heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
I can't wait for this to come out.
This. And a nice Bay Trail keyboard docking hybrid at a good price.
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I can't wait for this to come out.
Says the Anti-Microsoft fanboy of the year. The fact that is can be done is all that matters.
DPI scaling has been garbage in Windows since its debut. As an example, we have major problems at the hospital I work at related to DPI scaling and apparent UI element sizes. Namely, Nurse A comes along and thinks "the screen is too small" (translation: "The desktop resolution is too high for my taste.") Nurse A has seen or heard from Nurse B a method to "make everything bigger", which usually involves going in to the DPI settings and scaling to 125%, rather than doing something slightly more sensible, like reducing resolution to 1024x768. Yes, 1024x768 scaled to fill a 19'' display is still the universally preferred desktop configuration among all nursing unit staff, including the doctors
Nurse C comes in during the next shift and needs to use the patient transfer application, only to find that because the screen is scaled to 125%, the text input fields for MM/DD/YYYY cannot be selected by the cursor; they have been crowded out by the scaling. The EMR application also looks terrible and suffers from the same text field issue. Nurse C goes to another computer until Nurse D comes along because this is the last remaining free computer on the unit. Noticing that the screen by now is some bizarre pastiche of pixellated applications, a ticket is called in to the helpdesk and is paged out at 2 AM.
It's maddening how little Microsoft has done to fix this even in 8.1. If Windows 9 or 8.2 or whatever is up next fixes this once and for all, by giving us a way to make UI elements on the screen larger at higher resolutions (eliminating the need for scaling down to 1024x768 or up to 125% DPI), I will instantly become the biggest advocate for its enterprise deployment on the Internet.
I can understand wanting stuff in the box, particularly stuff that's been in the box for 18 years. But the true power of Windows has always been in it's great 3rd party support. I'm considered as much of a Microsoft fanboy as anyone and I've never been all that compelled by the Windows desktop shell UI. It get's the job done but there's nothing really all that amazing about it. I guess that's one reason why I don't have problems with no Start Menu, it's just an app launcher made up of static icons and links with a local inline search. The search was probably the thing I missed the most but 8.1 does mostly bring that back.
Corporations/Business can't just install Third party software, It costs money, deployment problems. Eventually 8 is gone get shoved down my throat I will have no choice but to deal with this sub par product.
Uh, unless you still use ancient CRT screens there, scaling down is pretty horrible as a solution.
Apps corrupting from DPI changes are a software design problem also, not only OS problem.
There's an obvious arrow pointing down, how that's confusing or not discoverable I don't know. And I don't think moving in two dimensions throws too many loops in this case.
It's not obvious true but it's not particularly difficult and it is very consistent. Every modern app prints, shares its data with other apps if it has the capability and controls its option the same way. That replaces a lot of chrome that could be here or there and the need to keep rediscovering the same things repeatedly.
My work laptop is a 15.6" 1920x1080 screen running 7 using 125% scaling at native resolution. Works great. Again, low resolutions are where the problems occur.
Menu fonts and sizes are controlled by Windows in most applications, Outlook is no exception.
Modern apps are desktop apps though, if you at the add-on Modern Mix that easily proves the point. Also if you take a desktop window that's always on top like the Task Manager it can be on top of an modern app while the modern app stays underneath. With Modern Mix modern apps behave as you described with App Nap, the will suspend when underneath other windows, desktop and modern.
The Modern UI is heavily sandboxed at this point, there's a lot more capability there than exposed currently.
Strong 3rd party hardware/software support is primary reason that corporations and businesses use Windows in such large numbers.
It isn't obvious, though; the arrow is not present when first opening the Start Screen. It appears several seconds after moving the cursor, and it appears in an area where the user is not looking.
You can test this on 8.1 right now by opening the Start Screen via the Windows key on the keyboard, which is Microsoft's preferred method for accessing the Start Screen. Hit the key and then look for the arrow; it's not there. At this point, most people will start looking at the tiles to find what they want, perhaps moving the cursor from tile to tile as a guide. They may or may not find what they want. They certainly will not catch the arrow fading in the lower left corner. Their attention is elsewhere.
The app listing is very nice to have, but it just takes too long to drill down to it. Contrast with Launchpad on OS X; click the Launchpad icon in the Dock (which is available by default, right next to the Finder icon) and you instantly have a list of every app on the system, with high res icons distinguishing each app.
Microsoft can do better, IMO.
It's not difficult once you know it's there. Again, my issue is intuitive implementation and whether a feature is easily discovered. Hot corners are by definition not easily discoverable. They require foreknowledge. To contrast, OS X supports hot corners, but the user must go into System Preferences and manually enable them. Additionally, the user can then define the action that occurs in each of the four hot corners.
One would think two Microsoft products should interact pretty smoothly, though...
They aren't desktop apps, at least they aren't presented that way. Metro presents the desktop as a Metro tile, not the Metro tiles as desktop apps. At least that's how I interpret the Metro metaphor. App Nap solely exists as an interaction between multiple desktop windows, not between different spaces; to work as you describe it, App Nap would work to suspend multiple Spaces in OS X, which it doesn't do.
Sandboxing doesn't mean no access, it means managed access. Microsoft can pretty easily write in the necessary hooks to allow apps to request certain functions.
It did take me a bit of time to get used to the new swipe motion to bring up the apps screen. On a mouse, it was no problem, I saw the arrow right away. On my tablet, the arrow was not there and I could not figure out at first what to do. (I thought there was a bug or something initially.) That does not make it unintuitive though, just that I had to make a change. (The swipe in 8.1 is better.)
This arrow is so close to the Start Button/Hot Corner that I don't see how one could miss it unless they are having an issue with the Start Button/Hot Corner. Even if one is new to the Start Screen, if they go looking for a Start Button in the lower left corner they are going to see that arrow.
Yes, you are correct about the arrow not displaying when hitting the Windows key, but as soon as an arrow key is pressed it's going to display, that's something that doesn't make sense I agree. But again, it's in a place close to the Start Button, how can one not see it?
There is the option of setting the Apps Screen as the default screen. And it's one click away while on the Start Screen.
And I do agree with your point, I'm merely pointing out that the hot corners are far from the only thing in Windows that have no obvious chrome.
The standard UI chrome is handled by the OS, the apps settings within the app. If one were increasing the size of menu fonts in one application it would be reasonable that they would want that setting to apply system wide.
No they aren't presented that way but modern apps are COM applications like DX apps.
And sometimes managed means no. You wouldn't want a modern app ever to access to certain parts of the file system, direct access to all memory, run with admin privileges, etc.
One will miss the button because as soon as they bring up the Start Screen, the viewer's attention is no longer on the area where the start button was. Their attention is drawn upward and to the right, following the horizontal UI's layout.
But then one encounters a similar UI problem when trying to go from the app menu to the Start Screen.
The whole thing needs to be rethought or worked around. If tiles could function like folders then one could have an "All Apps" tile, problem solved.
Of course. My issue is just that they're the primary means of accessing high level functions. Hiding system files is OK; hiding the reboot function, not so much.
Disagreed. Why would wanting larger font sizes universally in Outlook translate into wanting larger font sizes universally in Paint?
Yes, sometimes the system denies access. That's fine. But that shouldn't mean total lockdown, it just means supervised visitation.
If one ever looks at the lower left of the screen, something that average Windows users have been doing for 18 years now, they are going see that arrow.
There could be a permanent text link saying "All Apps" or some other solution perhaps better than this one, I just don't think that the arrow is anywhere near as subtle or confusing as you're saying. I've seen several kids use my Windows 8 tablets and those arrows are a pretty common element in modern apps and they there meaning was readily obvious to all of them.
Dragging and moving a window, Aero snap, pinning at web site to the task bar, drag select, drag and drop move or copy, etc. are all pretty high level functions that have no chrome and few cues. At some point or another most everyone had to learn something about the UI of any computing device they are using and not everything was obvious. Microsoft had to cues and tips for Start Menu back in 1995 when it was new. I dont disagree with your point, I'm only saying there plenty even on the desktop that have no cues that are pretty important functions or at the very least extremely useful.
An individual program could have its own settings for menus fonts and sizes but then that kind of defeats the purpose of a global setting. So then an app would have yet another setting that switch between its own settings and the global ones.
But total lockdown is exactly the model in iOS and that does indeed seem to serve the purpose of lightweight, fast and dependable environment quite well.
Good lord. You take a cake for something.. Something special.. You just DON'T FUCKING GET IT. Licensing costs money lots of cash strapped companies just can't justify licensing shit that was in OS previously.
Good lord. You take a cake for something.. Something special.. You just DON'T FUCKING GET IT. Licensing costs money lots of cash strapped companies just can't justify licensing shit that was in OS previously.
Your idiotic line of REASONING/Logic didn't answer the point I made.
MS has lost the Windows 8.x gamble with the corporate world,
Unfortunately, as anybody who has ever done anything with IT knows, it's far to early to make that judgment call. Considering how long it took most shops just to hit Windows 7, it would be downright illogical to assume that Windows 8 will never wind up in the corporate world just because most companies haven't moved to it yet.
Who says Windows is a mess? I know who does say Windows works and works well: the few billion end users who can't be bothered with wondering whether a bunch of hobbyists can be relied upon to maintain their OS of choice.
You're trying to compare a diffuse, unrelated, ad hoc group of PC enthusiasts who think Linux is cool with a compact, organized, motivated corporation who sees Windows as the way to support themselves and their families. That and a huge dollop of your own wishful thinking.
Why does the rabbit run faster than the fox? Because the fox is running for his dinner, the rabbit is running for his life.
the rest of the world is just cursing it daily in between OS reinstalls and different types of infections, even after paying for AV.
Billions of users use windows because they don't know about the alternatives - and because every OEM pushes windows by default to new computers.
So lots of people were complaining about these things with Windows 7?
And on the desktop all of the alternatives have their own problems. None of the desktop alternatives comes close to having the 3rd party support of Windows for instance.
Were and are. And will continue with Windows8 except now they also have the modern UI to complain about
Can you specify more closely what you mean by 3rd party support? Drivers are generally not a problem with linux with a couple of exceptions.
Software is plentiful as long as you stick to general home/office use. Best of all it's nearly all free. A large part of windows software can be run conveniently through wine.
Some specialized software which uses Microsoft native libraries or DRM are still harder to get to work on linux - but wine is advancing version by version.
I've migrated many friends and relatives to linux successfully. Their only gripe so far has been that Microsoft Silverlight doesn't work out of the box on content which uses DRM. That can be circumvented too by piping the stream through wine / ie.
Yet Windows 7 was a historic success commercially and even in the PR world.
3rd party support means 3rd party support. That means all that 3rd parties do to support a platform. And on the desktop Linux completely lacks the breadth and scale of this support.
And all of this software on the desktop runs on Windows. And free is great, if you have no investment in the content that you're producing. The cost of Office compared to the value of the product that comes out of it is nothing for the people that really use it and need it.
So go through all of that hassle to make something work for which it was never designed, forgo support, all in an effort to save next to nothing.
There are plenty of people that can use Linux on their desktops if they don't want the latest hardware and software.
Can you specify more closely what you mean by 3rd party support? Drivers are generally not a problem with linux with a couple of exceptions. Software is plentiful as long as you stick to general home/office use. Best of all it's nearly all free. A large part of windows software can be run conveniently through wine.
I've migrated many friends and relatives to linux successfully. Their only gripe so far has been that Microsoft Silverlight doesn't work out of the box on content which uses DRM. That can be circumvented too by piping the stream through wine / ie.
A monopoly is most often very successful, isn't it?
My parents bought a new Win7 laptop. Paid AV and all. In 2 weeks it was infected with something that killed all file associations when combofix tried to get rid of it. Great success, flawless user experience as you said!
Openoffice can do anything the paid office can, even better now that office has that horrid ribbon interface. Blows my mind every time I'm forced to use it.
It more than pays off when I no longer get support requests from friends/family. I haven't had to fix even a single computer now (outside of work) for 2 years. Each time someone comes to me with a messed up windows I slap a preconfigured linux on their computer and everyone so far has been amazed how stuff just works. Fast, reliably and no infections. The said Silverlight is used only on some very badly designed sites and luckily silverlight is being phased out. Even MS saw the mistake it did
A monopoly is most often very successful, isn't it?
My parents bought a new Win7 laptop. Paid AV and all. In 2 weeks it was infected with something that killed all file associations when combofix tried to get rid of it. Great success, flawless user experience as you said!
Most of the 3rd party crapware is never even wanted by end users.
The world is so full of useless software.
The irony is that due to inherent faults in windows these 3rd party softwares are often the trigger which makes windows autodestruct May I stress that none of the end users that I've migrated to linux so far have reported wanting any 3rd party software not available for linux. In a 5 year timeperiod. With one exception.
Sure runs on windows, but you have to pay for windows to run it. Then after you pay you get penalized for it: Change motherboard? Reactivate. Change harddrive? Reactivate. Oh the joy of typing numbers to a bot for minutes.
Openoffice can do anything the paid office can, even better now that office has that horrid ribbon interface. Blows my mind every time I'm forced to use it.
It more than pays off when I no longer get support requests from friends/family. I haven't had to fix even a single computer now (outside of work) for 2 years. Each time someone comes to me with a messed up windows I slap a preconfigured linux on their computer and everyone so far has been amazed how stuff just works. Fast, reliably and no infections. The said Silverlight is used only on some very badly designed sites and luckily silverlight is being phased out. Even MS saw the mistake it did
I thought Android was the #1 OS today, as many people like yourself will proclaim. I do understand of course that Android isn't a desktop OS but by current legal standards, Windows would probably not be considered a monopoly.
So with 700 million or so devices online, Windows 7 is a failure because of this? I never said anything about Windows 7 being invulnerable to attack. But your argument only reinforces the reason why a curated app store is necessary for Windows. People will install all kinds of stupid stuff and do all kinds of stupid things. I'd have been happy to tell your parents how to avoid infections without any need for paid AV.
True to some extent, like the viruses that you mention, no one will both with that on desktop Linux because of it's extremely low market share.
And the world is full of very useful software that neither one of us has ever seen.
My I stress that they probably don't do much beside web browsing and/or you running native Windows software for which there is no native Linux equivalent.
Read threads in this forum. All of this is simple or requires a simple phone call. How many people like your parents are going to change motherboards? Bottom line, Windows is valuable software. You can't even give Linux away on the desktop and it have much impact.
Nonsense. Anyone using advances capabilities of Office will say the same.
Wow, you really don't have any idea how to support Windows.
So far. It's the second most common server platform already however. Hardly obscure.
The channels through which one compromises a server are completely different from those for a desktop. Nobody checks emails or downloads arbitrary files on a server, so making malicious email attachments, etc. for Linux is not fruitful, because in the target market (the desktop market), Linux is still obscure.
Trollollollollol. I don't confuse desktops, servers and mobile devices.
Linux stays secure without a 'curated app store' that forces devs to mutilate the GUI of their apps. Not to mention the cut MS takes from the distributors + the bad function of metro apps in general.
Curiously enough my parents have used their computer for years just as they previously did without getting infections to linux. What magic tricks would you recommend to a 68 year old woman who wants to click facebook links and open e-mail puppy attachments? I know - the windows way of security. DONT DO IT!
So far. It's the second most common server platform already however. Hardly obscure.
May I stress that the vast majority of regular end users do not need anything else than a working browser, flash, email, open/libreoffice, gimp and perhaps some hobby software for AV content creation - all which is readily available for free on linux.
A huge amount of people have hardware failures every year. Millions in numbers. You don't have to tell me about the windows activation process. I've owned around 20 personal windows licenses over the years and have grown very wary of the little touches in them. I don't see much any value in Windows anymore. I wouldn't buy licenses if it wasn't still needed for gaming use. Even that is getting fixed with Steam kicking speed to the linux adoption.
Care to cite some examples as I call your bluff. Btw: most of the people who are using 'advanced' features of office are wasting resources on something that actually would belong to a real software developer instead of a "guy with an office"
And I'm glad there's a much safer and easyer alternative which enables a noob like me to eradicate problems like a magic stroke.
It would be much much harder to infect a linux desktop user without tricking the user to grant privilege elevation manually.
Linux lacks activex, dlls from year 1990s, office integrations etc. which make windows use extremely hazardous.
Also the variety of different linux distros also make wide sprung attacks harder as they have varying different methods of operation.
It's free. Right now some of the ISO versions try to install clean (so an upgrade key doesn't work) but the final will be available as a free patch via either the Windows Store or just using Windows Update.
The new "start button" and the quicker access to your program list really does make the whole OS feel quicker and easier. It doesn't fix everything, but I've been really happy with the beta release.
If we talk about the retail version not beta, will Windows 8 users have the option to get free ISO of windows 8.1, so that they can make a clean install it instead of upgrade?
Good question. I'm pretty certain you'll have an option to download an ISO of Windows 8.1, but whether your activation code works on it might come down to what your Windows 8 license is.
If you have a full-on OEM license, I can pretty much guarantee it'll work just fine. If you have an upgrade license (designed to upgrade from Win 7 and earlier) you might not have the same amount of luck.
You can always DL the RTM version and give it at try. Just make a system image before you begin so you can go back if needed.
My HP Envy 15 TouchSmart came with Windows 8 inbuilt. So it should be an OEM license. Although HP didn't provide me a Windows 8 DVD