Like I said, both my itx cases are full size ATX, so it's really easy and relatively cheap. Downside is the wire/cable length is more than necessary. Thinking of just buying some tools to build my own molex connectors and make them exact fit, benefit is I can use it in any case not just ITX and would make sleeving super simple.
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ATX vs mATX vs ITX
- Thread starter 1337Goat
- Start date
The KI Cerberus is potentially the best example of how irrelevant mATX has become over the past ~3 years, as the original Cerberus mATX design was overshadowed by the Cerberus-X ATX - an "accidental" variation that was clearly the better option as soon as drafts of it were shown in the Cerberus thread over on SFF.
19.6L mATX vs 23.4L ATX - the only thing the Cerberus can claim is "True SFF" since it's >20L, but that's a fairly hollow victory with proper context! There's only one mATX I can think of that was really interesting within this time frame but didn't end up in production - Project Orthrus. ~15.5L, but it was originally concinved in a time when dual GPUs were still largely viable. To me, one of the best mATX designs was the TJ08-E from back in 2011, and even that was 30.2L - though for that time it was relatively compact. Now that there are excellent ATX cases in the 38-42L with no real compromises (besides the optical drive you mention in this thread, though the FT05 at 46L has a slot loader), it's hard to see the benefit of mATX anywhere really.
I didn't know you want UHD drives. What for?
Anyway, I found $100 external ones but what about this one?
https://www.wish.com/ca/product/usb...-1087xpvistalaptoppc-5e0dba8b625d430246884ce6
Other people have different needs/wants than you. Too many people on the net don't understand that their viewpoint isn't the only one.
Not everyone is looking for the smallest thing possible, nor needs what the biggest option offers.
For me mATX is in the Goldilocks zone. One is needlessly big (ATX), while one is too small and limited (ITX), while one is just right (mATX).
YMMV
I rip Blu Ray discs and put them on my Plex server to watch. Your link goes to a 404 page. Also be careful with non name branded I've seen a bunch claim UHD support but when you read the reviews people buying them say they don't actually read UHD discs.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/Archgon-Premium-Aluminum-External-Apple-MacBook/dp/B07BC9F98J
Some people had luck, others not. Some were able to revert firmware to add support. So many hoops to jump through just to hope you are lucky after spending $120 on a drive. I see this a lot when searching, so far I haven't had enough confidence to take the plunge and since I have 2 towers with UHD drives there is no pressing reason to either.
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If one was always better they wouldn't all exist.
I wonder what we would come up with, if starting from scratch today, with modern power and heat budgets, and not using decades old legacy card cage standards, from when cards only used a few watts and didn't even have passive heat sinks.
Standards are great until they hold you back from better, more optimal designs.
Agreed, we could absolutely do better, but I feel nobody is in a rush to try to push new standards requiring new everything (new MB, case, PSU at the very least, not to mention and add on cards like GPU, NIC, and possibly drives as well. Imagine if you could buy a GPU and slap it into the MB and add whatever amount of gddr6 you wanted, then slap a nice tower cooler or block similar to your CPU. I know servers are partially there, but not exactly.
IdiotInCharge
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See mobile workstation / gaming laptops as well as gaming consoles.
Main reason I see to stick to current standards is that the gains from sacrificing modularity for size simply aren't that great. With an IGP, ITX gets you pretty small, and with attention paid to cooling, pretty quiet as well.
Not just for size, for a better design in general (size, functionality, modifiable, upgradability).
IdiotInCharge
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Need to be able to rate this stuff in terms of TDP per dB or some such...
Yeah, problem is there isn't just a single thing that's important to everyone, so it's all compromises.
Laptops aren't a great example. But XBox Series X is a good example of superior packaging IMO. Air cooled with one large quiet Fan. Pretty much the ideal situation. It's what you can do when not weighed down with archaic standards.
Yeah, but it's not very upgradable.
But we don't live in a world where we are starting from scratch, making a completely new upgradable standard. We are unfortunately stuck with yesterdays standards.
So we get nice optimized one offs like Consoles, that hint at what you could do, or kludges on decades old design.
IdiotInCharge
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If you kept the TDP in check, you could easily do the same with desktop components. I don't see 'kludge' as really being applicable, since increases in size gain flexibility, while very little performance separates the smallest optimized vs. open designs.
Nobu
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There's also DTX and mDTX, if mITX is too small, but you don't want to go full ATX (or even uATX). Unfortunately there aren't a wide variety of boards which adopted the spec.
Show me a one fan desktop component system of comparable power using standard components. The average desktop with GPU likely averages 5 or more fans today.
IdiotInCharge
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Not sure I can do that; I can't imagine anyone really doing that on purpose.
What I imagine is a custom loop with a single 120mm rad, likely placed at the top with the components sandwiched below. Obviously a lower-power CPU and discrete GPU would need to be used, but the basic specs of a console should be pretty easy to emulate in such an environment and should stay pretty cool.
1337Goat
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The issue isn't so much that it can't be done. It's that motherboard manufacturers don't have the freedom to define their own sizes.
While stuck with motherboards that have RAM and PCIe slots in specific locations, in specific orientations, it just generally becomes difficult to do anything other than what is standard. Such is the nature of standards.
While stuck with motherboards that have RAM and PCIe slots in specific locations, in specific orientations, it just generally becomes difficult to do anything other than what is standard. Such is the nature of standards.
You just said "... you could easily do the same with desktop components..."
Nobu
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Could almost do it in a silverstone sg06 (or similar) with a nextgen apu, or a two fan nvidia card. If you removed the gpu fans and shroud, and used a tower cooler with no fans and a 120mm fan in the front of the case, it'd be effectively the same– maybe a bit smaller.
And I have built such a system, although it was back in bulldozer days, even squeezed an h80i in push-pull with a full-sized gpu.
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You forgot the PSU fan.
So just take fans out of everything and hope they don't fry. Safe bet that at the very least everything will throttle a lot, if not outright shutdown/fail.
Xbox SX is under 7 liters. SG06 is about 11 liters.
IdiotInCharge
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I don't imagine that it would be hard, except the part where you justify the cost of the exercise
Nobu
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Hdplex + distro board and 300-400w power brick and you don't have to worry about that. Though an apu system would only use about 150w max without an external gpu...
Oh, and that 5l difference is about 60mm in one dimension or 20mm in three. If a case were designed like the sg06 but with a plug-in psu instead of an sfx psu, it'd easily match that (and have room for clear airflow from front to back).
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If an APU was enough, you could just say NUC. But an APU is nowhere near the GPU power of XB SX. You need at least a 5700Xt.
I don't imagine that it would be hard, except the part where you justify the cost of the exercise
What's the cost, you are talking about standard desktop components. They are relatively cheap.
Nobu
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150+183w (worst case) = 333w. The psu that comes with the sg06 could almost handle that, the hdplex on it's own can handle 200w, and just need to add the pancake sized distro board for the extra umph for a gpu. They put out hardly any heat, and it'd easily be carried out the now very open case.
NUC=15-30W, so not really comparible to an APU...
It's not going to handle it with the PSU fan removed, but no worries because the CPU and GPU will overheat and shut down with their fans removed, so you can make a 11 liter brick...
Nobu
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So how is the XB sx going to do the same, using a similar amount of power, and a low speed fan? Limit it to 60fps and undervolt the cpu/gpu and it'll handle it just fine. We aren't talking about a 3950x here...
Nobu
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I don't think you understand just how open the sg06 is without an sfx psu, so I'll mock it up for you when I get home. It's about 60% open air, with a straight path from the front to the back. The only reason it has poor airflow is the constricted intake in the front and the psu in the back.
Edit: we're way off topic now, so I'll continue via PM if you don't mind, or we can open a thread and I'll copy the conversation up to this point.
Edit: we're way off topic now, so I'll continue via PM if you don't mind, or we can open a thread and I'll copy the conversation up to this point.
Because it's actually designed for it, as opposed to just removing fans from components designed to have them, sticking them in a box, and hoping that works (which it won't).
IdiotInCharge
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Not what would they cost, but the cost of actually doing it versus using that money elsewhere. I'm sure Linus Sebastian would be interested in doing it, but I'm not
.Not what would they cost, but the cost of actually doing it versus using that money elsewhere. I'm sure Linus Sebastian would be interested in doing it, but I'm not
Doing what? Is there something that prevents you from describing it? You know, you don't actually have to spend the money to list the parts and describe how they fit together.
Just like Nobu's "take the fans off everything and hope it still works" example.
IdiotInCharge
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Seeing as I have no intention of taking the exercise further, sorry.
I don't really find it that hard to imagine.
I remember deciding on a motherboard that I wanted a mATX, because it will still have 4 ram slots. After constant sifting thru looking for a high-end mATX x570 which doesn't exist, I just gave up on that idea.
I am still on the verge of deciding between
- an ATX which uses 4 slots for ram, 4x 16gb ram option with a lian li o11d case
- or do I go ITX with 2x 32gb ram sticks and wait for the o11d mini case.
I am still on the verge of deciding between
- an ATX which uses 4 slots for ram, 4x 16gb ram option with a lian li o11d case
- or do I go ITX with 2x 32gb ram sticks and wait for the o11d mini case.
You do know that x570 and 64G doesn’t play super nice. You have to run the ram at lower speeds most of the time
Actually I never knew that first time I heard this. Why is that?
First I have heard of this too, unless he's just saying that in general populating all 4 dimm slots makes it harder to get good memory overclocks?
Yep. Daisy chain instead of T-topology makes it really hard to get much performance out of it. Dan_D has a lot of experience in this, I seem to remember. Also, 32G sticks seem to have issues clocking, so even trying to do it with 2x32 is problematic. It's the one thing that has kept me from pulling the trigger - I'm back and forth on TR3 for this reason.
The buildzoid PCB breakdowns on a lot cover this too - and a bunch of threads here. Both quad-dimms and dual-32 are problematic, and I'm not aware of anyone who's tried 128 to see how it works except at stock speeds.