U.S Government Accused of Surveilling Citizens

This has been going on for a long time, I don't see how this is anything new. Sadly most people have just gotten to accept it, then again it's not like there's much you can do other than move.
 
Langly said:
Read the article and the quote referenced by the [h]orde is kinda misleading. The article states that tinfoil hat mathmatician says the NSA is going to store data on all the citizens here in utah at the place being made. Hasn't happened totally yet :)
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What they don't realize is that the data center in question is actually being built for the Utah Humane Society so that they can keep better records of pet adoptions in order to reduce the number of revolving door cats and dogs who spend whole lives going in and out of kitty hoosegow.
 
SkribbelKat said:
What they don't realize is that the data center in question is actually being built for the Utah Humane Society so that they can keep better records of pet adoptions in order to reduce the number of revolving door cats and dogs who spend whole lives going in and out of kitty hoosegow.
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Funny thing is, I'll be looking for a couple of dogs from the utah humane society soon :). They better fix those damned books and record keeping!

/thread derail
 
You may not realize this but Canada and The USA trade spy data with each other's citizens.
 
kbrickley said:
Of course it is possible that some people don't like hyperbole ;) ... this is an allegation that the government is spying on us (not a proven fact) ... although it might be true it has absolutely nothing to do with Fascism ... The UK has cameras everywhere that monitor their citizens quite closely (although not necessarily real time) ... and I am pretty sure the UK is not a Fascist country

Whether "tools" like these can be used to encourage Fascism is anybody's guess ... Hitler and Musolini seemed to do the whole Fascist gig pretty effectively without the internet. I think one of the risks of the internet is a loss of privacy. Whether it is the government getting access to information that might not have been available to them otherwise, or Google and Amazon analyzing my purchasing habits to target the ads I receive, or malevelant hackers stealing or intercepting my information for their own nefarious ends I lose a certain amount of control as soon as I start communicating electronically. I can rage against it all I want and say its okay for Google, Amazon, and the hackers but no no no for the government all I want ... but I still chose to put my info into cyberspace where it became fair game.

Personally I would be more upset if the government was listening to my phone conversations or reading my snail mail (as I actually do have an expectation of privacy with those). As I said C'est la Vie (Such is Life) ;)
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Its a form of Fascism you could argue. I'm sure if Hitler and Musolini had the Internet they would have happily used it to spread fascist ideals.

And it would make sense that the Government is spying on us just as they do the rest of the world. Domestic terrorism is just as serious a threat and the Patriot Act gives the Government near mythic power to do whatever it pleases in the name of "National Defense".

I know the NSA is building a massive complex for spying (likely on everyone) in Utah : http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

Read that and tell me it will only , EXCLUSIVELY be used for potential foreign terrorist threats/monitoring.
 
Godmachine said:
Its a form of Fascism you could argue. I'm sure if Hitler and Musolini had the Internet they would have happily used it to spread fascist ideals.

And it would make sense that the Government is spying on us just as they do the rest of the world. Domestic terrorism is just as serious a threat and the Patriot Act gives the Government near mythic power to do whatever it pleases in the name of "National Defense".

I know the NSA is building a massive complex for spying (likely on everyone) in Utah : http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

Read that and tell me it will only , EXCLUSIVELY be used for potential foreign terrorist threats/monitoring.
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Actually I could argue whether this particular item ... the allegation that the government is "reading" every email sent through the internet ... is fascism :p ... there are things our government does that are fascist like but they mainly have to do with our foreign policy and our immigration policy and views towards immigrants ... right now we are more of a plutocracy than anything else ... and that unfortunately isn't likely to change anytime soon

As to the issue at hand ... is the government capable of capturing and storing emails ... possibly ... I don't know know if the government has legal access to a gateway through which all email communication passes (and I am not quite cynical enough to assume they would do it illegally yet ;) ) ... I am even less certain as to how easy it is for them to actually read those messages with computers and turn them into actionable intelligence

If someone has a person who they want to test it on you can always try sending an email with the following phrase (I will use pig latin so the black helicopters don't come for me in the night):

illkay hetay residentpay afterway hetay ombingbay atway hetay apitalcay

If the secret service arrests the experimental subject then I change my position on this and you are entitled to an I told you so :D
 
The Eye of Sauron

Something New Under the Sun

August 18, 2012
.
The pieces come together. Within the last week I have read:

1) New software, associated with Google, will recognize customers in stores so as to offer them discounts; having your photos uploaded to allow this service will (for now) be voluntary.

2) A new surveillance system in New York will store footage from cameras in, for example, the subway, so that when an unattended package is discovered, the police can look back in time to see who left it.

3) TSA is perfecting a laser that will allow detection on travelers of trace amounts of drugs, explosives, and doubtless a wide variety of other things.

4) The government is moving toward mandating black boxes on cars to record information thought to be useful in ascribing blame in crashes.

5) Various police departments are beginning to use “drone” aircraft to monitor the population.

These are recent pieces of the coming world. They have not yet all been completely deployed and linked. Some are voluntary, for the moment. Others are in development. All are coming.

Add the now-routine tracking of passports, cameras that read every passing license plate and record the time, NSA’s automated monitoring of email, Google’s and therefore the government’s knowledge of your searches, GPS tracking of cell phones, detailed records of bank transactions, and so on. Not all of these are instantly accessible by the police. They can easily be made accessible, and they move in that direction.

In short, the technology exists for a detailed, unblinking, unforgetting watchfulness of the entire population beyond anything imagined, or perhaps imaginable, a few decades ago. This is not Fred-drank-too-much-coffee. It is happening.

The capacity of hard drives is now essentially without limit, the power of computers to sort and search infinite, and the speed of the internet no longer a bound. Almost microscopic cameras, wireless concealable microphones, face recognition, voice recognition, recording GPS: You can buy all of this in consumer stores. The government has far better.

People speak of the onrush of the police state. I think that many do not understand how fast it comes, or how thorough it will be.

The political framework falls rapidly into place. Few or no safeguards exist, and probably few are possible. A growing authoritarianism rapidly erodes what protections we had. The courts allow random searches of passengers of trains and subways without probable cause. Warrantless tapping of personal communications is rampant, or done with secret warrants from a secret federal judge. TSA has Viper squads that stop cars at random for searches. In many places it is against the law to video the police, who everywhere become more militarized and less accountable. For practical purposes, citizens have no recourse.

At a higher level of generality, America is no longer a democracy. If you think this a rash assertion, ask yourself whether you have the slightest influence over policies that matter to you. Suppose that you want to end the wars, shrink the military, end affirmative action, genuinely change education, or reform a hostile and unworkable bureaucracy. Who do you vote for? Important policies are made in faceless bureaucracies immune to public influence. National politics employs a sort of political price-fixing, in which you are permitted to choose among a number of indistinguishable candidates and told that you are having an election.

None of this is going to stop.

Why is it happening? Some suspect a vast conspiracy to Sovietize the country. I doubt it. Don’t look for a conspiracy when human nature is an adequate explanation. Presidents never want to suffer the restraints on constitutionality, the agonizing slowness of a congress that often has little understanding of the issues; if presidents can do things by fiat, or secretly, they will.

We have now had two consecutive presidents with less than normal respect for the Constitution, one a brown Plantagenet but with little grounding in European civilization, the other a privileged rich brat of limited intellect and schooling. Such as they will take any shortcut they can get away with, and there is no longer anyone to tell them no.

Men grab power when they can. Once grabbed, it stays grabbed. A police operation like DHS will always try to grow. People in power always think they know best. When a federal department has money, industry rushes to sell it things. In the case of TSA, this means new and more advanced scanners, then upgrades, and maintenance contracts, training contracts, and then a new kind of scanner, and the process repeats.

The people doing all of this are not thinking of installing totalitarianism. They are thinking dollars, promotions, power, ego, and perks.

The FBI? NSA? Federal officials in general? They know best. They are, they think, just fighting crime, terrorism, maintaining national security, what have you, and the more power they have, they better they can do this. Further, intimidating people is pleasurable. If citizens have nothing to hide, say all these cops, they have nothing to fear. If you torture terrorists, or those you think may be terrorists, well, the real world is like that. Do you want more terrorism?

A conspiracy would be preferable. You can crush a conspiracy. Human nature, which inherently drifts toward corruption, is a far tougher nut.

What difference will it make to live in a country in which the government knows everything whatever about everybody, and few safeguards against abuse exist? For most people, at first, probably not much. At first. But for people the government doesn’t like, a lot. Reporters, writers, whistle-blowers, activists, dissidents.

And we are all vulnerable. Knowledge, as someone said, is power. Few of us have spotless lives, or want them. Did you once check into a cheap motel with someone else’s spouse or a lady of the night? What do the porn sites you visit say about you? If you are, say, a politician, do you want these things to come out? Have you written compromising emails about shady deductions on your taxes, or about your boss (“a weasely dickhead and probably a latent girly-boy”)? You have bar bills or liquor purchases of $300 a week? What if you show positive on a marijuana scan at the airport, which becomes justification for a full search of your house, or dismissal from work?

Things have already reached the point at which writers of my acquaintance, who do not have the power of the Washington Post behind them, have stopped criticizing the government. Whether they are in fact in any danger of persecution—I don’t think they much are yet—almost doesn’t matter. The mere knowledge that your email can be read is intimidating, like being closely followed by a police car even when you are doing nothing wrong. We are daily being followed by more police cars, both literal and figurative.
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http://www.fredoneverything.net/Saurons_Eye.shtml
 
Langly said:
Funny thing is, I'll be looking for a couple of dogs from the utah humane society soon :). They better fix those damned books and record keeping!

/thread derail
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In only a few years, everything there is to know about Utah's pet population will be stored in a massive database, which no one will have the tools to properly access and will be so complex that it will suffer from constant system outages and extended downtime. Mwa ha ha!

<hidden evil message>Adopt a cat too.</hidden evil message> ;)
 
Human nature generally is a constant suckpit, and history repeats itself over and over.

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

Allowing for small regional fluctuations, you can take your pick from the last three - or a blend of them.
We're definitely in there though.

And some welcome it with arms wide open.
 
Begs the question, "Why bother in the first place?" And the answer to that is obvious - for personal gain. Either economic, creature comfort, status among others, or something else ends up motivating men to change the status quo. For a bit, they write the history books and applaud themselves until history forgets them and new people do the same thing over. You think they'd all just give up and watch porn instead. :)
 
Ski said:
Joe Rogan gives a real good example to numbnuts Redban at how the government can use this against any average citizen.

Skip to the 1:30:00 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmtgpcZTr8Q
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Give redban a break. He and Joe both know he is a silly man.

Anyway, there is more to it than just this little siphon. The government is methodically building a system which allows it to legally abduct any person for any reason and to use force against its own citizens. Why? Don't know yet. Seems like they are preparing for an oh shit moment of monumental purportions.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
 
Thank you Patriot Act, Military Tribunals Act, Homeland Security. Well off to plug in my Progressive Snapshot for a serious discount, yaaay!
 
SkribbelKat said:
Begs the question, "Why bother in the first place?" And the answer to that is obvious - for personal gain. Either economic, creature comfort, status among others, or something else ends up motivating men to change the status quo. For a bit, they write the history books and applaud themselves until history forgets them and new people do the same thing over. You think they'd all just give up and watch porn instead. :)
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In other words, you're a lazy fuck. :p
 
kbrickley said:
Right now it is constitutional because the SCOTUS ruled it is constitutional ... that's how the law works here ... some states have ruled it violates their State constitutions (which is their right under the constitution) ... it won't become unconstitutional again until SCOTUS changes its ruling in another case or the constitution is amended ;)
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I care very little about what the Supreme Clown Court says; I will not allow myself to be subjected to invasive bodily probes and will resist, with force, if necessary. Normally, if I get word that the police are running a checkpoint, I go out and hold signs warning motorists that they are about to be violated and that they should take another route. I've disbanded many a speedtrap this way as well (they seem to get more irritated about busting speedtraps than busting DUI checkpoints. Figures).
 
Stiletto said:
In other words, you're a lazy fuck. :p
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Skillful debate and intelligent presentation of your persepective doesn't usually mean you cuss out someone. Then again, maybe you're looking to be dismissive to fill your own pyschological needs and not trying to build credibility. Either of which is perfectly okay in my mind. *high fives* Thanks for talking with me today. It was interesting.

damicatz said:
I care very little about what the Supreme Clown Court says; I will not allow myself to be subjected to invasive bodily probes and will resist, with force, if necessary. Normally, if I get word that the police are running a checkpoint, I go out and hold signs warning motorists that they are about to be violated and that they should take another route. I've disbanded many a speedtrap this way as well (they seem to get more irritated about busting speedtraps than busting DUI checkpoints. Figures).
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I wish we could just write off the Supreme Court, but our system of laws isn't designed to allow us to ignore their rulings or their ability to set legal standards. They are the final interpertive entity in our judicial system. The good news is that holding up signs in protest is perfectly legal. If you're really out there doing stuff like that, you probably are already aware that's the case. :D
 
SkribbelKat said:
Skillful debate and intelligent presentation of your persepective doesn't usually mean you cuss out someone. Then again, maybe you're looking to be dismissive to fill your own pyschological needs and not trying to build credibility. Either of which is perfectly okay in my mind. *high fives* Thanks for talking with me today. It was interesting.



I wish we could just write off the Supreme Court, but our system of laws isn't designed to allow us to ignore their rulings or their ability to set legal standards. They are the final interpertive entity in our judicial system. The good news is that holding up signs in protest is perfectly legal. If you're really out there doing stuff like that, you probably are already aware that's the case. :D
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Your system of laws, not mine. I believe in the sovereignty of the individual and reject the notion that a government has the right to conduct invasive medical probes of your body. Anything less is slavery as it is tantamount to state ownership of our bodies. More people need to stand up and resist the growing police state that this country is becoming.
 
Monkey34 said:
Human nature generally is a constant suckpit, and history repeats itself over and over.

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

Allowing for small regional fluctuations, you can take your pick from the last three - or a blend of them.
We're definitely in there though.

And some welcome it with arms wide open.
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People need oppression to spur themselves to action. Without oppression, people would rather safety than action, and can you really blame them?

There's no such thing as absolute freedom, just what freedom those in power wish to give you up until such time as people start to rebel against it.

As long as men are controlled by other men that'll always be the ebb and flow of it.
 
damicatz said:
Your system of laws, not mine. I believe in the sovereignty of the individual and reject the notion that a government has the right to conduct invasive medical probes of your body. Anything less is slavery as it is tantamount to state ownership of our bodies. More people need to stand up and resist the growing police state that this country is becoming.
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I don't have a system of laws. No individual has laws. Those are a construct of a collective, a society and whatnot. I'm not telling you how I feel about them, but how the system is designed to work. Objecting to me about them isn't going to do anything. You should discuss your feelings with a your local representative. Lots of people have strong feelings, but never even bother to try telling their elected officials directly about their thoughts.

I wrote my local rep a long-ish e-mail about SOPA and got a thoughtful, insightful response that was actually very nice. Several weeks later, I was invited to an open forum to discuss another issue and actually got a chance to sit down and talk. It's a good thing to get involved by trying constructive routes versus being upset to some random person in a computer hardware forum.
 
damicatz said:
Your system of laws, not mine. I believe in the sovereignty of the individual and reject the notion that a government has the right to conduct invasive medical probes of your body. Anything less is slavery as it is tantamount to state ownership of our bodies. More people need to stand up and resist the growing police state that this country is becoming.
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If you live in the US then they are YOUR laws. Our constitution allows the freedom to protest those laws but many people have had to do so from within the process itself (in other words they had to go to prison to protest laws they considered unjust). As I have said I don't agree with everything our country does (I would actually be a little afraid of a person who did) but I am not acutely paranoid and distrustful of every action they make either. Unless you are David Geffen and own your own island, where you can for all intensive purposes be your own country, you are always bound by the rules and laws of the country you are in. You can try and change them (and that has certainly worked in this country before) but you ignore them at your own peril (in any state ... police or otherwise) ;)
 
kbrickley said:
(in other words they had to go to prison to protest laws they considered unjust).
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This isn't true in most cases.

Usually they chose to do more attention things that violated the law with full knowledge of the possibility of arrest which itself is more attention getting. I shed no tear for people who are arrested for that reason. Its their choice to draw more attention that people would otherwise give a crap about in a lawful protest.

Not to say there isn't any undue arrests during lawful protests. Those people do have something to complain about.
 
Happens elsewhere in the US - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/new-totalitarianism-surveillance-technology

I guess after seeing all those posts about how we in the UK "have let all this happen to us" not seem so bad now eh?

I suppose some will now deem it acceptable because its now happening to them and they can't do a damn thing about it.

Oh but as I'm told I should rise up and take back my Govt but I can't because I don't have any guns (untrue, we have plenty in the UK we just don't show them off).

Okay guys you told us what we should do. Now the shoe is on the other foot...when does the armed revolution start?

C'mon who's going first? Don't be shy you said it's the only solution for the rest of us.

Join the club.
 
AnonymousUser said:
Okay, so what are they going to give us as a solution? :D
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Have you read Orwell's 1984?

That will give you a good picture of what is to come. Also makes you aware of how things really are right now.

Short answer? A boot stamping on a human face...Forever.
 
Cyraxx said:
Don't bring out the tinfoil shit. Stuff like this has been captain obvious for at the VERY LEAST 5 years. Welcome to seeing it on the interwebs :rolleyes:
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Agreed. This is way past tin-foil hats. It's common knowledge and they are barely even trying to cover it up anymore.
 
The next generation, or perhaps the one after that, will grow up with it all, accepting it as completely normal, and acceptable.

And the government is counting on it.
 
daglesj said:
Happens elsewhere in the US - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/new-totalitarianism-surveillance-technology
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Now we know why Bloomberg's police force trotted out a law from 1845 to make sure that nobody could legally cover there face except his cops.


http://gothamist.com/2011/09/19/nypd_uses_law_from_1845_to_arrest_m.php

As the protests against corporate greed and the "occupation" of the Financial District continues for a third day, at least seven demonstrators have been arrested. According to Bloomberg News, two were arrested for trying to enter a Bank of America building, another for jumping a police barrier, and four more for "wearing masks in violation of a law that bars two or more participants from doing so." This law dates back to 1845 in the Anti-Rent era—a time when a wealthy few owned feudal-esque leases to maintain control of tenants. Absolutely nothing like today!
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I used to think RFID chips and pure digital currency would never happen...no way! The masses wouldn't allow it (it's new age slavery). Now though, I see it will easily happen with a slow well thought out transition within a generation or two (more or less). Someone will always know where you are on this planet at one point and will easily be able to stop your every move with the click of a key. Why? Because it will be normal life and if you ain't doing anything wrong you shouldn't be worried about anything else.

Today I'm crazy, tomorrow everyone knew it too...lol
 
Stiletto said:
Your radio station DJ...

...has a pretty important job...

...that directly impacts you.

Wow.
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LOL...then again, I was stranded on the road with a thrown rod one time, and a radio DJ stopped and gave me a ride home, so he impacted me that one time. Of course, it had nothing to do with his actual job.
 
BBA said:
LOL...then again, I was stranded on the road with a thrown rod one time, and a radio DJ stopped and gave me a ride home, so he impacted me that one time. Of course, it had nothing to do with his actual job.
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Not long ago, the voice heard on a radio reached thousands of eager listeners who huddled around the old console to hear news, weather, and information. Those voices were akin to modern entertainers, unqualified idiots that people worship and model themselves after, and they had the power of broadcast media behind them. While that was a bit tongue-in-cheek (mostly because I like having fun with the "guvment is srs bsns" sorts int he forum) it is still somewhat true today. One voice speaks, many ears willingly listen and are influenced. Should a DJ use her powers for evil, the world will surely crumble.
 
Related to the article and discussion about loss of freedoms (if it's real or because internet made us more aware angle):

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...spying-violated-4th-amendment-remains-secret/

We have secret courts, making secret rulings that the EFF is trying to uncover, since when was there a second secret legal system in our country? I hope not farther than ten years back because it would make a mockery of the principles our nation stands for.
 
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