who uses a flip phone, asked if I had a smart phone. I answered that if a smart phone had a PHD then mine had a Jr. College degree (no offense intended for you Jr. College folks).

I wish that my carrier, T-Mobile, could at least offer a higher end MS phone. My wife would buy it.
 
I was in the market for a new phone. I used the Lumia 521 (tmobile) for the psat 2 years. At that time, the 521 could be had around ~$100 and it was supported by Tmobile. I never had a smartphone before because they were so expensive (don't use tmobile contract plans). I bought for the family so it was a very good deal. I upgraded to WP8.1 when it came out. My use was very limited; just calls, text, web surfing, podcasts, simple games. When I was looking for a new phone, I also learned more things about the Windows Phone OS. There were things I could do that I never did before in the 2 years that I owned in. I was impressed.

So after weeks of comparing android with WP, I decided that WP was better for me. I'm not saying that WP has no issues, but I'm used to it. I see no advantage to switching to Android. One issue with Android is that it feels like the Wild West. OEMs have their own skins and I think there's too much customization. I just want the phone to work and have enough flexibility. WP gives me that (can't say everyone will agree with that though).

Many of the problems people ascribe to WP are lack of apps. I think that for a segment of the population this might be an issue. However, there are still many good apps for people who just want to get things done. I think that Microsoft's plan to take on the business segment is a good way forward. Not everyone plays games and spends time on social media (though advertisers seem to tell us that everyone is deeply engrossed in FB-snapchat-instagram...). What I do miss in WP is being unable to use Google Voice :(

I got a Lumia 830 now and with a 5 inch screen and 1gb RAM, it is a big improvement over the 521. My biggest issue is that I would have rather liked to buy phones off Tmobile rather than international versions. There is only a Lumia 640 in Tmobile store. The rest of the world has 640xl (too big though) already and they also don't do exclusive deals like in the USA (VZW Lumia Icon and 735 or ATT Lumia 830).

MS has a good platform but they don't seem to market it very well in the USA.
 
philfromMPC said:
I was in the market for a new phone. I used the Lumia 521 (tmobile) for the psat 2 years. At that time, the 521 could be had around ~$100 and it was supported by Tmobile. I never had a smartphone before because they were so expensive (don't use tmobile contract plans). I bought for the family so it was a very good deal. I upgraded to WP8.1 when it came out. My use was very limited; just calls, text, web surfing, podcasts, simple games. When I was looking for a new phone, I also learned more things about the Windows Phone OS. There were things I could do that I never did before in the 2 years that I owned in. I was impressed.

So after weeks of comparing android with WP, I decided that WP was better for me. I'm not saying that WP has no issues, but I'm used to it. I see no advantage to switching to Android. One issue with Android is that it feels like the Wild West. OEMs have their own skins and I think there's too much customization. I just want the phone to work and have enough flexibility. WP gives me that (can't say everyone will agree with that though).

Many of the problems people ascribe to WP are lack of apps. I think that for a segment of the population this might be an issue. However, there are still many good apps for people who just want to get things done. I think that Microsoft's plan to take on the business segment is a good way forward. Not everyone plays games and spends time on social media (though advertisers seem to tell us that everyone is deeply engrossed in FB-snapchat-instagram...). What I do miss in WP is being unable to use Google Voice :(

I got a Lumia 830 now and with a 5 inch screen and 1gb RAM, it is a big improvement over the 521. My biggest issue is that I would have rather liked to buy phones off Tmobile rather than international versions. There is only a Lumia 640 in Tmobile store. The rest of the world has 640xl (too big though) already and they also don't do exclusive deals like in the USA (VZW Lumia Icon and 735 or ATT Lumia 830).

MS has a good platform but they don't seem to market it very well in the USA.
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It's a great mobile OS, my niece has the 640 via Cricket. Unfortunately , it falls short in some places and Windows phone users are left out in the dark with NFC payments since Google acquired Softcard (which was the app everyone used to use for mobile transactions via a windows phone) There is no way to initiate a NFC transaction unless a company decides to make one for the windows environment. Right now they have Tim Hortons, Walgreens, AMC Theaters, and Stub Hub, That's pretty much it. If you just want a phone, it's great. AFAIK, it doesn't seem to lag like Android does after every major update. As for hands free voice commands, unfortunately it only works in driving mode and only for one action ( replying via text). You can still invoke Cortana to listen by holding down the magnifying glass on the bottom right , but the 640 lacks the hardware to always listen in the background for a trigger phrase.
 
Sorry this is a hair off topic so think of it more as a public service announcement.

As a long time T-Mobile customer I don't mean to turn this into a T-Mobile love fest, BUT, if you also happen to be a T-Mobile customer you should know that you can waltz into any T-Mobile store and ask them for a Personal CellSpot and they'll send you home with an ASUS TM-AC1900 Dual-Band WIreless Router . . . FREE . . . which replaced my old Netgear N300 and improved wi-fi calling quality from in and around my home immensely.
 
philfromMPC said:
I was in the market for a new phone. I used the Lumia 521 (tmobile) for the psat 2 years. At that time, the 521 could be had around ~$100 and it was supported by Tmobile. I never had a smartphone before because they were so expensive (don't use tmobile contract plans). I bought for the family so it was a very good deal. I upgraded to WP8.1 when it came out. My use was very limited; just calls, text, web surfing, podcasts, simple games. When I was looking for a new phone, I also learned more things about the Windows Phone OS. There were things I could do that I never did before in the 2 years that I owned in. I was impressed.

So after weeks of comparing android with WP, I decided that WP was better for me. I'm not saying that WP has no issues, but I'm used to it. I see no advantage to switching to Android. One issue with Android is that it feels like the Wild West. OEMs have their own skins and I think there's too much customization. I just want the phone to work and have enough flexibility. WP gives me that (can't say everyone will agree with that though).

Many of the problems people ascribe to WP are lack of apps. I think that for a segment of the population this might be an issue. However, there are still many good apps for people who just want to get things done. I think that Microsoft's plan to take on the business segment is a good way forward. Not everyone plays games and spends time on social media (though advertisers seem to tell us that everyone is deeply engrossed in FB-snapchat-instagram...). What I do miss in WP is being unable to use Google Voice :(

I got a Lumia 830 now and with a 5 inch screen and 1gb RAM, it is a big improvement over the 521. My biggest issue is that I would have rather liked to buy phones off Tmobile rather than international versions. There is only a Lumia 640 in Tmobile store. The rest of the world has 640xl (too big though) already and they also don't do exclusive deals like in the USA (VZW Lumia Icon and 735 or ATT Lumia 830).

MS has a good platform but they don't seem to market it very well in the USA.
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Apps are the main problem, but I wouldn't say marketing is necessarily the other big issue in the US. It's what you pointed out a moment earlier: horribly inconsistent availability. It's a total crapshoot as to whether or not the follow-up to your favorite phone will be available on the same carrier a couple of years later... or at all. I'm not totally confident that Microsoft has recognized this, but I'm hoping that the reorganization means throwing much more money at carriers to guarantee availability on more US carriers.
 
As the other platforms are finding fewer and fewer features to add, the MS platform is filling in nicely. I find the information I can get in one glance of my screen to be far more productive and useful in much faster time than other platforms. Weather I know what it is without opening the app. Calendar has my next meeting visible, again, no need to go anywhere or do anything. One glance and I know where it is and what we are working on. Blocking calls is a simple one click and I never hear from that line ever again. White text on a black background beats Apple senseless in terms of UI useability and security beats the utter pants off of the Android world.

Have a Icon now and HTC 8x and both are excellent. I'll probably be on board for a 5.5-5.75 area model when they come around later in the year.
 
The entire MS offering can be summed up with 1 word, anemic. It simply lacks any depth.

1% at a time, (as people here love to tell everyone their use is niche and only 1%) it adds up to 97% of purchases aren't windows phone.

All the features Anemone listed are available on android, so what motivation does an android user have to switch?

You cant pin it on anyone feature or problem, you have to build a platform that caters to a wide range of consumers. Or you need one hella big blockbuster feature or application. The problem is the one thing MS did have, MS office, they sold out. Its now available on all devices it is no longer going to drive sales. The other place MS was doing alright in was really cheap sales but since then android makers have countered, $20 moto G, there isn't much lower to go.

There is one place MS could make huge ground but probably will fail at. Because the one place that MS has always been extremely weak in, is conflict of interest. MS will totally bone an entire industry to try to push one of their own products. This is what happened to gamers when they had the xbox 360 success. And now MS has a chance to bring out really good phones that have desktop capabilities with atom. Make good priced docks and stations etc.... So you take a phone drop it in a dock and all of a sudden you don't need a laptop or a desktop. But guess what MS will miss that boat either out of gross incompetence or because they don't want to sacrifice their desktop sales or even their cloud offerings.
 
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Actually, those devices could be a big boon to their cloud services. Seeing as you can use their cloud computing service and storage services in one plan these would make great ultra-secure login devices. Using the unique SIM cards and whatever else software keys they can think of they can use these as a type of key card, or cloud login-on-the-go devices.

Either way, WP will exist if only as a measure to maintain patents. But it will almost always be a mediocre phone.
 
All the features Anemone listed are available on android, so what motivation does an android user have to switch?
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Security
Lower Bloat
Compatibility with more standards, not just Google's
Not having to share my life's details with Google - priceless
You can't see the level of instantaneous information on Android - have a wide comparison base of Android users to compare that with
Less customization of the start screen
3rd party UI issues from nearly every flagship android phone - only avoidable with the stock Play phones, which is the best way to go anyway
Phone updates? Oh right, Google doesn't do that.
 
I can customize the start screen on my Android just fine and my S5 has had 2 updates in past year alone. Seems fast enough enough to me so what is this bloat?
 
Move your phone icon to the top right corner of the screen. Rooting is not allowed.
 
Anemone said:
Security
Lower Bloat
Compatibility with more standards, not just Google's
Not having to share my life's details with Google - priceless
You can't see the level of instantaneous information on Android - have a wide comparison base of Android users to compare that with
Less customization of the start screen
3rd party UI issues from nearly every flagship android phone - only avoidable with the stock Play phones, which is the best way to go anyway
Phone updates? Oh right, Google doesn't do that.
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Look for most people their phones are fast enough. Lets say you wait 100ms second for something to happen on Android and 50ms on WP, is that 50 ms worth giving up the whole application library or phone choices? But all that even assumes its faster. WP doesn't even have any modern options for many people which means your simply using an old outdated SOC with limited RAM. So is it really any faster in application performance?

My galaxy note 4 displays notifications on the lock screen for me. I don't know what you see that I don't. I see calendar events, or anything I want. There are also widgets. Once again even if you can find something am I going to give up a device like the galaxy note 4 for what? Some sealed battery fruity colored nokia with no active digitizer stylus?

Most people wont change their default UI, because they are happy enough with it. You need a real feature people are missing that actually matters not oh whatever you said cant move an icon to here or there. So why you cant even arrange icons in windows phone the way you want. You cant even have widgets, live tiles are just like poor mans widgets they do some cool stuff but not all.

Compatibility is something that google breaks MS on all the time. Great you are more compatible with some open standards but everyone is using google products and compatibility breaks periodically there.

I admire the love for WP and I sure hope MS can get their act together so we have a serious competitor to keep google in check but nothing you listed is going to drive sales cause its either wrong or hardly anyone cares.

The first thing MS needs to do is commit to getting a full range of phones out there. There are millions of people who want a top end phone and MS offers nothing. These people are important customers. They have money and influence over their friends. No one is going to look at a lumia 635 and say oh gosh cant wait to give up my note 4 for that.
 
On multiple fronts I don't see eye to eye with you Rudy. But I do understand the need to pick up the pace a bit on MS part.

You would have to admit the lack of a formal updating system is something Google really needs to step up to, yes?
 
It would certainly be good / better if google made core OS updates something they gain control over and take it away from carriers. However ultimately one has to admit that that very process does not seem to be important to android users as the most popular android phones are not nexus. Also I believe that MS screwed themselves over back in early windows phone because they didn't have enough hardware flexibility due to everyone waiting for MS to support features (they could have moved faster to support them themselves as an alternative solution but they did neither). Wasn't there like a stupid resolution support limit that forced WP makers to stick to lower resolution displays?

Google is unlikely o push this if they think that it will come at a cost of hardware choice and flexibility that might leave a whole in the market for MS or another competitor to fill. Google just like MS can be very slow to roll out features and support.
 
Bowman15 said:
I can customize the start screen on my Android just fine and my S5 has had 2 updates in past year alone. Seems fast enough enough to me so what is this bloat?
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2 updates? WP 8 and 8.1 had many more than that (and that's not including WP 10 beta)
 
I think it's more than possible for MS to create a phone that can get marketshare. They have the money to essentially draw it out as long as they have to.

Really they just need someone decisive at the top that can be decisive about design principles and get things done. That and get the money flowing on app development, even if they have to build their app library themselves. Which if you're following both Apple and Android, both organizations do to some extent. They just may have to do it even more.

I've never been a big proponent of Windows phone, I was always a Blackberry guy, but I would love to have a third competitor that actually matters. Heck, I would love for Bb to grab marketshare again too, but their big issue is solvency and lack of capitol. So that's pretty unlikely.
 
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