Apple Wants To Know How The FBI Will Hack Its Phone

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So, Apple fought tooth and nail against unlocking that damn iPhone and, for all intents and purposes, has won. Now all the sudden they want to know how the FBI is going to do it?

At approximately 2:30pm this afternoon, Apple was informed that the government wanted to vacate the hearing. The judge cancelled the event but also suspended the original motion for Apple to help the FBI get into San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook's iPhone. At this point, the company is no longer under any obligation to help the agency get into the phone.
 
Why wouldn't they? Possible weakness in their product, if not, then it would have to be a backdoor that already existed.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Why wouldn't they? Possible weakness in their product, if not, then it would have to be a backdoor that already existed.
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Exactly. Asking for details is a win-win for Apple. If there is a vulnerability, Apple wants to know about it so they can close it. And if there isn't, they're calling the FBI's bluff, making them look like idiots.
 
Parja said:
Exactly. Asking for details is a win-win for Apple. If there is a vulnerability, Apple wants to know about it so they can close it. And if there isn't, they're calling the FBI's bluff, making them look like idiots.
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Call their bluff? Really? You just typed that? *shakes head*

The FBI wouldn't call off a court hearing, given how long it takes to get those processes going, just to bluff.

I swear sometimes I think kids watch too many movies and think that's how things work in real life...
 
Since Apple refused to cooperate, I don't think they're obligated to tell them anything. Wouldn't be surprised if this "accidentally" fell into the hands of hackers and then Apple has to sweat for a few months trying to figure out where the weakness is. LOL.

Best situation would be for them to keep it secret, though. That way, Apple can't find out about it and patch it, and they won't have to be dealt with in the future. It would also prove Apple wrong about their inability to keep any sort of hack secret. "Oh, you think we can't keep a secret, huh? Good luck trying to figure out how we hacked your phone!"
 
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BlueFireIce said:
Why wouldn't they? Possible weakness in their product, if not, then it would have to be a backdoor that already existed.
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Yes this makes sense. But understand that they were strong-arming the FBI to begin with so why the hell would the FBI willingly give the information to Apple (assuming their claim is legit)?

If it is true that the FBI can unlock the phone, you can bet your ass they will try as hard as they might to keep it to themselves at least until the next version of iOS.
 
I'm curious if my method of cloning the device works... Loading the image file into a 1,000 VMs and writing a simple program to attempt 10 passcodes at a given range per VM.

My theory is, if the device boots to the OS, then it's susceptible to cloning, the boot up process to OS is unencrypted. Also, forensic companies do provide this service for cloning the device.
 
ROFL there is no way the FBI gives that info out. If they found a vulnerability or a third party sold the FBI a vulnerability, I am sure they are going to classify it to make sure no one spreads it out for as long as possible. This would actually be an interesting test case. Now that the government has a exploit they can use, how long will it take before it gets into the wild or someone else figures out how it is done? It would be a decent estimate of how long it would have taken for an actual apple built in backdoor for the government to spread once it was made if they had capitulated.
 
The FBI knew their case was completely unconstitutional and backed off before the Supreme Court set a precedent against them.

The FBI has been able to unlock the phone all along, they just wanted to see if they could push Apple into compliance.
 
Sonicks said:
Yes this makes sense. But understand that they were strong-arming the FBI to begin with so why the hell would the FBI willingly give the information to Apple (assuming their claim is legit)?

If it is true that the FBI can unlock the phone, you can bet your ass they will try as hard as they might to keep it to themselves at least until the next version of iOS.
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Strong arming the FBI? You mean the FBI trying to strong arm Apple into giving away access to encrypted devices?
 
Without going on my typical anti-Apple tirade, I have to say this is pretty funny to think that Apple has the brass balls to pull this and honestly think that the FBI will share any info after all this.
 
ir0nw0lf said:
Without going on my typical anti-Apple tirade, I have to say this is pretty funny to think that Apple has the brass balls to pull this and honestly think that the FBI will share any info after all this.
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Not really, at the time the case has not been vacated, Apple was not only wanting the information for the case (and if the case went on the FBI would probably actually have to tell them), but it would have also given Apple the means to win the case as the whole reason behind the FBI pushing Apple was their claim no one else could access the device except for Apple and wanted the courts to force them to comply, with the FBI seeking 3rd party help, it would demolish the case for the FBI without even getting into constitutional grounds. So Apple asking for the information is a no brainier, because no matter how the FBI responded it would be a win for them.
 
Everyone spouting my privacy is soo damn important is annoying. What do you have on your phone that is so damn important? Oh noes. That porn I made with my wifes best friend. Woe is me.

Yeah, I know. Morals is not cool in this day and age.
 
Apple says... No no that's not how your supposed to do it, you do it like... hey wait....
 
Parja said:
Well, the FBI did say it was a third party that found the way to circumvent it. That third party sharing that information with the FBI without Apple's permission is a DMCA violation. So...$0?



Would you allow the government to come into your house and have a look around whenever they felt like it?

This is all about legal precedent. Once you open that door, it's open forever. And once the first door is open, it makes other doors much easier to open.
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I don't have anything to hide. How about you?
 
Sonicks said:
Same difference. It's been back and forth and now the shoe is on the other foot.
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Same difference?

Gov wants the ability to access any Apple phone any time it wants, Apple fighting to keep it's devices secure....Yep, exactly the same thing.
 
Brokennails said:
Everyone spouting my privacy is soo damn important is annoying. What do you have on your phone that is so damn important? Oh noes. That porn I made with my wifes best friend. Woe is me.

Yeah, I know. Morals is not cool in this day and age.
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You're so far off the mark here you're missing the point....

It's a basic right to privacy. Imagine you did questionable things as a youngster...I don't know...maybe you killed a cat and thought it was funny then immediately regretted it. You wouldn't want to disclose that to everyone with a sign over your head would you? That's an extreme example but to say that 'you have nothing to hide' is beyond ridiculous because you know there are things you've done that you wouldn't share to anyone. Same thing goes for you liking kinky things in the sack or having questionable masturbation methods....some shit should be kept secret unless you want to disclose it.

Saying you have no privacy, or even worse, no right to privacy, in the digital age is likewise a stupid statement. No matter what it is, you should have a right to privacy.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Call their bluff? Really? You just typed that? *shakes head*

The FBI wouldn't call off a court hearing, given how long it takes to get those processes going, just to bluff.

I swear sometimes I think kids watch too many movies and think that's how things work in real life...
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I have to say I agree.

I think this is one thing and one thing only. The FBI has found a way into the phone or a way to extract the data in unencrypted format, or a way to extract the encryption keys so they can decrypt the data. Otherwise they would have been having that hearing today and that would be the news of the day instead.

If you continue along this line of thought I don't think the FBI is going to care much about helping Apple with the security of their product given all the help Apple has offered to date.

I told people that if Apple continued along this path they might not like what happened. How much better would Apple be sitting right now if they had agreed to cooperate without making a big deal of it and simply said: "A government owned phone that was issued to a dead guy, who killed a bunch of people? no problem, we can help"


Story isn't done yet though, more will come out of it, it might get better still.
 
Again, why would this be on a phone? Do you feel that safe having private info like that on a device connected to the Internet lol.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Same difference?

Gov wants the ability to access any Apple phone any time it wants, Apple fighting to keep it's devices secure....Yep, exactly the same thing.
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Dude, I get it. I'm with you. You're just trying to argue semantics now. We all now the story and where it is now. I simply stated that Apple shouldn't be asking the FBI for anything after all that's happened thus far. They are not in a position to do so.
 
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Brokennails said:
Again, why would this be on a phone? Do you feel that safe having private info like that on a device connected to the Internet lol.
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For Christ's sake....its not about whats ON THE GOD DAMN PHONE. It's about the ability for you to pick and choose what YOU want to disclose to someone. Does no one know what privacy actually means? I mean...seriously. Take it out of the internet/digital context. It doesn't seem like you get it in the slightest.
 
I'm for privacy as much as the next guy but there should be exceptions to the rule, especially involving terrorism. I wonder if that cell phone contained information to attack your house and behead your children, if the privacy advocates would be so quick to side with Apple on this. I'm pretty sick with Apple playing this privacy precedent deal on this. I don't feel Apple helping give access to terrorist activities in any way affects my personal privacy.
 
Sonicks said:
You're so far off the mark here you're missing the point....

It's a basic right to privacy. Imagine you did questionable things as a youngster...I don't know...maybe you killed a cat and thought it was funny then immediately regretted it. You wouldn't want to disclose that to everyone with a sign over your head would you? That's an extreme example but to say that 'you have nothing to hide' is beyond ridiculous because you know there are things you've done that you wouldn't share to anyone. Same thing goes for you liking kinky things in the sack or having questionable masturbation methods....some shit should be kept secret unless you want to disclose it.

Saying you have no privacy, or even worse, no right to privacy, in the digital age is likewise a stupid statement. No matter what it is, you should have a right to privacy.
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I agree.

Some don't believe it, but I do agree. But I also believe that the government needs the authority under a warrant to demand information for criminal and civil court action. Without it there is no way for law to work.
 
Mike89 said:
I'm for privacy as much as the next guy but there should be exceptions to the rule, especially involving terrorism. I wonder if that cell phone contained information to attack your house and behead your children, if the privacy advocates would be so quick to side with Apple on this. I'm pretty sick with Apple playing this privacy precedent deal on this.
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Again, you're off the mark here. So people have an avenue with iPhones to communicate privately. Big deal. You can just as easily buy a burner, meet a guy in a cave, and talk about the same shit there.

What you're saying, the exception....would be to bug every cave/dark alley in my scenario. If the government starts applying that logic to everything then you're suddenly right on track to an 1984 situation because you want exceptions to the rule.

If people want to do bad horrible things in secret, they will always find a way. The only ones paying for it are the law abiding people.
 
I do get it. I just don't view a little divice in my pocket I carry around private. There are always people looking over your shoulder or listening to a conversation you are having in public places fr me to ever consider it anything other than. Then again I come from a time before cell phones. My perception is very different than newer gen.
 
It is "Homeland Security" that sends out spam emails about how corporations could have security holes in their networks. About how they need to protect themselves and new vulnerabilities. Why would the FBI hold back this information? I thought the government was looking for the country's best interest and security?

What happens when a security hole is found for a Microsoft operating system? Are there lawsuits for who found out the bug/exploit? Are they forced to provide the information? If so, I can see the FBI being forced to tell Apple how it was exploited.
 
Also. I snicker at all these people omg the guberment is spying on me. They have this complex with 300,000,000 people each looking at a monitor for each person.... Lol
 
Brokennails said:
Also. I snicker at all these people omg the guberment is spying on me. They have this complex with 300,000,000 people each looking at a monitor for each person.... Lol
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Of course no one is ever monitoring you every second of the day.

The only example I can think of here is the few time's I've worked at the help desk for restaurant holding company. We had the ability to log into any store's computers we wanted at any time we wanted without being detected by the end user. I would at times hop in and out of random computers when researching certain issues and catch things I shouldn't have seen. Then suddenly some days pass and that store I logged into randomly calls and now suddenly I'm associating the talking manager with the questionable web content she was viewing. All the while they are completely unaware.

So no....nobody is ever singling you out and monitoring you 24/7 but giving anyone the choice to observe you at any time is unethical.

And let me tell you....with an ability like this, curiosity can easily get away with you. Imagine that there was a team of people that could do this to it's country's people. Nobody, not one person, not an entity, should be able to pry into anyone's private life like that. Not at will.
 
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John Hopkins University? Didn't they say they found a hole in Apples encryption?
 
Sonicks said:
Dude, I get it. I'm with you. You're just trying to argue semantics now. We all now the story and where it is now. I simply stated that Apple shouldn't be asking the FBI for anything after all that's happened thus far. They are not in a position to do so.
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Actually they were, that's is the whole point of asking, this was before the FBI wanted to drop everything (and they probably would have been forced to show how its possible), as it was a win win card for Apple. If Apple can show the FBI is using a 3rd party to access the phone it proves the FBI statements that it could not be done without Apple to be false, which was the FBI's stance on getting the court to force them to do it. Once that happened the FBI's case would be dead in the water. But the FBI wanted to drop everything before that, because they probably saw they were going to lose and didn't want to set precedent for future cases and didn't want to reveal how they are doing it or any backdoor they already sneaked in.
 
lcpiper said:
I told people that if Apple continued along this path they might not like what happened. How much better would Apple be sitting right now if they had agreed to cooperate without making a big deal of it and simply said: "A government owned phone that was issued to a dead guy, who killed a bunch of people? no problem, we can help"
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This.

Apple could have owned this process, keeping the process secure and only unlocking a device with a court order.

Instead they huffed and puffed and some hacker blew a hole in their security :D

Apple should try and get a court order demanding the FBI provide this information, and the FBI should just classify the information and thumb their nose at Apple.
 
nutzo said:
This.

Apple could have owned this process, keeping the process secure and only unlocking a device with a court order.

Instead they huffed and puffed and some hacker blew a hole in their security :D

Apple should try and get a court order demanding the FBI provide this information, and the FBI should just classify the information and thumb their nose at Apple.
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You have not been following the case have you?

The FBI wanted Apple to write a work around for them that they would KEEP, allowing them access to any Apple phone they so wished.
 
nutzo said:
This.

Apple could have owned this process, keeping the process secure and only unlocking a device with a court order.

Instead they huffed and puffed and some hacker blew a hole in their security :D

Apple should try and get a court order demanding the FBI provide this information, and the FBI should just classify the information and thumb their nose at Apple.
Click to expand...

The FBI has almost certainly been able to get the data off this one phone the whole time. What they want is a way to do so more efficiently, so they can do so en masse. They want EASY access. This whole case was manufactured to min-max the public perception, create precedent, and open up a back door to lower the bar for law enforcement to do this in the future. I'm not sure I've ever seen so much nonsense in such a short thread. People are letting their anti-Apple bias creep into their common sense.

Law enforcement wants companies like Apple to build vulnerabilities into their systems. But i'll be ok b/c only the good guys will use them.

If this were going to be successful, the government would be using provisions of CALEA to gain access. Since the toys they want would require CALEA to be amended (very unlikely), they had to go the All Writs Act, this was doomed from the start. If the government had their way, we wouldn't be able to encrypt our phones, our hard drives, or anything else.
 
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Sonicks said:
Again, you're off the mark here. So people have an avenue with iPhones to communicate privately. Big deal. You can just as easily buy a burner, meet a guy in a cave, and talk about the same shit there.

What you're saying, the exception....would be to bug every cave/dark alley in my scenario. If the government starts applying that logic to everything then you're suddenly right on track to an 1984 situation because you want exceptions to the rule.

If people want to do bad horrible things in secret, they will always find a way. The only ones paying for it are the law abiding people.
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Yea? Who?

Name the Law Abiding citizen of the USA who has suffered some damage from violations of their privacy because data was taken from their phone under a legal court ordered warrant?
 
lcpiper said:
Yea? Who?

Name the Law Abiding citizen of the USA who has suffered some damage from violations of their privacy because data was taken from their phone under a legal court ordered warrant?
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Maybe your little head can wrap your mind around it put another way:

Imagine you, and a select few others, had the ONLY x-ray goggles known to man. Now also imagine these same goggles could hear anything you wanted and also sniff out any information you wanted from anybody you happen to look at.

You would no doubt be curious enough to look through to your neighbors house....maybe you'll follow that one guy that rubbed you the wrong way in the bank teller line and you eavesdrop on them.....the list goes on man. What I mean by the law abiding citizen gets the shaft is just that. We're out in the open and with our privacy removed we're just another person in the house that you can peer through.

A terrorist, or any criminal for that matter, would be less susceptible to this because they are already trying to be secretive to begin with. They know they are doing bad dealings. They have that guilty conscience. Does that mean we all, as normal citizens, need to adopt a much more secretive way of life and live like them? No. We should be able to live as we live without any one person, or entity, given the choice to know whatever they want about you.

Clearly, since the bigger picture here is a philosophical/ethical argument, you're not going to get it if you need concrete 'evidence' about 'damages suffered' and whatever the hell else you need to attach to this to get yourself to understand.

Snowden outed the NSA and their 'meta data' sniffing program. You think that stopped? I doubt it. Given the keys to one of the most popular smart phones out there it just increases their net of visibility into the lives of ordinary people.
 
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