Rewards system for FAH donors

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PookTwo

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Before reading this forum please know that i am NOT advocating you to switch FAH teams. The organization I work for is trying to bring more user adoption to FAH. What I am proposing allows you to stay on your current team. Please read this whole post before making a judgement. Also this is an updated OP since the original posting so the first responses may not make sense to the new OP.

So how can we as a folding community bring more adoption to FAH?

Let's first compare the difference between a profitable organization and a non profit:

Nonprofits: Not for profit companies do a good job of providing services to the community. Funding and volunteering is done mostly by those who have an active interest in the organizations mission. FAH for example is attractive to those in the medical community (since the project helps in fighting diseases) and techies (since computers are involved in the creation of the medical research). Outside of these two kinds of individuals, adoption is limited.

For Profits: For profit businesses do a good job of getting particular services to the masses. Even though contributing resources and time to nonprofits make us all feel great, all of us still have to eat. Therefor a majority of our time and resources are spent working and supporting for profit businesses so the world economy can continue to go round and round. This is a very realistic reality that no one can argue - if you can't make money doing something, it will not expand as fast as there is no motive for personal gain and not as much growth for business operations.

But what happens when the two are combined?

Lets take a look at the only grid computing projects faster than FAH, and thats Bitcoin and Cryptocurrencies. So why do people mine bitcoins?

Unlike other distributed computing platforms, since bitcoin is money it is actually profitable to contribute to unlike networks like BOINC and FAH. The more miners there are the less each one makes, so the price has grown with the mining power. Miners are awarded newly minted BTCs every 10 minutes for their contributions to the security and transaction verification of the network. This is done on a schedule and eventually there will be no more bitcoin created once 21 million are generated by miners. In 2009 a bitcoin was less than a penny, today it trades at almost $300

Bitcoin was originally created just by using you computer to mine, but in March 2013 venture capitalists saw an opportunity to create more mining efficient equipment since the popularity has grown exponentially and there was profit incentives for the VC’s to create these specialized mining devices. Now anyone with $5 can purchase a miner that uses virtually no energy (USB device) that mines BTC faster than a R9 290X.

BTC is done in Hashes and FAH is done in FLOPS. There is no direct translation from one to another, but a common consensus is 1 hash equals 12,700 FLOPS when comparing the 2 side by side. The FAH grid computing network has nearly 50 PetaFLOPS and is known as the world's most powerful computing network outside of the Bitcoin mining network. At the time before ASICs and FPGAs started hitting the market in December 2012, the Hash rate of the BTC network was at 26 TeraHASH’s in mostly GPU and CPU power. Based on a rough comparison 12.7 PetaFLOP = 1 TeraHASH the potential computational power that could be added to FAH is:

26 TeraHASH 12.7 PetaFLOPS = 330 PetaFLOPS.

Imagine if that power was harnessed for molecular protein folding. Most of this power was redirected to altcoin mining after the SHA ASICs came out, since there was no profit motive for folding.

If there is a profit motive to folding, Venture capitalists could see this as an opportunity to invest in the creation of economic sized Anton Supercomputer, which is an ASIC molecular protein simulating machine that can fold more efficiently than standard computing hardware. This very thing happened to Bitcoin mining when it became exponentially profitable: venture capitalists invested in the creation of ASIC miners to compute SHA256 at a more efficient rate than standard computing hardware. Currently the Bitcoin network is roughly 4.5 million PetaFLOPS, almost 100,000 times more powerful than FAH.

We propose introducing Crypto into FAH

FoldingCoin Inc. (built on Counterparty) created an asset with a “Proof of Fold” concept to verify contributed computational power. Participants contribute their cycles to medical research on the Folding@home platform instead of a “Proof of Work” or “Proof of Stake” algorithm on a traditional Altcoin blockchain, and are compensated with crypto currencies.

Since Counterparty assets share the Bitcoin blockchain, this allows the legacy mining equipment from Altcoin mining to be redirected towards medical research, since the Bitcoin miners are already covering the security and hashing rate of the Bitcoin blockchain.

FoldingCoin has the ability to incorporate multiple coins into the open sourced distribution calculator based on individual missions of the respective coin. With more tokens being added to the FoldingCoin Inc. distribution family, more adaption is gained for Folding@home, FLDC, Counterparty, and the respective token, all at the same time. Tokens added in this way will be advertised as a collaboration effort on FoldingCoin Inc.’s part, but will still be developed and run separately from FoldingCoin Inc. Currently 6 different cryptocurrencies can be earned via FoldingCoin.

Once a day, FoldingCoin Inc.’s snapshot code downloads the FAH daily user summary text file and searches line by line to find those folders who have set up their folding software according to the FoldingCoin Inc. instructions:

- Setup a Counterwallet

- Setup FAH (if you already are running FAH, simply set your donor name according to instructions on Step 6)

Even if you do not want the crypto currency, by participating in this project, you will help bring more adoption to FAH from Miners and the general public. When FLDC becomes gains more liquidity in the crypto markets, more participants will join in. And if you do not want the TOKENS on our platform, simply set your donor BTC address to

username_ALL_1BYZjVL5QzD44xhepnvX3D1e2QCDCpP3cV

and the funds will go directly to supporting the FoldingCoin Inc project. Please consider participating in this program to help increase the FAH network to astronomical speeds. The following list will explain what purpose each TOKEN on our platform provides:

FLDC - This token is distributed daily. We are building an eBay style Marketplace that will allow anyone to buy and sell items with Counterparty Tokens. FLDC will be exclusively used for transaction fees

TOPFOLDER - This token is distributed once per month. You can exchange this token currently for 1 week of advertising on our website. In the future, we will expand the uses for this token.

BITCRYSTALS - This token is distributed once per month. You use this token to buy packs of cards for the upcoming game “Spells of Genesis”.

FDCARD - This token is distributed once per month. This is an exclusive card achieved only via folding for the game “Spells of Genesis”.

SCOTCOIN - This token is distributed once per month. This token is trying to become the crypto currency of Scotland.

OCTO - This token is distributed once per month. This token is building applications for online fantasy sports. Octoparty is new, so currently no uses.

POWC - This token is distributed weekly. This token is trying to become the crypto currency of comic books. Currently being developed so currently no uses.

If anyone has questions or wants more information, please use one of the following sources. You may also post here and I will return with an answer. Thanks and I hope to see you participate!

email: [email protected]

White Paper: Found Here

Website: http://foldingcoin.net

Forum: Bitcointalk
 
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Would it be attractive enough to change your username in order to receive FLDC?
I can only speak for me here, but I would not change my username for this or any other reason.

If keeping the usernames is more important, what is the safest way we could verify users
The username/team combination is unique. If you have some sort of database tying that to a cryptocoin address, that would work. Keep in mind that you don't need a passkey to fold, which is another good reason not to use it.

I'll try to keep up with this if you get something workable figured out. I don't fold much these days, but I do still have a couple of machines going.
 
There's another option, CureCoin, which has been out and running for 6 months. It's reached the #5 overall team spot already, and is the 2nd highest daily producer (though lately it looks nearly tied there).

It's not really geared towards existing folders, however, as it requires you to change your team. That's not very palatable to most folders at this point. Similar to FoldingCoin, the main aim is to onboard the huge amounts of cards currently mining CryptoCurrencies to do research instead.

CureCoin, on the other hand, has bigger aims well beyond FAH. It intends to bring onboard a variety of similar distributed computing projects through a much more robust version 2, in development now.

Like I said, people aren't usually looking to change teams any more than they are looking to change names; perhaps as we near v2.0 of CureCoin it can be opened up to members of other teams.
 
musky said:
Would it be attractive enough to change your username in order to receive FLDC?
I can only speak for me here, but I would not change my username for this or any other reason.

If keeping the usernames is more important, what is the safest way we could verify users
The username/team combination is unique. If you have some sort of database tying that to a cryptocoin address, that would work. Keep in mind that you don't need a passkey to fold, which is another good reason not to use it.

I'll try to keep up with this if you get something workable figured out. I don't fold much these days, but I do still have a couple of machines going.
Click to expand...

Well with a passkey, your PPD changes drastically. Without one, my rigs only did about half of the PPDs then with a passkey. And since we are paying out according to your PPD, they are important to receiving FLDC, but you dont technically need one.

As for verifying a user without gaining access to the passkey, the only thing we have thought of that would work would to be something we call "proof of idle" and how that works would be as follows:

  • User emails us telling their donor name and providing a FLDC address
  • User tells us a 12-24 hour time period in which they shut off their operation
  • We check to confirm that they are not producing points within the time frame they gave us
  • This proves that they are who they say they are

This however is not bullet proof. It would work for folks that have big operations probably over 300 PPD, but for people that only produce a WU ever couple days, this is not the ideal method as there are many hours in which they are not producing points.

Having the passkey or a FLDC address in the name is the only way we could 100% verify a folder. I will talk to my team about the passkey idea again, but like stated before:

In order to keep consistent with the crypto worlds ideology we would need to post this information for all to see. If we do not, accusations of cheating have the potential to surface.
 
And see... this is where BOINC would have been the better choice. As one could offer up their weak account key and nobody would be able to access their account with it. Only add additional rigs to improve their standing.
 
CrabappleNighttime said:
There's another option, CureCoin, which has been out and running for 6 months. It's reached the #5 overall team spot already, and is the 2nd highest daily producer (though lately it looks nearly tied there).

It's not really geared towards existing folders, however, as it requires you to change your team. That's not very palatable to most folders at this point. Similar to FoldingCoin, the main aim is to onboard the huge amounts of cards currently mining CryptoCurrencies to do research instead.

CureCoin, on the other hand, has bigger aims well beyond FAH. It intends to bring onboard a variety of similar distributed computing projects through a much more robust version 2, in development now.

Like I said, people aren't usually looking to change teams any more than they are looking to change names; perhaps as we near v2.0 of CureCoin it can be opened up to members of other teams.
Click to expand...

We started with the similar idea of getting miners to do something else with their GPUs while still getting crypto. We expanded to a different thought process though. Millions of dollars had been spent on GPUs and CPUs for BTC originally when it was developed because there was a monetary motive behind doing so. Just look at this old miner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt8Se3vVNg Now it is great that people have been folding for free for over a decade, but the average person (or someone who doesnt make enough money to cover electricity) is not going to have an interest in doing that. I would say a vast amount of Folders are computer nerds (like myself) that enjoy playing with different projects on the web. But when BTC started gaining value, it went from an underground group of enthusiasts to capitalists who saw potential in making money. According to my calculations, I believe that with monetary incentives, BTC reached a whopping 600 petaflops in GPU speed. Here is how I have come to those calculations:

  • The BTC network is measured in Hashes while the FAH network is measured in FLOPS. There is no direct translation between a FLOP and a HASH, but assuming at the end of March 2013 (before any ASICs hit the BTC network) was still almost 100 percent GPUs it is easy to guess what GPU FLOP power there was. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50720.0 (I have more sources if anyone is interested but this conversation was the best)
  • Then take the power of the BTC network before ASICs: 52.2 T/hash * 12.7 PetaFlops = 662.94 potential PetaFlops could be added to the FAH network from old GPU rigs and Altcoin rigs

This was due to the fact that people had been creating an economy around the coin. FAH could reach that potential much quicker I believe because Miners need an incentive for their operations. With the FAH network already having 200k computers attached to it, if every FAH folder started accepting a common coin, the miners will come. Then everyone (especially Stanford) would win.

Starting Jan 5th, I will be going full time FLDC and will be able to look into things like adding additional grid computing projects to be able to earn FLDC. This is a great idea and our team has already had discussions with different organizations about this. The advantage that we have over Curecoin is we do not have to worry about rewriting our code as we are built inside of the Bitcoin blockchain. As the Bitcoin core and Counterparty protocol receive updates, they are automatically applied to our coin. Bitcoin and Counterparty have much more funding then either FLDC or CURE, Overstock.com just gave the developers of CP a blank check to create an alternative to Wall street http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-153-medici-and-the-pretense-of-law and Bitcoin is the most funded crypto out there and has thousands of people developing code and apps for it.

CURE requires a lot of development work in the actual client, FLDC has already been fully created. Here is a list of the pros to using a "token" (like FLDC) rather than an "Alt" (like CURE):
  • BTC miners approve the transactions
  • When you send FLDC to another wallet you are also sending a small amount of BTC in addition to FLDC
  • Distribution has been locked by the Counterparty protocol ensuring that even the developers of the coin can’t introduce more FLDC into the market.
  • As Bitcoin and Counterparty developers innovate, we evolve with them. We share a wallet and blockchain. With FLDC you do not have to wait on our dev team to develop new apps like mobile wallets. When Counterparty creates them, FLDC is compatible automatically. Most AltCoins have to develop their own apps since they have a separate blockchain.
  • Since FLDC shares the Bitcoin blockchain, we automatically get security and GUI updates as the Bitcoin and Counterparty developers release them.
  • No mining is required by FLDC. All tokens have already been created and are held in a distribution wallet. The advantages of not requiring mining are as follows:
  • This allows our team to focus on the adoption, distribution, and economy of the coin, and not software development of the coin itself.
  • No energy is wasted securing a blockchain, all resources are strictly for Folding@home work units.
  • There is no exposure to a 51% attack unless it happens to the Bitcoin network itself.
  • CGminer and other mining applications are very confusing and require a lot of patience and research for the first time miner. The FAH program and FLDC has made it incredibly easy for anyone to start right away.
  • 100% of the 500,000 FLDC distributed everyday is divided amongst all folders combined daily credits. No percentage goes towards SHA 256 miners, donations to the project, or development funds.
 
Gilthanis said:
And see... this is where BOINC would have been the better choice. As one could offer up their weak account key and nobody would be able to access their account with it. Only add additional rigs to improve their standing.
Click to expand...

We actually loked at BOINC first but the reasons we decided against BOINC are as follows:
  • Due to the nature of the BTC code, it was far superior to use ATI cards for mining than it was to use NVIDIA cards. Most all projects on the BOINC network are compatible with NVIDIA but only a select few are able to use ATI. The ones able to use ATI are also not as beneficial to humanity as FAH is : @Seti, finding prime numbers, ext. We needed something that would be attractive to the ALT miners who have ATI cards
  • We wanted something that would be user friendly. Now for everyone on this forum, setting up BOINC is a breeze, however, looking in the eyes of someone not tech savvy, BOINC can be intimidating. We wanted something that could be plug and play like FAH (another reason why CP is good for a coin, no clients or blockchains need to be installed by a general PC user, FLDC can be purely web wallet for the general user, much easier than a traditional QT wallet)
  • A lot of projects on BOINC are great and we would love to incorporate select projects one day to be able to receive FLDC (this would be up to the community of FLDC holders though) but none seem as goal oriented as the FAH program and developers. Just looking at many BOINC projects against the FAH project, you can tell that FAH is developed at a superior level than many other grid projects. That is not to take away from the BOINC projects, but to point out that if we are going to make a currency work, it needs to start with the most respected and fastest grid computing project out there
 
The problem with that line of thinking is echoed by the problems you have mentioned prior.

1. people aren't real interested in abandoning their hard earned work and certainly don't trust giving out their account keys.
2. If you are setting up for one project, BOINC is rather easy to set up. The ones who want to maximize it will seek that out elsewhere. And they will if money is based on points.
3. Teams matter to a good number of people. Again, giving out keys to fix that issue won't go very far.
4. Value of the project most certainly is important. I do agree that AMD lacks in the DC arena when it comes to many projects because quite frankly most of the scientific world favors CUDA. I will also mention you clearly don't know a lot about the BOINC projects if you think most of them support CUDA. Of the approximately 70 active projects I can think of, only about 10 have CUDA apps (I excluded the BETA or Alpha projects that have a main server that is separate like Einstein and Albert are really the same project). There are approximately 8 that are AMD capable. One of those is BitcoinUtopia which mines crypto currencies and support both as well as ASICs. Then you have at least 3 projects that can run on Intel GPU (and yes those 3 projects also have both CUDA and AMD alternatives). I also excluded DistrRTgen since it hasn't been active for over half a year now. From there you really must clarify what you are deeming beneficial to humanity. You can quote papers all you want, but it is the work that makes it to the real world that matters. There isn't a lot of that out there. WCG pulled it off, but they no longer have GPU sub projects available. They may in the future. Prime numbers are used pretty much everywhere in society. But nobody wants to champion stronger encryption. Cancer on the other hand gains respect. Even if there is never a real world use from the research we do. But I get the sales pitch you are trying to do. It works for the gullible and the ignorant.
And that isn't meant to be insulting but by definition.
 
Gilthanis said:
The problem with that line of thinking is echoed by the problems you have mentioned prior.

1. people aren't real interested in abandoning their hard earned work and certainly don't trust giving out their account keys.
2. If you are setting up for one project, BOINC is rather easy to set up. The ones who want to maximize it will seek that out elsewhere. And they will if money is based on points.
3. Teams matter to a good number of people. Again, giving out keys to fix that issue won't go very far.
4. Value of the project most certainly is important. I do agree that AMD lacks in the DC arena when it comes to many projects because quite frankly most of the scientific world favors CUDA. I will also mention you clearly don't know a lot about the BOINC projects if you think most of them support CUDA. Of the approximately 70 active projects I can think of, only about 10 have CUDA apps (I excluded the BETA or Alpha projects that have a main server that is separate like Einstein and Albert are really the same project). There are approximately 8 that are AMD capable. One of those is BitcoinUtopia which mines crypto currencies and support both as well as ASICs. Then you have at least 3 projects that can run on Intel GPU (and yes those 3 projects also have both CUDA and AMD alternatives). I also excluded DistrRTgen since it hasn't been active for over half a year now. From there you really must clarify what you are deeming beneficial to humanity. You can quote papers all you want, but it is the work that makes it to the real world that matters. There isn't a lot of that out there. WCG pulled it off, but they no longer have GPU sub projects available. They may in the future. Prime numbers are used pretty much everywhere in society. But nobody wants to champion stronger encryption. Cancer on the other hand gains respect. Even if there is never a real world use from the research we do. But I get the sales pitch you are trying to do. It works for the gullible and the ignorant.
And that isn't meant to be insulting but by definition.
Click to expand...

1. I know :( this has been the thing we have thought about the most. We understand the strong communities that have been built in the FAH world. We also understand that most of you are probably not interested in gaining an altcoin. But the main reason for advocating anyone to accept the coin is to help gain in the adoption of the coin to give an incentive to miners to join something more productive than dying blockchains (because ultimately in my opinion BTC will be the only real value coin that will continue to be mined. The concept of "smart contracts" and "user created assets" are gaining more popularity over a traditional alt, so I feel that is the future of crypto). We also dont want to gain passkeys from people, this is not something we want to be responsible for. I am simply pointing out a way that we could verify, but we dont want to do that. Maybe bringing that idea out could help spark an idea from someone on this forum for a better solution.

Many of us from FLDC and CURE are coming from the mining world and are still getting settled into the FAH world. We are trying to find out how to integrate the 2 in the best possible manner.

2. I am more so talking about people who do not have any interest in the computer world. I know my friend asked me the other day how to add an attachment in an email :D Someone like that would not want to even see BOINC. Even if they only wanted to setup 1 project, the look alone is way more intimidating than FAH. I have already had to walk many of my non tech friends how to set FAH up on their home computers and thats simply download and go.

3. refer to 1

4. My apologies, I worded that wrong, I meant for projects allowing GPUs in general but you are correct, I do not know a whole lot about BOINC. I used it for 1 day before switching my focus to FAH fully.

I do remember BitcoinUtopia though and that is the kind of project I wish to avoid. Please correct me if I am wrong about what they do, but it seems like they are basically getting people to mine cryptos for them, then they sell them for BTC, then they give the BTC to research companies. I find this as a waste of energy for GPUs because the Scrypt ASICs have come out this year. In Feb this year, my operation was still making me 5 BTC a month in cryptos. Then the Scrypt ASICs came out and in March I did 0.6 BTC in cryptos. Thats when i switched to FAH. So I think BTCutopia has good intentions, but the power could be used on actual projects, not mining.

As for the beneficial comment, like you stated this is basically opinion to a sense. I am not a math expert so I cant see the real world value in finding larger prime numbers. I don't view this as important as WCG or FAH.

I would love everyone to start receiving FLDC because I believe it would be good for the FAH project and the BTC community as a whole, but I will say I am not trying to do a sales pitch to gullible and ignorant people, Im simply stating something we all know is true:
Most people will not help FAH by folding unless there is monetary gain for them. Many people doubted BTC and wanted nothing to do with it until it became valuable (A common quote was "BTC sounds great, but the world will never get onboard" and I get this alot for FAH "Sounds like a cool project, but I cant afford to run energy costs like that.")
 
Well, the world still isn't on board with BTC even with the hand full of places that accept it each year.

Yes there are many that will never take the time to mess with the clients. Those same people will not mess with converting the crypto coins either. So, that point is moot.

Yes, you are correct in the concept of BU. They receive your mining contributions and delegate them to the projects that you chose by running the specific apps. They do allow for everyone to contribute whether it be by CPU, GPU, or ASICs. It is up to the donor to decide what is logical with their own hardware. And the setup seems simpler to me than mining for myself. Some people have access to resources others don't. Also, as you have stated, not all projects support all hardware. This is a way you can support those projects with that hardware. You can use that AMD GPU to mine a financial contribution rather than the actual work units. So, it just comes down to how you define "contributing" and what is worthy. Sometimes a financial donation goes further than yet another piece of hardware being thrown at it.
 
CureCoin does require its own development, but that can be both a strength and weakness. Reliance on third party work might mean less upkeep, but it also means you can be limited to ONLY what they support/add in terms of features.

At a core level, there's surely room for both projects - more research is better, either way. I suppose it will simply remain to be seen which offers the more attractive and usable system for the largest number of people.

The biggest change is to make it as open and inclusive as possible - multiple projects issuing work, open registration in terms of who can earn (not screwing team or name settings), etc. That's the aim of CureCoin 2 (as I read the blog posts).

Adding this in later version of FoldingCoin, too, just means more room for competition. Though you might need to change the name a bit :D
 
Gilthanis said:
Well, the world still isn't on board with BTC even with the hand full of places that accept it each year.

Yes there are many that will never take the time to mess with the clients. Those same people will not mess with converting the crypto coins either. So, that point is moot.

Yes, you are correct in the concept of BU. They receive your mining contributions and delegate them to the projects that you chose by running the specific apps. They do allow for everyone to contribute whether it be by CPU, GPU, or ASICs. It is up to the donor to decide what is logical with their own hardware. And the setup seems simpler to me than mining for myself. Some people have access to resources others don't. Also, as you have stated, not all projects support all hardware. This is a way you can support those projects with that hardware. You can use that AMD GPU to mine a financial contribution rather than the actual work units. So, it just comes down to how you define "contributing" and what is worthy. Sometimes a financial donation goes further than yet another piece of hardware being thrown at it.
Click to expand...
When it comes to GPU mining, a financial donation would be about 10 times better in ratio to the cost of electricity to run them. However this is not the same for Scrypt ASICs, those may be efficient to point towards BU.
 
CrabappleNighttime said:
CureCoin does require its own development, but that can be both a strength and weakness. Reliance on third party work might mean less upkeep, but it also means you can be limited to ONLY what they support/add in terms of features.

At a core level, there's surely room for both projects - more research is better, either way. I suppose it will simply remain to be seen which offers the more attractive and usable system for the largest number of people.

The biggest change is to make it as open and inclusive as possible - multiple projects issuing work, open registration in terms of who can earn (not screwing team or name settings), etc. That's the aim of CureCoin 2 (as I read the blog posts).

Adding this in later version of FoldingCoin, too, just means more room for competition. Though you might need to change the name a bit :D
Click to expand...
Actually Counterpartyd is open source and there are tons of third parties developing apps for Counterparty currently. The 2 most notable would be Overstock.com developing an alternative to wall street stocks and LetsTalkBitcoin! developing different applications such as private forums, mass token distributions, markets, auctons, ext...

The current problem with verifying people though is trust. With CURE you have to join their team then create a username on a mining pool site with your same FAH donor name. The problem with expanding that to other teams, is someone could just clam anyones donor name that hasn't already clammed it. That is one of our biggest focuses is finding a better way to verify donors.
 
all neat and all...


but fuck Stanford and PG and FF and the horse they rode in on
there are other fish in the sea and I for one am done feeling stress and pain about my altruism




good day sir
 
jojo69 said:
all neat and all...


but fuck Stanford and PG and FF and the horse they rode in on
there are other fish in the sea and I for one am done feeling stress and pain about my altruism




good day sir
Click to expand...

I am sorry you feel that way, though i will say I am completely confused about why you seem to have a lot of contempt towards the FAH project. Would you mind filling me in on why you do not like the Stanford project?

and whats PG and FF?
 
PG - Pande Group

FF - Folding Forum

Both of these have garnered some.... er... hostility here at [H]ard|OCP.

Speaking for myself on your subject, while I am interested in your efforts, I have worked for 10 years to get where I am, and I will not be abandoning my username and and the position I have earned.
 
PG is the panda Group behind Stanfords folding at home.
Many people quit folding this year because of the way they treat the folk who donate their computer power to them. They change the requirements with little notice, so if you buy an expencive system, it may be obsolete in a shot amount of time. They need to have a better road map.
They can be very rude with posters on their folding forum.
This has been going on for years and years. This is why there are less and less folders. Why FAH is shrinking and BOINC is growing.
After this Jan. when the very exencive server hardware many of us bought will no longer be able to fold bigadv work units.peoples spent thousands of dollars on just one system, some here have several servers that will be "obsolete". PGs responce is "we never asked you to buy it"
That is justsome of their BS they pull.
 
Their point system is a total mess and folders get quite mad when they are getting good points for their GPUs, then when bad low point WUs come out it upsets a lot of folders.
We all know points really are worthless but it is all the folders have to show how much effort they put into the program. They can't get hardware and software working together and it takes them forever to get it right. by the time they do the hardware is obsolete and you have to buy a new GPU if you want to continue to fold.
They crippled Fermi GPUs to make Kelper cards work right.
For a while they were sending out WUs that were burning up GTX 9880x2 cards One guy spent 10,000
on those GPUs and the boards and all he needed,Then besides the burning up of his GPUs they changed requirements again. All that $$ and hardware obsolete.
FAH is really not a turn it on and forget about it. You have to monitor it closely.
Did I mention how rude they can be at the folding forum?
As of now there is around 12,000 folders by name + how ever many fold default name.
Quite a few folders from several teams have had enough and switched to BOINC
I folded for 9 years, seen all kinds of BS and stuck with it, up to last Fall then I finally had enough.


Here is an example of a thread at the folding forum. Great post from Granpa1 too. Bout sums up PG/Stanford
https://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26997
 
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Tell you what OP

go figure out who 7im is then come back and talk to us

I am currently in the top 25 SETI contributors and I am very, very small potatoes on this forum

A great deal of power has focused away from Vijay's project in the last year or so...you might do well to inform yourself.

I apologize for my abrupt manner, I have a lot of unresolved emotion around this.
 
Let's not turn this into yet another "F@H sucks" rant. If you don't want to participate, and many of us won't, that is fine. I feel that this is an interesting idea that deserves discussion.
 
PookTwo said:
When it comes to GPU mining, a financial donation would be about 10 times better in ratio to the cost of electricity to run them. However this is not the same for Scrypt ASICs, those may be efficient to point towards BU.
Click to expand...

PookTwo, I would agree. However, some people don't have to pay for the resources going into it and thus just like when they mined for profit, they mine for donation as well. Like I said above, that project isn't dictating efficiency. They are getting folks the option to contribute how and where they can. Nobody said you had to be smart or wise with money in order to help. I sometimes wonder if cutting a check would be more beneficial than crunching any projects work units. Hind sight is 20/20. To each their own. Hopefully, you guys get a good solution ironed out. There is no reason someone shouldn't utilize "free money" since they could put it right back into their operations.
 
jfb9301 said:
PG - Pande Group

FF - Folding Forum

Both of these have garnered some.... er... hostility here at [H]ard|OCP.

Speaking for myself on your subject, while I am interested in your efforts, I have worked for 10 years to get where I am, and I will not be abandoning my username and and the position I have earned.
Click to expand...

Sorry, was out for two days. Looks like I missed some good stuff :) So here are my respnses starting with you jfb9301 :)

Ok I am familiar with PG and FF, since I mostly talk with other crypto enthusiasts who dont know much about these 2, those acronyms dont yet exist in our circle :) I understand not wanting to give up your points, this is something that we are really working hard on finding a solution to. We cannot have a system in which we cant identify you accurately. When I go full time this is high on the lists of things to get done first quarter next year.
 
Bill1024 said:
PG is the panda Group behind Stanfords folding at home.
Many people quit folding this year because of the way they treat the folk who donate their computer power to them. They change the requirements with little notice, so if you buy an expencive system, it may be obsolete in a shot amount of time. They need to have a better road map.
They can be very rude with posters on their folding forum.
This has been going on for years and years. This is why there are less and less folders. Why FAH is shrinking and BOINC is growing.
After this Jan. when the very exencive server hardware many of us bought will no longer be able to fold bigadv work units.peoples spent thousands of dollars on just one system, some here have several servers that will be "obsolete". PGs responce is "we never asked you to buy it"
That is justsome of their BS they pull.
Click to expand...

From what I see here their rudeness has effected a bit of your guys, I am so sorry to hear that happened. I will say I dont see to much activity on the actual FF, I find all my information so far on team forums, that seems a lot better to do. Now I run AMD cards ranging from a 6950 all the way up into an R9 290x (remember i was a miner so no Nvidia cards) and none of them seem to have problems folding. Now I have noticed a drastic difference in PPD with my R9 and my 7970, but i just assumed this was due to the age of the cards and that the R9 was more advanced.

Does this have something to do with what you are saying is no longer supported, or
Is this an Nvidia support issue (because i know thats the preferred card in this world), or
is it something entirely else you are referring to?

As for BOINC, that is another thing high on the to do list for first quarter next year (but we dont want to rush it so thats not a guarantee). Many BOINC projects we would love to incorporate for Folders (we will still direct non techys to FAH for ease of use). This is something that should be available, and we can vote in the different projects maybe every month (FLDC holders receive 1 FLDCVOTE coin per FLDC every month for changes) to see which projects the FLDC community wants involved. But I will say that the FAH network is still much much larger than all the BOINC projects combined, about 3 times as large http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_distributed_computing_projects

Was the "bigadv" only available for a short time? I would assume that bigadvs did a lot more PPD
 
Bill1024 said:
Their point system is a total mess and folders get quite mad when they are getting good points for their GPUs, then when bad low point WUs come out it upsets a lot of folders.
We all know points really are worthless but it is all the folders have to show how much effort they put into the program. They can't get hardware and software working together and it takes them forever to get it right. by the time they do the hardware is obsolete and you have to buy a new GPU if you want to continue to fold.
They crippled Fermi GPUs to make Kelper cards work right.
For a while they were sending out WUs that were burning up GTX 9880x2 cards One guy spent 10,000
on those GPUs and the boards and all he needed,Then besides the burning up of his GPUs they changed requirements again. All that $$ and hardware obsolete.
FAH is really not a turn it on and forget about it. You have to monitor it closely.
Did I mention how rude they can be at the folding forum?
As of now there is around 12,000 folders by name + how ever many fold default name.
Quite a few folders from several teams have had enough and switched to BOINC
I folded for 9 years, seen all kinds of BS and stuck with it, up to last Fall then I finally had enough.


Here is an example of a thread at the folding forum. Great post from Granpa1 too. Bout sums up PG/Stanford
https://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26997
Click to expand...
Talking in terms of the layout, yes, the points system is a complete mess. It seems points can vary depending on the type of core, but not the time its going to take to do it. If I run a core 15 or 17, its getting done in about the same time and one gives a lot more than the other. Also the username system was a nightmare for me and our lead dev to go over in trying to find a good way for user verification. The multiple usernames is something so outdated. I understand its different users per team, but anyone can still fold on it. And the passkey structure is weird as well. I would love to look into developing a better point system with Stanford, but I need to have a plan in stone before I approach them with that.

The points being worthless is exactly what we are trying to improve, with the points being worthless, why not receive a crypto instead? One of the reasons I was out for 2 days was due to some recent bitcoin news that I was diving into. Bitcoin went up 25% in value yesterday and Counterparty (which we are based on) ported Ethereums smart contract system into the CP protocol yesterday http://www.coindesk.com/counterpart...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (one of many articles on the internet yesterday).

And just like in the mining world, if you are making a good profit and cards burn up, so what, thats what happens when you run GPUs all day everyday, some die. But gaining money while you preform the work offsets that cost. With BTC mining, the cards are much more intense, you OC the hell out of them, and they get HOT!!!! I burned up like 7 cards in my mining career, but with folding, one hasnt died yet on me. I dont OC them anymore, but maybe if there was a monetary incentive to do so like when BTC was minable, i would OC them again. And when they die, you take some profit money and buy more.

That is a great thread, and i will be getting involved in it after i am done on these threads. Grandpa makes a great comment, but it seems as if he is still optomistic about the direction FAH will ultimately be at next year. It seems like one of the moderators on there was a bit snappy, but Vijay seemed very helpful (and with the few conversations i have had with him, he is extremely responsive to me).
 
jojo69 said:
Tell you what OP

go figure out who 7im is then come back and talk to us

I am currently in the top 25 SETI contributors and I am very, very small potatoes on this forum

A great deal of power has focused away from Vijay's project in the last year or so...you might do well to inform yourself.

I apologize for my abrupt manner, I have a lot of unresolved emotion around this.
Click to expand...

musky said:
Let's not turn this into yet another "F@H sucks" rant. If you don't want to participate, and many of us won't, that is fine. I feel that this is an interesting idea that deserves discussion.
Click to expand...

jojo69 said:
Sorry musky, you are right
Click to expand...

Remember, we would love to incorporate BOINC. I love the idea of being able to choose which project you wish to support. Just like people went to facebook because the service overall was better than myspace or when people switched from yahoo to google, having competition is great! It forces each company (or science project for us) to thrive to be better and come out with greater inovations. If we could get FLDC incorporated in BOINC projects and FLDC takes off and people switch to BOINC instead of FAH, you can beat your ass that FAH would be kicking into high gear.

Its possible since FAH is at the top right now that they are getting comfortable, thats usually what happens, companies forget to be responsive (try and call Comcast or AT&T customer service). But I will say my experience thus far has been fantastic, though I have only been in FAH since July and the project seems very heavily developed, even though they may be forgetting about the community.

This is also something I would love to get more involved in. I will be going FLDC and BTC projects full time Jan 5th so I will add this to my plan:

Help improve the communication between folders and Stanford

Maybe FLDC can help be that middleman organization because I learn more and more and FAH everyday, and so does our team :)
 
Gilthanis said:
PookTwo, I would agree. However, some people don't have to pay for the resources going into it and thus just like when they mined for profit, they mine for donation as well. Like I said above, that project isn't dictating efficiency. They are getting folks the option to contribute how and where they can. Nobody said you had to be smart or wise with money in order to help. I sometimes wonder if cutting a check would be more beneficial than crunching any projects work units. Hind sight is 20/20. To each their own. Hopefully, you guys get a good solution ironed out. There is no reason someone shouldn't utilize "free money" since they could put it right back into their operations.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the support in the idea. One thing that hasnt come up in this discussion when referring to "free money" is the fact that someone gets paid to do this.
When we first started FLDC and didnt know much about how strong these communities are, we originally advocated joining our team. This got a LOT of negative feedback. This is actually how we discovered CURECOIN (we didnt know it existed until after we made FoldingCoin). We got lashed out at trying to pull people away from there communities. You see, we come from the ALTcoin world where everything is about the next best coin and join this pool or that pool and so on. We stopped doing that immediately once this was discovered.

But another thing that would come up is people got legitimately offended when we tried to give a coin for doing FAH work. Me and this one guy on a Jiggmin forum went back and forth awhile over this (start at post 10) http://jiggmin.com/threads/125170-New-rewards-system-for-those-that-Fold To sum it up, he was against receiving money for doing charity work and my response is that it helps in the adoption of FAH. If people use this token and have this token, it will encourage others to get the token. Also we could harness the ALTcoin mining industries power which would have enough power to get every GC project in world enough power to do what they want.... Its ashame its being wasted on bullshit coins that waste energy.

So this steams from your "free money" comment because I dont see it that way, I see this as "earned money" by putting your computer to good use.
 
PookTwo, be careful what you claim. First, when the majority of people started leaving FAH just recently, FAH did not show any decrease in available computing power from what they claimed on their website. I found that odd when several left. You can say they boosted the numbers with GPU's, but I think the numbers would have shifted a lot different.

Second, if you would like a reference then take a look at what BOINCStats has listed for SETI. http://boincstats.com/en/stats/0/project/detail I think you will find that 1.5 million + users is a lot more than 163,000 FAH claims on their front page. You will also see that SETI is listed as having 698.626 TeraFLOPS to the 38,000 FAH claims on their website. I'm sure FAH has some different current numbers, but that seems a little enthusiastic to me. Sure there are a lot of 4P systems, but one would think that 1.5 million people with even a single core pc actively running would be able to match a mere 163,000 donors at FAH. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not buying it.
 
Gilthanis said:
PookTwo, be careful what you claim. First, when the majority of people started leaving FAH just recently, FAH did not show any decrease in available computing power from what they claimed on their website. I found that odd when several left. You can say they boosted the numbers with GPU's, but I think the numbers would have shifted a lot different.

Second, if you would like a reference then take a look at what BOINCStats has listed for SETI. http://boincstats.com/en/stats/0/project/detail I think you will find that 1.5 million + users is a lot more than 163,000 FAH claims on their front page. You will also see that SETI is listed as having 698.626 TeraFLOPS to the 38,000 FAH claims on their website. I'm sure FAH has some different current numbers, but that seems a little enthusiastic to me. Sure there are a lot of 4P systems, but one would think that 1.5 million people with even a single core pc actively running would be able to match a mere 163,000 donors at FAH. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not buying it.
Click to expand...

Well speaking in the matters of FLOPS to Hashes (because i have been studying hashes for years now) if you have 1 million CPUs doing Hashes and 100,000 GPUs doing hashes, the GPUS are still 100 times faster and it seems that works with the PPD as well. My R9 290x does 200K PPD, I have 2 of them, so thats 400K PPD with those 2 cards alone. The rest of my operation is 32 GPUs and 8 CPUs doing 400K PPD, the 2 R9s are doing the equivalent. The better equipment beats the higher numbers. But I do apologize if my claims are inaccurate, but from what I can see and what is provided online, FAH still seems to be stronger than BOINC. BOINCs website currently states it has 12 Petaflops all together http://boinc.berkeley.edu/

But once again, BOINC is a fantastic project and I wish to incorporate it :)
 
As far as the argument with the other donor over accepting money for charity work, I don't have time to read those posts tonight, but I can tell you now that accepting money for donor work changes it from donor work to paid services. When you are talking about communities that take pride in helping find cures and donating their time, electricity, and hardware, you have to understand that telling them to make money doing it perverts the concept. You are stripping the humanitarian donor feeling and changing it to simply doing IT work. I can completely understand the emotion of someone in that position. Since you are coming from the other side, you need to understand the community you are trying to get on board. Most are skeptical of cryptos. Then you try to bribe them to support it by perverting their cause with it. See where that is going? You do not have an easy task ahead of you. I look at it a bit more realistically. Take that money and do more DC'ing. However, there aren't a lot of people willing to go that far because of the skepticism and the fact that a lot of DC'ers will do anything if there is a chance to make a buck off of it means that some will still support you.

SETI has many GPU's......... and that is my point. I think someone is fudging their numbers for PR.... Also keep in mind a lot of that hardware is being used between FAH and various BOINC projects....


Oh and those SETI numbers for TeraFlops is Average. Not total if you took every registered system and factored their CPU's and GPU's altogether. Einstein has much fewer users and almost matches them. So, it really is hard to tell whom is bigger when a project is not giving real numbers to work with.
 
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Gilthanis said:
As far as the argument with the other donor over accepting money for charity work, I don't have time to read those posts tonight, but I can tell you now that accepting money for donor work changes it from donor work to paid services. When you are talking about communities that take pride in helping find cures and donating their time, electricity, and hardware, you have to understand that telling them to make money doing it perverts the concept. You are stripping the humanitarian donor feeling and changing it to simply doing IT work. I can completely understand the emotion of someone in that position. Since you are coming from the other side, you need to understand the community you are trying to get on board. Most are skeptical of cryptos. Then you try to bribe them to support it by perverting their cause with it. See where that is going? You do not have an easy task ahead of you. I look at it a bit more realistically. Take that money and do more DC'ing. However, there aren't a lot of people willing to go that far because of the skepticism and the fact that a lot of DC'ers will do anything if there is a chance to make a buck off of it.

SETI has many GPU's......... and that is my point. I think someone is fudging their numbers for PR.... Also keep in mind a lot of that hardware is being used between FAH and various BOINC projects....
Click to expand...

Please do read the conversation, I make some really good points in it. I will at least sum up a small defense: Money making operations are more productive.... period.

I understand doing charity work and i love the non profit sector. But with that being said, without great incentive, you dont get great work. I worked for the Red Cross as an IT admin in North MI for $2 an hour, just enough to cover my living. I put my heart and soul into it everyday. But the other 2 members that received $2 an hour didnt do anything all day. The lady I sat next to just sat on Facebook all day and never completed anything. But since ultimately she was there for free nobody bothered her. But she thought she was doing great work because she was a paid volunteer full time, and it made her feel good about giving back to charity even though in reality she was wasting their time. Now the office admin was a full time employee, and she was awesome! One of the greatest people I had ever meet and she made a normal salary, i would guess between 30-50K since it was a small chapter. The point is, she had incentive to work hard, the lady next to me didnt. That is just how people are, there is nothing wrong with it, we all want to make a good living (I am not endorsing the lady that sat next to me actoins though, this was one of a few reasons for me leaving).

So compare that with FAH, yes SOME people will give a little computer power towards the network, but it still cost money to run, so they might turn it off after awhile, or lower the power they are willing to put towards it. Now take a crypto for example: People spend millions of dollars to hash these blockchains because it is profitable for them to do it. This is called a "win win" situation:

-It cost nothing for the coin to exist
-It creates you money to expand your operation and turn a profit without anyone having to fund that
-It incentives those who would not normally do it to start folding
-If popular enough, it creates a market in which technology advances. Never in history would SHA256 calculations need to go at the speed that BTC goes. But since there was an incentive to hash SHA256 quicker, the ASICs came out and now it does 288,000 Terahashes per second, that is huge!!

What if FLDC was to become popular enough to where an "ANTON supercomputer" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_(computer) was available to the public. Since there is no monetary sense into making an economic ANTON , it will not be done. If everyone had an ANTON running on FAH, the computational power would increase drastically. Business and profit help in the expansion of ideas and even non profit projects, it is not a bad thing.
 
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Well I happen to be one of those odd ones that do not need any incentive to run DC projects other than those I already have. Hopefully my contribution will help to create a better humanity for current and future generations. I have no problem with the concept of your endeavor and I do believe it does have the potential to increase the participation in DC projects.

I myself like my chosen DC project community and my current points. (Did I leave out the part that I am a male Homo Sapiens and thus completive) :D and the thought of changing my name to Grandpaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is not appealing to me. In fact changing anything really is not appealing to me. Although I do like to collect things such as points if I did not have to change anything the collecting folding coins would also be appealing although to me they have no more value than points do. But it is something else to compete in.

I am not a suporter of bit anything I have a problem with the corruption and what bitcoins stand for. I continually wonder what kind of society people want when they choose to try and create a alternative currency that does not support a social network of any kind :confused:

With that being said it appears that what you are trying to do may actually be trying to do something good with the bit industry. One thing to remember that for all those things you listed about the bit industry there is an opposite side to it. (For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction) I have found in my lifetime that that is the most profound statement ever made.

Anyway enough of that, I hope you can find a solution to the problem of getting people registered. I do believe it has potential and it might just be an added fun bonus.
 
Grandpa_01 said:
have a problem with the corruption and what bitcoins stand for. I continually wonder what kind of society people want when they choose to try and create a alternative currency that does not support a social network of any kind :confused:
Click to expand...

perhaps one where the supply of money is not controlled by a private banking cabal of old European families?
 
Grandpa_01 said:
Well I happen to be one of those odd ones that do not need any incentive to run DC projects other than those I already have. Hopefully my contribution will help to create a better humanity for current and future generations. I have no problem with the concept of your endeavor and I do believe it does have the potential to increase the participation in DC projects.

I myself like my chosen DC project community and my current points. (Did I leave out the part that I am a male Homo Sapiens and thus completive) :D and the thought of changing my name to Grandpaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is not appealing to me. In fact changing anything really is not appealing to me. Although I do like to collect things such as points if I did not have to change anything the collecting folding coins would also be appealing although to me they have no more value than points do. But it is something else to compete in.

I am not a suporter of bit anything I have a problem with the corruption and what bitcoins stand for. I continually wonder what kind of society people want when they choose to try and create a alternative currency that does not support a social network of any kind :confused:

With that being said it appears that what you are trying to do may actually be trying to do something good with the bit industry. One thing to remember that for all those things you listed about the bit industry there is an opposite side to it. (For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction) I have found in my lifetime that that is the most profound statement ever made.

Anyway enough of that, I hope you can find a solution to the problem of getting people registered. I do believe it has potential and it might just be an added fun bonus.
Click to expand...

For the record I dont believe your an odd one for wanting to do this for free, with ur computational power you have I cannot imagine the electricty you pay each month for helping with medical research. My hat is off to you sir :D

I understand not wanting to change the username, while we brainstorm behind the scenes over here, do you by chance have any suggestions on a possible solution to this problem of verifying someone? Because I assume you are "Grandpa" that gets 6.2 million FAH credits each day, but how do i know you are really Grandpa? There is the problem at hand with keeping usernames.

Just to clarify with your third paragraph: Did you mean you feel Bitcoin deals with corruption? If so I would like to clarify what I assume you are referring to (Silk Road, drug money, laundering, ext...). Bitcoin, like the internet, can be used for illicit activity. But this is not what it is about. It is about taking the control of the money out of the hands of the banks and into the peoples control for the very first time in human history. The US Federal Reserve is a private central bank (yes private) that controls the money supply in the world a decided by their 10 some odd board members. These people are not voted into office or selected by representatives, they are chosen internally by the FED themselves. Also allowing governments to control the money leads directly to corruption and misuse. From bailouts of failing companies, to printing debt their is no end to the madness. What many people dont realize is when the US "borrows" money from the FED it is printed with interest already attached. For example: Lets say the government wants to borrow $100 from the Fed. The Fed says "Yes we will print that money for you, but now you owe us $101." The problem with this, is not only is the $100 created out of thin air, but the $1 doesn't even exist! So the 18 Trillion dollar debt illusion will never be solved as it is impossible to pay back. I could ramble all day about this topic, but perhaps that would need to be on a separate thread. I do believe that centralized money systems are the real corruption, not crypto. People who print money lie, blockchains that verify transactions dont.
 
jojo69 said:
perhaps one where the supply of money is not controlled by a private banking cabal of old European families?
Click to expand...
Grandpa_01 said:
LOL

And that has exactly what to do with a social network or society :confused:
Click to expand...

The society behind Bitcoin is the technology itself. And what gives the blockchain and BTC related technologies value is the technology itself. Here are some great advantages that give BTC value:
  • It transcends nations, politics, religions, cultures and regulations
  • It requires no trust. (in the short term). It can’t be counterfeit
  • It can be transparent
  • It can be programmable
  • It can require multi-signatures
  • It can be spent over the internet without a bank account, credit report, identification, and pre-permissions
  • It can store irrevocable and time stamped records of transactions
  • It allows you to keep your identity from being stolen
  • It allows movement across borders
  • The same wallet can be used anywhere in the world with a connection to the internet
  • It can move independently of banking rules, laws, and restrictions
  • It can be used to resist corruption
  • It can be made to settle contracts without other parties
  • There are no age requirements
  • It is more difficult to be used as surveillance
  • Bitcoin as money bandwidth
  • It can be the basis of a new eco system
  • It can upend centuries-old money monopolies
  • Democratization of money
  • Gives the unbanked population access to banking features they might not otherwise enjoy
  • It can be extremely hard to steal
  • It represents economic freedom

source and description for all these points can be found here http://bitcoinmagazine.com/12846/yo...nsic-value-twenty-two-reasons-to-think-again/
 
I do like how you use the word's (It can be) the plain truth of the matter is most or all the things it can be, it is not.

It is a very selfish monetary system (No taxes = no social safety net)
No taxes = No law enforcement
No Taxes = No Government
It is very easy to sell something for bitcoin and not deliver goods (No legal recourse) just as well us Monopoly money there is no difference there.
the list can go on an on of things bit currency can not do.

The way bit currency is currently set up and without some sort of Government backing there is no recourse for corruption or criminal concupiscences.

Thieves love bit currency they can get your bitcoin by selling you something get it traded to real currency and never deliver any goods.

Anyway that is something I do not care to get into. Those who choose to defend it will defend it to the bitter end. I do not need to discuss it, I will choose a backed legal tender and pay my taxes, I do believe in the social safety nets and that I you and everybody else should do our parts in supporting society as a whole.
 
One thing is getting paid to fold in not what PG intended folding to be.
It started and has always been maintained to be a voluntary donation to their cause.
They say now as they have said since the beginning we want your unused computer cycles.
Put your computer to good use while you are not using it. They never asked anyone to buy hardware strictly to be used for their project. With the formation of team and being awarded points, it grew in to a competition and people started to assemble folding farms and off to the races it went.
I have seen cheating because of the points and people/teams wanting to get ahead.
My fear is when you add money to the mix it will be an incentive to cheat the system. When people cheat it hurts the science being done. There are many ways for people to cheat at FAH, if and when PG finds cheaters either just one, or a whole team, I have seen peoples points reset to zero, they have reset a whole team to zero when it is wide spread and a team cheating effort.

As far as me wanting to be paid in alt-coins for folding, not really. The fact that the FBI, BCI,DHS,IRS,ATF and God know what other government agency are all taking a close look at every retailer sales that accepts BC and looking at all the exchanges. This is something I want no part of..
Besides it was founded as a donation of spare computer cycles, FAH and crunching is doing a good deed, donating to charity, to science. Paying it forward. Maybe the WU I fold or crunch may save some little kid with Cancer, cure 1 person with Aids, find a new comet or planet,

As far as PG changing the point system to work with any form of alt-coin, I think a snowball has a better chance in hell than that ever happening.

I watched curecoin start out at $1.32 go down to $0.005 1/2 of 1 cent to 1 penny it trades at now.
I have a hard time understanding how someone can make money out of thin air and say it is worth something. You can't take it to the corner deli or gas station and use it.
Plus there is a fee to convert coins to USD from what I heat it is not cheap. I heard $30
to convert to USD. So how can something like this work with out the backing of a country or based of gold or silver it has value because someone not ever seen on the internet says it does?
I hear ya on the Fed. reserve and all. A dollar sure does not buy what it used to; but I can still spend it anywhere I go.
If the USD collapses chances there will be riots in every major city, the store shelves will be empty in 3 days, the internet and phone services will be cut so all that money alt coins, stocks and bonds will not be accessible anyway. So if you're banking on alt-coins to survive that, I doubt it.
Buy gold, silver, bullets, guns and pocket knives. Stuff you can barter and trade with.

If you can do it, and it works out, it is a good thing to get all that mining power to good use folding or crunching.
Good luck with your project, it looks like it will be a tough haul.
 
Grandpa_01 said:
I do like how you use the word's (It can be) the plain truth of the matter is most or all the things it can be, it is not.

It is a very selfish monetary system (No taxes = no social safety net)
No taxes = No law enforcement
No Taxes = No Government
It is very easy to sell something for bitcoin and not deliver goods (No legal recourse) just as well us Monopoly money there is no difference there.
the list can go on an on of things bit currency can not do.

The way bit currency is currently set up and without some sort of Government backing there is no recourse for corruption or criminal concupiscences.

Thieves love bit currency they can get your bitcoin by selling you something get it traded to real currency and never deliver any goods.

Anyway that is something I do not care to get into. Those who choose to defend it will defend it to the bitter end. I do not need to discuss it, I will choose a backed legal tender and pay my taxes, I do believe in the social safety nets and that I you and everybody else should do our parts in supporting society as a whole.
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Well the thing is, just like the internet, in order to use it anonymously, you must know what you are doing. The guy from silk road got caught after 3 years because he leaked his IP once which they actually traced back a BTC wallet from that IP to his address, so actually BTC being transparent helped in the take down to the Silk Road (3 years is not that long for a multi million dollar criminal organization to be taken down).

As for regulations, I am one of those Bitcoiners that think regulation needs to happen. And since a majority of people arent familar with proper ways of masking IPs and setting up Tor (or even setting up a BTC wallet) they will use services that Paypal, NCR, Dell, Coinbase, ext.. (all except BTC now) have set up. With using those services YOU ARE TRACKED just like a bank account. You could use the internet for evil today, but you must know what your doing. You could also use cash for evil (which people do everyday) which doesnt even have a trackable ledger. The big misconception about BTC is its anonymous, its actually the opposite. I would love to talk to anyone about BTC if they desire, my email is [email protected] but I wont flood this thread with more BTC talk. I will get back to the matter at hand.
 
Bill1024 said:
One thing is getting paid to fold in not what PG intended folding to be.
It started and has always been maintained to be a voluntary donation to their cause.
They say now as they have said since the beginning we want your unused computer cycles.
Put your computer to good use while you are not using it. They never asked anyone to buy hardware strictly to be used for their project. With the formation of team and being awarded points, it grew in to a competition and people started to assemble folding farms and off to the races it went.
I have seen cheating because of the points and people/teams wanting to get ahead.
My fear is when you add money to the mix it will be an incentive to cheat the system. When people cheat it hurts the science being done. There are many ways for people to cheat at FAH, if and when PG finds cheaters either just one, or a whole team, I have seen peoples points reset to zero, they have reset a whole team to zero when it is wide spread and a team cheating effort.

As far as me wanting to be paid in alt-coins for folding, not really. The fact that the FBI, BCI,DHS,IRS,ATF and God know what other government agency are all taking a close look at every retailer sales that accepts BC and looking at all the exchanges. This is something I want no part of..
Besides it was founded as a donation of spare computer cycles, FAH and crunching is doing a good deed, donating to charity, to science. Paying it forward. Maybe the WU I fold or crunch may save some little kid with Cancer, cure 1 person with Aids, find a new comet or planet,

As far as PG changing the point system to work with any form of alt-coin, I think a snowball has a better chance in hell than that ever happening.

I watched curecoin start out at $1.32 go down to $0.005 1/2 of 1 cent to 1 penny it trades at now.
I have a hard time understanding how someone can make money out of thin air and say it is worth something. You can't take it to the corner deli or gas station and use it.
Plus there is a fee to convert coins to USD from what I heat it is not cheap. I heard $30
to convert to USD. So how can something like this work with out the backing of a country or based of gold or silver it has value because someone not ever seen on the internet says it does?
I hear ya on the Fed. reserve and all. A dollar sure does not buy what it used to; but I can still spend it anywhere I go.
If the USD collapses chances there will be riots in every major city, the store shelves will be empty in 3 days, the internet and phone services will be cut so all that money alt coins, stocks and bonds will not be accessible anyway. So if you're banking on alt-coins to survive that, I doubt it.
Buy gold, silver, bullets, guns and pocket knives. Stuff you can barter and trade with.

If you can do it, and it works out, it is a good thing to get all that mining power to good use folding or crunching.
Good luck with your project, it looks like it will be a tough haul.
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Its great that they asked for only unused computer resources, but as you stated, when competition is added to the equation, then people start buying farms to produce more points. FLDC just adds another incentive to buy more equipment to put towards the network. And also as I stated previously, if FLDC catches on and people start trying to fold faster and faster, all of a sudden you will have venture capitalists looking to create faster ASIC folding equipment to be economic for people to purchase.

And looking at CURECOIN, they are still the 3 fastest team even with the drop in value, the crypto world loves this stuff, that is undeniable, so trying to get miners on board is the goal. We need that energy to be put towards something good.

Credit Cards where excepted almost nowhere when they came out, it took a good 15 years for it to catch on. BTC and ALTs are in yeart five. Another interesting fact is when the internet came out, 200 billion dollars was invested into it in 1995, as of July this year, BTC has had 250 billion dollars invested in it even though it has a market cap of almost 6 billion. This technology will be part of the world one way or another, it is a trustless decentralized system in which you depend on code, not people (and the code has not had any hacks to date, as for credit cards have 10,000 fraudulent transactions everyday
 
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