I can't stand input lag at all. I won't tolerate it for surfing the web.
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Best 30 inch LCD?
- Thread starter foodfightr
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I can't stand input lag at all. I won't tolerate it for surfing the web.
How would you notice input lag while surfing the web? I own multiple LG and Samsung panels, and never noticed input lag while surfing the web on any of them. On the other hand, my Samsung 204T and 243T are much nicer to look at than any of the LG panels (Dell 2001FP, 30" Apple, and Dell 3008WFP) - smooth whites with no sparkle or grain like you get on LG.
My 2407WFP (v.A03) is an S-PVA panel and it looks fantastic. I've never calibrated it, but don't notice any lag, ghosting, etc. I play COD4, Crysis, Gears of War and others on my 2407 all the time with no problems at all. Admittedly, I've been using LCDs exclusively since 2003, so maybe I'd understand better if I tried these games on a good CRT. Of course, I dare not 'cuz I prefer to live in blissful ignorance rather than have all my misguided notions crushed. What am I missing about the drawbacks of PVA vs. IPS?
You are not necessarily right. Dan_D is correct. You get what you pay for, and of course there are difference between LCD panels. Put some Vizio or low cost panel in comparison with some Sony XBR or Samsung. Both LCD. If you don't see the difference, then you might want to get your eyes checked.
Trust me. I can tell the difference. Some monitors have it and some don't. There was an older Dell 19" monitor I had at work that I noticed horrid input lag on. This was a model from a few years ago. I also never said that the Samsung monitor had input lag. Though the technology it uses is generally known for that.
I have several panels at home and one of which is an S-PVA panel and I don't have input lag with it. Though sitting next to my S-IPS panels I can see the difference in color reproduction. The S-PVA is FAR inferior.
Again not every panel is going to have input lag and not all people will even notice it if they do. S-PVA and TN are fast in terms of response time so ghosting won't generally be a problem. As far as the real difference between PVA and IPS it is all in the color reproduction. At least that's the real tell-tale sign that I always notice and can't get past.
Ok, now that it's settled that ghosting and lag time are not inherent in PVA technology, only color reproduction is left. Care to educate us on what's inherently wrong with PVA color reproduction exactly? I don't see much difference between the colors on my Samsung and LG panels, and I'm definitely not color blind.
For example, I didn't see much difference in color reproduction between the Samsung 305T (PVA) and the 30" Apple (IPS). The IPS panel in my 3008WFP has better colors, but this is a new-generation panel. I would need to compare that against the latest and greatest from Samsung, or maybe LG indeed managed to pull ahead of Samsung, but this by itself doesn't mean that IPS is inherently better than PVA.
Some info I found on another site.
S-PVA vs. S-IPS
There are several particular characteristics about these two LCD types which are of interest to a creative professional. One such characteristic is the viewing angle. Don't believe marketing numbers... "170 degrees" does not mean the image will look good at 170 degrees. The clear winner in this category is S-IPS, hands down.
S-PVA screens begin to exhibit an unacceptable gamma shift when only a couple degrees off-center. Yep, a couple degrees. So, if you were viewing or working on an image that had a lot of dark colors, you would begin to see an unnatural gamma boost in the dark areas as you moved your head off center. Basically, your eyes have to be dead-center on the image to see its true colors. What if you are working on a large image that takes up most of the screen? Too bad! You'll get some exercise constantly moving your head around to be centered over the image.
S-IPS, on the other hand, will retain much more accurate gamma levels even at extreme angles.
This characteristic is something I've witnessed first-hand... the studio I work for uses Dell 2405's, and every artist complains about this phenomenon. Not such a big deal when you're just surfing the web, but very important when editing images.
Note... the following characteristics are not ones I can verify firsthand, because I can't do a side-by-side comparison at work. But they are pretty much the consensus among the info I found online.
Another issue that seems to plague S-PVA screens is inaccurate color. S-PVA screens generally are known for their bright, saturated colors... which is great for selling to the average consumer, but "brighter and more saturated" is not necessarily the best thing for graphics pros! In fact, the 2405's at work have all been calibrated with a hardware Spyder system, and in an effort to force the PVA screen towards more accurate color, the brightness is almost all the way down. S-IPS seems to be regarded as more accurate.
And finally, despite marketing numbers, many people have also reported better response times with S-IPS screens than with S-PVA. I think this trait is more dependent on the manufacturer, though.
So what are the weaknesses of S-IPS? The only consequential one (besides a slightly higher price,) is that S-IPS technology is limited in the contrast ratio it can produce. This results in some people claiming they can't get "true" blacks from their screen. However, I think this also has a lot to do with the manufacturer.
Info from wikipedia
IPS
IPS (in-plane switching) was developed by Hitachi in 1996 to improve on the poor viewing angles and color reproduction of TN panels. Most also support true 8-bit color. These improvements came at a loss of response time, which was initially on the order of 50ms. IPS panels were also extremely expensive.
IPS has since been superseded by S-IPS (Super-IPS, Hitachi in 1998), which has all the benefits of IPS technology with the addition of improved pixel refresh timing. Though color reproduction approaches that of CRTs, the contrast ratio remains relatively weak. S-IPS technology is widely used in panel sizes of 20" and above. LG and Philips remain one of the main manufacturers of S-IPS based panels.
AS-IPS Advanced Super IPS, also developed by Hitachi in 2002, improves substantially on the contrast ratio of traditional S-IPS panels to the point where they are second only to some S-PVAs. AS-IPS is also a term used for NEC displays (e.g., NEC LCD20WGX2) based on S-IPS technology, in this case, developed by LG.Philips.
A-TW-IPS Advanced True White IPS, developed by LG.Philips LCD for NEC, is a custom S-IPS panel with a TW (True White) color filter to make white look more natural and to increase color gamut. This is used in professional/photography LCDs.
H-IPS Released sometime late 2006, was the H-IPS panel which is an evolution of the IPS panel which improves upon its predecessor, the S-IPS panel. The H-IPS panel can be seen in the NEC LCD2690WUXi, Mitsubishi RDT261W 26″ LCD and Apple's newest Aluminum 24" iMac.
So to sum up, the pros/cons of the H-IPS over the S-IPS:
Pros:
Much less backlight bleed.
No purple hue visible at an angle
Backlight bleed improves looking at an angle
Less noise or glitter seen on the panel surface (smoother surface)
Cons:
Still some backlight bleed in areas that are green.
Viewing angles may have sacrificed in order to improve pros.
Image of a (switched on) transreflective color TFT LCD taken under a microscope with reflected light illumination lamp off (top, self-illumination only) and on (bottom).Fringe Field Switching is a technique to accomplish wider viewing angle and transmittance on IPS displays.
MVA
MVA (multi-domain vertical alignment) was originally developed in 1998 by Fujitsu as a compromise between TN and IPS. It achieved fast pixel response (at the time), wide viewing angles, and high contrast at the cost of brightness and color reproduction. Modern MVA panels can offer wide viewing angles (second only to S-IPS technology), good black depth, good color reproduction and depth, and fast response times thanks to the use of RTC technologies. There are several "next generation" technologies based on MVA, including AU Optronics' P-MVA and A-MVA, as well as Chi Mei Optoelectronics' S-MVA.
Analysts predicted that MVA would corner the mainstream market, but instead, TN has risen to dominance. A contributing factor was the higher cost of MVA, along with its slower pixel response (which rises dramatically with small changes in brightness). Cheaper MVA panels can also use dithering/FRC.
PVA
PVA (patterned vertical alignment) and S-PVA (super patterned vertical alignment) are alternative versions of MVA technology offered by Samsung. Developed independently, it offers similar features to MVA, but boasts very high contrast ratios such as 3000:1. Value-oriented PVA panels also use dithering/FRC. S-PVA panels all use at least true 8-bit color electronics and do not use any color simulation methods. S-PVA panels offered by Eizo (at least newer ones) use even 10-bit color internally, which enables gamma and other corrections without banding. PVA and S-PVA can offer good black depth, wide viewing angles and S-PVA can offer additionally fast response times thanks to modern RTC technologies.
Sometimes MVA and PVA type displays are categorized as VA type displays.
rinaldo00,
Thanks for the info, but these are the unscientific impressions of an artist who examined a very limited number of LCDs. His comment that IPS panels are capable of only lower contrast ratios than PVA is obsolete, and I don't see why his other comments should be taken seriously. All this business with "dependent on the manufacturer" doesn't make sense either. Excuse me, but it simply sounds like the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Both IPS and PVA technologies keep advancing at a similar, but not identical, rate from generation to generation. Sometimes one is ahead of the other in some areas, but then it is matched or superseded by the other. For example, the LM300WQ5 30" IPS panel from LG (the one used in the Dell 3008WFP) is better than the LTM300M1P01 panel from Samsung (the one used in the 305T) in many ways, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is matched by the new LTM300M1P02 panel from Samsung. Both companies keep cranking out a new generation of panels every year or two.
Thanks for the info, but these are the unscientific impressions of an artist who examined a very limited number of LCDs. His comment that IPS panels are capable of only lower contrast ratios than PVA is obsolete, and I don't see why his other comments should be taken seriously. All this business with "dependent on the manufacturer" doesn't make sense either. Excuse me, but it simply sounds like the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Both IPS and PVA technologies keep advancing at a similar, but not identical, rate from generation to generation. Sometimes one is ahead of the other in some areas, but then it is matched or superseded by the other. For example, the LM300WQ5 30" IPS panel from LG (the one used in the Dell 3008WFP) is better than the LTM300M1P01 panel from Samsung (the one used in the 305T) in many ways, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is matched by the new LTM300M1P02 panel from Samsung. Both companies keep cranking out a new generation of panels every year or two.
Well one characteristic that should not be dependent on the manufacturer or the generation of panel and is the defining difference between S-IPS and S-PVA is the comment about the gamma shift and its dependency on even slight changes in viewing angles. Are you saying that you do not see any evidence of this gamma shift on the Samsung panel? Because if there is any evidence that darker areas start to look lighter just by moving your head a few inches to your left or right and viewing slightly off center, I believe that would be the defining characteristic that is "inherently wrong" with PVA color reproduction as compared to S-IPS.
You are welcome. Heck, I own a S-PVA panel (the XHD3000) and I am very happy, yet the 'experts' would say since it isn't a S-IPS panel it is crap. Luckily I am not a graphics professional.
CubicleGeek
Limp Gawd
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Funny thing is... I used to think the exact same thing with my 2405, I thought it looked fantastic - likewise with the dual Samsung 173P's I ran before that. Then I picked up the 3007WFP. Running the 2405 as my second monitor and having it side-by-side, it looks like complete and utter crud compared to big brother. I guess if you really have no reference point and are happy with what you have, it's good enough. Ignorance is bliss applies very well to this situation. Personally, after owning an S-IPS screen, it's very difficult to go back.
Makes a lot of sense. I'm leaning in favor of the 3007WFP-HC, but am holding off until more news of the 2708WFP is available.
Yes, subtle differences, but not to pay double for a monitor. Also, not everybody has 20/20 vision. I do. I can tell differences between 2 monitors. Even within 2 monitors of the same brand and model one would appear too look different somehow. But the emphesis here is what you get for your money and the use for. Majority of computer users don't use a 30 incher. Professionals have paid always a premium for Sony monitors claiming that sony is the best and greatest in the industry. Remember the debate Sony vs. NEC monitors? Aperture Grill vs. shadow mask? Sony use to charge an arm and a leg for their aperture grill monitors and even having 2 horizontal lines in the middle of the screen some people would bet their life that sony monitors image looked night and day better than NEC shadow mask monitors. NEC monitors image looked great also. I had both of them.
I'm the same way. Once you go S-IPS you never go back.
DO NOT pay attention! They always come and say that the product they buy is better than whatever you have. Just buy whatever you can afford and enjoy it. Either they buy it on credit, which is not their own money and live in debt for ever or are rich which did not work for their money either.
I remember being very happy with my monochrome no name monitor that a friend of mine gave me and that just displays text.
DO NOT pay attention! They always come and say that the product they buy is better than whatever you have. Just buy whatever you can afford and enjoy it. Either they buy it on credit, which is not their own money and live in debt for ever or are rich which did not work for their money either.
I remember being very happy with my monochrome no name monitor that a friend of mine gave me and that just displays text.
I don't buy on credit and I'm not rich either. In any case I agree that if you are happy with something than great. However what's best is often NOT subjective. You need to understand that on a technical level S-IPS panels are BETTER than S-PVA panels. This is not subjective, it is fact. The difference probably won't get noticed by most people and some people won't be willing to pay the cost difference for the S-IPS panel and that is fine.
It isn't always a matter of people thinking what they have is automatically better. In this case it seems more like everyone trying to justify what they purchased to everyone else. That's quite a bit off topic as the question in this thread has probably already been satisfactorily answered. The question was "Which 30" LCD is the best?" and the answer is simple. It will be a monitor using the most modern S-IPS panel such as the Dell 3008WFP. The technical data backs this up and the graphics professionals choose monitors like the Dell 3007WFP, 3007WFP-HC and 3008WFP for a reason. For them the choice is obvious as for color reproduction no S-PVA design can compare.
For those of you who are happy with your S-PVA panels, good for you. No one said you shouldn't be happy with them. However I'd wager that if you stuck a Dell 3007WFP-HC or 3008WFP next to your 30" S-PVA panels then you'd understand what the rest of us have been trying to tell you.
McCartney
Gawd
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You guys are slaggin' "PVAs" pretty bad...
All I know is my 275T smokes my 1st gen Apple Cinema 30" Display in PQ and Response time.
That's just my observation though.
All I know is my 275T smokes my 1st gen Apple Cinema 30" Display in PQ and Response time.
That's just my observation though.
S-IPS doesn't have the best response time. This is also a known fact and it really is the single largest drawback of S-IPS technology. Still even the old LG panels like the one used in the Apple Cinema 30" and the Dell 3007WFP are fast enough for playing games and they do a decent job of handling video playback. At the time they were released they were the best monitors money could buy. Today they are still good, but obviously newer technology has eclipsed them in a number of categories. Picture quality is somewhat subjective, but what you are saying is possible. Also isn't the 275T a smaller monitor than the 30" Apple and Dell monitors?
foodfightr
Limp Gawd
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No new Apple Cinema displays announced during the MacWorld keynote.
I don't know about 30" S-IPS and S-PVA panels, but I know for sure that the Dell 2407WFP that I have sitting in my office looks much better than Dell 3008WFP that I have sitting in my home.
- I see sparkles on 3008WFP, but not on 2407WFP.
- There is obvious backlight leakage in the corners in 3008WFP, but nothing apparent in 2407WFP.
- No dead pixels on 2407WFP (which is around 6 months old), but already 1 blue stuck pixel on my 3008WFP after a week of usage.
I have a friend who has a Samsung 305T and he says it looks impeccable. He uses it for photography, games, excel docs, web design, live tv, etc. No dead pixels, super clear, super nice pure whites and blacks, no backlight leakage. He paid about $1,100.00 shipped.
I have a friend who has a Samsung 305T and he says it looks impeccable. He uses it for photography, games, excel docs, web design, live tv, etc. No dead pixels, super clear, super nice pure whites and blacks, no backlight leakage. He paid about $1,100.00 shipped.
As far as I can tell the reviews also pointed to 305T being the best 30 inch. I thought Dell 3008WFP will improve over that, but obviously thats not the case and that seemed to be confirmed by the reivews which have rated 3008WFP quite low. Hopefully, we will get some reviews on NEC 3090WQXi as well.
Damn, $1100 is a helluva price for the 305T!I have a friend who has a Samsung 305T and he says it looks impeccable. He uses it for photography, games, excel docs, web design, live tv, etc. No dead pixels, super clear, super nice pure whites and blacks, no backlight leakage. He paid about $1,100.00 shipped.
Maybe, and if true I'll switch. But my XHD3000 has a better scaler, nicer menu system, PIP, no noticable input lag or ghosting on FPS or movies, and 0 dead pixels or backlight bleed. The color on the 3008WFP would have to be a huge improvement to counter the rest.
The reviews I read said that the Samsung 305T out of the box looked better than the 3007WFP-HC out of the box since the Dell has bad factory calibration. A properly calibrated Dell looks better. Maybe you should get your 3008 professionally calibrated.
Just because your XHD3000 doesn't have ghosting or lag doens't mean that the 3008WFP does. As for the scaler I can't say. Does anyone actually know what scaler is even in the Dell 3008WFP? As for the menu system I don't care. It isn't as if I access the menu system daily. I set things and I'm done with it until I have a reason to check something. In fact. I've got no dead pixels and there is no reason to believe you'd have them on the 3008WFP. As for PIP I don't really care about that personally.
To each their own I guess. I'm not suggesting you purchase a 3008WFP for comparisons but the 3008WFP isn't any less of a monitor or inferior to your XHD3000 simply because you own the latter.
True, but you seem to claim the opposite, that the XHD3000 is inferior to the 3008WFP without seeing either one. Extremetech reviewed both, and while they were impessed with the Dell's PC image, the other inputs were less impressive, same with the scaler. Extremetech said this " Unfortunately, Dell isn't disclosing what video processor is being used, except to say that it's not a Silicon Optix HQV processor. " so odds are it is inferior.
A S-IPS panel does not a guarantee great monitor. Maybe the 3007WFP-HC or the new NEC is the way to go.
True, that's why I said no noticeable lag. Maybe I just got used to it.
How do you calibrate these monitors?
You need calibation tools, such as GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display 2, or ColorVision Spyder2. This article has some reviews
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm
Those are the way professionals do it, and are the most accurate. You can do it by eye, though it is more time consuming.
Try this site
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
I'm comparing the technology between the two and sorry but S-PVA is inferior to S-IPS. I'm not saying the Dell 3008WFP's implementation is worth a shit, but if I had to buy one or the other blind, I'd go with the Dell. Every PVA based monitor I've ever used sucked compared to my old school 3007WFP.
For graphics professionals that need color acuracy perhaps. For the others there are other features that can make a monitor with a S-PVA panel a better choice than a monitor with a S-IPS panel.
I have read a ton of monitor reviews on a ton of sites. Sometimes monitors with S-PVA panels are rated higher than monitors with S-IPS panels. Are all of those reviews wrong?
Technologically speaking the only advantage S-PVA really has over S-IPS is response time. Yes they are better but the S-IPS panels have come a long way in this area and are certainly good enough for gaming. As for the reviews they are often not all directly comparable to each other. I haven't read all the same reviews you have. What I know is mainly based on what I know of the technology and what I've seen in person. The picture quality is largely up to the specific panel and the design of the overal monitor. I'm speaking in terms of absolute terms here. The absolute is that PVA sucks for color reproduction and input lag is a problem with the technology as well.
I'm sure there are terrible S-IPS monitors out there and outstanding S-PVA monitors as well. So it is logical to assume that some sites may find some S-PVA monitors superior to certain S-IPS monitors. Again you'd have to give me specific reviews to look at and specific models to compare. Even then I might disagree with those reviews completely after comparing the two monitors in person.