OLED Computer Monitors?

Hurin said:
Okay, so you're just simply not serious. Or, at least, not intellectually honest.

I've directed you to a $3K television that you can buy today. You assert that I'm "spouting the glories" of an $11K one.

I point out that the television I'm actually referring to uses the fabrication technique you decry as "vastly inferior", and yet the television performs superbly and exactly as we'd expect OLED to perform. Yet, unmoved, you just assert that it's "fake OLED". . . thus arbitrarily making the decision for everyone about which OLED technique is "true" and which one is "fake."

Your position that OLED is simply "vaporware" might have seemed plausible a year or three ago. But since there has been progress, and retails releases, and drops in price, just as we'd hope and expect as the technology makes its way to the computer monitor sector. . . makes that same view today seem simplistic at best. OLED may in fact not ever flourish. But the evidence currently indicates that there's progress and forward momentum. . . which you seem almost pathologically incapable of even acknowledging.

So, my friend. You are quite simply just talking out of your ass. Which wouldn't be so bad except that you keep vaguely referring to "industry" experts and your vast amount of reading and research. . . yet there's never anything substantive presented.

You are, quite simply, making an ass of yourself. But since I now begin to suspect that you're just here to piss people off and/or entertain yourself by shitting on things unnecessarily, I don't think that particularly bothers you.

--H
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If anything is consistent about people it's that they accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Either point us to an affordable OLED computer monitor, or plans for one, or else concession noted and please STFU.
 
wirk said:
OLED TV panels could be adapted easily to the monitor requirements since OLED is inherently very fast. But manufacturers keep TVs and monitors in separate product lines.

Now the most important thing: the problem with OLED as computer monitor, apart of the price, was/is image retention and ABL (automatic brightness limitation). LG - the only manufacturer of bigger OLED panels now - claim they largely solved this problem. But this may concern TV applications. Monitors are often left with static pictures for very long time, there may still be a problem with image retention. ABL is also inconvenient since panel brightness is automatically changing to limit the power, this may be tolerable in TVs but not in monitors. There were also reported other artefacts in OLED panels making them questionable for monitors, e.g. green tint, black level crush etc.
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Etc. My favorite factoid is that the organic materials used in real OLED (other than the 40% of production that doesn't immediately wind up in a landfill) starts to decay immediately. Because it's organic. Great for food but it sucks for computer monitors.

BTW imo it's refreshing to see at least one other forum member knowledgeable and well read enough on this issue to write informed opinions. Thank you.
 
JeffDC said:
If anything is consistent about people it's that they accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Either point us to an affordable OLED computer monitor, or plans for one, or else concession noted and please STFU.
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I see no problem with using the existing 55" OLED TV for gaming with a computer.
 
JeffDC said:
Etc. My favorite factoid is that the organic materials used in real OLED (other than the 40% of production that doesn't immediately wind up in a landfill) starts to decay immediately. Because it's organic. Great for food but it sucks for computer monitors.
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But wouldn't you rather buy our new shiny edition after a few years?
Now seriously, do you consider non-organic LED to be true CRT replacement, something like Sony's Crystal LED?

bigbluefe said:
I see no problem with using the existing 55" OLED TV for gaming with a computer.
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Then you most likely haven't used a TV for PC gaming / image manipulation. Tricks and intentional(?) limitation. All over the place.
 
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JeffDC said:
If anything is consistent about people it's that they accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Either point us to an affordable OLED computer monitor, or plans for one, or else concession noted and please STFU.
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Please note where you state that LG's OLED technology is "vastly inferior" without any evidence. And where that has been contradicted by actual reviews by actual people who have actually seen that technology in use. I don't need to point to a planned OLED monitor to point out that you are talking out of your ass in that and so many other instances.

There also doesn't need to be a planned OLED monitor in the works for me to point out where you disingenuously refer to $11k OLED televisions when it is common knowledge that they are now $3k.

And so on. . . "Vastly inferior fake OLED on $11k TVs." Etc. Just plain f'ing partisan nonsense.

JeffDC said:
Etc. My favorite factoid is that the organic materials used in real OLED (other than the 40% of production that doesn't immediately wind up in a landfill) starts to decay immediately. Because it's organic. Great for food but it sucks for computer monitors.

BTW imo it's refreshing to see at least one other forum member knowledgeable and well read enough on this issue to write informed opinions. Thank you.
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You write this as though you and this gentleman are the only ones aware of the challenges facing OLED in both the TV and computer monitor space. That isn't the case, of course. And please note that the person you cite is reasonable, presents both sides fairly, and is open to the concept that the challenges can be met (and doesn't necessarily even doubt that LG has already done so) and that monitors will arrive. Whereas, your position can be summed up thusly: "This will never happen. Any good news or progress is 'fake'. . . because CRTs."

There doesn't need to be an OLED monitor due out next year for your logic, "facts", and baseless assertions to be pointed out as fundamentally flawed.

You now refer to another reasonable person who is open-minded about the topic (he accurately describes both the challenges and the possibility that they have been or are being overcome) in an attempt to make your inane assertions seem more reasonable by association. But anybody juxtaposing your posts with his will see that one person is reasonable and fair . . and the other is you.
 
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Incidentally, I'm done. You can only point out in detail the shortcomings in the 'arguments" of the nattering nabobs of negativism for so long before you realize that their primary objective is to just avoid your points rather than address them. So that they can just continue to spout their bizarre anger and hostility.

Yes, OLED faces challenges. It faced challenges to get to a $3K 55" television currently available as well. Yet, here we are.

It may or may not make it into the computer monitor space. But recent developments and the trend have been encouraging. I went through three FW900 CRTs while holding out against LCDs. Thankfully, though, my affinity for that still-great technology hasn't made me bizarrely hostile towards emerging ones. So I don't feel compelled as someone seems to be to cast all OLED news in a ridiculously negative or even hostile light.

--H

P.S. Really done though. I trust any readers following along (both of you) will be able to determine who has posted actual substance in response to mere, unsubstantiated assertion, and reality in the face of partisan straw-man nonsense ($11k Fake OLED tvs, etc.).
 
Hurin said:
Please note where you state that LG's OLED technology is "vastly inferior" without any evidence. And where that has been contradicted by actual reviews by actual people who have actually seen that technology in use. I don't need to point to a planned OLED monitor to point out that you are talking out of your ass in that and so many other instances.
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Uh, yes you do. Nobody is producing affordable OLED computer monitors, nor are there any plans from any manufacturer to produce any. Not next year or ever.

You apparently either have no understanding about the spec differences between computer monitors and TVs, or you're intentionally ignoring these differences. I claim LG's technology is inferior because it obviously is: they have no plans to use or even adapt their OLED TV technology for computer monitors. Also as the cited article correctly notes, other technologies now exist which have already doomed OLED long-term.
 
JeffDC said:
I claim LG's technology is inferior because it obviously is: they have no plans to use or even adapt their OLED TV technology for computer monitors.
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Circular reasoning defined.

But as I said, I'm done. Enjoy your anger and hostility!

Edit: Regarding the only thing you've ever linked. You have a habit of reading things that have "may" and "might" and "maybe" and then relating them to us as "will" and "is" and "definitely." In other words, everything that comes out of you is filtered through a bizarrely partisan and OLED-hostile lens. You're simply not a reasonable or reliable source of information. As has been demonstrated time and again.
 
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I don't understand what plans for a computer monitor have to do with the quality of OLEDs. The computer monitor market for things as pricy and bleeding edge as LG's OLED tech is basically negligible, there's no economic incentive for them to bother with it.
 
what i dont understand is that if samsung can get oled into 10in tablets... how much harder would it be to get laptop sized and then ~20in oled displays
 
Sancus said:
I don't understand what plans for a computer monitor have to do with the quality of OLEDs. The computer monitor market for things as pricy and bleeding edge as LG's OLED tech is basically negligible, there's no economic incentive for them to bother with it.
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Yet you still can't find Asus Rog Swift's in stock.
 
Market for high end TVs is very small, and it's probably even smaller for high quality monitors, especially considering the fragmented nature of product position. We have IPS panels that excel at color reproduction but fall short in response time and input lag. Then gamer-class panels like the Rog that focus specifically on high refresh rate + low input lag while sacrificing PQ.

Samsung and LG's market research teams probably decided it's not worth pursing at this point.

Anyway, 4K showed up in TVs first too, at least at the consumer level. If the rollout of 4K is any indication then perhaps we could start to see OLED monitors in 2016. I don't think we'll see them next year because OLED is just starting to reach affordability for enthusiasts in the TV segment.
 
Randomoneh said:
But wouldn't you rather buy our new shiny edition after a few years?
Now seriously, do you consider non-organic LED to be true CRT replacement, something like Sony's Crystal LED?
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I'm for anything that gives me the same image/video quality, resolution/refresh rate flexibility and durability etc as my 14 year-old CRT, that still works great and outgamuts every flatpanel made under $2K.

Or IOW the claim that is was somehow necessary to completely abandon CRT technology is no less ridiculous today than it was 10 years ago. In fact imo the claim is substantially more ludicrous today, considering WE STILL DON'T HAVE A REPLACEMENT FOR IT.
 
JeffDC said:
I'm for anything that gives me the same image/video quality, resolution/refresh rate flexibility and durability etc as my 14 year-old CRT, that still works great and outgamuts every flatpanel made under $2K.

Or IOW the claim that is was somehow necessary to completely abandon CRT technology is no less ridiculous today than it was 10 years ago. In fact imo the claim is substantially more ludicrous today, considering WE STILL DON'T HAVE A REPLACEMENT FOR IT.
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So then you better hope OLED catches on, otherwise manufactures are just going to keep pushing stagnant LCD technology on us.
 
x3sphere said:
So then you better hope OLED catches on, otherwise manufactures are just going to keep pushing stagnant LCD technology on us.
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IMO OLED technology has already proven to be a bust. LG was getting 10% yields on their attempt at true RGB OLED before they abandoned it. Samsung's were better, but they still would have wound up cramming our landfills with their profit margins.

History has also already proven that the voluntary abandonment of CRT has had one dominant overall effect on the industry: professional image and especially video quality have been restricted to everyone except studios, professionals and very wealthy individuals. E.g. I'm not sure how many readers know CRTs are still being produced, but Sony and others have now priced them along the same lines (or worse) as current OLED monitors. IOW they're hellbent on restricting professional quality to professionals, no matter what technology it is now, or might be in the future. Maybe it sounds and is overly pessimistic, but I'm sticking to that view as long as the carrot-in-front-of-nose situation for an affordable CRT replacement continues past its current ten years.
 
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Nothing like convergence and geometry issues, voltage drop with high contrast causing level floating, all to go with their wonderfully slim profile and totally not back-breaking weight.

CRTs have their own issues. A good CRT is a wonderful display. So is a good LCD, just with different flaws. OLED will get there, we've got PLENTY proof of concept. We have displays large and small that have awesome image quality and other features and are within budgetary reach of regular users. Also with their own flaws but not so tremendous as certain people paint.

OLED is not going away, and it's going to get cheaper as their has been many billions of dollars invested in their manufacture to scale the production.
 
Ryom said:
OLED is not going away, and it's going to get cheaper as their has been many billions of dollars invested in their manufacture to scale the production.
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By whom, LG? And by scale production do you mean including computer monitors? If so please cite a source for that claim.

Also read the article I cited in this thread. Thanks again to China it's almost certain OLED has no future at all for PC monitors.
 
Skakruk said:
I'm not about to pretend that CRT is perfect, but can we drop the hollow size/weight arguments. Most enthusiasts wouldn't bat an eyelid at a huge, heavy PC in something like an FT02 or even Caselabs S8, so why would they give a rat's arse about putting an FW900 on their desk? I know I wouldn't.

Also, I'm not exactly fit or muscular, but I can carry a 32" Trinitron TV around the house just fine. People generally aren't moving their monitors on a daily basis, so I never found CRT weight to be a particularly significant issue, unlike, say, the inability of a monitor to display black.
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You have to be fairly strong to carry a 165 pound, unwieldy TV around the house.

But more importantly why would you want to? I don't understand this nostalgia for CRTs. They are dead, and good riddance because they are crap. Other than a few dimensions few people really care about they were inferior in many ways.

I was a hold out myself but even I gave up the ghost like 6-7 years ago and I'd never even consider going back even if they had 34" 4K CRT monitors (which would probably weigh 200#). Yeah - no.
 
JeffDC said:
IMO OLED technology has already proven to be a bust. LG was getting 10% yields on their attempt at true RGB OLED before they abandoned it. Samsung's were better, but they still would have wound up cramming our landfills with their profit margins.

History has also already proven that the voluntary abandonment of CRT has had one dominant overall effect on the industry: professional image and especially video quality have been restricted to everyone except studios, professionals and very wealthy individuals. E.g. I'm not sure how many readers know CRTs are still being produced, but Sony and others have now priced them along the same lines (or worse) as current OLED monitors. IOW they're hellbent on restricting professional quality to professionals, no matter what technology it is now, or might be in the future. Maybe it sounds and is overly pessimistic, but I'm sticking to that view as long as the carrot-in-front-of-nose situation for an affordable CRT replacement continues past its current ten years.
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The CRTs you linked for sale are microscopic and 1080i. Are you joking? I'd rather have a 30" 3840x2160 LCD with mediocre blacks and motion blur than a tiny, low res 19" screen.
 
Skakruk said:
Mine is ~135 pounds. I keep it as a spare, although it's all but dead now. I really never had a problem with the bulk or weight of CRTs.

People seem to be getting soft these days. I just bought an AIO car sub, which came in a 14x22" box at 17KG. It had a "team lift for your safety" warning on the side. Are they taking the piss?

A 'few dimensions' constituting fundamental image quality. If few people care about that, it's because they're idiots. The typical ignoramus consumer, with his ever receding standards and attraction to superficial gimmicks is why LCD has been successful. Every time I look at the comments on an OLED display article, they're full of muppets droning on about how thin the damned things are, they couldn't care less about the significance that tech has for IQ.

CRTs are flawed in many ways relating to size, weight, efficiency, aesthetics etc, while LCD is overwhelmingly inferior where it really counts: raw image quality. No one is saying that CRT is the way forward, but LCD never was either. It's extremely depressing to see a decade of stagnation in the consumer display market.
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I generally agree with you about people undervaluing the strengths of CRTs, but geometry issues are a huge problem for me. Also, even though there are 100hz+ CRTs, a lot of them were 60hz, and many people are sensitive to 60hz CRT flicker enough to not want to use them regularly as computer monitor they're sitting right in front of.

And yes, people are getting soft--me included.:eek:
 
Skakruk said:
I'm not about to pretend that CRT is perfect, but can we drop the hollow size/weight arguments. Most enthusiasts wouldn't bat an eyelid at a huge, heavy PC in something like an FT02 or even Caselabs S8, so why would they give a rat's arse about putting an FW900 on their desk? I know I wouldn't.

Also, I'm not exactly fit or muscular, but I can carry a 32" Trinitron TV around the house just fine. People generally aren't moving their monitors on a daily basis, so I never found CRT weight to be a particularly significant issue, unlike, say, the inability of a monitor to display black.
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Weight isn't the issue as much as the depth. You can't get a CRT that's as large as a 30" LCD without getting an incredibly deep monitor that would either not fit on most desks or completely eat up most of it.
 
JeffDC said:
IMO OLED technology has already proven to be a bust. LG was getting 10% yields on their attempt at true RGB OLED before they abandoned it. Samsung's were better, but they still would have wound up cramming our landfills with their profit margins.
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You just prove your ignorance in public which is double funny since LG just started world's first real high output OLED manufacturing facility based on their WRGB technology. LG intends to sell about 1 mln OLED TVs in 2015, their yields are reportedly north of 80%. In ten days LG OLED palette will be unveild at the CES'15 but it is known they have 55", 65" and 77" 4K OLEDs. Samsung stopped development of its RGB OLED but has not abandoned the technology. Samsung invested in company called Kateeva which is claimed to be at a very advanced stage of technique of printing OLED displays.
 
What about image retention? If the new oled screens suffer IR we most likely won't see any oled monitors. Just like with the plasma technology. I don't remember any accessible plasma monitors.
 
Pechendko said:
What about image retention? If the new oled screens suffer IR we most likely won't see any oled monitors. Just like with the plasma technology. I don't remember any accessible plasma monitors.
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That's not why there were no plasma monitors, it's because plasmas had minimum pixel sizes that prevented smaller screens from being manufactured. There's no burn-in on modern plasms, I've left windows background up on my F8500 for 12 hours and it's fine.

sharknice said:
Yet you still can't find Asus Rog Swift's in stock.
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You often can't find Nvidia's top-end gpus in stock for a long time after they are released, but that doesn't mean Nvidia is making a significant amount of revenue from them.
It's all about volume of sale, and the reason there aren't Asus Rog Swifts in stock is they're not producing very many, not because hundreds of thousands of people are buying them.
 
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jvrobert said:
You have to be fairly strong to carry a 165 pound, unwieldy TV around the house.

But more importantly why would you want to? I don't understand this nostalgia for CRTs. They are dead, and good riddance because they are crap. Other than a few dimensions few people really care about they were inferior in many ways.
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For every one you name for CRTs I will name you five for flatpanels.
 
wirk said:
You just prove your ignorance in public which is double funny since LG just started world's first real high output OLED manufacturing facility based on their WRGB technology. LG intends to sell about 1 mln OLED TVs in 2015, their yields are reportedly north of 80%. In ten days LG OLED palette will be unveild at the CES'15 but it is known they have 55", 65" and 77" 4K OLEDs. Samsung stopped development of its RGB OLED but has not abandoned the technology. Samsung invested in company called Kateeva which is claimed to be at a very advanced stage of technique of printing OLED displays.
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Ok we're back to discussing $11,000 TV sets. Do you have a shred of evidence that LG or anyone else are scaling production to include computer monitors? AFAIK "displays" means smartphones and the same $8,000 19" OLEDs that have been sold for the last several years.
 
If LGs 4k OLEDs go down to 40~" we will have a computer monitor of sorts, though as of now I do also doubt they will put any effort in actually making computer displays, they never were making much money there.

Their 1080p OLEDs are already in the 2k € price range, probably dropping further 2015.
by 2016 OLEDs should be at 1k €, hopefully.
 
JeffDC said:
Ok we're back to discussing $11,000 TV sets. Do you have a shred of evidence that LG or anyone else are scaling production to include computer monitors? AFAIK "displays" means smartphones and the same $8,000 19" OLEDs that have been sold for the last several years.
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As I indicated LG is concentrating on big 4K OLED TVs as these are most profitable. The breakthrough is in mass production on big sheets of glass, similar to the ones used for LCD panels. This may open the way for economical making smaller panels too. If LG wants to sell 1 mln OLED panels in 2015 prices must be within reasonable range.

Xpuser said:
If LGs 4k OLEDs go down to 40~" we will have a computer monitor of sorts, though as of now I do also doubt they will put any effort in actually making computer displays, they never were making much money there.
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Indeed, OLED can not compete in general monitor market. One could imagine 40"+ 4K OLED monitors addressing high-end buyers. Such monitors would however be a derivative of TV sets of this size which most likely will not be offered by LG in 2015, it looks smallest size will be 55".
 
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JeffDC said:
By whom, LG? And by scale production do you mean including computer monitors? If so please cite a source for that claim.
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He was referring to their cost and "economies of scale" not the size or "scale" of the displays themselves.

In simple terms, economies of scale means that the more you manufacture of something, the less expensive to manufacture each item becomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
 
Affordable to who?

FFS dude, speak for yourself. There are plenty of people out there who can "afford" these prices. Whether or not you or I can is our problem, at least until the technology matures.

Want cutting edge? Expect to pay out the ass or go home crying...
 
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