HardOCP News
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Im not saying anything bad about Shell using biometrics at the pump
all Im saying is that the first time someone shows up with a finger that doesnt belong to them, theres gonna be a problem.
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Shell Station Customers 'Pay by Touch'
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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lol thats cool.
But this paying method has been around for a couple years. Our local grocery stores have credit/debit card machines with a finger press area for biometric scans.
What I'm never sure about is whether it's for identification purpose or a payment method. I never got around asking.
But this paying method has been around for a couple years. Our local grocery stores have credit/debit card machines with a finger press area for biometric scans.
What I'm never sure about is whether it's for identification purpose or a payment method. I never got around asking.
I don't want Shell gas stations to have my fingerprints on file. I can forgive the government, but even that is only required under certain circumstances (jobs working with children, IIRC). While I understand that it's optional, it definitely paves the way: where are all the activists screaming about their privacy? 
Besides: with all the unscrupulous companies that buy/sell lists of customer information, what happens if Shell sells my fingerprint? Or better yet, what if it gets stolen?
Besides: with all the unscrupulous companies that buy/sell lists of customer information, what happens if Shell sells my fingerprint? Or better yet, what if it gets stolen?
They don't get your fingerprint any more than they get your PIN number when you enter it in a shop (Assuming Chip and Pin actually made it to the US at some point ).
They are mooting using retina scans here in the UK for a similar purpose, sounds a bit Minority Report to me
Incidentally dead fingers was solved a few years ago as well, most new finger print scanners have sensors to recognise signs of life in the finger. At the basic level heat (you can chuck the finger in a hot bath to get them up to temperature) or the more advanced ones have pulse sensors in the same way as the grips on exercise machines.
). They are mooting using retina scans here in the UK for a similar purpose, sounds a bit Minority Report to me
Incidentally dead fingers was solved a few years ago as well, most new finger print scanners have sensors to recognise signs of life in the finger. At the basic level heat (you can chuck the finger in a hot bath to get them up to temperature) or the more advanced ones have pulse sensors in the same way as the grips on exercise machines.
This is pretty cool, but I would like to see them setup a special Shell account for authroized users and then use the fingerprinting unit at the pump. So anyone who has the account and an authenticated print, can pump gass, preventing this from running onto your other financial accounts.
Umm... if you even used a gas pump or as much as went into the station, they will have your fingerprint. To "lift" ones fingerprint is super easy, all you need is some scotch tape and super glue.
I'd be more worried about the germs than I would of someone having my fingerprint on file.
Also, for the stolen fingers comments, most new fingerprint readers actually checks for temperature and other life metrics... so the person has to be alive in order to get a proper read. You might just as well steal their credit card, it's much easier and less dangerous.
I don't want Shell gas stations to have my fingerprints on file. I can forgive the government, but even that is only required under certain circumstances (jobs working with children, IIRC). While I understand that it's optional, it definitely paves the way: where are all the activists screaming about their privacy?
Besides: with all the unscrupulous companies that buy/sell lists of customer information, what happens if Shell sells my fingerprint? Or better yet, what if it gets stolen?
Umm... if you even used a gas pump or as much as went into the station, they will have your fingerprint. To "lift" ones fingerprint is super easy, all you need is some scotch tape and super glue.
I'd be more worried about the germs than I would of someone having my fingerprint on file.
Also, for the stolen fingers comments, most new fingerprint readers actually checks for temperature and other life metrics... so the person has to be alive in order to get a proper read. You might just as well steal their credit card, it's much easier and less dangerous.
Yes, but they have to get there before someone else uses the machine. And they still have to have the rest of my info, in order to link the print to my name, address, SSN, etc. Here, Shell's servers already HAVE my fingerprint attached to my account.
That's not a new problem, you already deal with germs every time you press the button, or pick up the pen to sign your signature, or open a door. How is a scanner any different in this regard?
LOL
there is NO WAY i'm putting a device like that in MY body. No freaking way.
This is just a sign of the times
Renegade_Azzy
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2004
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- 326
Sheep will give up anything for what makes them work less... their identity, their body.. eventually you and me.
how about we just not be so lazy as a society and just WALK INTO THE STORE.
We give sheep devices like this out and then we complain everyone is getting fatter
Oh the irony
Team Obi Juan
Your Local Postmaster
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And here i thought touching the buttons + pump was a germ fest! Now finger over finger over finger?!
I hate public shit!!!
Good to know that they are spending the sums of money that they are pillaging from all of us in the right places... After all, if you live far enough inland, global warming will eventually give you beach front property, and alternative fuels are just a fad, like "New Coke." What I really want is a finger ID to pay my gas... well, I've got a finger for you...
Different departments do different jobs. Chill.
Does the current pump handle have some sort of magic anti-germ properties? How about the Yes/No buttons you press when it asks if you want a receipt? Or the numeric keypad some pumps use to have you type in your billing zip code?And here i thought touching the buttons + pump was a germ fest! Now finger over finger over finger?!
Am I the only who likes the idea of Biometrics, but thinks it's a really, really bad idea to base the scanners on body parts that can be cut off?
The first thing people usually say when I express my fears is : "Ah, but they'll have life-sensors, so it won't work if the finger/eye isn't attached to you any more" to which I invariably reply : "Great, I hope that the totally wired, batshit-crazy, crack-head/tweaker with the pliers who's jacking your car has a good grasp of the technology".
Voice biometrics ftw.
The first thing people usually say when I express my fears is : "Ah, but they'll have life-sensors, so it won't work if the finger/eye isn't attached to you any more" to which I invariably reply : "Great, I hope that the totally wired, batshit-crazy, crack-head/tweaker with the pliers who's jacking your car has a good grasp of the technology".
Voice biometrics ftw.
Am I the only who likes the idea of Biometrics, but thinks it's a really, really bad idea to base the scanners on body parts that can be cut off?
The first thing people usually say when I express my fears is : "Ah, but they'll have life-sensors, so it won't work if the finger/eye isn't attached to you any more" to which I invariably reply : "Great, I hope that the totally wired, batshit-crazy, crack-head/tweaker with the pliers who's jacking your car has a good grasp of the technology".
Voice biometrics ftw.
Your chance of getting your fingers cut off is like... very very very very super very very slim.
I think you're being just a little paranoid
Besides, you can still use your debit/credit card and cash if you do have the bad luck of cutting them off.
IshouldntmentionthatIveamputatedmythumbbackin1996despitetheodds.. but I did get it sewn back on
Microsurgury ftw.lol, you do know that you are not forced to do this? Let us have our lazyness and risk our own informaion.
What I don't understand is why people always impede on others life in the name of liberty, hell if I wanted to throw my name out there and my info, let me do it damnit!
As for your touching comment.... this would be one more thing to touch. You try and touch as little things as possible... with your logic, we should all just touch everything, since we already touched one thing.
Yes, I would give you up, gladly.
Next time you drive to work, use a bag, use a cellphone, anything powered or assisted...just remember your words.
Am I the only who likes the idea of Biometrics, but thinks it's a really, really bad idea to base the scanners on body parts that can be cut off?
The first thing people usually say when I express my fears is : "Ah, but they'll have life-sensors, so it won't work if the finger/eye isn't attached to you any more" to which I invariably reply : "Great, I hope that the totally wired, batshit-crazy, crack-head/tweaker with the pliers who's jacking your car has a good grasp of the technology".
Voice biometrics ftw.
You wont be able to use a dead mans finger nor would you be able to fake a finger. The new biometric systems actually look for various of other metrics and would make a deadmans finger useless.
- Joined
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- 11,934
It worked in Schwarzenegger's movie, Sixth Day and that is in the future.
I'm gonna go on a limb and say in that movie, it's merely a print scanner.
Biometric scanner is not the same as a fingerprint scanner. You can scan dead people's fingerprint, but you can't scan their pulse and heat signature.
My point is, does the jonesing, wacked out, crack-head who wants to use an atm to take your money think that far ahead?
I'd rather he didn't think he'd need my finger as wall as my wallet at all
My point is, does the jonesing, wacked out, crack-head who wants to use an atm to take your money think that far ahead?
I'd rather he didn't think he'd need my finger as wall as my wallet at all
he would rather wait by the atm and get you after you have cash
- Joined
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Do any of you currently work at a gas station?
I work at a Shell gas station in North Kansas City, MO.
I can already tell this is a bad idea, for one reason only. The general public is fucking retarded. What they are asking people to do is actually read the screen for prompts. Asking the general public to follow instructions is next to impossible. These people don't even read or watch the news. Most of the Kansas City Area signed a pre-pay law into effect last year. and our pumps are labeled thoroughly. The screen says pre-pay or swipe the card outside, yet people think that they have the right to pump gas without paying first. The pumps have signs on them that say NO SMOKING, yet these morons smoke at the pump. The pumps have signs on them that say DO NOT LEAVE PUMP UNNATTENDED, yet I have gasoline spills at least once a day from people who drive off with the hose still in their car or the hose falls out of their car's fuel port because they didn't stick it all the way in. The car was says pull forward to exit, yet people still back out of the carwash and tear it to pieces.
What's worst of all, many of these people turn around and demand their money back for their mistakes (or in the case of the car wash, try to sue), usually saying it was our foul equipment that caused the problem.
I work at a Shell gas station in North Kansas City, MO.
I can already tell this is a bad idea, for one reason only. The general public is fucking retarded. What they are asking people to do is actually read the screen for prompts. Asking the general public to follow instructions is next to impossible. These people don't even read or watch the news. Most of the Kansas City Area signed a pre-pay law into effect last year. and our pumps are labeled thoroughly. The screen says pre-pay or swipe the card outside, yet people think that they have the right to pump gas without paying first. The pumps have signs on them that say NO SMOKING, yet these morons smoke at the pump. The pumps have signs on them that say DO NOT LEAVE PUMP UNNATTENDED, yet I have gasoline spills at least once a day from people who drive off with the hose still in their car or the hose falls out of their car's fuel port because they didn't stick it all the way in. The car was says pull forward to exit, yet people still back out of the carwash and tear it to pieces.
What's worst of all, many of these people turn around and demand their money back for their mistakes (or in the case of the car wash, try to sue), usually saying it was our foul equipment that caused the problem.
Actually it's pretty easy to copy ones fingerprint from any polished surface and put it on your own finger.
Chaos Computer Club in Germany showed how well it worked when they used it to fool the fingerprint readers used for Computer log on. And life sign detection would be pretty useless in this case.
It's so much easier to get ones fingerprint than to get his pin. Just think how much places there are on a car to leave your fingerprint...
I guess a lot of people are going to get "free" gas...
Chaos Computer Club in Germany showed how well it worked when they used it to fool the fingerprint readers used for Computer log on. And life sign detection would be pretty useless in this case.
It's so much easier to get ones fingerprint than to get his pin. Just think how much places there are on a car to leave your fingerprint...
I guess a lot of people are going to get "free" gas...
The two things with fingerprints i don't like are:
1) You can be physically forced to used your finger. You can be coerced to turn over your pin, but you must be conscious and willing to do so. By contrast, I can be knocked out and simply have my arm dragged up to the scanner.
2) If someone copies and distributes your fingerprint, you've only got a limited number of "resets" as it were. Eventually you might be using your left pinky finger, hoping no one copies it.
1) You can be physically forced to used your finger. You can be coerced to turn over your pin, but you must be conscious and willing to do so. By contrast, I can be knocked out and simply have my arm dragged up to the scanner.
2) If someone copies and distributes your fingerprint, you've only got a limited number of "resets" as it were. Eventually you might be using your left pinky finger, hoping no one copies it.
You are correct. The same issue was with walmart and the self checkout isles... they ended up yanking them because people were unable to follow simple transactions. Oh and don't get me started on Dave & Busters automated card machine, geeze, you would think that it's simple to understand.
Unfortunatley you are right
Yes, but you can also be knocked out and your wallet taken. Yes, this is one serious flaw with biometrics of any kind, it puts the person at risk.
However, I don't see many people trying to do this for gas.... as the criminal would have to stand there waiting to pump his gas
You can't do anything with the fingerprint, you can print it on paper, but you wont be able to fool a biometric reader with it.
Yes, you can. It's been done.
This is a tech website. We should recognize that hackers replicating things are always a step or three ahead of the infrastructure for telling whether they're fake or not.
While this would be considered absurd by many, it has already been proven possible to mold/print a fingerprint from gelatin. Said print can be given warmth relatively easily, even from someone else's finger(just think of the molded print as a very thin, flat version of a Gummi Bear) and can fool many biometric scanners, though not all of them.Yes, but you can also be knocked out and your wallet taken. Yes, this is one serious flaw with biometrics of any kind, it puts the person at risk.
However, I don't see many people trying to do this for gas.... as the criminal would have to stand there waiting to pump his gas
You can't do anything with the fingerprint, you can print it on paper, but you wont be able to fool a biometric reader with it.
Whether someone would go to the trouble of using it for gasoline pumps is another matter. I find it unlikely, but I think that entry-level biometric devices just aren't sophisticated enough yet. In comparison, if someone knocked me out and took my wallet, they might have my debit card, but they would need the PIN in many situations.
I think the current best solution would be to require a PIN for every transaction, be it debit or credit, ensuring that stolen credit cards wouldn't be very useful for going on a shopping spree. Don't see it happening any time soon though.
In the UK, overnight, about a year ago, everything went chip and PIN. The responsibility fell on the retailers when the system went live. No chip and PIN system in your shop/restaurant etc. meant that you were responsible for frauds.
I haven't used my credit or debit card anywhere in the UK in the last year that didn't have a chip and pin machine. The best thing is that you never lose sight of your card in a restaurant now because the chip and pin machines are handheld and come right to the table.
So it might happen very suddenly wherever you are. The general consumers really didn't get a great deal of warning about it here. Maybe a year or two of chips appearing on cards, followed by a few months of promotion about the system and bang, it just happened overnight.
That'd be great...but in the US, it would probably require state or federal government intervention. And with that knowledge --it ain't happening here any time soon.
I can't see why --two factor authentication is simple, and doesn't cost a lot to implement. Requiring it, rather than making it an option, would, IMO, lessen a lot of fraud here in the States.
It works great for debit cards. No reason it couldn't be done for credit cards.That'd be great...but in the US, it would probably require state or federal government intervention. And with that knowledge --it ain't happening here any time soon.
I can't see why --two factor authentication is simple, and doesn't cost a lot to implement. Requiring it, rather than making it an option, would, IMO, lessen a lot of fraud here in the States.
Visa and Mastercard could simply require a pin on all new credit cards if they wanted.
Exactly. IMO, it ought to be done. Fingerprint ID stuff is a tougher solution than is necessary to a problem that could be solved in a more low-tech fashion that is still likely to be more secure than basic biometrics, and less invasive to privacy.
Nasty_Savage
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2001
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- 37,851
I've got a finger for 'em all right
Well, I guessed I would trow my opinion about all this as well:
As far as germs go, what the hell, stop been picky. I mean, I know that there are germs everywhere and that some are more dangerous than others, but I think we need to train our bodies a little more. I mean, we have like a freaking machine inside of us, called the immune system, that trains itself and fights back. Seriously, I'm from Venezuela (South America), and people there barely worry about this, since they're resistant to most stuff and in some cases they hardly get sick. When we went there for vacation (I live in USA now), we got really sick within a day of been there, we just lost our immunity after been so damn picky here in the States. So yeah, I do agree that is nasty touching something that looks weird, either greasy, or different color than intended, but for that they must have people to clean that once in a while. But for a simple press of a button, and it stills looks completely fine, I don't think anybody will get sick. Gosh, I work drive-trough in MacDonald, do you even have an idea how much money from completely strange people do I touch daily? Well, I just think that people that refuse to use the biometric thing for germs are just over reacting.
Now, as far as security goes. I do agree with some of you that is rather scary that some retarded dude might come, cut my finger off, and then try go get gas with it. True, he fails at getting gas, congrats for my bank account, but now I have a finger missing and there is no money that would ever paid for it, nor enough mental doctors that would recover my peace of mind. Also, I don't want somebody stealing my fingerprints, is not like I can get a new one after 10 business days, unlike debit cards. Plus, I still find it hard to believe that with so many millions of people in the world, a simple fingerprint sets us apart. Also, regarding the PIN comments, I do agree 100% that every card should have one. I mean, there are people that make $100+ purchases and there is no need for a PIN, not they care to check IDs, just swipe and on you go. That is total BS, somebody can easily rob me and broke I go. That is why I always keep my card inside my house, hidden, unless I know I would spend some money with it. In the meanwhile, I just carry little cash and always have my phone full battery in case of emergency.
Overall, I think this is a great idea. I mean, it has a few flaws, but is a very good idea. Are we ready for this yet? Probably not. After they prove that the technology is worth the change over our current standard, I see no need to change it. I still believe that applying PINs for ALL cards as a requirement is an easier, and cheaper approach to our security.
As far as germs go, what the hell, stop been picky. I mean, I know that there are germs everywhere and that some are more dangerous than others, but I think we need to train our bodies a little more. I mean, we have like a freaking machine inside of us, called the immune system, that trains itself and fights back. Seriously, I'm from Venezuela (South America), and people there barely worry about this, since they're resistant to most stuff and in some cases they hardly get sick. When we went there for vacation (I live in USA now), we got really sick within a day of been there, we just lost our immunity after been so damn picky here in the States. So yeah, I do agree that is nasty touching something that looks weird, either greasy, or different color than intended, but for that they must have people to clean that once in a while. But for a simple press of a button, and it stills looks completely fine, I don't think anybody will get sick. Gosh, I work drive-trough in MacDonald, do you even have an idea how much money from completely strange people do I touch daily? Well, I just think that people that refuse to use the biometric thing for germs are just over reacting.
Now, as far as security goes. I do agree with some of you that is rather scary that some retarded dude might come, cut my finger off, and then try go get gas with it. True, he fails at getting gas, congrats for my bank account, but now I have a finger missing and there is no money that would ever paid for it, nor enough mental doctors that would recover my peace of mind. Also, I don't want somebody stealing my fingerprints, is not like I can get a new one after 10 business days, unlike debit cards. Plus, I still find it hard to believe that with so many millions of people in the world, a simple fingerprint sets us apart. Also, regarding the PIN comments, I do agree 100% that every card should have one. I mean, there are people that make $100+ purchases and there is no need for a PIN, not they care to check IDs, just swipe and on you go. That is total BS, somebody can easily rob me and broke I go. That is why I always keep my card inside my house, hidden, unless I know I would spend some money with it. In the meanwhile, I just carry little cash and always have my phone full battery in case of emergency.
Overall, I think this is a great idea. I mean, it has a few flaws, but is a very good idea. Are we ready for this yet? Probably not. After they prove that the technology is worth the change over our current standard, I see no need to change it. I still believe that applying PINs for ALL cards as a requirement is an easier, and cheaper approach to our security.