NVIDIA Dictates Advertised Video Card Pricing

So is [H] going to include MAP policies of all companies in their reviews? Considering it is such a pivotal issue in consumer electronics..... ;)
 
xbob04 said:
This is a silly statement at best.
Click to expand...

How so? The only useful marketing function (from a consumer's standpoint) is to provide factual information about a company's products. This is rarely the extent of what "Marketing" is today. Most of the time it's about convincing people that your product has a greater value than what it really does, thereby "screw(ing) over the consumer".
 
@Paladyn

I'm sorry to say that I agree with you to a large extent.

Today's savvy consumer has to see through quite a bit of hype to get to the truth. It's been a progression over the years for marketing people (of which I'm one). Way back in the day we just rambled on about specs and features. But in more recent years with the advent of the "reference" design things have changed a bit.

Most companies don't bring any real innovation to their design and just build the same card as everyone else. On some cards, manufacturers are prohibited from altering the design or even building the cards themselves at all. The technology has become increasingly more complex and difficult to both explain and understand.

So that leaves most marketing folks little room to maneuver, myself included. I'm lucky in that Palit has many cards that we designed ourselves rather than just throwing out the same reference design as everyone else. But when it comes to describing the most intricate workings and how the cards do their job, well, let's just say I'm no engineer. The underlying problem is that if you don't understand what you're talking about, all you can do is jump up and down waving your arms shouting "my card r0x0rs!"

When it comes to the really technical questions I have to go confer with people that REALLY know what they're talking about. From that I just try to translate the engineering into something that I can understand and that's how I present it to consumers.

So to me, the job of marketing is taking the different aspects of a product (specs, packaging, game bundles etc.) and spinning that out to the public in a way that is both comprehendible but interesting as well. The idea is to get people to understand the attributes of your product and retain that information long enough to make a good decision for what they need. At the end of the day if that means someone buys a non-Palit card based on information they got from me... As long as they wound up with the card that's best for them, I don't care what name is on the box.

It is in this way I think that Palit is an exception to your rule. Screwing consumers, IMO, implies a bit of intent. But I would completely agree with you that there is far too much marketing going on in general that is more about simply getting people to buy a product than helping them to buy the RIGHT product.

Just so you don't think I've derailed this thread, this applies to this MAP thing as well. While I certainly believe price is a major factor in what card 99% of consumers should buy, I also think they don't spend enough time researching the technology and relative performance levels. Not everyone, just some.

So if MAP takes some of the emphasis off pricing it will allow people more time to research which card is right for them, learn a little more about technology and make more informed decisions. While that would certainly be a good thing for everyone involved, I'm not sure MAP will accomplish that. I'm not sure it won't either, I'm just saying it's something to think about.
 
JimmiG said:
Why not use "$" as the number scheme for GTX380? The product lineup might look something like this:
Geforce 11 $500
Geforce 11 $400
Geforce 11 $250
Geforce 11 $180
Click to expand...

gt300 series UMAPv2 - universal minimum advertised performance.

Geforce 11 $500 - Minimum Vantage X10,000
Geforce 11 $400 - Minimum Vantage X9,000
Geforce 11 $250 - Minimum Vantage X7,000
Geforce 11 $180 - Minimum Vantage X6,000

post lower reviews... and forfeit the opportunity to submit to our nexgen NDA!
 
Spare-Flair said:
That's hilarious. Every list price for the same price UMAP Nvidia cards has a red line through it and underneath "Price too low to display" so you have to click on the card.

That's not going to stop NCIX from what it does best, importing hardware from Asia, IE: Galaxy Cards which were sometimes half the price of American builder prices.
Click to expand...

I noticed the "Price too low to display" as well and thought the NCIX marketing team went retarded...now I know who the real retards are
 
Advil said:
This isn't really an evil move on Nvidia's part. They're trying to fix a broken pricing scheme that's been going on for years. The cards come out and some never sell at a standard MSRP. After a while, people think that certain uber-sale loss leader prices are the normal price.

It makes it damn hard for small retailers like me to sell any video cards above mid range, because there are always several lowball sales prices showing online for all the high end cards whether or not there are actually any in stock and for sale at that price. It makes me look like a price gouger for selling them at a normal price. This stops that practice.

I don't really love this type of sales policy myself, but I do understand it and it does benefit me. It keeps misunderstandings on the "normal" price for certain video cards to a minimum.
Click to expand...

The issue (from the manufacturer point of view) with your type of business is that quick, large-volume turnover folks like e-tail and distribution can purchase a greater quantity of product (therefore at a lower price) and still manage to flip their stock fast enough to not get hung with it when the price changes a week later.

If you have any ideas on how I can get product into your hands and still be able to react to price changes so you can stay competitive I'm all ears. But just making someone "click here" to see the price isn't going to stop them from throwing that up in your face and saying the same stuff.

One thing I have considered doing is creating a "retail display" package for businesses like yours. You would get some non-working sample cards with boxes and promo material and you can order the card on-the-fly. That won't help you with people who want to walk out of the store with their new card right that minute, I know.

There just has to be a way for you to flip your inventory faster.
 
jwo7777777 said:
No more NVidia for me for a while.

Might this be restraint of trade?
Click to expand...

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/guidelines/pfbrprimer.pdf

Since you asked...

Price fixing is an agreement among
competitors to raise, fix, or otherwise
maintain the price at which their goods
or services are sold. It is not necessary
that the competitors agree to charge
exactly the same price, or that every
competitor in a given industry join the
conspiracy. Price fixing can take many
forms, and any agreement that restricts
price competition violates the law.
Other examples of price-fixing agreements
include those to:
(1) establish or adhere to price discounts;
(2) hold prices firm;
(3) eliminate or reduce discounts;
(4) adopt a standard formula for
computing prices;
(5) maintain certain price differentials
between different types, sizes,
or quantities of products;
(6) adhere to a minimum fee or
price schedule;
(7) fix credit terms; or
(8) not advertise prices.

I'm not offering legal advice, just quoting a DoJ document.

This whole document is a good read and is only five pages.

I hate lawyers but I'm glad it's not up to me to interpret this stuff.
 
A couple excerpts from the above mentioned document....


The more standardized a product is,
the easier it is for competing firms to
reach agreement on a common price
structure. It is much harder to agree on
other forms of competition, such as
design, features, quality, or service.

Collusion is more likely to occur if
there are few sellers. The fewer the
sellers, the easier it is for them to get
together and agree on prices, bids, customers,
or territories. Collusion may
also occur when the number of firms is
fairly large, but there is a small group
of major sellers and the rest are
“fringe” sellers who control only a
small fraction of the market.


VII. REPORT YOUR
SUSPICIONS
We encourage all buyers to report
suspicions of collusion through appropriate
channels in your organization.
The Antitrust Division cannot promise
that every reported suspicion will warrant
investigation, but we will carefully
consider all information provided
to us. Your observations may
add to information we already have
about an industry or, together with
other reports, indicate a more
widespread problem. Your call will
always be appreciated and treated in
accordance with our confidentiality
policy, and, when warranted, we will
conduct an investigation.

The attorneys and support staff of the United States Department of Justice, Antitrust Division are here
to serve you in enforcing the antitrust laws. You can call on our assistance and help ensure that all
consumers enjoy the benefits of the American free enterprise system by reporting suspicious behavior
that raises antitrust concerns. Such behavior should be reported by e-mail to:
New Case Unit
e-mail: [email protected]
 
Great, now I'm in trouble.

I should add that this isn't what I think is going on. This is purely a response to a question and not intended nor should it be construed as a real opinion.
 
The 8800GTS is faster than a 9600GT. That is the kind of shit that kicks nvidia consumers in the nards and confuses the general public.

Nvidia caused this problem themselves. They only need to release 3 cards per generation, but they go far beyond simplicity instead.

The way I see it, an entry level card should be as fast as the last generations mid range card.

An mid range card should be as fast as the last generations high end card.

A high end card should have 2x the performance of the last generations high end card.
 
Wow, I've only gotten through the first two pages of this thread, and I can't believe how annoyed people are over this. As himmy and venm11 pointed out, this is nothing new in online electronics sales. I've been researching HDTVs for about two years, and I've had to click "Add To Card" every time I wanted to see the price. Is it annoying? Not really. Is it a hindrance? Insofar as clicking a button is tough to do. Does it make me want to boycott every company that does this? Not at all.

Do I care? No.

Considering this is the forum for the [H]ardcore. Don't we eat/drink/sleep/breathe this stuff? You should already know what cards you want to check prices for. How tough is it to just add those cards to the cart of your e-tailer of choice?

This seriously reminds me of the insane (and I mean that word to the fullest extent of its definition) Democrats who would rather vote for McCain than Obama, simply because Clinton didn't get the nomination. Way to cut your nose off to spite your face.

Now if I seem harsh, just go back and read those first two pages. "Boycott nVidia." "I won't be buying their shite." "I really do hate their ... strong-arm tactics."

All they are doing is enforcing the concept of their MSRP being the price you see unless you dig a little deeper. Man, has anyone bought a CAR in the last... I dunno, three decades? This is the same concept, ONLY YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAGGLE. You just click a button.

Whew... I think I am just astounded at the hatred being tossed around because now you have to exert all that energy to click a button. It's disturbing. But whatever, F nVidia, I guess.
 
This is similar to the strategy Pioneer uses for it's plasma displays....and a big reason that in spite of having a superior product, their sales lag behind Panasonic and Samsung and now they have been forced to stop producing their own panels. This is no biggie...my 8800GT will simply be my last Nvidia product until this silliness goes away. This seems like a huge opportunity for AMD/ATI to start a marketing blitz and gain back some market share..
 
sonicDivx said:
I Think some of you are missing the point. Nvidia is NOT enforcing MSRP like the Leegin case. The reason is they can't. But what Then can do is effective enforce a minimum and most likely avoid legal challenge. Also the actual price you are paying is still variable.

Really all this means is Nvidia created too many good products (or bad depending on how you look at it) and screwed their stratified market margins. This allows them to retain their margins by forcing the OEMs to adjust pricing to maintain the stratification, thus the margins as a percentage of sales.

This is a pure stockholder/revenue thing and I'd be willing to be that in 1-2 product cycles this will be a moot point anyways. That is why there is even talk of it going away.

So yeah continue to buy informed and make Nvidia aware that this is a bad policy. Congressional action is not needed unless there becomes a real loss in competition and overall increase in product cost.
Click to expand...

Common sense, some research, I like this. Thank you for your contribution, and yes I co-sign.

Mohonri said:
You were ok there until you said "gasoline". There's no minimum advertised or selling price on that--each gas station sets its own price. There are plenty of other companies that do dictate Minimum Advertised Price, though: Apple and Cisco (Linksys) come immediately to mind. Some retailers, like Fry's, get around it by advertising at the MAP, and bundling a "free" accessory. .... Vote with your wallet, folks--that's how a market economy works.
Click to expand...
I think you have the wrong interpretation. No one is inflating the price, and no one is forcing you to buy anything. It's one more click.

Lith1um said:
Yeah right, keep telling yourself that.

And nvidia will keep praying you're right.

But in my case, you're dead wrong.
Click to expand...
In your opinion maybe, that's about it. Isn't high school still in session?



gibber said:
Yeah, probably, but too bad I've been trading/giving away all my old Nvidia cards - would have been cool to have my lineup in a picture:

"Before and After "UMAP":
Then:
Riva 128 - Nvidia
4600 - Nvidia
5700 - Nvidia
5900 - Nvidia
6600GT - Nvidia
6800 - Nvidia
7900GT - Nvidia (This was my all time favorite video card, I have to say)
Now:
3850 512MB - ATi

Oh, and I even had an 8800GT for a little while, but returned it for a refund... :D
Click to expand...
You can do what you want with your stuf, no matter how stupid or smart is wasf. It's your stuff.


turbominnow said:
Usually [H] has great posts, today you guys should be nominated for the fail blog. I am simply amazed at the piss poor content in this thread, maybe its because school is out.

Finally a good post in 3 pages. This is exactly what is happening. Remember that UMP (MAP) is little more than a marketing position that attempts to increase sales. Ultimately NV has got to much product out there that can be difficult for the layperson to discern between product lines, this hurts the margin.

There a two things that bug me the most about this thread and its reaction. First, that government is perceived as the only group that can fix the MAP problem. I couldn't think of a more inept group to manage the actions of private business than the government. Second, I am willing to bet EVERYONE in this thread has purchased something from a company that has a MAP program. If you discount NV simply because they have a MAP program you have intellectually checked out as an informed consumer. Directing purchases based on company policy rather than price/performance moves one from a enthusiast to a patsy for a political movement. Its as asinine as saying you would only buy one GPU over another because one company creates less of a carbon foot print, per GPU produced, than the other.

Finally lets remember who the players are in this game. I find a bit of irony in the fact that Etailers are so easy to rollover to such an "injustice" when they saw the potential downside of not making good money on future GPUs.

Come on [H] lets bring the bar back up and put on our thinking caps!
Click to expand...
Amen...


Chas said:
...

"You should have waited, the price might have come down." is also bullshit. Again, if you simply wait for the price to go down, you never buy. Because the price always goes down eventually. And if you wait for it to hit a certain bottom level, by that time, it's being outperformed by something else.

Again, he was ready to order now. He had the cash burning holes in his pocket, and didn't mind paying for the best. He looked at what the best was that he could afford NOW. Right now? That's a pair of GTX 280's.
Click to expand...
Most people would wait 2 more weeks to save a couple hundred bucks. Where your argument utterly fails is when you didn't notice he was dealing with a set time in the future. He could wait 1 or 2 weeks, that's more definite than say... DNF's release date.

Palit_Guy said:
I think the big issue with all this is whether it helps, hurts or has no effect on the consumer.

Once you make a decision on which card to buy based on specs you get to travel down the road of all the add-on concerns such as brand loyalty (if there really is such a thing LOL), warranty, availability, longevity and so on. The last thing on the list is price.

But surprisingly, even though it's the last thing that actually has an effect on which card people buy, it seems to have the largest impact. How many people have started out intending to buy card X only to change their mind and go to card Y when they looked at it in their shopping cart?

Making e-tailers obscure the actual price of the card makes consumers go through an extra step to make a fully informed decision. Multiply that across eight or more different brands and a couple different card models and it starts to add up to quite a bit of clicking. Eventually people will get tired of all that clicking and just pick a card. They may even glance over brands altogether.

While no single manufacturer has the lowest price on all cards across all e-tailers, one method we all use to sell cards is to win the price war in one or more specific part on one or more e-tailers. Palit is not the best known brand in the US. Case in point, [H] didn't know we have been an "official" partner right from day one. Kudos for knowing we are the biggest, though.

So pricing is something we have the ability to do a little better than most given our scale. In business, bringing a better price is as much a part of the whole product as the bundle, box and banners. We use this as a marketing tool. It's the same as some manufacturers using extremely long warranties as a marketing tool.

One of the aspects of this MAP thing is that it makes it more difficult for Palit to deploy a marketing strategy. What if NV had decided to clean things up in the warranty part of the game? How good for the consumer would it be if NV required all manufacturers to NOT exceed a 3-year warranty?

The answer is that not all people are interested in a ridiculously long warranty, but some are. That means that some people would get short changed and others wouldn't.

So I'm not really trying to comment on whether this is good or not good for consumers but I think it's a good idea to present this from a manufacturer's point of view. I see lots of consumer feedback in here but I would love to see some other manufacturers post in here as a sort of bi-partisan feedback. NV should be here as well.
Click to expand...
Another worthy post. I welcome you to our forums.

gravity said:
This is about marketing rather than trying to screw over the consumer
*snip*
You can argue the merits of this policy, but understand the reasons behind it first.
Click to expand...
I agree with that also.

Palit_Guy said:
On the other hand, you have the car industry. I've had to buy a few cars over the years and I always come away from the deal wondering if I paid a good price or not (read- got screwed).

Manufacturer MSRP, invoice pricing, delivery fees and the like all serve to confuse the issue on price. Up to now the most difficult thing we had to worry about was the mail in rebate (don't even get me started on that).

How far does this idea of getting price info being difficult go? Granted, it's just one extra click now, but if this whole idea flies, what's next? Will e-tailers find a way to allow users to negotiate a price (like cars) without every showing you the real price at all?

So I'm not saying this is bad just yet. It truly comes down to what benefits the consumer and what doesn't. The fanboi's may not like this idea, but, to some extent, it doesn't matter whether you have an NV card or an AMD card as long as you can play what you want to play at the level you wish to play it.

If you don't like the idea of having the price you pay dictated to you in this fashion, besides speaking out here at [H], the only way you have to communicate with NV is to not buy their cards if they don't react to what they see here.

I think factoring in the business practices of a company is a perfectly reasonable way to make a buying decision. If you feel a particular practice is so egregious it warrants not buying anything from them, that's your call. I don't think it's such a big deal (for now) in this case to dismiss NV out of hand, but there is no reason not to factor it in.

I remember a time a few years back people stopped buying ATI cards because the drivers were so bad. Look what happened- they got the message and turned their drivers around to be the best (arguably) in the industry. They didn't do it because of bad press (IMO), they did it because people stopped buying their cards.
Click to expand...
Difference is, drivers are a much more important part of the decision than say how many more licks i have to mske to see the price of a card I already know the price of. But I agree with you that a company practice's as a whole has a small part but this is about one practice that isn't even that major. I'm sure NV knows by now how shitty their product naming and lineup is(confusion wise). This will last until the market gets cleaned up of their shitstains.


Triple B said:
Wow, I've only gotten through the first two pages of this thread, and I can't believe how annoyed people are over this. As himmy and venm11 pointed out, this is nothing new in online electronics sales. I've been researching HDTVs for about two years, and I've had to click "Add To Card" every time I wanted to see the price. Is it annoying? Not really. Is it a hindrance? Insofar as clicking a button is tough to do. Does it make me want to boycott every company that does this? Not at all.

Do I care? No.

Considering this is the forum for the [H]ardcore. Don't we eat/drink/sleep/breathe this stuff? You should already know what cards you want to check prices for. How tough is it to just add those cards to the cart of your e-tailer of choice?

This seriously reminds me of the insane (and I mean that word to the fullest extent of its definition) Democrats who would rather vote for McCain than Obama, simply because Clinton didn't get the nomination. Way to cut your nose off to spite your face.

Now if I seem harsh, just go back and read those first two pages. "Boycott nVidia." "I won't be buying their shite." "I really do hate their ... strong-arm tactics."

All they are doing is enforcing the concept of their MSRP being the price you see unless you dig a little deeper. Man, has anyone bought a CAR in the last... I dunno, three decades? This is the same concept, ONLY YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAGGLE. You just click a button.

Whew... I think I am just astounded at the hatred being tossed around because now you have to exert all that energy to click a button. It's disturbing. But whatever, F nVidia, I guess.
Click to expand...

HAHA, good post. I especially liked the Obama , Hillary reference.
 
supergrover said:
I noticed the "Price too low to display" as well and thought the NCIX marketing team went retarded...now I know who the real retards are
Click to expand...

Actually I do believe it is NCIX which is retarded, for the Canada side anyway, considering the policy they are supporting is an illegal business practice. I buy all my stuff from NCIX, but I will not purchase from them until they change back to legal business practices.
 
cyclone3d said:
Just one more reason for my next video card to be ATI again.
Click to expand...
Thats what I was thinking as well. :rolleyes:
Actually I could really care less about having to click a "View price in cart" button. I already know what cards I am considering, and the price range I am willing to spend, so this decision by Nvdia doesn't effect me, other then causes me to spend an extra ~.1 second on newegg. If it causes Nvdia's cards to raise in price, I won't buy them, very simple.

I'll probably purchase from ATI as it looks their next cards line's performance/value will be more in line with what I am seeking.
 
Is it good for the consumer?

Of course it's not. If Nvidia wants to remove any confusion for consumers, then require all Nvidia cards to list other current cards and what the relative performance of this card is vs those (or something like that).

My guess is someone will write software to get around this problem. I think it'd be great if Pricegrabber did it.

MAP is always bad for consumers. It was bad for us when the Record industry used it. It's bad for us with respect to Audio Equipment (though manufacturers in that industry tends to control actual final prices).

Maybe if AMD gets their shit together, the competition will allow everyont to collectivley flip Nvidia off.
 
Palit_Guy said:
I think the big issue with all this is whether it helps, hurts or has no effect on the consumer.

Once you make a decision on which card to buy based on specs you get to travel down the road of all the add-on concerns such as brand loyalty (if there really is such a thing LOL), warranty, availability, longevity and so on. The last thing on the list is price.

But surprisingly, even though it's the last thing that actually has an effect on which card people buy, it seems to have the largest impact. How many people have started out intending to buy card X only to change their mind and go to card Y when they looked at it in their shopping cart?

Making e-tailers obscure the actual price of the card makes consumers go through an extra step to make a fully informed decision. Multiply that across eight or more different brands and a couple different card models and it starts to add up to quite a bit of clicking. Eventually people will get tired of all that clicking and just pick a card. They may even glance over brands altogether.

While no single manufacturer has the lowest price on all cards across all e-tailers, one method we all use to sell cards is to win the price war in one or more specific part on one or more e-tailers. Palit is not the best known brand in the US. Case in point, [H] didn't know we have been an "official" partner right from day one. Kudos for knowing we are the biggest, though.

So pricing is something we have the ability to do a little better than most given our scale. In business, bringing a better price is as much a part of the whole product as the bundle, box and banners. We use this as a marketing tool. It's the same as some manufacturers using extremely long warranties as a marketing tool.

One of the aspects of this MAP thing is that it makes it more difficult for Palit to deploy a marketing strategy. What if NV had decided to clean things up in the warranty part of the game? How good for the consumer would it be if NV required all manufacturers to NOT exceed a 3-year warranty?

The answer is that not all people are interested in a ridiculously long warranty, but some are. That means that some people would get short changed and others wouldn't.

So I'm not really trying to comment on whether this is good or not good for consumers but I think it's a good idea to present this from a manufacturer's point of view. I see lots of consumer feedback in here but I would love to see some other manufacturers post in here as a sort of bi-partisan feedback. NV should be here as well.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's all good, but I gotta ask, where did the frog come from ?
 
MAP policies are everywhere. Why is everyone freaking that it has made it to the computer industry now?

I sell aftermarket automotive parts and all of the major manufacturers have MAP policies. Nothing new, just a way to level the playing the field and for the manufacturer to make sure their product does not get devalued by people selling it for next to nothing.
 
Time2Kill said:
MAP policies are everywhere. Why is everyone freaking that it has made it to the computer industry now?

I sell aftermarket automotive parts and all of the major manufacturers have MAP policies. Nothing new, just a way to level the playing the field and for the manufacturer to make sure their product does not get devalued by people selling it for next to nothing.
Click to expand...

Hmm let me see.
I find it hard to get competitive pricing on car parts, they all seem to be around the same price unless buying aftermarket or from ebay.
What was the question?
 
It's not a pretty picture, but NVIDIA need to filter out the price whores from their customer base.

There is such a thing as a bad customer, and the customer is NOT always right.... especially when you're a company like NVIDIA.

All of you who have bought a video card solely based on price might want to take note (myself included) - buying solely on price brings this kind of behavior by companies. This Walmart mentality, and that's EXACTLY what it is, only serves to commoditize whatever it is you're buying and force the manufacturer to make rash decisions. This is especially true of parts that really aren't commodities, like video cards.

I sell Property and Casualty Insurance and I've seen this kind of shit happening to Auto Insurance Companies. Everyone assumes that the Auto Insurance they buy is the same product that the guy down the street is selling, when it absolutely 100% is not. No one ever thinks about what they're buying and assumes it's good all the way up until something goes wrong. When Gayco (Ge*co) gets fixes your car and it comes back with leaky headlights, run marks in the painted areas and body panels that aren't lined up correctly; will you think you got such a great deal on your car insurance then? nope!

The same can be said for video cards. You real price whores out there, when your Chinese slave labor made video card turns up and looks to be produced on a Graham Cracker PCB, what will you say then?

Or will you just say nothing and go make S'mores? mmmmm.... S'mores......
 
pillagenburn said:
It's not a pretty picture, but NVIDIA need to filter out the price whores from their customer base.

There is such a thing as a bad customer, and the customer is NOT always right.... especially when you're a company like NVIDIA.

All of you who have bought a video card solely based on price might want to take note (myself included) - buying solely on price brings this kind of behavior by companies. This Walmart mentality, and that's EXACTLY what it is, only serves to commoditize whatever it is you're buying and force the manufacturer to make rash decisions. This is especially true of parts that really aren't commodities, like video cards.

I sell Property and Casualty Insurance and I've seen this kind of shit happening to Auto Insurance Companies. Everyone assumes that the Auto Insurance they buy is the same product that the guy down the street is selling, when it absolutely 100% is not. No one ever thinks about what they're buying and assumes it's good all the way up until something goes wrong. When Gayco (Ge*co) gets fixes your car and it comes back with leaky headlights, run marks in the painted areas and body panels that aren't lined up correctly; will you think you got such a great deal on your car insurance then? nope!

The same can be said for video cards. You real price whores out there, when your Chinese slave labor made video card turns up and looks to be produced on a Graham Cracker PCB, what will you say then?

Or will you just say nothing and go make S'mores? mmmmm.... S'mores......
Click to expand...

NVidia are preventing us from searching online for the better price deals.
We dont want that to happen and are expressing our annoyance.
Whats that got to do with bad customers?

Why they are doing it isnt my concern and I dont think your argument stands either.
Once the card has gone to retailer, NVidia have been paid.
Why should it matter to them what its sold for after.

If you are talking about some brands of cards being rubbish, I'm not seeing that, the failure rate is pretty static across the board with slightly more returns for highly overclocked cards.
If its after sales service, you have made 1 good point but you didnt stress it that way.
However since I usually void my warranty within a few hours to a few weeks, its not one of my concerns.

You have taken a too simplistic approach, nobody buys just on price.
I (and everyone i know) choose the card I want given that it will have the performance I need a around the price point I can afford, this is my primary criteria.
I then search for the best price.
I buy only from trustworthy retailers and will pay more for that security.
Its not all about price, performance and the supplier are just as important.

If I find it hard to buy NVidia products there is another player in the field I can buy from and NVidia shouldnt be so arrogant as to ignore this point.
 
@Nenu and Pillagenburn

I think by customers P is refering to NV's customers meaning VGA manufacturers not consumers.

As far as commoditizing a product, the consumer VGA market is actually very price sensitive. The first thing you look at when it's time to buy a card is the uber high-end stuff. Then when you see how much it costs, you stop to think about how much you have to spend and find a card that fits that range. Then you start looking at places to buy that card to see who has the cheapest price.

It isn't until this point that you start weighing pros and cons about brand and where to buy.

Video card purchases typically have a pretty high attach rate meaning the people that buy them usually buy something else as well. So when you look at the purchase of an individual, a $10 price difference MAY mean the difference between adding a 500GB drive instead of a 250GB.

Yes- these are the typical behaviors of most consumers that buy cards. We get the sales data from various different etailers. If you consider manufacturers sell between 50,000 and 150,000 cards per month via etailers (I'm just shooting you a lowball number here so I don't get in trouble) a statistical variant of 1% could add up to 1,500 or more. That's a lot of video cards. If the average selling price of a video card is $100 you're looking at $150k or more.

I can also tell you that when one card is priced $10 lower than all the others, the sales definitely go up on that card and go down on other brands.

When a video card is purchased alone, price appears to be less of an issue. But that's the thing, usually video cards are sold with another piece of hardware.
 
I don't understand what nVidia are up to. The 8800GT sold extremely well and they made huge profits and everyone was happy. Now they make a video card no one is going to buy and just do stupid things like this. I'm predicting a huge fall in profits from last fiscal year.
 
Triple B said:
ONLY YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAGGLE. You just click a button.
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If by a button you mean the same button 13 or 22 times, I would agree. And that's how many times you would have to click the see price in cart button on Newegg alone if you wanted to compare the prices on 9600GTs and 8800GTs only. Do that across a couple other sites and it begins to add up to a legitimate headache.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world or anything, but it seems to be a common theme in this thread that people don't want to click that many times. And not even all the cards even have that button so if everyone got on board with this it would be even worse.
 
Umm I see the hole for this. If I was Neweggs Webmaster. I'll create a script that allows me to use checkboxes to mark those cards I want to see. After that you hit one button and Voila, you get all the prices listed as before.
 
This is why I rather buy ATI than Nvidia.

I don't see ATI/AMD using strong-arm business tactics, suspicions of monopolistic activities, or indiscernible product lines like Nvidia and possibly Intel.

I have been using AMD/ATI products for several years now; moreso than Intel/Nvidia.

My last computer was an AMD 2600+ XP CPU with an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro. I have had absolutely no problems with it. It wasn't the greatest be-all, end-it-all products, but it served its purpose well and performed well for my needs.

On top of all that, AMD/ATI were considerably cheaper than the duo of Intel/Nvidia. Also, ATI has made it a habit to release monthly driver updates so that if an issue came up in one month, it would be fixed in the next month or two or sooner.

I currently have an AMD 5000+ X2 CPU Black Edition and an ATI Radeon 3870. I am anxiously waiting on the 4870 to be released before I make any decision on replacing my current card. That and may consider getting a Phenom, but will wait on the third revision of the chip.

However, I'm pretty content with AMD/ATI and probably will for the foreseeable future.

Reading about this just made me dislike Nvidia even more regardless how much better and faster they are compared to ATI. At least ATI is smart in their new direction for their GPUs-- small GPUs, lesser power consumption with very good performance. This compared to the larger is better attitude at Nvidia.

Thank you, AMD/ATI.
 
This appears to be market fixing and its illegal, how many "DRAM" companies have tried to 'protect' their price points and got sued.

For many reason I hate NVidia, I only own them because ATI can't pull their head out of their butt. I hope with AMD behind them, they can making things a bit faster!!

But if this sticks as legal, I'll buy ATI and as many cards as I need just to spite NVidia and their over inflated ego!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Ron
 
Nenu said:
NVidia are preventing us from searching online for the better price deals.
We dont want that to happen and are expressing our annoyance.
Whats that got to do with bad customers?

Why they are doing it isnt my concern and I dont think your argument stands either.
Once the card has gone to retailer, NVidia have been paid.
Why should it matter to them what its sold for after.

If you are talking about some brands of cards being rubbish, I'm not seeing that, the failure rate is pretty static across the board with slightly more returns for highly overclocked cards.
If its after sales service, you have made 1 good point but you didnt stress it that way.
However since I usually void my warranty within a few hours to a few weeks, its not one of my concerns.

You have taken a too simplistic approach, nobody buys just on price.
I (and everyone i know) choose the card I want given that it will have the performance I need a around the price point I can afford, this is my primary criteria.
I then search for the best price.
I buy only from trustworthy retailers and will pay more for that security.
Its not all about price, performance and the supplier are just as important.

If I find it hard to buy NVidia products there is another player in the field I can buy from and NVidia shouldnt be so arrogant as to ignore this point.
Click to expand...

LOL, of course people buy purely on price. When everything is viewed as the same product, what else is there to differentiate? OK, maybe a few games or different cooler or whatever - but there is a segment (probably very big) that purely buys based on price alone. Business is just that simple. If I'm looking for an 8800gt and the only difference is the sticker on the cooling fan and the game bundle, I'm likely going to go for the lower priced card unless i REALLY want the game(s) - and usually i don't.
 
"Price Fixing" would be if Nvidia and AMD/ATI got together in a smoke filled backroom and decided to collaborate on raising both of their profit margins by raising prices across the board instead of competing against each other.

This has nothing to do with illegal price fixing.
 
Let me see if I have got this straight:
nVidia says "This is good for the Consumer".
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA.....

Explain just how this does not result in higher prices.

If I were buying a card today, I would lean towards ATI solely because of this misguided nVidia policy and it's stupid implementation.
 
Seems the whole question of whether this is price fixing,price tampering,or whatever,is something you'd need a lawyer to figure out.But since I've never trusted lawyers,it's a mute point.:D The interesting thing about all this is the anti-Nvidia sentiment which seems to be growing,and frankly,I think Nvidia can only blame themselves.They created this mess by putting out a flood of rehashed,renamed versions of the same cards that weren't any real improvement over the ancient 8800GTX.They alienated customers with motherboards plagued with problems,while refusing to allow SLI on far superior Intel boards.And their antics in the ongoing feud with Intel hardly inspires confidence.This whole UMP thing may not be as big an issue as people think,but it may be one straw closer to breaking the camel's back for frustrated consumers.
 
turbominnow said:
So is [H] going to include MAP policies of all companies in their reviews? Considering it is such a pivotal issue in consumer electronics..... ;)
Click to expand...

We did our checking and could not find any official policy in effect for AMD's graphics partners.
 
Maybe I'm the only one not bothered by this... But I'm kinda used to it. I come from many years in the musical instrument industry where this has been commonplace for about 15-20 years, now. It's because of the big-box places like Guitar Center and Sam Ash undercutting the smaller mom and pop shops and driving them out of business that this practice has been enforced.

I see the good and bad of it... Yeah, it's a pain in the ass having to click somewhere to get the price... But do we really shop around all that much anymore anyway? And worse comes to worse, people are going to be clicking on these things and not buying them but will go on a forum and say "Hey, guys!!! When I clicked on the link it came up with this price!" So... We search forums, now... Oh, wait. We already do that.
 
Nenu said:
Absolutely!
I have so many more and better toys because of it too :D
Click to expand...

I guess my point was more that my searches seem to always lead to the same few retailers regardless of how deeply I search, and if those few retailers are more expensive, it's usually only by a few dollars and their customer service is worth that few dollars.
 
turbominnow said:
I couldn't think of a more inept group to manage the actions of private business than the government.

Second, ... Directing purchases based on company policy rather than price/performance moves one from a enthusiast to a patsy for a political movement.
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I agree that government isn't the answer (look how well they've done with welfare, social security, medicare, and medicaid. And people want to put the government in charge of healthcare!?)--I'll retract my earlier statement about "it should be illegal". However, I believe that such a practice ought to be public and open. The free market will take care of the rest. For some people, this policy doesn't mean jack, so they will buy based on price, features, drivers, performance, etc. For other people, a company's "citizenship" is a factor in their purchase, and there's a dollar amount that can be attached to that. Considering the response in this thread, it appears that many people are willing to take their business elsewhere (at some potential cost to themselves) in order to discourage nVidia from enforcing a UMAP.
DualCpuUser said:
This appears to be market fixing and its illegal, how many "DRAM" companies have tried to 'protect' their price points and got sued.
Click to expand...
It's not price fixing, for two reasons--1) they're not directly controlling the selling price, and 2) they don't have a monopoly. You could argue that they are effectively controlling the selling price, since there's little reason to sell a card for less than UMAP if you can't tell anyone about it, but there's no way you can argue that they have a monopoly.
 
Nvidia's excuse about making sure customers understand their "product stack" with this invisible pricing is weak at best.

I didnt read all 8 pages of the thread, but I hope someone mentioned that merely displaying MSRP above the retailers price (like newegg already does IIRC) accomplishes exactly the same thing!
 
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