Wait, so you'd but a second 8800GT just to run the second monitor with TS, Firefox and WinAMP? What's the logic in that-- Aero can use any other nVidia card that uses the same WDDM driver for a second display, and if you're not using it for gaming, why not just an FX5700 or 6600LE card? If you're thinking of SLI for the 8800s, you're stuck-- SLI disables the second monitor, and breaks the ability to add a third PCIe or PCI nVidia card, while Vista turns off Aero and falls back to old drivers if you're not using the same WDDM driver. This is the exact fight I am in; I bought a pair of 7900GS cards and a PCI FX5500 before I knew of the limitation with SLI... I put in a Matrox P650 for my second monitor, and now can't get them both to work on Vista.
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ATI Radeon HD 3800 Series @ [H]
- Thread starter Brent_Justice
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Wait, so you'd but a second 8800GT just to run the second monitor with TS, Firefox and WinAMP? What's the logic in that-- Aero can use any other nVidia card that uses the same WDDM driver for a second display, and if you're not using it for gaming, why not just an FX5700 or 6600LE card? If you're thinking of SLI for the 8800s, you're stuck-- SLI disables the second monitor, and breaks the ability to add a third PCIe or PCI nVidia card, while Vista turns off Aero and falls back to old drivers if you're not using the same WDDM driver. This is the exact fight I am in; I bought a pair of 7900GS cards and a PCI FX5500 before I knew of the limitation with SLI... I put in a Matrox P650 for my second monitor, and now can't get them both to work on Vista.
Brent_Justice
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The 3870 was quiet.
We used drivers provided directly from ATI to use for testing the 3800 series, they are Cat 7.10 with the INFs built in to support these cards.
Widescreen resolution testing at 1920x1200 and 2560 was included in the text in a few games where it was applicable.
Yes
Hasn't changed from the 2900 XT
Again, this was mentioned in the review
We didn't do any perf after OC testing this time, just didn't have the time for it, perhaps with retail cards we will include this.
Cheaper and faster does mean better value, the 3850 is certainly a homerun for ATI compared to the competition.
Perhaps after thanksgiving
There are some very exciting things on the graphics front AMD has in store for next year, my advice is to keep watching, don't count AMD's ATI grpahics department out just yet.
The conclusion pretty much sums it up, it is a non-issue for gamers.
Correct, 3870 is just slightly faster than 2900 XT. The GTS is more expensive than a GT right now and the GT is faster.
thanks for the review! This was exactly the type of card I was hopeing for. I already bought mine from the egg! diamond 3850
Indeed 3850 looks quite attractive for the price... its $335 over here in New Zealand oppose to $500 for a GT.
However, I think the 8800GT 256mb might give AMD another run for their money. I'm gonna wait for that to be sure.
Yes, I'd consider using an 8800GT/256 to run that second display. That makes as much sense to me as buying anything else. To my understanding the price point for that card was supposed to be in the $180 range, and it should definitely outperform the HD3850, just like the GT/512 outperforms the HD3870. Besides, If I have two cards from the same series then I should be less likely to have issues with the WDDM driver's performance. Consistency is a good thing, even though your logic might lead you to believe otherwise. And you'll notice that my motherboard is an X38 chipset board, so I have PCIe 2.0, and would want both of the cards in that system to be PCIe 2.0. It just won't be as "cheap" as you might like it to be!
Look at any of the DX10 evals done on this site. The 320mb 8800GTS runs at half the performance of the 640mb version under DX10 even down to 1280x1024. I wouldn't expect a 256mb 8800GT to be playable at any resolution.
you may not mind spending over $200 on a card that can play DX10 only at 800x600, but I'd want a bit more for my money.
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM5OSwzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
I think it is a reasonable guess that a 256mb card would be even worse, and therefore pretty much useless under DX10.
Oh, and I ment CS:S not 1.6. My bad..
MrLonghair
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The problem is that that affordable GT is 256, and one of the HD3850 models. You can already run into performance bottlenecks with less than 512 megs in two three games, and I like to stick with my equipment until it starts to die from old age (July I upgraded from a AXP2400+ & 9800Pro 128) and I doubt <512 would be acceptable in like, 2009.
Can some of you "ATI has crap software" folks come up with any arguments proving your point? It takes nine seconds to load and another second to mouse-over, that's about it..
Can some of you "ATI has crap software" folks come up with any arguments proving your point? It takes nine seconds to load and another second to mouse-over, that's about it..
Brent: What brand of the HD3870 would you recommend from personal experience with those companies? I've only owned Built By ATI (for both my radeon 9000 & 9800 pro), and eVGA for my 7800GT. On nVIDIA's side, there's XFX, BFG and eVGA, all of which are solid choices, but which companies are comparable on ATi's camp?
The 3850 does look like a great card for the money, but people expected that it would at least keep up with the 8800GTS320 not beat the 8600GTS, so the reason its so cheap its just because it can't compete performance wise. Nvidia exceeded everyones expectations with the 8800GT we should at the very least expect the same from ATI.
snowysnowcones
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One thing that I really love about these cards is that they both still come with the black box! A great chance for those (like me) who haven't played the newest steam games!
Stereophile
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I want to see 4 of them running together.
snaggletooth
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i dislike nvidia's new control panel more than the CCC, no reason really. it works fine. as well, i haven't come across a reason to really dislike CCC, though i like the driver+regular control panel option much better. just seems smaller.
i don't know where all the hate for ati/nvidia drivers come from, aside from specific technical issues someone might have... like... enabling flat-panel scaling. many have trouble with that using both ati and nvidia.
Manny Calavera
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At the 400$ ++ price points as well ? For those of us that want all out GTX/Ultra performance (without going SLI/CF-X) ?
which ones come with the black box?
Yes.
Manny Calavera
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So then next summer/fall we should be seeing a '9800' GTX/ULTRA level card in the 450 to 600 dollar price range,from AMD/ati ??? with say,oh,800 million to 1+ billion tansistors ?
Very cool indeed.
I do do not want to wait until Larabee to see the G100 releasedBring on R700,and get Nvidia off thier collective butts.Dont wait for Intel to do it !
Commander Suzdal
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The Saphhire 3870 is back in stock at Newegg for those who want one, and all of the 3850s.
Finally- I wanted the 3750 and finally got it.
The price gouging on the 8800gt was to much for me plus where are they@249???
I saw the graphs. The 3870's not that far behind the 8800GT. Besides All I want is 60 FPS on my 22" LCD @ 1680x1050.
Basically I play the Vavle games and Unreal Tournament 2004 and 3.
Crysis seems to me to be coded badly. I did like the turtle on the beach reminds me of a benchmark where I saw 15FPS?? Long ago.
I shot the turtle.
I also saw 2 pictures side by side of crysis and on the left side is a beach. I could clearly see rocks and such, pebbles actually, on the ATI card but not on the 8800GT. Seems like cheating to me. And they stated they used the newer non cheated driver for Nvidia.
I voted with my money, thanks Newegg.
The price gouging on the 8800gt was to much for me plus where are they@249???
I saw the graphs. The 3870's not that far behind the 8800GT. Besides All I want is 60 FPS on my 22" LCD @ 1680x1050.
Basically I play the Vavle games and Unreal Tournament 2004 and 3.
Crysis seems to me to be coded badly. I did like the turtle on the beach reminds me of a benchmark where I saw 15FPS?? Long ago.
I shot the turtle.
I also saw 2 pictures side by side of crysis and on the left side is a beach. I could clearly see rocks and such, pebbles actually, on the ATI card but not on the 8800GT. Seems like cheating to me. And they stated they used the newer non cheated driver for Nvidia.
I voted with my money, thanks Newegg.
I thought we had some Nvidia fanboys already bashing the card. I took a second look at the review and...
The 3870 had Post Processing running on 'High' while the 8800GT had it running at medium. The rest of the other settings were the same.
At first I saw the FPS results for the 3870 were better than the 8800GT.
But then I saw that the resolutions were completely different. The 3870 was running 1280x1024, the 8800gt was running at 1600x1200
Why do you do this? Soo Misleading!
The 3870 had Post Processing running on 'High' while the 8800GT had it running at medium. The rest of the other settings were the same.
At first I saw the FPS results for the 3870 were better than the 8800GT.
But then I saw that the resolutions were completely different. The 3870 was running 1280x1024, the 8800gt was running at 1600x1200
Why do you do this? Soo Misleading!
snowysnowcones
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I believe the HIS cards do. They have the Half life/Valve logo on the box, and the hardware canucks review shows the bundle coming with the black box. Not too sure about other brands though.
Exactly... as long as you are aware of the limitations of the potential configurations, your budget may be different than mine. More power to you. I just didn't want you to waste a perfectly good gaming card to run an aux display, which at my budget, it would be a waste.
/I paid $14.99 (no rebate) for the x600SE.
Yeah, it is funny, ATI finally found something they could beat with their 320 shader monster; an 8600GTS. Yipee.
PhantomFelix
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snowysnowcones
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ah, my bad for thinkin it was the black box I guess I should read more
I guess I should read more When you review video cards, you have a lot of data. Understand? All HardOCP does is change the reference point of the data. You still draw your own conclusions, just differently. If this still baffles you, then.... I dunno.
Not surprising when [H] leaves out the very important "Apples to Apples" section. It's OK to include the "best playable settings" but, I think most people want to see a more traditional benchmark where the performance difference is more simply and clearly illustrated by a raw FPS number and say A is x% faster than B for this game and vice versa.
Also, a lot of us would like to see performance at various resolutions & AA. For any video card I see I want to know how high can I set the AA when I'm running at 1680 x 1050, any other resolutions are irrelevant to me as that's my resolution. Somebody else with a flat panel running at 1280x1024 would want to see, say, if they can run at 4x or 8x AA at their resolution, probably hoping that the extra AA can compensate for the slightly lower resolution they're running at.
It would also be nice to see some older games, to see if we can finally run them smoothly at 8xAA + 16xAS at native resolutions.
edit: Oh, abd BTW, it's nice to see some lower priced cards being reviewd here again, MOST people, including game players, can't/won't buy a $300 video card, particularly not a new $300 card with each new refresh in technology.
Would I be right to guess that 90% of video card sales comes from cards under $300? What percentage from under $200?
WHere I said that I wouldn't have called it a "home run" ~ well, I should clarify, in the segment which actually is the meat & potatoes of the video card market (low/mid range) it looks like ATi IS trouncing Nvidia, the 8500/8600 series has simply been shit (relatively), to put it bluntly. The 6600GT and 7600GT were much better cards (for their time).
Sure we could find those at other websites, but since we're going to read the [H] review anyway, may as well see it here.
I noticed that they have been including the "apples to apples" sometimes, let's hope they start including it all the time...
Great review. Thanks HardOCP!
On the pricepoint issue. The 8800GT's are starting to creep into stock in a couple days, a new wave of them will be arriving (Friday I think). If you use Froogle.com and search for the 8800GT you can find many respectable (but less well known than newegg and clubIT) sites that sell the 8800GT for $230...roughly $10-20 more than the 3870. Just cause everyone flocks to newegg at the moment doesn't mean [H]ardies need to. We're smarter than that right?
By the way after tax, my MSI 8800GT OC came to $254 shipped, that was 8.25% sales tax on there and 2 day air shipping ($13). Sweet deal. I was told it will arrive Nov. 20th.
Thanks for that news, I've really been itching to pickup an 8800GT for under $250, can't wait!
From a silent perspective, the 3870 is the perfect card for a couple of years.
also, everyone talks about 0 AA or 4x AA.
if you are running a high class monitor at 1920x1200, the difference of 2x vs 4x in a game with motion is almost nothing (sometimes is) AF pumped does a lot more at that resolution. I wish they would just show 2x aa and higher af's which gives less of a performance hit and still show the same visuals.
the superior ability for bluray content playback and HD decoding in general makes the 3800 series a lot nicer looking for people like me with 26" IPS monitors watching movies.
also, everyone talks about 0 AA or 4x AA.
if you are running a high class monitor at 1920x1200, the difference of 2x vs 4x in a game with motion is almost nothing (sometimes is) AF pumped does a lot more at that resolution. I wish they would just show 2x aa and higher af's which gives less of a performance hit and still show the same visuals.
the superior ability for bluray content playback and HD decoding in general makes the 3800 series a lot nicer looking for people like me with 26" IPS monitors watching movies.
The 8800gt has video decoding as well.
Nice review [H] :thumb up:
Wow, all they really did was shrink the 2900XT's die and call it a value, I'm glad I waited. Hard to believe they kept all of the shaders and streaming units intact, the 3800's have all the features of the previous flagship product for half of the price and half of the power demand, plus working UVD, finally. Too bad it doesn't beat the 8800GT but I can't find one for sale and anyways the 3870 comes close enough. It'll still be one hell of an upgrade from a X1950 XT.
Wow, all they really did was shrink the 2900XT's die and call it a value, I'm glad I waited. Hard to believe they kept all of the shaders and streaming units intact, the 3800's have all the features of the previous flagship product for half of the price and half of the power demand, plus working UVD, finally. Too bad it doesn't beat the 8800GT but I can't find one for sale and anyways the 3870 comes close enough. It'll still be one hell of an upgrade from a X1950 XT.
MrWizard6600
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looks like ATI has, at worst, a comparable showing, and at best, a very strong showing this time round!
and I'm certainly intrested to see how well one of these performs in crossfire! bring on the crossfire artical!
one thing I would've like to have seen was a whole page dedicated to weather or not ATI manged to get their ROPs working properly (ie, can it perform AA with any reasonable performance hit?)
and I'm certainly intrested to see how well one of these performs in crossfire! bring on the crossfire artical!
one thing I would've like to have seen was a whole page dedicated to weather or not ATI manged to get their ROPs working properly (ie, can it perform AA with any reasonable performance hit?)
One, the point of this whole shebang is what? That the 3800 series of ati's gpu is similar to what?" a 7900gt? try again ATI, I want to see 1280x1024 at the highest possible settings and 60+fps. Anything less is unacceptable for any card, Period!!!! I don't give a crap about 1600+ resolution, no one uses that resolution. If you say you do, your FOFS!!!! I would rather see a reasonable res like 1024x768 apples to apples. Oranges and grape fruits have no bearing here. The fact is 8800gt is the best for your money!!! I could give a crap about some kid playing at half res and no perks. The point is that game developers are falling behind on the job of making games and the "Hard!!!" can't keep up either.
The bottom line is that the Price vs Performance ratio favors Nvidia not ATI right now!!! the 8800gt is still the card to have unless you expect inferior performance. End of discussion. As any one can plainly see, you have sold out Hard, Or should I say Limp? I am disappointed. ATI can't hang and you can't admit it!
How much?.. Don't even pretend like you didn't make money for this review. You make money on everything, or you wouldn't be in the business that any ten year old can do!! Play games on computers that you didn't pay a lick for, and tout the half assed attempt of every single card maker on the planet and every single game ever made. FOR FUCKS SAKES put out something I can relate too!!!! I have a 7900gt and I feel like last years card wasn't fast enough to play games at the settings intended. Do you actually think you will beat any one who has a higher frame rate than you? I've got news, You won't!!! 60 fps minimum or the game and the card are shit. 30 fps is something I wouldn't have stood for in 1995. I have been playing at 100 fps since quake3. Get real soon or your gonna make your dedicated audience turn to Annand for anything important. I'm tired of this Bullshit!!! Anything less than 60fps is useless to an online gamer and you know it! If a card isn't as fast as my monitors refresh rate then it's CRAP!!! I don't care how new it is, If the Game Dev's don't even know how fast it plays HOW DO YOU? So why lie?!!!! Right now ATI is second rate and so is Nvidia. I have been waiting for years for them(ATI/Nvidia) to make something worth my money, and they won't because our standards are too low!!! As much as you'd wouldn't like to admit it they are!! At a minimum FPS should be 60 with all settings maxed. If not, then your not ready for a higher Resolution. Less than 60 fps is Shit! I don't care how much money your have invested or how much you spent on research and development, 60 FPS is the standard for decent gameplay. Fuck your slide show loving asses!!!!
The bottom line is that the Price vs Performance ratio favors Nvidia not ATI right now!!! the 8800gt is still the card to have unless you expect inferior performance. End of discussion. As any one can plainly see, you have sold out Hard, Or should I say Limp? I am disappointed. ATI can't hang and you can't admit it!
How much?.. Don't even pretend like you didn't make money for this review. You make money on everything, or you wouldn't be in the business that any ten year old can do!! Play games on computers that you didn't pay a lick for, and tout the half assed attempt of every single card maker on the planet and every single game ever made. FOR FUCKS SAKES put out something I can relate too!!!! I have a 7900gt and I feel like last years card wasn't fast enough to play games at the settings intended. Do you actually think you will beat any one who has a higher frame rate than you? I've got news, You won't!!! 60 fps minimum or the game and the card are shit. 30 fps is something I wouldn't have stood for in 1995. I have been playing at 100 fps since quake3. Get real soon or your gonna make your dedicated audience turn to Annand for anything important. I'm tired of this Bullshit!!! Anything less than 60fps is useless to an online gamer and you know it! If a card isn't as fast as my monitors refresh rate then it's CRAP!!! I don't care how new it is, If the Game Dev's don't even know how fast it plays HOW DO YOU? So why lie?!!!! Right now ATI is second rate and so is Nvidia. I have been waiting for years for them(ATI/Nvidia) to make something worth my money, and they won't because our standards are too low!!! As much as you'd wouldn't like to admit it they are!! At a minimum FPS should be 60 with all settings maxed. If not, then your not ready for a higher Resolution. Less than 60 fps is Shit! I don't care how much money your have invested or how much you spent on research and development, 60 FPS is the standard for decent gameplay. Fuck your slide show loving asses!!!!
somebody's got a chip on their shoulder the size of everest. accusing [H] of taking money for an ati review? wow, just 5 months ago some other troll accused [H] of being in nvidia's pocket after the 2900xt launch fallout. i guess you really can't please them all.
Did he say TAKE? No he said MAKE, there is a differece.
I do think he should delete his post and re-phrase it a bit more courteously.
I didn't mention it, but I also don't like to see the game dip below 60 FPS if I'm playing online and 90% of the time I'm playing a game it's multi-player. Since a lot of people are running flat panel monitors these days they won't be able to SEE more than 60 FPS because that's the refresh rate.
MrLonghair
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1) The guy who needs a heavy dose of meds has a point, sort of. In that we want as high FPS as possible. Stuff like online action I'll run at the lowest settings unless going higher gives me an advantage, so Crysis is mostly real low, UT3 looks like lego. Everything else he said? Uurgh..
2) Here's a guy on the forums who bet his left nut that nothing higher than a 2600 would be 55nm before they were done with the HD2X00 series: http://home.vasteras2.net/mrlonghair/toxxclause.jpg . Off that nut now!
3) I see that Sapphire has a heatpipe silent 3850 512 model, seems a tiny bit cheaper than other 3850 512 models, and since yesterday the prices of 3870s fell by approx 30 euro in the store I'm checking out. I should just place an order right now. Swedish site: http://www.datorbutiken.com/se/Navigation/ListingFrame.aspx?CatId=9016392
2) Here's a guy on the forums who bet his left nut that nothing higher than a 2600 would be 55nm before they were done with the HD2X00 series: http://home.vasteras2.net/mrlonghair/toxxclause.jpg . Off that nut now!
3) I see that Sapphire has a heatpipe silent 3850 512 model, seems a tiny bit cheaper than other 3850 512 models, and since yesterday the prices of 3870s fell by approx 30 euro in the store I'm checking out. I should just place an order right now. Swedish site: http://www.datorbutiken.com/se/Navigation/ListingFrame.aspx?CatId=9016392