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I think it is more based on the APUs being a touch bandwidth starved and later APUs will have stronger iGPUs therefore increasing the issue. HBM would alleviate that issue in gaming mostly and prob hinder other operations, but doesn't stop the hope and dreams.
Well, that's the thing - How much more do you want to pay for your APU?
AMD already charges a $50 premium for getting the same processor spec with a GPU included. You can be sure they'll charge you even more for additional HBM memory on-interposer.
Would you pay $175 for a powerful APU, when you could get a more capable discrete card for $100, and slap it on that GPU-less model?
I was speaking more for Small form factor like laptops and such. but still you can even consider consoles as great need of such.
I was speaking more for Small form factor like laptops and such. but still you can even consider consoles as great need of such.
Game consoles are a viable option, however
I don't understand why everyone sees a slower and wider memory like HBM and suddenly thinks it should be included in everything.
It's not magical. It's not lower latency than existing DDR3/DDR4, so it won't benefit your average user.
Every time someone beings this up, I just point to Intel's Crystalwell: it's an improvement for some workloads, but not all. Furthermore, Intel charges at least a $40 premium for that single 128MB memory chip, and most people (those not using the integrated graphics) would find it difficult to see $40 worth of value in that eDRAM chip.
I don't understand why everyone sees a slower and wider memory like HBM and suddenly thinks it should be included in everything.
By the time Zen comes out we might already see HBM2. Zen won't have HBM and DirectX12 will run "better" with AMD piledriver cpu anyway. The difference is that IPC is no longer benefiting from the crippled way things were working in DX11 (1 core could only talk to the gpu).
For gaming on Mantle/DX12/Vulkan Zen will have little impact.
A single HBM1 stack at 500Mhz/1Ghz has a bandwidth of 128GB/sec, and most likely uses a lot less power than a DDR3/DDR4 interface that provides the same bandwidth.
For DDR4 systems to generate that much bandwidth, you need a quad-channel (256 bit) interface running at a 4GHz data rate. That's not even taking trace lengths and routing into consideration.
The misconception that DX12 will magically make Piledriver competitive is silly. The most powerful FX series chips still lose out in multhreaded CPU benchmarks to the i7 2600K, a 4-year old processor. Direct X 12 will make games less reliant on processor performance, yes, but it's not a magic bullet that will make up for Piledriver's poor integer performance and utterly atrocious floating-point performance.
But we don't need the bandwidth we already have on the average gaming desktop. That's why I made the distinction of "slow and wide" when describing HBM - it's the exact opposite of DDR3/DDR4 memory, and thus not an improvement for GENERAL DESKTOP SYSTEM MEMORY in any way, shape or form.
See here where dual-channel only adds "up to" 5% performance on a Core i5 for non-workstation tasks. For the majority it's under 3%:
http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/1349-ram-how-dual-channel-works-vs-single-channel/Page-3
When you're doing things with more random load patterns (games, web browsing, file compression), memory SPEED matters a whole lot more than the WIDTH.
And while HBM may benefit certain workloads, you're not going to see it replacing standard DDR3/4 in any mainstream systems anytime soon. It's more expensive than DDR4, and also a whole lot less flexible (one capacity per system design, and lower memory chip density). IT would be a major undertaking to integrate it into a memory space without slowing down operations that depend on fast random access.
i dont see hbm being used to replace system ram. it would be used as gpu ram. in that usage it would really make an apu shine. who is saying it would be used to replace system ram?
Well, if it's dedicated ram it won't be a very cheap apu, now will it?
The whole intent of "cost savings" with the APU is to make use of the bandwidth you already have. Anything more puts extra cost on a price sensitive device
You dreamers don't seem to understand: there's no such thing as a free lunch. Adding 8 to 16 memory chips still costs money even on interposer. Adding more GPU units to an APU cost money. Who is going to buy this $300 APU that can't be moved to another system, and uses way more power t than any OEM would dream of fitting into a SFF pc?
Actually I could see it replacing shared ram the system ram being super fast might not show that much benefit but dropping ddr3/4 from the system and one of the taller pieces on the motherboard goes away if hbm can be good enough for the full system with hsa blending gpu and system tasks in memory a budget system board could be reduced in complexity to just the various io controllers and power regulators. I am thinking for super small system like all in one or smart tv or nuc or those wall wart sized pc.
Imagine a pc the size of a deck of cards able to play crisis 3 on high detail with 60+FPS that is where I think hbm can take us.
I was thinking of embedded type systems like the intel nuc or the ps4/x bone or low-mid end laptops no ram slots at all just the soldered in apu with hbm the only things left configurable would be hdd or odd and wireless adaptors but even those could be soldered to the board directly.
And what do you mean uses so much power zen is going to be on 14nm and the power is just going to be sipped...
also hypothetically the apu is 300 retail but only 150 bulk oem. The thing I envision with this is a capable disposeable computer when it gets obsolete or breaks nothing there to repair or replace except the unit as a whole.
That is for laptops but what about all in one and set top boxes those could be run at 35-65wYou have big dreams my friend, but we're nowhere near solving the power issue
See the post I shared above comparing the performance of 15w HD 6000 (orange) versus 28w HD 6100 (red orange):
The only difference between the two Intel chips is the amount of power allotted, but you can see how power-limited we are right now on 14nm Broadwell. That's failing to run the game smoothly at 1280x720, so you know we're hitting the power wall at 15 watts. All the chips approaching 30fps on that graph use at least 65w, making them unattainable for laptops.
So while HBM will undoubtedly be a part of PCs once we drop below 10w, we're nowhere near that yet. At this point the extra cost and small power consumption improvement can't be justified due to extra cost (along with the small performance hit most applications would take).
AMD is not going to find nirvana or anything. They will be just as power-limited as Intel is at 14nm and 15 watts, even with Zen.
I too used to dream big, but then I learned too much about silicon physics. It sucks
That is for laptops but what about all in one and set top boxes those could be run at 35-65w