NVIDIA strong arm tactics?

zero2dash

zero2dash

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
6,100
(If this isn't allowed here, feel free to move or close as necessary. Just wanted to share the link/story.)

Just noticed an article over at Tweaktown that's pretty disappointing to say the least. Luckily it doesn't seem like [H] has had these sort of issues that I can recall, and I hope that continues.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/4..._they_treat_gpu_partners_and_media/index.html

The whole story is worth a read but for cliffs -
After reading the email, I instantly knew that NVIDIA had contacted MSI before hearing anything else and applied its usual pressure. The type of pressure I am talking about is threats of cutting GPU allocation to MSI if they continue to work with TweakTown.
Click to expand...
 
This from the site that ignored NDA and posted reviews of the 660ti a week or more in advance?

Did they expect Nvidia to send them flowers?
 
Not according to the link.

The thing about this email that doesn't make much sense is the fact that it claims that we broke the MSI NDA. That wasn't the case; as I mentioned above, we posted the recent review of the MIS GTX 660 Ti Power Edition a couple minutes after the NDA expired and in the past we haven't broken other MSI video card NDAs.
Click to expand...

MSI review was posted yesterday at 9:02am PST. The NDA was (I assume) lifted as of 9:00am PST.

I do notice that they have a fairly non-descriptive "reference" review up a few weeks ago:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/48...ti_2gb_reference_video_card_review/index.html posted July 31st
To be fair though, they're not saying names or doing anything someone else hasn't already done.
Gizmodo did the same thing when they posted the review of the lost iPhone prototype.
 
Last edited:
zero2dash said:
Not according to the link.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what fairy-tale NDA they were referring to, but it's pretty clear to anyone with at least half of their brain turned on exactly when the NDA expired.

I'm sure the 2 dozen or more other review websites who actually waited until the NDA expired to submit their review would have preferred to release their review a week earlier also.

I'm not saying that Tweaktown didn't get the short end of the stick at some point, but you can't just adopt a "fuck you" attitude and be surprised when there is blow-back.
 
I gotta agree, if you pick on a bear, why get pissed when it mauls you. whether you are tweaktown, some punk band in russia, or some idoit trap in an ecuqadorin embassy, it you antognize the 900 pound gorilla don't be all indignant when the gorilla decides to maul you.
 
This is pretty low ball from nVidia for sure.

From what I gathered, they are assuming MSI was the partner that sent TweakTown the engineering sample that they based their early review on, simply because TweakTown's first partner card review released was the MSI. That's quite the assumption on nVidia's part, and a logical fallacy.

Of course, from the other side of the fence, they are probably trying to keep their partners in-line, ala Apple. So when there is any inkling of evidence that a partner has "wronged" them, they will use threats to attempt to keep them in line. Which is still low-ball.

Long story short. TweakTown didn't break NDA. Their early review was not accompanied by a signed NDA, thus there was no NDA to break. They released the MSI product review after the NDA restriction theys signed was lifted. nVidia is threatening MSI based on a false assumption that TweakTown used an MSI product to release a review before the NDA lifted. nVidia are using assumptions and strong arming where they shouldn't.
 
GotNoRice said:
I'm sure the 2 dozen or more other review websites who actually waited until the NDA expired to submit their review would have preferred to release their review a week earlier also.
Click to expand...

The reference article lists no manufacturer and basically has no pictures; there's a black box where the video card is supposed to be.

They posted a review maybe early, but they didn't throw the person or company they got the card from under the bus.

NVIDIA decides to pull a dick move and go after MSI just because MSI gave Tweaktown a TwinFrozr card to do the review for yesterday. Sorry, that's still a dick move.

And here's something even more interesting -
This thread was started 7/27 referencing a Maximum PC article showing where Sweclockers leaked the card on 7/26 which is 5 days before Tweaktown.
 
Last edited:
GotNoRice said:
I'm not sure what fairy-tale NDA they were referring to, but it's pretty clear to anyone with at least half of their brain turned on exactly when the NDA expired.

I'm sure the 2 dozen or more other review websites who actually waited until the NDA expired to submit their review would have preferred to release their review a week earlier also.
Click to expand...

If they didn't get the card from NVIDIA, what NDA is there to respect? None. "Pretty clear to anyone with at least half of their brain turned on", no?

GotNoRice said:
I'm not saying that Tweaktown didn't get the short end of the stick at some point, but you can't just adopt a "fuck you" attitude and be surprised when there is blow-back.
Click to expand...

Now it's clear you didn't even read the article.

This went on for years and we were put into a position where if we wanted a launch day review of a new GPU, we really had to fight for it, beyond on what we thought was reasonable. We had to work with NVIDIA partners to get a review sample if we wanted one at all.
Click to expand...

They got "the short end of the stick" for years in a row, not "at some point".



How anyone can (still) defend NVIDIA, is beyond me.
 
On forums there are always users ready to jump in and defend Mega Corp, usually using the same asinine "thinking" as examplified by ikarinokami above. Who knows what goes on in their tiny little minds. Perhaps they're from Kentucky or some other backwards hell-hole.

I think tech sites should eschew NDAs all together. You may be a week "late" in some cases, but as often as not you'll be a week early. And you'll always be able to tell the honest truth without having to even think about hurting some sort of PR relationship.

Of course, it means less access and no swag-bags, so not holding my breath....
 
Raudulfr said:
If they didn't get the card from NVIDIA, what NDA is there to respect? None. "Pretty clear to anyone with at least half of their brain turned on", no?



Now it's clear you didn't even read the article.



They got "the short end of the stick" for years in a row, not "at some point".



How anyone can (still) defend NVIDIA, is beyond me.
Click to expand...

there is nothing to defendant. tweaktown decided to start this war, many years ago, and nvidia has a long memory. they have themselves to blame, they screwed poeple years ago, it worked and they got traffic, however nvidia has choosen not to let it go.

all they are doing is whining, they benifited from breaking ndas years ago, and now because they are "big time" they would like nvidia to let it go. well guess what nvidia has no reason to let it go, and i find it hypocritical that they are calling out nvidia for unfair tactics when it's they underhanded breaking an NDA years ago that started this.
 
So what if they broke an NDA years ago? Were they only site to ever break an NDA? No.

Just goes to show how petty, resentful and grudge holding NVIDIA is. They're a big corporation yet they can afford to waste time (and money) in petty bickering? Really? They need to grow up.
 
ikarinokami said:
they are calling out nvidia for unfair tactics when it's they underhanded breaking an NDA years ago that started this.
Click to expand...

They didn't break any NDA's, period. Now or years ago.

This which links several others including this which links the actual TT article here that states:
Since NVIDIA sent us nothing on the GTX 680 codenamed "Kepler" - no press deck, no whitepaper, no conference call information, no sample, no NDA date - absolutely nothing - we're kind of winging it here. Something we don't really like to do. But when I woke up this morning again with no information from NVIDIA, I was just over it and decided to knock this review over straight away as clearly we weren't going to hear anything from them. How is that for professionalism? (Ed: Shocking!)

We've sent countless email and the fact this is going up before NDA time is going to annoy a lot of people. In our defense, we don't actually know the NDA time because NVIDIA Taiwan won't respond. Plus, I'm personally just past caring about it anymore. Our relationship with NVIDIA is so broken that it doesn't matter what we do, they have no interest in dealing with us on a professional level. Due to the region NVIDIA North America won't deal with us and NVIDIA Taiwan just don't like us and / or don't want to work with us at all.
Click to expand...

You tell me....when a site is able to get physical parts, outside of the manufacturer, and receives 0 contact from said manufacturer regarding any NDA's (even though they really don't have to follow an NDA when they're buying a part as opposed to being given a part for review purposes along with an NDA contract to fulfill)....what exactly should they do? Sit on their hands and post nothing until every other site out there does?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while news is a strong point on why a website such as TT or [H] or any of them exist...surely earning revenue is another major point? They post something before most other sites, without an NDA to follow, and they get hits and revenue from those hits. Where exactly is there an NDA violation?

Someone else claims TT also broke NDA with Intel. Again, false.
Editor Note: Intel or GIGABYTE did not sanction this preview in any way. We are posting this well ahead of launch since some other well-known tech sites have already covered Ivy Bridge performance and the CPU is readily available and for sale right now.
Click to expand...

[H] has done this also...i5 750. Same thing....Kyle bought retail parts and posted reviews. You buy a product, there is no NDA. Surely you can understand this?
So just how do we have this information for you here today considering that we are under a non-disclosure agreement with Intel when it comes to the new Core i5 processor? Well, you just go buy one online from Fry’s!
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Raudulfr said:
If they didn't get the card from NVIDIA, what NDA is there to respect? None. "Pretty clear to anyone with at least half of their brain turned on", no?
Click to expand...

They might not have signed it but it was obvious that there still was one. It may even be that their beef against Nvidia is legitimate, but you can't provoke them like that and expect them to not bite back.
 
^
^
They started off by leaking the MSI 8800GT review early and broke the NDA they signed which resulted in nVidia excluding them from media events and being sent review sample cards.
 
TweakTown is a half-ass run site that does anything to get hits. That kind of lack of professionalism is catching up with them.
 
I would fully accept the concept that Nvidia would get pissed off about a manufacturer handing out un-authorized samples prior to NDA being lifted. If the receiver posts data after getting one of these un-authorized devices, then Nvidia should certainly step in and firmly smack down the manufacturer for essentially breaking their own NDA.
 
I wouldnt be surprised, this sort of thing goes on ALL the time in big business, esp in the cutthroat world of technology.

"Do this and we won't give you that".....etc etc.

Do I care? Not really. Doesnt change the [H] benchmarks that determine my purchasing.
 
Tweaktown it trying to make this about them. Nvidia is upset with MSI for leaking cards. I'm sure that selling kepler cards with software voltage control doesn't help matters.
 
Tweaktown may not have signed an NDA, but the supplier of the cards certainly did!
That is why TweakTown avoided doing any tests which might reveal who they are, because they KNOW it breaks the NDA for their supplier.
TweakTown is not quite the "innocent victim" they claim to be.
 
GotNoRice said:
They might not have signed it but it was obvious that there still was one. It may even be that their beef against Nvidia is legitimate, but you can't provoke them like that and expect them to not bite back.
Click to expand...

Logic fail, please try again.
 
Tweaktown posted a review of the MSI card 2 minutes after the NDA lifted. Obviously MSI sent the card to them a minimum of a few days earlier which is in violation of the NDA between nVidia and MSI. This is why nVidia is pissed at MSI and rightfully so.

Folks making nVidia out to be the bad guy here are clueless as to how a NDA works.
 
ikarinokami said:
I gotta agree, if you pick on a bear, why get pissed when it mauls you. whether you are tweaktown, some punk band in russia, or some idoit trap in an ecuqadorin embassy, it you antognize the 900 pound gorilla don't be all indignant when the gorilla decides to maul you.
Click to expand...

OMG! I don't want to get into a big OT discussion, but I can't believe you would clump Pussy Riot, Assange, and Tweaktown into the same sentence. :eek:

On topic, this is not new news between Tweaktown and nVidia. It's been going on for a while. I can understand MSI's position. They give TT a review sample, even though TT and nVidia are having some sort of spat, and they release an early review of an anonymous 660ti. It does seem dodgy. If I were high up in MSI, higher up the ladder than say the person who allocates review samples, and I got an email/phone call from someone high up in nVidia saying there's a site who ignores NDA's and they would like for them not to get review samples, just as a common courtesy to my business partner I'd stop supplying samples to them. I'd suggest to the site if they would like to continue to receive samples that they sort the situation with nVidia. If I respected the site I might even offer to open the door for them, seeing as how I was already stuck in the middle and these sorts of things are not good for anyone in the end.
 
From what I can gather of what has happened, nvidia may have initially ignored TT (when they were young) because they did not want to/could not give every Tom, Dick and Harry tech site a review card. In turn, TT got frustrated over time and irate at nvidia, thus sourcing out cards from anonymous vendors & posting reviews early.

Sure, they may have not signed a NDA contract with nvidia and thus not bound by the NDA dates (don't know if that is true), but if they wanted to foster a better relationship with nvidia, surely they should have abided by NDA dates anyway in order to not get on Nvidia's shit list.

Granted, TT may not have had all the product info before hand (marketing material, documents etc), but if they could somehow get cards early, its hard to believe they could not find out any NDA info either.

All in all, bad behavior from both sides.
-Nvidia for ignoring/dismissing TT, & possibly "threatening" partner AIB's as a control tool.
-TT for obviously breaking NDA's in order to "stick it" to the man out of frustration (and I'm also sure for more website traffic).
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
unless it's in writing and signed, NDA don't mean squat. Want to try again?
Click to expand...

What world do you live in? Even if they didn't technically violate NDA, what did you think Nvidia's reaction would be?

"Well, they never actually signed an NDA, so I guess it's okay." ???

They are playing hardball with Nvidia, and Nvidia is playing back. It really is that simple.

Let's put it another way: What other options does Nvidia have? Or do you expect them to just sit back and do nothing when a single website is constantly spoiling their product launches?

Not that I'm expecting anything more than another cheap one-liner in response from you. :rolleyes:
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
unless it's in writing and signed, NDA don't mean squat. Want to try again?
Click to expand...

MSI certainly signed something... and should have included it with what they sent to TT. TT is all about page hits; they generated quite a few by posting their "spoiler" two weeks early and now they're getting more hits for their tirade about nVidia.
 
Nvida is going to bully too many vendors one day and find that no one is willing to sell their product.

Look at what they did to XFX...they would not conform to what Nvidia wanted ( kind of like make'n MSI putting out New BIOS so no matter what the voltage is limited )

Getting to the pointt that if others ever get close to the perfomace of Nvidia I will jump ship just for these reasons.........
 
GotNoRice said:
What world do you live in? Even if they didn't technically violate NDA, what did you think Nvidia's reaction would be?

"Well, they never actually signed an NDA, so I guess it's okay." ???

They are playing hardball with Nvidia, and Nvidia is playing back. It really is that simple.

Let's put it another way: What other options does Nvidia have? Or do you expect them to just sit back and do nothing when a single website is constantly spoiling their product launches?

Not that I'm expecting anything more than another cheap one-liner in response from you. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Reality, you cannot enforce a NDA on company C(Tweak Town) that is between company A (Nvidia) and B (MSI) unless company C signed a NDA with company B enforcing NDA between company A and B.
 
JohnnyH24 said:
MSI certainly signed something... and should have included it with what they sent to TT. TT is all about page hits; they generated quite a few by posting their "spoiler" two weeks early and now they're getting more hits for their tirade about nVidia.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head... Unfortunately MSI didn't pass the NDA down to TT and Nvidia has no leg to stand on when dealing with TT as Nvidia did not directly provide them the card to TT

TT did not sign a NDA agreement with Nvidia or MSI and that is where the problem is. MSI messed up.
 
Last edited:
Its definitely TweakTowns fault. Feel a bit sorry for MSI as they sent them a card for review and TweakTown reviewed it too early putting MSI in the shit. (Surely MSI would have included the time it could be posted about with the card ) Hopefully MSI will learn from this and stop dealing with TweakTown.

NVIDIA has every right to be pissed at both of them.
 
bytes said:
Its definitely TweakTowns fault. Feel a bit sorry for MSI as they sent them a card for review and TweakTown reviewed it too early putting MSI in the shit. (Surely MSI would have included the time it could be posted about with the card ) Hopefully MSI will learn from this and stop dealing with TweakTown.

NVIDIA has every right to be pissed at both of them.
Click to expand...

Prove it.

Prove that it was MSI that sent them the card 3-4 weeks early that they then reviewed 2 weeks ago.

Sure, MSI obviously did send them a card, but they could have sent it to them the night before - judging by the quality of their reviews, this is rather plausible.
 
I cant, but it makes it look like the earlier review before the NDA had passed where they didn't say the make of the card, was a card by MSI. The fact their first review of the 660 TI comes 2 minutes after the NDA has passed and its a card by MSI does look dodgy.

If i was at NVIDIA id be thinking it was MSI that leaked the card to TweakTown.

TweakTown by leaking a review before the NDA has passed has stolen a lot of web hits from it's competitors, so they are not the good guy's they are making out to be.
 
bytes said:
If i was at NVIDIA id be thinking it was MSI that leaked the card to TweakTown.
Click to expand...

This is the problem. NVIDIA, without any real proof, basically told MSI that they would be completely cut off from all NVIDIA products in the future for something they can't even verify actually happened. I don't think NVIDIA would ever consider actually doing that - can you imagine the backlash when the Lightning version of the top end cards no longer exists? I am truly disappointed in NVIDIA for this.

While I don't agree with TT and their methods and them even breaking NDA (or not breaking it however you see it), its bullshit that NVIDIA would throw their weight around like this. They are just being big babies about everything - fucking give TT a card and an NDA and call it a day - takes 2min to do it and everyone comes out happy in the end.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
You hit the nail on the head... Unfortunately MSI didn't pass the NDA down to TT and Nvidia has no leg to stand on when dealing with TT as Nvidia did not directly provide them the card to TT

TT did not sign a NDA agreement with Nvidia or MSI and that is where the problem is. MSI messed up.
Click to expand...

You're trying to make this all about the NDA.

Regardless of them not having signed an NDA, tweaktown still has a history of leaking product reviews early.

For this reason alone, not having anything to do with an NDA, and even if tweaktown didn't do anything technically wrong, nvidia still has reason to want to deny them access to cards in the future.

You act like Nvidia shouldn't be mad that Tweaktown is constantly spoiling their launches. They should be mad, and they are.
 
In my view review sites should use retail samples to do reviews.

They also should deliberatly not report bugs to special contacts they have and test the normal consumer support channels as part of any review to see if any bugs get resolved, as the average consumer doesnt have a direct contact within nvidia to get bugs raised.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
Reality, you cannot enforce a NDA on company C(Tweak Town) that is between company A (Nvidia) and B (MSI) unless company C signed a NDA with company B enforcing NDA between company A and B.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense. Here is how it actually works:

  1. TweakTown breaks embargos regularly
  2. NVIDIA doesn't send them review samples
  3. MSI gives TweakTown a review sample with no NDA
  4. NVIDIA tells MSI to stop that

Pretty simple. Tweak Town is burning some bridges.
 
obs said:
This makes no sense. Here is how it actually works:

  1. TweakTown breaks embargos regularly
  2. NVIDIA doesn't send them review samples
  3. MSI gives TweakTown a review sample with no NDA
  4. NVIDIA tells MSI to stop that

Pretty simple. Tweak Town is burning some bridges.
Click to expand...

lol re read what i said, the problem is MSI messed up
 
Were the benchmarks that were released early the same scores as when the NDA lifted and the MSI card was shown?

Also, if TT had released reviews of multiple vendors when the NDA lifted do you still think Nvidia would have taken the same action?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top