Google Self-Driving Car: A First Drive

ShadowVlican said:
i wouldn't mind owning a self-driving car so long as i have the option of driving it myself when i want to

i like driving, but i don't always enjoy it (eg: rush hour crawls... would be nice for a computer to do the driving in that case, while i take a nap or read the paper...)
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Agreed. IMHO, in order for me to get one it would have to be a "convertible".

I'd probably want to do my own driving most of the time, but then if I'd accidentally had a few too many at the bar, do the self drive thing rather than take a cab.

This would require law changes, and probably require a certified "self drive mode" in which the steering wheel is locked away so it can't be manipulated by the possibly intoxicated owner, but it should be possible!
 
TwiceOver said:
Can't wait. Driving is such a waste of time.
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It is a whole lot better than walking or riding a bike. That is unless you are somewhere that there is so much traffic that it is faster to walk or ride a bike.

If i am in a vehicle that is on the road, I want to be aware of my surroundings. Self driving cars will lead to a lot less of that.

Oh.. a sink hole just opened up in the road.. car drives right into it.
Oh, a water main just broke... car drives right into it.
Oh, a sand/dust storm.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, a whiteout situation.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, driving into the sun and the sensor/camera on the vehicle cannot tell whether the light is red or green and keeps going.
Oh, pipes or other object(s) fall off of truck and self driving car is not able to avoid and drives right into it.

The problems with having completely automated cars is pretty numerous.
 
Stiletto said:
In terms of travel, as opposed to what?
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Well, If you don't have to actively drive you could be doing other things, like reading a book/newspaper working, watching a movie, etc. etc.

The more things you can consolidate into the same period of time, the less time you are wasting :p
 
cyclone3d said:
It is a whole lot better than walking or riding a bike. That is unless you are somewhere that there is so much traffic that it is faster to walk or ride a bike.

If i am in a vehicle that is on the road, I want to be aware of my surroundings. Self driving cars will lead to a lot less of that.

Oh.. a sink hole just opened up in the road.. car drives right into it.
Oh, a water main just broke... car drives right into it.
Oh, a sand/dust storm.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, a whiteout situation.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, driving into the sun and the sensor/camera on the vehicle cannot tell whether the light is red or green and keeps going.
Oh, pipes or other object(s) fall off of truck and self driving car is not able to avoid and drives right into it.

The problems with having completely automated cars is pretty numerous.
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I don't think for a second a car would be released without some serious testing in inclement weather.

Presumably they are equipped with radar or other depth perception technology like the Kinect. If anything at worst, a sand storm would appear as a wall of sand, and the car would refuse to drive into it.

I think the biggest challenge is how to handle snow covered roads when it difficult to optically distinguish between what is slush on the road, and what is slush on the side of the road, but I'm sure a solution to this problem will wind up coming down the line.
 
Zarathustra[H];1040858574 said:
I don't think for a second a car would be released without some serious testing in inclement weather.

Presumably they are equipped with radar or other depth perception technology like the Kinect. If anything at worst, a sand storm would appear as a wall of sand, and the car would refuse to drive into it.

I think the biggest challenge is how to handle snow covered roads when it difficult to optically distinguish between what is slush on the road, and what is slush on the side of the road, but I'm sure a solution to this problem will wind up coming down the line.
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That won't work unless all the cars are automated. The absolute worst thing you can do in a whiteout or dust/sandstorm or monsoon rain is to stop on the road. If you do that, you are pretty much guaranteed to be plowed into by one or more other vehicles.

You also don't always have the luxury of stopping before going into one of those. Most of the time, they blow onto/over the road as you are driving on it. Absolutely no way to have an automated car account for that unless every car is automated and it stops all of them within a certain radius of the first car that detects it.

For the snow/ice issue... I would not trust any automated car unless it had spiked tires and the guidance system was accurate down to about 1mm. That is just a disaster waiting to happen.
 
Zarathustra[H];1040858565 said:
Well, If you don't have to actively drive you could be doing other things, like reading a book/newspaper working, watching a movie, etc. etc.

The more things you can consolidate into the same period of time, the less time you are wasting :p
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I'm more thinking along the lines of "well, I'm not going to drive to work anymore, because X takes so much less time". Private jet and a parachute, maybe? Helicopter, perhaps?

How about "if you don't have to drive, you could spend your time doing better things, like travelling!".
 
Zarathustra[H];1040858311 said:
The argument here would probably be, that sure, the system may fault, but overall it is more reliable than a feeble minded, distractable human being and as such overall will save tons of lives.
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With the information it can access, it could drive 900-1200 times better than any human. End of Line...


:D
 
Parja said:
Buncha fuckin' Luddites in this forum.
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Maybe partially. There are also a lot of enthusiasts though, and I think that being one in one field easily translates to being one in other fields. So if you build performance PCs, you might also be into fancy automobiles. I know I have been on and off. People that like nice (read sports) cars, probably also like to drive them. So, a self-driving car might be a little off-putting in that situation. I know I'm not excited about it because I like to drive, and do it quite well I might add. However, the technology itself is pretty cool.
 
Metrea said:
Something tells me that this car will be out of the price range reach for many average consumers.
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These cars make a lot more sense as taxis or shared ownership plans (or rent yours out when you're not using it). You press a button on your phone, and a car shows up to take you where you need to go. You don't need to deal with parking, the car drops you off at the front door and leaves. There will be less and less need to have "your" car that spends most of its time sitting in the garage or sitting in a parking lot.
 
Zamboni said:
These cars make a lot more sense as taxis or shared ownership plans (or rent yours out when you're not using it). You press a button on your phone, and a car shows up to take you where you need to go. You don't need to deal with parking, the car drops you off at the front door and leaves. There will be less and less need to have "your" car that spends most of its time sitting in the garage or sitting in a parking lot.
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I think that is the perfect initial use for automated cars. I would be very surprised if companies like Zip car are not already paying close attention to this. Instead of having to pay for spots to keep their cars parked all around the city, they could keep them all at a couple of central locations and have them dispatched from there. You could even order ahead so that the car is already there waiting for you. Then whenever you are done with the car, you get out, and it heads back to base, or to another customer.

As for all the comments about dust storms, heavy rain, etc. I think I would put more faith in the multitudes of sensors, the much faster processing of information, and better reaction time of the car then I would myself. My external input when driving is limited to my sight (visual spectrum), hearing, and feeling of the car. An autonomous car would likely be able to interpret all of the same inputs that I can in addition to radar, and infrared. Chances are the car could "see" better in a sand storm than any person could, and handle it better as well. Worst case, the car is programmed to pull to the side of the road, as quickly and safely as possible when it encounters a sand storm. Is it possible the car still gets hit by someone else? Yeah. But how is that different then today? Fog is another example, and I remember a huge pile up of 40+ cars on I-4 between Orlando and Tampa because of fog. I think an autonomous car could have handled that situation better, if for no other reason that it would have the sense to slow down to match it's ability to "see". People on the other hand, don't adjust their speed enough, so that by the time they are able to see the stopped car in front of them it's too late.

Overall I think people have brought up a lot of good points about the challenges an autonomous car is going to face. I think most of those challenges can be overcome or at least handles as well as a human driver could be expected to. I think the overall net gain to safety and efficiency far outweighs the few lacking areas. The biggest hurdle in my opinion, will be the cost.
 
J3RK said:
Oh come on! There's nothing that could possibly go wrong!

:D
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I remember on a trip to Indiana from Wisconsin, when we were leaving whatever bumblefuck town we were in, the Garmin GPS decided we should take a drive through Gary. Indiana.

They're already trying to kill us. No fucking way I let them drive.
 
I'd trust the self driving car way more than any of you as a driver. Even if the self driving car makes mistakes I'd bet its a lot less than the millions of bad drivers on the road right now causing accidents wasting people's time, money and life's.
 
Full disclosure: being legally blind, I am extremely biased towards wanting these to be available.

To the Luddites in this thread, you all fail to understand just how low a bar the self-driving car has to get over to be safer than a human driver. You imagine disasters caused by self-driving cars; human drivers are already a disaster that kill 32,000 people a year in the US.

Also, don't forget that 10,000 baby boomers will be retiring every day for the next 20 years (there's 65 million total). As they hit their 70s and 80s, they really need to stop driving, for their safety and ours. THIS is the market that Google is after - not you young guys who aren't tired of driving yet.
 
evilsofa said:
Full disclosure: being legally blind, I am extremely biased towards wanting these to be available.

To the Luddites in this thread, you all fail to understand just how low a bar the self-driving car has to get over to be safer than a human driver. You imagine disasters caused by self-driving cars; human drivers are already a disaster that kill 32,000 people a year in the US.

Also, don't forget that 10,000 baby boomers will be retiring every day for the next 20 years (there's 65 million total). As they hit their 70s and 80s, they really need to stop driving, for their safety and ours. THIS is the market that Google is after - not you young guys who aren't tired of driving yet.
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Myself, I'm not afraid of the technology. I'm afraid of a future government mandate that these things slowly phase out private car ownership, using the same argument you just posed. Because, after all...once these become economically feasible, then private license holders will become nothing more than potential murderers on the road. Shit, guns kill a quarter of the people cars do, and you never stop hearing about people wanting guns more strictly controlled, if not banned. Soon it will be a matter of "Who really NEEDS a car with more than XX horsepower? What are you, an F1 driver?" "Who really NEEDS to steer the car themselves? The computer is flawless, you are not." "Who really NEEDS to customize their route? Anything less than minimum mileage is just increasing your carbon footprint!"
 
First one of these in public someone is going to throw themselves in front of it just to get huge Google money. Hell, I would think about it.
 
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AkwekHp.png
 
cyclone3d said:
Oh.. a sink hole just opened up in the road.. car drives right into it.
Oh, a water main just broke... car drives right into it.
Oh, a sand/dust storm.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, a whiteout situation.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, driving into the sun and the sensor/camera on the vehicle cannot tell whether the light is red or green and keeps going.
Oh, pipes or other object(s) fall off of truck and self driving car is not able to avoid and drives right into it.
Click to expand...

You do realize that the sensors on the car would see all of those situations much more clearly than a human driver? And the car's computers would react faster than a human driver?

If anything the auto-car would be more safe in all of those situations.

You are thinking the only type of sensor on the car is basically a camera like on your cell phone.
 
cyclone3d said:
It is a whole lot better than walking or riding a bike. That is unless you are somewhere that there is so much traffic that it is faster to walk or ride a bike.

If i am in a vehicle that is on the road, I want to be aware of my surroundings. Self driving cars will lead to a lot less of that.

Oh.. a sink hole just opened up in the road.. car drives right into it.
Oh, a water main just broke... car drives right into it.
Oh, a sand/dust storm.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, a whiteout situation.. car drives right into vehicle in front of it.
Oh, driving into the sun and the sensor/camera on the vehicle cannot tell whether the light is red or green and keeps going.
Oh, pipes or other object(s) fall off of truck and self driving car is not able to avoid and drives right into it.

The problems with having completely automated cars is pretty numerous.
Click to expand...

That is probably just an engineering problem to be solve, and I'm sure no one is under the illusion that the streets are always in ideal conditions without those obstacles.

Once we're able to develop a reliable system that allow the car's computer to be aware of it's surrounding, a car's computer will always be better at taking avoidance action that most people are able too. Not only it could react quickly, a computer could react in the right manner so as not to lose control of the car and send it into some other trouble.

We already have technologies like traction control which can sense wheel spin more reliably than a human driver, and cut the engine appropriately to maintain traction. Therefore I do believe that a computer will be significantly better in maintaining control in extreme situations such as a quick turn to avoid obstacles, or driving in bad weather conditions.
 
Hornet said:
That is probably just an engineering problem to be solve, and I'm sure no one is under the illusion that the streets are always in ideal conditions without those obstacles.

Once we're able to develop a reliable system that allow the car's computer to be aware of it's surrounding, a car's computer will always be better at taking avoidance action that most people are able too. Not only it could react quickly, a computer could react in the right manner so as not to lose control of the car and send it into some other trouble.

We already have technologies like traction control which can sense wheel spin more reliably than a human driver, and cut the engine appropriately to maintain traction. Therefore I do believe that a computer will be significantly better in maintaining control in extreme situations such as a quick turn to avoid obstacles, or driving in bad weather conditions.
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I really don't care for traction control. I would rather have control of the vehicle than have the vehicle decide when to let off the gas. Traction control and ABS really don't work on sand, gravel, oil slick, or ice.

Sure some of the stuff may be better than most drivers, but then again most people should not even be driving in the first place.
 
cyclone3d said:
I really don't care for traction control. I would rather have control of the vehicle than have the vehicle decide when to let off the gas. Traction control and ABS really don't work on sand, gravel, oil slick, or ice.

Sure some of the stuff may be better than most drivers, but then again most people should not even be driving in the first place.
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I disagree.

I think you suffer from the same overconfidence in your driving that most drivers do.

(It's always amazing how most people surveyed think they drive well, but everyone else out there on the roads is incompetent)

I'll admit, when it's time to have some fun, I'll turn off traction control and dynamic stability control, but on the slippery stuff in my AWD Volvo, those systems and their multiple spinning gyros are magical!

It's like an invisible hand comes in and points the car in the exactly right direction. Biasing torque to one wheel, applying brake to the another and magically the car is just going in the direction I intended, without any need for fancy corrective maneuvers.

These things undoubtedly save many many lives. There is a reason the NHTSA recommended (and Congress agreed) to legally mandate them starting in the 2012 Model year and why pretty much every higher end model came with the system for several years before that.
 
Xrave said:
You do realize that the sensors on the car would see all of those situations much more clearly than a human driver? And the car's computers would react faster than a human driver?

If anything the auto-car would be more safe in all of those situations.

You are thinking the only type of sensor on the car is basically a camera like on your cell phone.
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That's over selling how difficult it is to process real world data. What happens when the sensor get dirty? What happens if they get dirty because you just drove through a mud hole on some dirt road in the bad part of town?

Not to mention the Kobayashi Maru scenario where this is no good ending, only less bad ones. You have the choice of a brick wall or a child. Now what if there are children in you car? How does a computer make that judgement?
 
jpm100 said:
Not to mention the Kobayashi Maru scenario where this is no good ending, only less bad ones. You have the choice of a brick wall or a child. Now what if there are children in you car? How does a computer make that judgement?
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You assume humans make rational decisions in situations like those, which they don't.

An accident situation where split second decisions are needed is very different from a moral dilemma where you have time to think before making a decision.

In an accident it usually comes down to self preservation instinct. That's why the passenger seat is the most dangerous seat in the car, and we put such huge emphasis on offset head on collisions in crash testing. Rational decision making never really enters the real in a situation like this. The driver is instinctively directing the car in the direction the non-rational lower brain functions determine is the safest for the driver, which usually means the impact is offset on the passenger side. It doesn't matter if they are a parent with children in the car, who would normally sacrifice themselves over their children, because rational thought about the situation never even occurrs. It is pure reaction.

I would argue that a pre-defined and validated computer program could probably do a much better job in a situation like this than a human coould.

Some cars already have auto breaking systems which continually monitor the road ahead and if they detect that you have reached the point where a collision is unavoidable given current speed and distance, automatically slam on the brakes full force to limit the severity of the collision. (expect this to be the next safety feature that becomes mandatory).

Computers are simply better at these things that us distractable people and our slow reaction times.
 
Zarathustra[H];1040858574 said:
I don't think for a second a car would be released without some serious testing in inclement weather.

Presumably they are equipped with radar or other depth perception technology like the Kinect. If anything at worst, a sand storm would appear as a wall of sand, and the car would refuse to drive into it.

I think the biggest challenge is how to handle snow covered roads when it difficult to optically distinguish between what is slush on the road, and what is slush on the side of the road, but I'm sure a solution to this problem will wind up coming down the line.
Click to expand...

maybe they can use some of the data they accumulated from the google street view project, im sure they got a lot more data than just some pretty views.

I'd be surprised if they didn't gather data that could be used by their self driving cars whilst doing the street view project.
 
jpm100 said:
That's over selling how difficult it is to process real world data. What happens when the sensor get dirty? What happens if they get dirty because you just drove through a mud hole on some dirt road in the bad part of town?

Not to mention the Kobayashi Maru scenario where this is no good ending, only less bad ones. You have the choice of a brick wall or a child. Now what if there are children in you car? How does a computer make that judgement?
Click to expand...

You really don't think things like this would be considered before a production version was allowed on the road?
 
Stiletto said:
Myself, I'm not afraid of the technology. I'm afraid of a future government mandate that these things slowly phase out private car ownership, using the same argument you just posed. Because, after all...once these become economically feasible, then private license holders will become nothing more than potential murderers on the road. Shit, guns kill a quarter of the people cars do, and you never stop hearing about people wanting guns more strictly controlled, if not banned. Soon it will be a matter of "Who really NEEDS a car with more than XX horsepower? What are you, an F1 driver?" "Who really NEEDS to steer the car themselves? The computer is flawless, you are not." "Who really NEEDS to customize their route? Anything less than minimum mileage is just increasing your carbon footprint!"
Click to expand...

It won't stop there. Who really NEEDS to chew their own food. We can inject it straight into you. Who really NEEDS to move? We have perfectly good Wall-E-Chairs for you to scoot around on. We'll just hook you into your chair, connect this hose, connect this link, and you're all set!
 
J3RK said:
It won't stop there. Who really NEEDS to chew their own food. We can inject it straight into you. Who really NEEDS to move? We have perfectly good Wall-E-Chairs for you to scoot around on. We'll just hook you into your chair, connect this hose, connect this link, and you're all set!
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Ah, the future...

walle-e-humans-in-the-spaceship.jpg
 
Parja said:
You really don't think things like this would be considered before a production version was allowed on the road?
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Do you think they didn't consider nuclear accidents before building 3 mile island? Or fire before they built the Hindenberg? Or sinking before they built the Titanic?
 
jpm100 said:
Do you think they didn't consider nuclear accidents before building 3 mile island? Or fire before they built the Hindenberg? Or sinking before they built the Titanic?
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There will be occasions were any system like this will fail.

All-in-all they should be safer for all involved than the current state of terrible/distracted/drunk/sleepy/aggressive drivers (which is a pretty low bar)

Let's not let perfection be the enemy of improvement. No system will ever be perfect all the time, but that doesn't mean it can't perform better than people can.

And - at least in Google's implementation - they have an e-stop button.
 
Zarathustra[H];1040860440 said:
I disagree.

I think you suffer from the same overconfidence in your driving that most drivers do.

(It's always amazing how most people surveyed think they drive well, but everyone else out there on the roads is incompetent)

I'll admit, when it's time to have some fun, I'll turn off traction control and dynamic stability control, but on the slippery stuff in my AWD Volvo, those systems and their multiple spinning gyros are magical!

It's like an invisible hand comes in and points the car in the exactly right direction. Biasing torque to one wheel, applying brake to the another and magically the car is just going in the direction I intended, without any need for fancy corrective maneuvers.

These things undoubtedly save many many lives. There is a reason the NHTSA recommended (and Congress agreed) to legally mandate them starting in the 2012 Model year and why pretty much every higher end model came with the system for several years before that.
Click to expand...

In urban conditions they help your average idiot (And no I don't think I'm a rally car driver or anything)

I'm ok with traction control system that shift power between the wheels but I #()@*#)*#)$)@#$)#$)($%*)(#@* hate the systems that cut engine power or apply the brakes. They always seem to kick in about half way through the slide or what not and cause me more problems. Maybe its because I grew up in the boondocks driving old trucks.

My wifes Jeep drives me nuts if there in more than a couple of inches of snow on the ground I spend 5 minutes pushing buttons to turn off all the nannies so I can get out of my drive way. (Because no one needs to spin through a drift right)

Granted I've never dealt with a really high end system. Do they help people like my sisters that just stab the pedal to the ground yep. If you have any idea about what throttle control is they are a hindrance.

Gravel roads are the same way. Heaven for bid a wheel hits a soft spot or speeds up better cut the motor and hit the brakes on the wheel.

On dry pavement they seem to work great. Up until last year my cars spent more time on dirt than on pavement. Now that I've moved and live in town they don't bother me much sans the slushy days.
 
Syco said:
I don't see manual cars being fully replaced in most of our lifetimes. Even if 20 years from now they pass a law banning all manual cars from public roads, you would still have the opportunity to go drive on private roads/courses. In fact, I'm sure an entire industry would pop up to cater to that, much like you have tracks for sports cars today. A better analogy might be with horseback riding, it used to be the only way to get around, and while it has been replaced as a primary means of transportation, you can still find places to go do it for fun if you are so inclined.

I love driving, and will continue to do it as long as I can. However, sitting in rush hour traffic is not driving to me. I would much rather have a automatic car that could get me from home to work and back again, and during that time I would be free to take a nap, read a book, watch a movie or anything else I would like. I also see the benefit for the people who are currently unable to drive (which this video seemed to be about), and as result either have to rely on someone else to drive them around or use public transportation which is very lacking in most of the country. I know I would love the freedom that an automatic car would provide me if I ever lost the ability to drive safely.
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Manual cars pretty much don't exist in the US. have you tried to find one recently?
 
Robstar said:
Manual cars pretty much don't exist in the US. have you tried to find one recently?
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It depends, there are two segments of the population. Among average drivers, yes, they are all but gone. Among car enthusiasts they are still around.

My current Volvo S80 T6 is the first car I've owned since my college beater Mercury Sable to have an automatic. It still frustrates me, but I am getting used to it.

My 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero had a 5 speed manual
My 2004 Saab 9-5 Aero had a 5 speed manual
My 2011 Saab 9-5 Turbo4 had a 6 speed manual

Amusingly enough, it was after much criticism from the U.S. automotive press that BMW re-introduced manual transmissions in their M5 and M6 models a few years back, after initially launching without manuals.

When I decided to replace my 2011 Saab 9-5 (the best car I've ever owned) due to parts availability scares after the bankruptcy, I was looking for a manual car, but I just couldn't find one that suited my needs. Being relatively tall (and having a lot of that height in my upper body) I have found that I need a largish car. I'm a European Sedan guy and I looked at every available European model (except Mercedes. I hate Mercedes) I passed on the BMW 5 series, as I didn't think they had enough head room around the A-Pillar, and they were too expensive to own and maintain after warranty. The Audi A6 similarly got the axe because of post warranty maintenance costs, which left me with the Volvo S80, which doesn't have a manual option (except in Sweden, but only on weak engine versions)

Interestingly enough I was recently speaking to a Volvo dealership tech, and he was telling me even their smaller models are going to be ditching the manual options over the next few years. Their motivation? Surprisingly, not customer preference, but rather CAFE standards. The general wisdom used to always be that you can get better mileage with a manual, but apparently that trend has now reversed.

I still hope my next car will be a manual, but it's looking less and less like that will be the case. I'd also definitely take a transmission-less Tesla Model S over any manual car.
 
Spazturtle said:
I don't really care if people like driving, that's not a good excuse to be able to kill whole family's and large groups of people.
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So now when some moron opens a fake pdf/exe in the main office all the cars will crash into each other and kill large amounts of people.
 
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