Um..saying OS X is simple means you obviosuly aren't a Nix power using bashing your way through SSL into your web server
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Apple a No-Show at CES
- Thread starter CommanderFrank
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Um..saying OS X is simple means you obviosuly aren't a Nix power using bashing your way through SSL into your web server
Actually yes it is. In what way is Windows more superior? It's crappy use of a registry and horrible memory management?
...and so is file sharing - but that doesn't stop anyone. Legality has nothing to do with this conversation. This is about pure and simple comparison. One OS stops you, the other just assumes that if you buy 500 iMacs for your company - that paying for the OS is probably negligible at that point.
...and so is file sharing - but that doesn't stop anyone. Legality has nothing to do with this conversation. This is about pure and simple comparison. One OS stops you, the other just assumes that if you buy 500 iMacs for your company - that paying for the OS is probably negligible at that point.
That is a rather stupid statement. If you buy 500 iMacs you have already bought 500 copies of OSX. Even then Apple does expect its users to buy new copies for each system and even then unlike Microsoft Apple sells computers directly and makes money from them. Apple's computers are likely their biggest source of revenue for OSX. Microsoft does sell computers, they sell the OS. They don't make a single penny off of PC sales, only the OEM keys that the builders order in bulk and the versions the consumers and businesses buy.
Mouse acceleration is easily disabled (or at least significantly reduced with minimal effort). The whole DirectX suite. It's a bit more friendly for touch input than OS X. Perks related to its market share like support for more third-party hardware and greater software availability. Various little things here and there like cut+paste functionality in Explorer, window edge snapping ("Aero Snap"), window previews in the taskbar, a somewhat more useful implementation of safe file deletion, etc.
Neither OS is superior to the other in every way. Claiming that OS X is inarguably better is as bad as claiming that Windows is inarguably better. If you want to look like a shill, though, it's a valid approach.
Correction: One OS tries to stop you. Its attempt to do so is pretty easily thwarted. Microsoft's never been able to implement a system of validation that can't be compromised.One OS stops you, the other just assumes that if you buy 500 iMacs for your company - that paying for the OS is probably negligible at that point.
Sixthsense
I Suck Fat Ones
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If that's your arguement, you're obviously not looking at the bigger picture. I guarantee you, if you sold your desktop or laptop in 2-3 years time from the time of purchase. The resale value of a windows based laptop or desktop wouldn't even come close to what you could sell a Macpro or Macbook pro in the same amount of time.
I should know, I had a XPS Gen 2 and it was worth diddly squat in 3 years. Quite the opposite when I sold my Macbook pro.
Please tell me you are not serious. A 2-3 year old mac is also worth almost nothing. If you build your own PC and take good care of it you can get a decent amount from it. You have to know how to sell something in order to get money from it. I will give you that Apple's require ZERO effort to sell because of the cult following. But that is not to say that you can't still get a decent amount from a PC.
All things devalue with time. Selling an Apple laptop is like selling a status symbol. Young people buy them to say they have one. Most of them are not informed, and just buy the Apple for cool symbol on the back. The usefulness of either a mac or pc is still the same after 2-3 years. And this goes back to the price vs. performance argument that Apple will lose every time. Go price current gen hardware for a PC and then go on Apple's site and price the same part. I'll bet PC wins on the price and performance is the same if you price the same part.
Define "almost nothing".
nissanztt90
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Id rather be a savvy middle class lackey than an upper class hipster d bag.
I can afford to own an Apple computer. I just choose not to. Why? I rather spend that same amount of money building a kickass system with hard drives in RAID, big ass video cards in CrossfireX, etc than choose to cut off my balls and go with what Apple gives me. Your statement makes me think you're just a smug a-hole.
nissanztt90
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He is. He insinuated that middle class people hate Apple because they cant afford Apple products and are forced to build there own PCs. lol
It was a hypothetical, congrats for arguing semantics of a hypothetical, I'll admit, it was a poorly thought out one - but still a hypothetical. I also don't need to be lectured on how software/hardware economics work - that's pretty obvious.
Zumino Zufeilon
Gawd
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All things devalue with time, sure.
But my 4 year old Blackbook (2.4Ghz C2D, 4gb Ram, 250gb HDD) would easily sell for $700 (check ebay) (if I was allowed to sell it, long story). How much would a comperable spec HP/Dell/Toshiba/Lenovo go for now? Again, checking ebay puts it at ~$300. And I also have a 4 year old Dell that is essentially spec-for-spec with my Blackbook (the Dell has a 320gb hdd, and a dedicated low end ATI card whoohoo!) and the Blackbook is significantly faster, sitting right next to each other in most tasks. (Photoshop, illustrator, Powerpoint, etc).
I will ask you the same question you tried to ask.
Go Price a comperable system to a 11" MBA, or a 15" MBP, or a 21.5 or 27" iMac. Keep in mind ALL things that are valid. E.g. weight (on laptops), form factor (iMac), screen quality, battery life (laptops), etc, etc, etc.
You will find that the MBA's, the MBP's (the 15's at least) and the iMac's are VERY hard to beat dollar for dollar.
The 11" MBA is only ~100-300 more then it's closest competitor (Alienware M11X), but is 3lbs lighter, and 1/2 the width. It's also running an NIX OS versus a windows OS. Now there are distro's of Linux that work on the M11X, but they can be a bit of a PITA to get running. On the other side, the MBA comes with a NIX OS right out of the box, and where you see "locked down", I see a Terminal, and an OS that is almost impossible to actually break.
The 15" MBP's are most equal to the Envy 15"s. Which are heavier, and get nowhere near the battery life w/o an additional slice battery that adds to the weight even more. The most basic axiom in Laptops is "Power, Portability, Price, Choose 2". The MBP's have more a bit more portability at the cost of a bit more power (graphics chip mainly), and end up at almost exactly the same price.
The screen in the 27" iMac is almost $1000 alone. Go price it. From anyone other then Apple. Look up 27" IPS monitors, they are all $1000 or more (and they all basically come off of one assembly line IIRC). You add on a full speed i5 or i7 computer to the back of the screen for only $700(or more if you spec it up of course). Sure, you could build a tower with the same power for less (call it $200 less after the OS licence, etc). But it wouldn't take up almost zero space either.
Are Mac's right for everyone? Of course not. Are they the "Overpriced, undervalue garbage"? Of course not. Each person makes their own decision if it's worth paying extra for the quality, stability, and ease of use of OSX (and security inherent in a Nix environment). And given apple's market share growth over the past 10 years, I'd say quite a few people find it to be a good value. But to each their own. But there is no reason to belittle people who find it to be a good value, if you don't.
And at the same time, it is monumentally ignorant to belittle people about something you've never really used. Go actually use a Mac for 2 months, then come back and you'll have some idea of what you're talking about.
Shill...no, Nix systems are better than Windows, yes.
Cut and Paste in explorer and Aero Snap? Really.... That's what you are going with? Direct X sure I can understand...but seriously? cmon...
This is true; however, most of your end users purchase their copy of windows on a dell much like people purchase their copy of OS X on an Apple.
What I said is I have both. Affording both. Because that kick ass system, runs a joke of an OS, that I wouldn't do any serious work on. Windows is for gaming and for admins who fail at linux.
I'm not smug, I'm just better than most of you who can't get over that open source mostly sucks ass and windows is for open mouthed breathers.
Oh, not forced to build your own, forced to pay a monthly fee for some Dell P.O.S.
It's the same type of people who buy a case of Pabst over a six pack of Micro Brew. They argue how awesome Pabst is - when really it's piss in a can. Same analogy but inset Windows for Pabst and Mac for Micro Brew...
...then there are the real hipsters who use Linux because it's the cheapest and has a "hip" following so they do it too, when Linux is just an Open Source version of OS X...and it shows
Lawl umad? I've used a mac. When I actually went to school I was a Web Design major so I used macs every day for quite some time. I will say that I was quite content with using them, but I would not buy one over a PC by any means. Also as of late OSX has started getting viruses just like a Windows PC, does anyone even recall the Facebook bug that targeted Apple users specifically? I will give you that Nix sure does help alot as far as security, but it is by no means impenetrable.
ToastyBread
Limp Gawd
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The MBAs are fairly over-priced given some of the dated hardware within. The integrated 320M is decent for what it's required to do, but the Core 2 Duos are fairly dated. You're essentially paying for the design of the system, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Don't make it out to be some amazing value however.
The 13" MBP is almost a joke hardware-wise. The 15" and 17" MBPs are decent, especially now that they're finally using i5s and i7s. However, you can get a well-built ASUS i7-based sytem with a better GPU, more RAM and a larger HD for less than what the lowest-cost 15" MBP comes in at ($1800). Once again, a person is paying essentially for the design/styling of the laptop and for OS X.
The 27" iMac is a surprisingly good deal outside of the fact that the GPU is somewhat taxed by GPU-intensive applications.
So besides the fact that the M11X is running a more powerful-gpu, an equivalent (or more powerful) processor based upon how you spec it, how exactly is the MBA a better deal? The biggest complaint about the M11X is its screen quality (something I have no doubt the MBA has over it), but otherwise, the 11" MBA really can't compare...
Almost impossible to actually break? I think attendees at Black Hat might have something to talk to you about...
Personally I'd take the Dell XPS 15 over either - equivalent or better CPUs, better graphics, and with the 9-cell battery, equivalent battery life.
I love how you only list a single positive for that iMac. What if the monitor fails? Oh, well, there goes your entire system while be repaired. What if a single part fails? Oh, well, there goes your entire system. What about upgradability with time? Oh, well, outside of RAM, guess there goes the system as well.
Sure, it takes up less space. However, a person could buy a separate $1000 IPS panel, build a nice mATX or mITX system that uses up very little space itself, use wireless devices, and essentially have a similarly low-footprint system while still having some future expandability. Sounds like fewer compromises/lower cost to me! (That's not to say the iMacs aren't nice, just that it's not exactly all roses and sunshine as you seem to think it is).
Don't confuse Apple's tremendous market growth with their market share of desktops/notebooks. While sales of Macs have been increasing, Apple's market share has largely been driven by mobile devices (first the iPod, then the iPhone and to a extent the iPad).
I actually do use Macs, and regularly have since 1998 (in fact, I have three in my house right now along with my gaming PC and a Windows laptop). I actually do know what I'm talking about...
You asked. I answered. I prefer OS X, and for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't mean I think it's better than Windows in every single way imaginable. If I were to genuinely believe that, I would have to throw any semblance of objectivity out the window and base my opinions entirely on a grossly-skewed bias.
Sure tell yourself that buddy. Open source is actually very great once you configure it specifically to what you need.What I said is I have both. Affording both. Because that kick ass system, runs a joke of an OS, that I wouldn't do any serious work on. Windows is for gaming and for admins who fail at linux.
I'm not smug, I'm just better than most of you who can't get over that open source mostly sucks ass and windows is for open mouthed breathers.
Then again why am I even bothering to talk about this. You're at Hardforum and you treat this as if it's a soapbox to preach your bullshit love about Apple.
Zumino Zufeilon
Gawd
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Actually, I'm annoyed by hypocracy to be honest. "Apple vs. PC" is the "Ford vs. Chevy" of the computer world, and just as stupid IMO. Both have up's, and both have downs. And I'm the first to call out either side for being fanboys. Sadly, on this forum it's mainly defending Mac's, but on other forums, it's pointing out the idiocy of Apple Fanboys.
Check the sig, I build my own desktops at home. For various reasons I have to use OSX at work (not rewriting/recompiling a model that took 4 years to get running just to use Windows, especially when I'm quite happy in OSX thank you).
And to correct your misunderstanding. That "virus" was a trojan or a worm (depending on which "OMG END OF THE WORLD" event your refering to). There are a 1/2 dozen trojans/worms which can affect Mac's, but each requires the user to be an idiot. There will never been a system that is resistant to ID10T errors, but you can't claim that a single trojan (or even a 1/2 dozen) means that a Mac is less secure then a WinPC which has how-many-uncounted-virii/worms/trojans/malware/etc? Oh sure, 6 is bigger then zero, but it is still a lot smaller then 100,000, no?
It was a hypothetical, congrats for arguing semantics of a hypothetical, I'll admit, it was a poorly thought out one - but still a hypothetical. I also don't need to be lectured on how software/hardware economics work - that's pretty obvious.
If you don't want to be called out on a stupid statement, don't make it.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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What the fuck does any of this have to do with Apple not being at CES? All I see is some guy calling people mouth breathers while using his upper class education to systematically destroy the English language, and a bunch of people basically calling him a pretentious twat.
Apple is really never at CES. Who cares?
Apple is really never at CES. Who cares?
<blink, blink>
...Linux is just an Open Source version of OS X...and it shows
Wait.. What?
Bwhahahahahaha!!!
Oh Jesus! You're killing me. You my friend don't know what the fuck you're talking about. As a regular user of all three OS's mentioned, I have to say you're not helping the usual Apple fanboy stereotype for idiocy and ignorance.
Apple fan boi fight! But haven't you realized that this one is FAR beyond reason or any semblance of reality?
OS X may be superior for others. For me, I prefer Windows. I like the way it looks, I like way it runs, among other things. It's what I'm accustomed to and I very easily know how to make it do what I want it to.
I have little experience with OS X and really have no interest in picking up an Apple product to use it. If it weren't such a hassle to get a Hackintosh set up I would probably install OS X just to see what the hype is all about.
Stop saying one operating system is better than the other. Everyone has their own preferences. If you like OS X, good for you. Don't try to rub it in our faces that you're superior to us Windows users because you're just going to make yourself look like an asshole.
And the same works the other way.
I have little experience with OS X and really have no interest in picking up an Apple product to use it. If it weren't such a hassle to get a Hackintosh set up I would probably install OS X just to see what the hype is all about.
Stop saying one operating system is better than the other. Everyone has their own preferences. If you like OS X, good for you. Don't try to rub it in our faces that you're superior to us Windows users because you're just going to make yourself look like an asshole.
And the same works the other way.
Snowball effect. In a news story that doesn't open many avenues of discussion, a slightly off-topic post is going to capture enough attention to start an avalanche.
It's still about Apple, though, so it's still vaguely on topic.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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Yep, it happens almost every time. I just expected it to be more about Apple hardware than an OS war.
Most Apple topics in this section go one way or the other.
Zumino Zufeilon
Gawd
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You miss that the base M11X is a weaker c2d then the MBA comes with. And is 3lbs heavier, and has a shorter battery life, and has a traditional HDD (vs. a SSD). It's a tradeoff. The M11X has a better graphics card, but on a lower resolution screen, and considering it's an "ultraportable", it is significantly less portable then the MBA. Which one is right depends on the person. It's not "an amazing value" it's an equal value. Which considering how many people say there are no good values in Apple products, is kind of the point. It's a choice, more portable, less power (sameish price) or more powerful (for gaming, oddly the base CPU is actually slower in the M11X then the MBA), and a lower res screen but less portable.
Agreed, the 13" MBP is in need of an overhaul, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something soon for it.
You're of course missing the portability argument again. That ASUS i7 based system is going to be heavier, and get quite a bit worse battery life. Most of those systems I see are 8-10lbs, vs. the 6 for a 15" MBP, and get 2-3 hours vs. a 7-9 hour real life battery in the MBP. It's a tradeoff, it is not as "cut and dry" as you make it. If you want a portable gaming desktop, the ASUS is a better system, if you want a powerful laptop, the MBP's are arguably better.
See above.
You misunderstood "break into" instead of "break". OSX (and most nix environments) are a LOT harder to break. As in, "Grandma does something stupid and kills the computer". Or in my case, "hey, let's try this . . . oh crap, that didn't work", kinda thing.
And that is your choice. After owning a few generations of DELL's (Latitude's and XPS's), I wouldn't touch one with a 100 foot pole. There are a few Lenovo's I'd be ok with, or a few HP Elitebooks, but there isn't a Dell made that I would use.
Also, adding the 9-cell battery into an already heavy laptop pushes it's weight over 8lbs, again, 2ish lbs (or 33%) heavier. Which IMO degrades it's portability.
And for most of the population of the planet, other then the monitor going bad, how is this any different for them? How many people are going to fix their own Motherboard, or install a new DVD drive, or format/reinstall a clean Win install? How many never even upgrade their RAM.
Face it, the vast majority of users will never be affected by those questions. For those of us that are, it's another question. But The answer is I take it to an Apple store (or an Apple certified repair center in my case) and it's back in 3 days. Even the old 12" Powerbook that got dropped almost 10 feet was back and working in 3 days.
Funny, I was talking about their market share of Desktops and laptops, not MP3 players, or Phones, or tablets. Their raw COMPUTER market share has increased tremendously in the last 10 years. Now that might be driven by people getting an iPod/iPhone/iPad and going "hey, this is nice" and deciding to get a Mac as their next computer, but that's still their raw computer market share going up.
And I'm pretty sure I wasn't directing my comment at you, but rather those who have never done more then turn one on and play with it at Best Buy. As I said in another post, both have ups and downs. It's not that I think one is better then the other, I think that fanboyism on both sides is stupid and pointless and I have limited tolerance for idiocy. (Especially after having spent the holidays with my in-laws. . . )
This all kind of distracts from the "duh" value of the initial post. Apple hasn't gone to CES in at least 15 years, why would they start now? Declaring it "telling" that their not going is pretty stupid IMO.
Ocellaris
Fully [H]
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What part of OSX do you feel is "too damn simple"? Its the OS, its not supposed to be a mystery box, shit is supposed to just work.
and when it doesn't "just work"?
I have had so many cryptic issues on Mac products, the problem is that there is never that additional troubleshooting layer for many things, or it is buried VERY deep. One example is the wireless settings, if you cant get it to work with the few simple settings in the GUI it can be a serious PITA when it fails.
nissanztt90
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Oh, not forced to build your own, forced to pay a monthly fee for some Dell P.O.S.
It's the same type of people who buy a case of Pabst over a six pack of Micro Brew. They argue how awesome Pabst is - when really it's piss in a can. Same analogy but inset Windows for Pabst and Mac for Micro Brew...
...then there are the real hipsters who use Linux because it's the cheapest and has a "hip" following so they do it too, when Linux is just an Open Source version of OS X...and it shows
Cant afford and being cheap are two different things. Buying Pabst is being a cheap ass. I use Windows. I build my own PCs. I drink "Micro Brew". Ive owned and bought for others many Dell laptops. I dont pay monthly fees and neither do they. Years later they still work and I still think Apple sucks. WTF your talking about i dont know, other than some deluded Apple fanboy rant.
I'm not sure what he was talking about when it comes to monthly fees with Dell. Lease-to-own program perhaps? Dell has pretty great warranty and they fixed my monitor that was fucking up for free on a refurbished laptop. Oh ya Apple doesn't do that for free because if it breaks, it's as if you broke it.
Totally OT, (Isn't the whole thread?) but I've actually had hipsters tell me, "but I like PBR."
I'm completely and utter flabergasted as to how this has come to pass that PBR became "cool."
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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It happened about 7 years ago, which should make it less scene. IMO it tastes like lobster scrotum.
nissanztt90
2[H]4U
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They spent all their money on Macs and were forced to buy cheap beer. Since they were cool for buying Macs, Pabst became cool by association. Hows that?
Isnt that about when Apple became cool? My theory is bullet proof i tell you...
Spartan1000
Gawd
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