DOJ, Schools Settle over Kindle's Blind Access

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
The U.S. Department of Justice has announced a settlement in the case against Amazon’s Kindle that alleged the e-reader violated the Americans with Disabilities Act. The schools in question agreed not purchase, recommend, or promote use of the Kindle DX.

The federation has said that while it appreciates the Kindle's text-to-speech feature, the "menus of the device are not accessible to the blind...making it impossible for a blind user to purchase books from Amazon's Kindle store, select a book to read, activate the text-to-speech feature, and use the advanced reading functions available on the Kindle DX."
Click to expand...
 
No doubt the automobile companies will be next. I'm not picking on the blind, it's a terrible thing but many devices already exist for the blind to listen to talking books.
 
BillR said:
No doubt the automobile companies will be next. I'm not picking on the blind, it's a terrible thing but many devices already exist for the blind to listen to talking books.
Click to expand...

Approximately 11 billion, but we have to cripple the entire world to the level of the lowest common denominator.
 
I'd like to start off by saying I'm hearing impaired, so I understand the desire to have some things accessible to me. But I realize that it's impossible to make everything available to me, so I compromise as best as I can by using resources available to me.

With that in mind, I think the suit against the Kindle is a bit far fetched. Books have been available in Braille for the blind for as long as we can remember. It's like giving a blind person your family photo, or a deaf person a music CD (without the lyrics in the cover). We have to make compromises and figure out other ways to make media available to us. I can ask a person to tell me what is said on the CD or go online and find lyrics. A blind person can do the same thing - ask someone to help them "see".

It's not a perfect world, but we can't stop everything just for our sake.
 
Steve said:
The U.S. Department of Justice has announced a settlement in the case against Amazon’s Kindle that alleged the e-reader violated the Americans with Disabilities Act. The schools in question agreed not purchase, recommend, or promote use of the Kindle DX.
Click to expand...
So let's deprive all children of a great tool to get them to (and help them) read since a small minority can't make the most of it. There's your government at work. Blind people have seeing eye dogs to get around the city, why can't aides help blind children use the Kindle? Again, such stupidity.
 
Azhar said:
With that in mind, I think the suit against the Kindle is a bit far fetched. Books have been available in Braille for the blind for as long as we can remember. It's like giving a blind person your family photo, or a deaf person a music CD (without the lyrics in the cover). We have to make compromises and figure out other ways to make media available to us. I can ask a person to tell me what is said on the CD or go online and find lyrics. A blind person can do the same thing - ask someone to help them "see".

It's not a perfect world, but we can't stop everything just for our sake.
Click to expand...

My first thought was of the braille books as well. They already have books that are the same text presented in a different way - why can the universities not be allowed to give kindles to those that can use them, and braille books to those that can't? The idea that they get something different (even if a little harder to use) isn't new, but until they can be cured what else can you do?
 
Hmm, I'm pretty sure every textbook I ever used was not accessible to the blind. There was definitely no braille or text to speech available on the table of contents or index, thats for sure.

I sympathize with the desire to have an equally useful device for the blind. I think it is moronic to try to enforce that it be the same exact device.
 
Guess I'll have to buy my daughter her own kindle for use at school. Its insane that

Why is it non-disabled students should be punished because other students cant make use of a device. There are already accommodations for students with disabilities, why cant they substitute some type of audio book device. I dont know if any with a feature set of the Kindle but so what.

So should we get rid of physical education because some disabled students cant participate? That may seem like taking this to an extreme but its the same thing. I would argue that every aspect of school could be less or not beneficial to a certain disability group so lets just get rid of school
 
How is this even an issue? Did the school also sue Dodge because the blind people can't drive thier vans?
Another example of sue-crazy society.
 
Steve said:
The U.S. Department of Justice has announced a settlement in the case against Amazon’s Kindle that alleged the e-reader violated the Americans with Disabilities Act. The schools in question agreed not purchase, recommend, or promote use of the Kindle DX.
Click to expand...

Just recomend and promote the Kindle in posters and other print material. The blind wont know any better.
 
"will not purchase, recommend, or promote use of the Kindle DX, or any other dedicated electronic book reader, unless the devices are fully accessible to students who are blind and have low vision."

Are you for friggen serious...How are they going to read if they are blind? Yes there is Braile, but this is an electronic device, not a book with Braile. This makes me so irritated they can take something out of proportion so badly. What a waste of time and effort on the part of the DOJ, *beep* them. Sorry for being angry, but when a request is ridiculous, it's foolish
 
This device isn't meant for blind people. I wanna go live in an igloo sometimes jus to get away from this crap.
 
Last time I checked, regular books aren't accessible to the blind. Just because it's an eBook means it's automatically supposed to accommodate the same people the originals didn't?

Sure, it'd be great if the Kindle was vision-impaired friendly; but this seems more like a case of people with overblown expectations.

Of course, like regular books with a impairment-friendly interface (braille), maybe Amazon could release an equivalent version of the Kindle. That'll probably be far better than to try to make a one-size-fits-all device.
 
I hope none of the above posters lose his or her eyesight in the near future.

I wonder how many of you would be able to cope with vision loss? - by my experience, not very many

How many of you would be demanding an accessible Kindle instead of paying for overpriced adaptive technology to access electronic information? If the accessibility was a design requirement, Amazon would not have to spend time and money to defend the inaccessibility.

In relation to accessibility on the Internet, it has been over 10 years since the W3C has been refining the Web Accessibility Initiative Guidelines ( http://www.w3.org/WAI ).

It is unfortunate that accessibility is not a design requirement for electronic devices and appliances. When accessibility is not considered to be an afterthought, it will become affordable for all.
 
The Americans with Disabilities Act was expanded quite a bit during the last Bush administration. It expanded on the definition of what is considered an activity that the act covers for protection. Reading was added to the list. Thus, these kinds of lawsuits now exist even though they are completely idiotic.

The law basically puts 99% of the products available in the line of fire for lawsuits. Inlcuding just about every single video game ever made.
 
HalifaxPete said:
I hope none of the above posters lose his or her eyesight in the near future.

I wonder how many of you would be able to cope with vision loss? - by my experience, not very many

How many of you would be demanding an accessible Kindle instead of paying for overpriced adaptive technology to access electronic information? If the accessibility was a design requirement, Amazon would not have to spend time and money to defend the inaccessibility.

In relation to accessibility on the Internet, it has been over 10 years since the W3C has been refining the Web Accessibility Initiative Guidelines ( http://www.w3.org/WAI ).

It is unfortunate that accessibility is not a design requirement for electronic devices and appliances. When accessibility is not considered to be an afterthought, it will become affordable for all.
Click to expand...

Yet another example of blind people ruining the party for everyone.
 
HalifaxPete said:
I hope none of the above posters lose his or her eyesight in the near future.

I wonder how many of you would be able to cope with vision loss? - by my experience, not very many

How many of you would be demanding an accessible Kindle instead of paying for overpriced adaptive technology to access electronic information? If the accessibility was a design requirement, Amazon would not have to spend time and money to defend the inaccessibility.

In relation to accessibility on the Internet, it has been over 10 years since the W3C has been refining the Web Accessibility Initiative Guidelines ( http://www.w3.org/WAI ).

It is unfortunate that accessibility is not a design requirement for electronic devices and appliances. When accessibility is not considered to be an afterthought, it will become affordable for all.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to cry like a little bitch that I can't play video games or I can't read A BOOK. Much less a book that basically REQUIRES you to READ it with your EYES.

Seriously, some people get offended at that stupidest shit. Yes, if your blind or disabled your life sucks, but that doesn't mean I'm going to bend over backwards to accommodate you.
 
Again, here comes the less-than-sympathetic fully functional H-crowd to come in and rage over something they have no idea about. I mean, who cares if you can see, when it's apparent you still can't read, like most in this thread.

Who read the article?

Tell me, who is depriving who?

These publicly funded schools (you know, the blind pay taxes too!) have agreed to not promote or foot the bill for these electronic devices until they fulfill the law (the disability act).

Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Pace University in New York City, and Reed College in Portland, Ore., agreed that they "will not purchase, recommend, or promote use of the Kindle DX, or any other dedicated electronic book reader, unless the devices are fully accessible to students who are blind and have low vision."
Click to expand...

Whom has this deprived? Can you not go out and buy one of these kindles? Are you mad because public funds aren't going to support an electronic device that doesn't fulfill the law? Boohoo.

I could quote the rest of the article, highlight areas for easier reading, but what's the point? These fully functioning a-holes will just come into the thread, not read anything but spout some Glen Beck nonsense from Fox, spread some bullshit about how those disabled people are bringing down poo-old-them. It must suck to be able to have all your senses, right? Those bastards who can't see, who are they to stop public schools from promoting, selling, and distributing kindles until they conform to the law! HOW DARE THEY!

In short, the whiners aren't the disabled, they are you.
 
Actuary said:
Yet another example of blind people ruining the party for everyone.
Click to expand...

I didn't intend for my comment to ruin anybody's party. My comment was intended to encourage accessibility into everyday life. When people do need the accessible features of a product, the people just have to learn how to use the appropriate functions.

I have seen many adults lose eyesight to the point that he/she cannot drive, read product labels, or do the tasks that he/she has accomplished over many years. The adults experiencing vision loss have a harder time with emotions and acceptance of the vision loss. This scenario is the most common since the percentage of birth related vision loss is quite low. The person born with vision loss usually has a better grip on the realities of the disability

Vision Loss is defined as partial to complete loss of vision.
 
HalifaxPete said:
I didn't intend for my comment to ruin anybody's party. My comment was intended to encourage accessibility into everyday life. When people do need the accessible features of a product, the people just have to learn how to use the appropriate functions.

I have seen many adults lose eyesight to the point that he/she cannot drive, read product labels, or do the tasks that he/she has accomplished over many years. The adults experiencing vision loss have a harder time with emotions and acceptance of the vision loss. This scenario is the most common since the percentage of birth related vision loss is quite low. The person born with vision loss usually has a better grip on the realities of the disability

Vision Loss is defined as partial to complete loss of vision.
Click to expand...

No, your comment implies that Amazon should be forced to change the Kindle to accomodate the blind, which is absurd. If you can't use a product, don't complain about how it should be changed to fit your needs. There are plenty of readers for the vision impaired already, along with braille books.
 
Actuary said:
No, your comment implies that Amazon should be forced to change the Kindle to accomodate the blind, which is absurd. If you can't use a product, don't complain about how it should be changed to fit your needs. There are plenty of readers for the vision impaired already, along with braille books.
Click to expand...


See, here we go. People not reading. Amazon is not being forced to do anything. The Kindle doesn't have to accommodate the blind by itself. It has to accommodate the blind if it expects to become a standard in publicly funded universities.

There's a difference. Can you see that?
 
HalifaxPete said:
I hope none of the above posters lose his or her eyesight in the near future.

I wonder how many of you would be able to cope with vision loss? - by my experience, not very many

How many of you would be demanding an accessible Kindle instead of paying for overpriced adaptive technology to access electronic information? If the accessibility was a design requirement, Amazon would not have to spend time and money to defend the inaccessibility.

In relation to accessibility on the Internet, it has been over 10 years since the W3C has been refining the Web Accessibility Initiative Guidelines ( http://www.w3.org/WAI ).

It is unfortunate that accessibility is not a design requirement for electronic devices and appliances. When accessibility is not considered to be an afterthought, it will become affordable for all.
Click to expand...

If you are suggesting I share in the R&D and retail costs of a device that is adapted to meet the needs of a vast minority I'll pass. I'd much rather opt for the far less expensive version that lacks features I do not require.

Kindle has already done as much as they can to get that device accessible to the blind with text-to-speech. I hope it isn't expected that the touchscreen can somehow begin to produce adaptive braille over its monitor's flat surface. :confused:
 
Dreaz said:
Again, here comes the less-than-sympathetic fully functional H-crowd to come in and rage over something they have no idea about. I mean, who cares if you can see, when it's apparent you still can't read, like most in this thread.

Who read the article?

Tell me, who is depriving who?

These publicly funded schools (you know, the blind pay taxes too!) have agreed to not promote or foot the bill for these electronic devices until they fulfill the law (the disability act).



Whom has this deprived? Can you not go out and buy one of these kindles? Are you mad because public funds aren't going to support an electronic device that doesn't fulfill the law? Boohoo.

I could quote the rest of the article, highlight areas for easier reading, but what's the point? These fully functioning a-holes will just come into the thread, not read anything but spout some Glen Beck nonsense from Fox, spread some bullshit about how those disabled people are bringing down poo-old-them. It must suck to be able to have all your senses, right? Those bastards who can't see, who are they to stop public schools from promoting, selling, and distributing kindles until they conform to the law! HOW DARE THEY!

In short, the whiners aren't the disabled, they are you.
Click to expand...

their point is moot. if they opt not to go with the kindle they are still faced with having an alternative to normal books. they will have to buy a different braille version of the same book one way or the other. that's like getting angry that programming languages I don't know how to use are a hindrance to me. if I don't know how something works I find someone who can help me.
 
I think the part that you guys are missing is that the kindle and downloaded books were to replace paper school books in the classroom. Now, if there's a braile version of that book available, this lawsuit is without merit. It would be the same as providing a braile book when issuing paper books in class.
 
Actuary said:
No, your comment implies that Amazon should be forced to change the Kindle to accomodate the blind, which is absurd. If you can't use a product, don't complain about how it should be changed to fit your needs. There are plenty of readers for the vision impaired already, along with braille books.
Click to expand...

I challenge you to learn Braille and deal with the over sized books - a pocket dictionary is about 10 or more full sized Braille books. As for screen reader/magnifier software or audiobook readers, not every person can afford the $400+ US.

I hope you have compassion when a family member or friend becomes disabled or impaired by a disease.


Quote Marlfox:
If you are suggesting I share in the R&D and retail costs of a device that is adapted to meet the needs of a vast minority I'll pass. I'd much rather opt for the far less expensive version that lacks features I do not require.

Kindle has already done as much as they can to get that device accessible to the blind with text-to-speech. I hope it isn't expected that the touchscreen can somehow begin to produce adaptive braille over its monitor's flat surface.

As for implementing accessibility during design of a product, it is much less expensive to do than be forced to implement after the product has been manufactured.


Many products and software have many features that some people will never use but do not significantly increase the cost of the product because the feature is in every edition of that product. Do you consider that the accessibility features in MS Windows drives up the cost of the OS? - No more than having Win Media Player, Games, or an Email client.

FYI - Due to the use of electronic text and mp3 files, Braille is becoming less of a communication source. Today, Braille is normally used when the other technologies are not available or inconvenient.
 
HalifaxPete said:
I challenge you to learn Braille and deal with the over sized books - a pocket dictionary is about 10 or more full sized Braille books. As for screen reader/magnifier software or audiobook readers, not every person can afford the $400+ US.
Click to expand...

I challenge you to explain how an e-reader for sighted people somehow deprives non-sighted people.

Braille book for the blind, written book for the non-blind.
Braille book for the blind, electronic book for the non-blind.

OH GOD THE HORROR, THOSE POOR BLIND PEOPLE ARE NOW SUFFERING HORRIBLE DISCRIMINATION!
 
az_max said:
I think the part that you guys are missing is that the kindle and downloaded books were to replace paper school books in the classroom. Now, if there's a braile version of that book available, this lawsuit is without merit. It would be the same as providing a braile book when issuing paper books in class.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There are always alternatives. I guess schools should ban audio books because deaf people can't listen to them.

Text-to-speech is about as good as it's going to get. Why can't they have someone teach these kids how to navigate the screen? Is that so hard? Or do they want to continue to pass the buck of not having to teach, you know, their fucking job as a teacher.

Lets get rid of physical education while we're at it. Little Timmy in the wheelchair can't participate, why should anyone else be allowed to?

Braile books will have to be purchased regardless if the school uses Kindles or paper books.
 
Dreaz said:
See, here we go. People not reading. Amazon is not being forced to do anything. The Kindle doesn't have to accommodate the blind by itself. It has to accommodate the blind if it expects to become a standard in publicly funded universities.

There's a difference. Can you see that?
Click to expand...

Clearly, you didn't read the QUOTE that my response was to. Here it is again:

How many of you would be demanding an accessible Kindle instead of paying for overpriced adaptive technology to access electronic information?
Click to expand...

See, he mentioned accessible Kindle, which is where my response comes in. It's hilarious when people criticize the reading comprehension of others when, really, there own INABILITY to comprehend is the issue. You fail.

HalifaxPete said:
I challenge you to learn Braille and deal with the over sized books - a pocket dictionary is about 10 or more full sized Braille books. As for screen reader/magnifier software or audiobook readers, not every person can afford the $400+ US.

I hope you have compassion when a family member or friend becomes disabled or impaired by a disease.
Click to expand...

Oh, you mean as opposed to the ~$250 Kindle? Give me a break. As much as you would like it, Amazon has no obligation to pander to the needs of every minority group demanding "equality." I also imagine that such technology, as would accomodate the vision impaired, would require extra R&D, electronics to function, etc., which justifies the higher price. Stop crying.
 
Actuary said:
See, he mentioned accessible Kindle, which is where my response comes in. It's hilarious when people criticize the reading comprehension of others when, really, there own INABILITY to comprehend is the issue. You fail.
Click to expand...

Thanks to no edit, I can't fix the above, I'm not sure WTF happened there. It should read as follows:

See, he mentioned accessible Kindle, which is where my response comes in. Notice it says "your comment implies." It's hilarious when people criticize the reading comprehension of others when, really, their own INABILITY to comprehend is the issue. You fail.
 
Nemesis999 said:
I challenge you to explain how an e-reader for sighted people somehow deprives non-sighted people.

Braille book for the blind, written book for the non-blind.
Braille book for the blind, electronic book for the non-blind.

OH GOD THE HORROR, THOSE POOR BLIND PEOPLE ARE NOW SUFFERING HORRIBLE DISCRIMINATION!
Click to expand...


Nowhere in the article does it state that Braille books are being used. The references to Braille books are only in the posts of this thread.

Audiobooks and E-Text are accessible to people with vision loss. It is the E-reader that may or may not be accessible.

Good news from the article in question:
Amazon said Wednesday that it had no comment on the Justice Department deals. It did, however, point us toward a December 7, 2009, statement highlighting positive reactions from vision-impaired readers who have benefited from the device and announcing that it's working on new features--including an audible menu system--that will make the Kindle better for the visually impaired.

"With some key modifications, we believe Kindle can be a breakthrough device for the blind, and the team is excited about making these enhancements," the company said.


I aplaud Amazon for the upcoming adaptation of the software/firmware to allow the text to speech reader to recognise the menu structure
 
HalifaxPete said:
Nowhere in the article does it state that Braille books are being used. The references to Braille books are only in the posts of this thread.

Audiobooks and E-Text are accessible to people with vision loss. It is the E-reader that may or may not be accessible.
Click to expand...

You're continuing to miss the point.

If they can't READ the original book in the first place, how the hell are they suddenly disadvantaged by an e-book? They're not. They're in the exact same spot they were before, while everyone else is being blocked from an advancement.
 
Being one of those fully functional assholes mentioned above, I have to say I agree with the majority sentiment here. What else do colleges pay for (the real issue here) that the disabled can't use? Forget PE, what about the fully featured exercise areas in most colleges? Timmy in the wheelchair (see above) definitely can't use a treadmill... Computer labs? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but how do the blind use keyboards and mouses? I know they can turn on the disability help, but that seems like an awful hassle - oh, right, just like figuring out the menu to turn on text-to-speech.

Lack of benefits for the few do not outweigh benefits for the many. No one is being hurt if the blind don't get a Kindle, or have to learn how to use one.
 
Woo. Lots of raging here.

FYI: I'm deaf. As other deaf people here have commented, it's is inconvenient to us (and everyone else) to demand equal service. Instead, my school has a separate office for people with disability, like deafness or blindness, where they have the appropriate equipments to help the disabled learn.

Even if the deaf/blind people don't go to a school, I'm sure that the local library has one such device on hand for disabled. I know mine does.

Lay down your arms, fellas... Sheesh.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top