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I've seen some crazy shit written over the years in audio forums, but wow dude, you have taken it to a whole other level.
Why don't you just take pics of your gear for us to see so you can gain some credibility... Make sure your user handle and date stamp is on a piece of paper with the gear you're photographing.
What I've always noticed is people like boonie, never own the gear they argue about... So go ahead and show us what you own boonie or just go away.
I've seen some crazy shit written over the years in audio forums, but wow dude, you have taken it to a whole other level.
Why don't you just take pics of your gear for us to see so you can gain some credibility... Make sure your user handle and date stamp is on a piece of paper with the gear you're photographing.
What I've always noticed is people like boonie, never own the gear they argue about... So go ahead and show us what you own boonie or just go away.
Personally I find Boonie's posts a breath of fresh air, I find a very large percentage of the audiophile industry to be full of deluded dorks that spend way too much money on snake oil and have no concept of audio engineering or the placebo effect.
I have no interest in what gear he has ... maybe he has beats headphones because he likes the color ... i don't care
What I care is about is his posts. So far they are quite welcome by bringing to the table factual technical information.
If what he posted is indeed malarkey ... please do point out the technical flaws in his posts ... that would actually be quite helpful [/QUOT
I guess Jesus started with one follower.
I've seen some crazy shit written over the years in audio forums, but wow dude, you have taken it to a whole other level.
Why don't you just take pics of your gear for us to see so you can gain some credibility... Make sure your user handle and date stamp is on a piece of paper with the gear you're photographing.
What I've always noticed is people like boonie, never own the gear they argue about... So go ahead and show us what you own boonie or just go away.
Hyperbole much?
As I said, I like the technical aspects of his posts. To me it seems that he knows what he is talking about however I'm not an audio engineer so I could be wrong about that.
If indeed what he posts is incorrect it would be nice to see technical counter arguments rather than personal attacks
BOOnie: I completely disagree! My PSB B4's sound perfect with my NAD D3020 hybrid amp. I sit less then 3' away & they are perfect with my sub! Sorry, I think you know everything about speakers, but you don't!
Let me tell you a quick story. Initially, Venomous & I exchanged a few words & as I wouldn't give in to for my love of my Cambridge Soundworks 2.1 ideology. Then, I decided to dust-off an older Marantz receiver sitting in my basement & listen to him. Bought a pair of decent bookshelf speakers & then a solid subwoofer. Guess what? He was right! I was sold. I couldn't believe I held on to my thoughts (& defended them) until I listened to what was in front of me. Here's the punch line....Venomous was a complete "gentleman" about the whole scenario! Here's where the difference lies ,Venomous was trying to help me out & didn't sit on his "High-Horse" Bottom line is presentation. If you sit in a an Ivory Tower & semi-preach, then the masses could have an insurrection. Get my meaning?
I know I wasn't apart of this but I have to disagree. The second part of your first post was anything but a "gentleman" IMO. You say your system is perfect. Maybe to you but I bet the JBL LSR308s would sound better or at least, be more accurate, but since your system is so perfect. Would you mind posting a frq response graph? What do you use to EQ your system? Being it sounds perfect, I am interested in learning about it. I don't remember ever reading B00nie stating he knew everything about speakers. He simply stated the flaws in other peoples post.
I don't think Venomous was a gentleman at all either, at least in this thread. Saying B00nie doesn't know shit when he backed up most of what he said was far from polite...
As for spaceman, his system would have comb issues. You can read about people saying don't do it all over the place on Avsforum with using two bookshelfs as center channels. The waves begin to cancel each other out... B00nie, is it a waterfall graph that shows this or would a standard frq response show it? I honestly don't know... I sold my omnimic awhile back.
Like I said, show us your gear boonie...
Both will show it but the regular amplitude graph will show it better, waterfall graphs are best suited to figure out time related events, cabinet resonances etc.
I don't think you'll find many graphs on multiple speakers because like I said, it's generally considered a bad practice. Multiple speakers CAN work for you but then you'd want to build a line array that becomes a line source. If you just slap a bunch of speakers playing in same room at the same time the end result is not going to be accurate if the signal of each speaker is not delayed to compensate for the difference in distance. This is why professionally made concerts can have multiple speaker arrays and still sound good, the audio engineer has used line delays that match the measured distances between the speakers.
The biggest problem with 'regular' measurements is that due to the horrible problems most regular speakers have in the higher audio band, most amplitude graphs are smoothed to 1/3 oct so they don't show the huge spiking otherwise apparent in the graphs. Those graphs you see with regular speakers (especially room graphs) that show just a smooth line are totally misleading. In reality they show a big saw tooth. Very directive speakers that are well designed and built do not get all sawtoothy (or more precisely the scale of the sawtooth is typically much reduced and matching anechoic measurements), unfortunately this qualitative difference is hidden in the typical smoothed graphs.
Compare the middle graph (smoothed) to the unsmoothed graph. Those show a very different story don't they?
Going slightly off topic here... That is very interesting.
1. I thought when people measure their home theaters like on Avsforum, they can use something like a Omnimic or REW etc then they use a miniDSP/2496 etc. to attempt to fix the nulls and peaks? When they do that, don't they generally play all of the speakers at the same time? I know Omnimic released a 5.1 disk... Can't you change the smoothing you get in the softwares?
2. Interesting as you talk about about the line arrays and time alignment. We had a terrible system in our auditorium, it has rooms on the back side that can be shut off if need be or used for more seating, with them it holds 1,250 people.Anyways, the speakers for the rooms where mounted in the ceiling behind the audience and they weren't time aligned. Creating a muddy delayed sound. With the new system we are getting this year, we are getting a 3 part line array across the front and then another line of speakers in front of the audience in the lecture rooms that will be time aligned. Should be a major upgrade.
3. With that graph, couldn't you correct some of those nulls and peaks with EQing or acoustic treatments?
Thanks!
Like I said, show us your gear boonie...
Yup...Let's see it BOOnie!
I generally agree with most of what B00nie's saying, but it's much farther than I would go... especially when we're talking low-mid fi gear here.
Live sound has to deal with room reflections as well. I personally don't like how music sounds in a totally dead room, it's like being in a recording booth and there's a disconnect between brain expecting reflections due to your eyes seeing a room and none of that happening. I don't really enjoy highly directional speakers as well although I've only really listened to a few that had other flaws.
If you're monitoring for recording purposes it's cool to try to get really close to that totally neutral sound but you can get into Asperger's-land fast by chasing audiophilia measuring all your drivers' harmonic distortions, your DAC's f/r, etc.
At a certain point you surpass what the engineers were using when recording and then what are you chasing? Some sort of mythical totally dead room that can reproduce a stereo recording in its virtual soundspace without any coloration? If so and you can deal with the imaging changes, just go with headphones. I'm not really a headphones guy... maybe this is why.
I like acoustic treatment to smooth out harshness and dramatically uneven response, but I like how speakers can fill up a room with music and sound and create a live space. It sounds like we're veering away from that now which for monitoring playback is OK but I don't think that ought to be the goal of hi-fi. Maybe we disagree there.
This is a weird dick measuring contest and it doesn't really matter what he owns. He may have access to tons of equipment that's not his at work or elsewhere.
The guy could be reincarnated Jim Thiel and have a pair of 1970's realistic plywood specials at home for himself.
This is a weird dick measuring contest and it doesn't really matter what he owns. He may have access to tons of equipment that's not his at work or elsewhere.
The guy could be reincarnated Jim Thiel and have a pair of 1970's realistic plywood specials at home for himself.
Yeah, gotta be honest, I have no idea what showing his gear will accomplish.
To address a more humorous 2nd point:
That was Neil D. Tyson (it was his quote) in that gif, not Carl Sagan. LOL.
So put a picture up with your handle in it...
Not caring and being right are two different things. You can always argue about factual things in audio but of course never the subjective side. This is why I take anyones claims which defy the factual knowledge I have with a grain of salt.
In this case the evaluation dragonageinquisition gave actually was verified by hard data. He can take it as a compliment, his monitors do indeed suit well for computer use and near field monitoring, they just do not suite so well for any other kind of listening anymore.
In this case dragonage gets my compliments for having a good ear and I still don't lose my original stand, quite the contrary actually. It's not impossible to build speakers that are suited for both near field and far field listening. Directivity which I speak so much about, when controlled, can achieve this feat. Once a speaker has a good controlled directivity it's response will closely match the near field response also out in the far field. If the speaker is built for monitoring it most likely is also bi-amped and active with linkwitz-riley crossovers that help with listening angle issues.
The vast majority of passive home speakers do not fill those requirements however.
Anyhow, here's one of my electrostatic rear channels from behind:
Hell yeah, the cabinet reminds me of the 90's ML's kinda. I think I recall you saying they're DIY and active. When my warranty runs out on my ML ESL's I'm thinking of converting them to active, at least my front 2 for music but I'd really like to get into a new place before I do that then I can go IB with the subs.
Yes, these are older hybrid builds. I was never completely satisfied to them which is why they're now working as effect channels. They were not directive enough for my taste. My main ESLs are 200cm x 50cm barn doors, playing full range with subwoofers assisting. When the ESL gets this big it becomes very difficult load for the amplifier but on the other hand it plays good amounts of bass all by itself. The larger panels give an extremely clean and tight mid-bass (naturally they're active with a shelving equalizer that corrects the bass rollout). I run them at 4000V bias, going higher than that starts to produce too much arcing.
I think what many of us are not happy about is that BOOnie is saying that if you purchased off-the-shelf book speakers, then you made a mistake. It's subjective & he makes it sound as if we don't enjoy what we have!
You can suspect whatever you want and it won't change the facts lol.
What did you use for measurements and what sort of room correction do you apply to the problem area that is the crossover frequency in vertical plane? Or did you skip or fail to understand anything from my text? I'll give you the benefit of a doubt with the Dynaudio and interchangeability with nearfield monitors. That would be a bit odd though since general design requirements are different for near field monitors and bookshelf/stand speakers. That being said, if you found one exception to the rule it makes no difference. The OP probably will have some other brand of bookshelf.
Edit: The Dynaudio C1 does indeed seem to be designed more as a near-field monitor than a bookshelf. It's near-field and anechoic measurements are excellent but its room response is pretty grim to look at (source: Stereophile review of 2008):
The Stereophile reviewer actually verified exactly what I was talking about - the speaker that is designed to work well in near field does not necessarily have the correct balance in far-field anymore and vice versa.
You trolling bro? First you say Dynaudio C1s sound like $50 logicraps in nearfield, now you claim some random untreated room measurements in a random room tells you something about the speakers? If you've seen any Stereophile review you know their room measurements look terrible because they do a addendum living room measurement. No speaker is going to sound perfectly linear in every room due to room nodes, that's why room correction exists.