would a nice soundcard make a difference here?

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phide said:
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said you were a liar, I was merely suggesting the possibility that the improvement you believe you heard was fabricated. If you didn't buy the card, and went into the situation with an open mind, then it certainly lends credence to your claims, and it helps to back up your opinion.

Very few are aware of how powerful the mind is in these types of situations, which is why I pointed it out the possibility. I used words like "assume" and "possible" for a reason.
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Sorry phide, I grouped you in with earlier posters who did say I was lying about the A/B difference.
 
I have my computer's audio going through my home theater's Denon AVR 3801 receiver. I'm using 6 Energy Veritas V2.2i speakers, an 2.0Ci for the center channel, and an S10.3 subwoofer. I use high end cables also so there's not much room for error outside of the computer as far as audio quality goes.

I was using onboard audio on my computer for a long with no complaints, sounded great. DVD's, music, games, etc.
I bought an X-Fi sound card to use instead of onboard audio...
If there was any bottleneck in sound it was obviously my computer.
I did notice a slightly better sound. Nothing to be really impressed over. I went back to onboard because my brother bought the X-Fi off of me.

So if anything, buy new speakers... don't waste money on a new sound card unless you are a serious gamer who wants to use eax and take a little work off of the CPU in games.
 
Phimp said:
I have my computer's audio going through my home theater's Denon AVR 3801 receiver. I'm using 6 Energy Veritas V2.2i speakers, an 2.0Ci for the center channel, and an S10.3 subwoofer. I use high end cables also so there's not much room for error outside of the computer as far as audio quality goes.

I was using onboard audio on my computer for a long with no complaints, sounded great. DVD's, music, games, etc.
I bought an X-Fi sound card to use instead of onboard audio...
If there was any bottleneck in sound it was obviously my computer.
I did notice a slightly better sound. Nothing to be really impressed over. I went back to onboard because my brother bought the X-Fi off of me.

So if anything, buy new speakers... don't waste money on a new sound card unless you are a serious gamer who wants to use eax and take a little work off of the CPU in games.
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ONE BIG GOTCHA:

What Phimp says is 100% accurate if you are running digital signals out of your sound card - digital is digital, whether onboard, XFi, or Prelude.

However, analog output (what many of us use) quality varies dramatically depending on the sound card you have. Heck, some people even replace the OPAMPS on their high-end sound cards to get even better sounding analog out.

So if all you use your soundcard for is digital out (DD, DTS, etc.), then an onboard sound card's digital out is no worse than the most expensive sound card's digital out (assuming the chips don't do anything funky like decoding/processing/reencoding DVD sound signals).
 
I didn't think I needed to specify that I was using digital output being that I'm using a setup in which the speakers cost me nearly seven grand alone. I think it's quite obvious I'm using digital rather than analog ;)
 
If you think your audigy 2zs sound 'night and day' better than a $25 chaintech soundcard or the ops's onboard hd audio on the OPS crappy speakers or your low low end speakers then you are out of your mind. You can say that you 'think' or 'know' that they sounded NIGHT AND DAY better all you want, but in reality we all know its not true. its 1 vs 100, i am sure the ops will know who to listen to.
 
Phimp said:
I didn't think I needed to specify that I was using digital output being that I'm using a setup in which the speakers cost me nearly seven grand alone. I think it's quite obvious I'm using digital rather than analog ;)
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Not really. I assumed the 3801 had six channel analog inputs (now that I've looked, it does not), and assumed that you'd be using that for your system, as you can't get unencoded multichannel via the digi-out. You also mentioned that you use high-end cables, so I again assumed you were using analog (if you spent more than a few bucks on your digital interconnects, you've probably wasted a fair bit of money).

Specifying is somewhat important. Very surprised you noticed a quality improvement from going from on-board to the X-Fi given that you've been using the digital outs only. Perhaps another instance of predominantly fabricated improvement.
 
i might be wrong but i believe digital out is still affected by a soundcards sampling techniques and electrical noise

and an audigy 2 blows away any 25.00 sound card.
i did a few comparison tests thanks to this thread :) . with music.

garage pc -audigy1 and realtek audio w/phillips 10w speakers. definately a difference and an audigy1 has no eq! (at least in vista) with headphones its very obvious

main pc - x-fi xtrememusic and realtek hd. a closer match but the x-fi is better- a little with headphones and a LOT w/5.1 speakers. used senns hd525 and logitech z680's. with eax games the realtek is a mess and whoever wrote the drivers should be shot.

i have a cmi usb soundcard for my lappy- it works better than the realtek hd for games but not music. it blows away the old realtek audio

i have to get a spdif bracket to compare digital outs
 
calvieee said:
If you think your audigy 2zs sound 'night and day' better than a $25 chaintech soundcard or the ops's onboard hd audio on the OPS crappy speakers or your low low end speakers then you are out of your mind. You can say that you 'think' or 'know' that they sounded NIGHT AND DAY better all you want, but in reality we all know its not true. its 1 vs 100, i am sure the ops will know who to listen to.
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Can't let it go, can you? I won't rehash what I said - I stand by my comments.
 
ourfpshero said:
i might be wrong but i believe digital out is still affected by a soundcards sampling techniques and electrical noise

and an audigy 2 blows away any 25.00 sound card.
i did a few comparison tests thanks to this thread :) . with music.

garage pc -audigy1 and realtek audio w/phillips 10w speakers. definately a difference and an audigy1 has no eq! (at least in vista) with headphones its very obvious

main pc - x-fi xtrememusic and realtek hd. a closer match but the x-fi is better- a little with headphones and a LOT w/5.1 speakers. used senns hd525 and logitech z680's. with eax games the realtek is a mess and whoever wrote the drivers should be shot.

i have a cmi usb soundcard for my lappy- it works better than the realtek hd for games but not music. it blows away the old realtek audio

i have to get a spdif bracket to compare digital outs
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And there are many more just like you. Many sound card reviews say either "This thing blows away my old sound card" or "this thing sounds way shittier than my old sound card - RMA!"

But according to calvieee, they are all lying or fools, including you and I.

Go calvieee!
 
NO, he is not a fool. Just you, and i am not the only one calling you a fool. There's plenty of people on this thread that does. hahahahahahaahaha :D

oh..btw Your speakers are really shitty, or as you would call it " a pecie of turd " Get over it. when you grow up, make some money. Buy some real speakers then come back here and we can talk again. Nice meeting you mr. tool

P.s a audigy 2zs will not make your mp3s or movies sound ANY better than a $25 sound card like the chaintech av710 or something like that. The only thing that its better at is some EAX effects in games. come on..someone back me up on this.
 
calvieee said:
NO, he is not a fool. Just you, and i am not the only one calling you a fool. There's plenty of people on this thread that does. hahahahahahaahaha :D

oh..btw Your speakers are really shitty, or as you would call it " a pecie of turd " Get over it. when you grow up, make some money. Buy some real speakers then come back here and we can talk again. Nice meeting you mr. tool
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Well, I am a poor medical student and when I finish residency seven years from now, I will be able to buy a nice setup. Until then, the z680s suit me quite well.

It's pretty funny that you insulted my speakers to hurt my feelings. That's the type of insult that must make you hurt, or I don't think you would have said it. Regardless, my z680s cost about $240, and though they hiss, have an over-powered bass, and are not crystal clear, they sound better than any sub-$500 setup I've ever heard, and I am very happy with them. :)

But feel free to insult me again based on the inanimate objects I own - try my PC: I built it myself so you can't insult the brand, but maybe you could do a funny bit on my graphics card (8800), cpu (Core 2 Duo 6400), my hard drive (80 GB Seagate) or any of the other tech devices I own (Sansa MP3 player, Creative MP3 player, Dell monitor) - have at it.. maybe my feelings will eventually hurt and you will pwn me FTW!1!1!!

calvieee said:
P.s a audigy 2zs will not make your mp3s or movies sound ANY better than a $25 sound card like the chaintech av710 or something like that. The only thing that its better at is some EAX effects in games. come on..someone back me up on this.
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Thank you for repeating yourself - there is strength in repetition, hey Orwell?
 
phide said:
Not really. I assumed the 3801 had six channel analog inputs (now that I've looked, it does not), and assumed that you'd be using that for your system, as you can't get unencoded multichannel via the digi-out. You also mentioned that you use high-end cables, so I again assumed you were using analog (if you spent more than a few bucks on your digital interconnects, you've probably wasted a fair bit of money).

Specifying is somewhat important. Very surprised you noticed a quality improvement from going from on-board to the X-Fi given that you've been using the digital outs only. Perhaps another instance of predominantly fabricated improvement.
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But why would I use analog outputs from onboard audio to my receiver if the digital output sounds better? It may have to be encoded and then decoded, but that doesn't make much of a difference in quality compared to using the cheap onboard analog outputs.

And ya, the onboard digital output has a slight bit of electric interference, but it's almost inaudible. I couldn't notice any interference noises with the X-Fi, but again, it is VERY inaudible with onboard.

So ya it would theoretically sound better to have analog outputs with the X-Fi, but since I'm comparing onboard to the X-Fi, I thought it would be obvious that I'm using digital output.

My post may have been slightly confusing, sorry lol
 
nah, no need to insult you more. Your statements/comments in this thread SPEAKS FOR ITSELF! I guess in 8 years i can really call you Doctor tool huh?
 
ourfpshero said:
i might be wrong but i believe digital out is still affected by a soundcards sampling techniques and electrical noise
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Not really. If by sampling you mean clocking, then, yes, there can be significant variations (though this is often not audible unless the circumstances are severe). Poor clocking, and poor cabling, can introduce a quality known as "jitter", which is measured on a nanosecond scale, and is something like a "smearing" of the digital signal which the receiving device must correct. Only the most revealing system can reveal trace jitter, though cans tend to be useful for this.

I'm willing to bet all of my earthly possessions that all sound cards and on-boards output signals output completely acceptable and inaudible amounts of clocking jitter.

calvieee said:
Buy some real speakers then come back here and we can talk again. Nice meeting you mr. tool
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There's no need for that. Have a discussion, discuss the issues, state your opinion and move on. You haven't really brought anything to the table so far.

calvieee said:
come on..someone back me up on this.
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If the 2 ZS has better components, it's going to sound better. It may sound slightly better on Inspires, while it may sound significantly better on B&Ws.
 
calvieee said:
nah, no need to insult you more. Your statements/comments in this thread SPEAKS FOR ITSELF! I guess in 8 years i can really call you Doctor tool huh?
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Yes, in 8 years you can me Doctor, though I'm sure your mom will still be calling me Daddy.

As for the tool part, that's up to you. If not being deaf and having the ability to discern a good analog output from a bad analog output are qualities that you hate, then sure, keep firing those zingers my way.

Yeah for the Internet, huh calvieee?!?!
 
logitech z680's are not crappy speakers. i dont know anybody who doesnt love them

the problem with all 'audiophile' boards is that sooner or later somebody always threadcraps with a statement to the effect of " if u dont have the super beyer senn opamp tube thingy and spent many thousands of dollars on it it must be crap and u dont know what ur talking about"

time for a life
 
shut up already, getting way off topic already. I don't think there are any other stupid advice you can possibly give Garrett. The OP already made a decision, and I don't think anyone else took you seriously after this:

"In my experience, speakers are the least important for sound quality, sound card/decoder/DACs the most, and amplifiers somewhere in-between." :rolleyes:


/THREAD
 
aZn_plyR said:
"In my experience, speakers are the least important for sound quality, sound card/decoder/DACs the most, and amplifiers somewhere in-between."
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Why didn't anyone take me seriously after that? It's certainly logical:

If you send bad sound to a speaker,the best speaker in the world will faithfully reproduce... bad sound.

If you send bad sound to your amp, the best amp in the world will faithfully amp up... bad sound.

But if you start with great sound quality (i.e. great sound card), and send it to a bad amp or a bad speaker, at least those components have something good to work with, even if they diminish its quality.

When the first component in your system is NOT the best component in your system, you've already undermined everything downstream.


Please, please, please explain why I am wrong. Most of the contrarians on this thread keep telling me I am a joke and my opinions are laughable, but not a one of you has explained why the above logical theory is incorrect, which is the basis for my suggestion to the OP.

Now break it down for me nice and slow - soz eyes canz understandedss

Go for it!
 
It's easy, when you have shit $100 speakers, and your soundcard can give better sound than the speakers can output.

YES EVEN THE DECENT ONBOARD HIGH DEFINITION AUDIO

The source sends the speakers let's say crystal clear sound, but the speakers sucks, what comes out? SHIT. OK got it now?
 
aZn_plyR said:
It's easy, when you have shit $100 speakers, and your soundcard can give better sound than the speakers can output.

YES EVEN THE DECENT ONBOARD HIGH DEFINITION AUDIO

The source sends the speakers let's say crystal clear sound, but the speakers sucks, what comes out? SHIT. OK got it now?
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Wow, no shit.

BUT that's assuming your speakers are shittier than the sound card. For someone looking to replace BOTH speakers AND the soundcard, but can only do ONE right now, the soundcard at least has a chance of helping, because there's a chance the sound card is the weakest link. And later upon upgrading the speakers, the full potential of the upgraded sound card is realized. Buying the great speakers now and upgrading the sound card later means that you will have zero chance of having a better sound unless the soundcard was the better component in the first place, which may or may not be the case.

Try again, and this time let's talk about the same topic.
 
Because every link in the audio chain is equally important (source->sound card->receiver->speakers). An audio setup is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. One could have the best speakers, receiver, and sound card in the world, but if he/she is listening to a poorly encoded mp3, it's still going to sound horrible. If any part of the chain is weak (regardless if it's at the beginning or end), the audio quality will be less than desired.

That is why no one takes you serious. Please don't make outlandish claims like:
speakers are the least important for sound quality
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and then back it up with an even more ridiculous statement:
But if you start with great sound quality (i.e. great sound card), and send it to a bad amp or a bad speaker, at least those components have something good to work with, even if they diminish its quality.
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Where's the logic in that? :confused: You're basically acknowledging the final outcome (the audio quality) is still weak, but because the transformation from good quality to bad quality happened in the final link, it's suppose to be some kind of consolation. Who cares when that transformation occurred? It still doesn't change the final result, weak audio quality!
 
Wow no shit, you were stating that in general, not for the op's situation. So stop repeating whatever everyone else is saying, there is strength in repetition, right?

Why don't you keep milking things, and maybe you can get promoted to [H]ardGawd using this thread eh?

and "In my experience, speakers are the least important for sound quality, sound card/decoder/DACs the most, and amplifiers somewhere in-between."

What experience? I have owned 1 set of z-680's, and 1 set of z-5500's the chaintech av-710, audigy 2 ZS, have hd audio, and an x-fi extreme music, the only benefit of upgrading to the next sound card from the other was EAX, the great deal I got the cards for, and the easier ability of the creative cards to EQ the crappy mids and thin sounding speakers of the logitechs.

Of course sold them for some real speakers and that made a world of difference even on crappy mp3's.
 
Garret Jax said:
Please, please, please explain why I am wrong.
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I already have. Even a moderately capable pre-amp stage is capable of retaining the qualities of the original signal far better than can a speaker or an amplifier. Consider the idea that a system is based entirely on maintaining purity, and the speakers are invariably the limiting factor of the system.

Think about harmonic distortion, as an example. A good sound card can introduce less than .001% THD into a pure signal. An amplifier will inevitably increase this figure by 100 to 10,000 times (or more), mainly comprising of low-order harmonics (second- and third-order, mainly -- not terribly pleasing). A vacuum amp will fare worse on the purity factor, but it introduces pleasing harmonic qualities (plus a dozen more negative qualities). If you were to "rate" a speaker for harmonic distortion...well, you may as well forget it. Fundamentals are destroyed by internal resonance. The drivers encounter physical boundaries that prevent proper excursion. The crossover adds noise, reduces efficiency severely, and colors the sound. The midrange can't properly express the input. The ports introduce turbulence, and stuffing them halves the low frequency extension. Then, you introduce your room. Standing waves cause extreme phase coherence issues. Erratic early reflections muddy frequency response. Basically, you end up ruining the point of a .001% THD source in the first place. The original signal has been effectively demolished.

Imagine that the original signal as pure distilled water. If the output of a DAC is merely filtered water, the output of the amp is pond water, and the output of the speakers is essentially sludge. Even with $10,000 speakers, the situation doesn't change much. The speakers are now simply less sludgy. The kickasstic amp is pond water run through some charcoal and rocks. It's better -- audibly better -- but it still destroys the signal.

You'll find appreciable consensus on this if you take some time to poke around.
 
Moofasa~ said:
Because every link in the audio chain is equally important (source->sound card->receiver->speakers). An audio setup is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. One could have the best speakers, receiver, and sound card in the world, but if he/she is listening to a poorly encoded mp3, it's still going to sound horrible. If any part of the chain is weak (regardless if it's at the beginning or end), the audio quality will be less than desired.

That is why no one takes you serious. Please don't make outlandish claims like: and then back it up with an even more ridiculous statement:
Where's the logic in that? :confused: You're basically acknowledging the final outcome (the audio quality) is still weak, but because the transformation from good quality to bad quality happened in the final link, it's suppose to be some kind of consolation. Who cares when that transformation occurred? It still doesn't change the final result, weak audio quality!
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Most of what you say is true, but you are ignoring something...

In this world, there are two groups of people who listen to audio on their computers:

(1) People with better sound cards than speakers.
(2) People with better speakers than sound cards.

You are 90% right when we talk about group (1) - they need to upgrade their speakers first, because that's the weakest link. Sometimes the speakers are only marginally inferior to the sound card, in which case a large improvement in sound quality from a better sound card might improve overall sound, but that's in a minority of cases.

You are 90% wrong when we talk about group (2) - they need to upgrade their sound cards first, because that's the weakest link.

Every prick on this board insisting that I shouldn't comment is entirely ignoring group 2.

Why? They have rights too! :)
 
OH come on guys...you guys are too mean. Garret is just a poor student...take it easy on him. You guys are hurting his feelings. The audigy 2zs along/ z680 combo is day and night better than anything you guys have.
 
calvieee said:
OH come on guys...you guys are too mean. Garret is just a poor student...take it easy on him. You guys are hurting his feelings. The audigy 2zs along/ z680 combo is day and night better than anything you guys have.
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Sarcasm on the internet... sucks.

Anyway, I said a few posts ago that my system, though I enjoy it a lot, is NOT a great system. Looking at sigs I can see a lot of people have more expensive equipment than I do. However, looking at sigs, I can't tell whether these people have a discerning ear, or whether they're the type who have a 150,000 WATT amp in their trunk with bass so loud you can't even hear the fucking tweeters because their ear drums have ruptured, or maybe these guys are audiophiles. Still doesn't impact the logic of my statements.
 
In this world, there are two groups of people who listen to audio on their computers:

(1) People with better sound cards than speakers.
(2) People with better speakers than sound cards.
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There are far more scenarios than that (like the example I gave you with the poorly encoded mp3).

I'm not talking about any specific group. All I am saying is that all parts of the audio chain are equal, and if one wants better audio quality, all he/she has to do is upgrade their weakest link in the chain (whatever part that may be). You cannot come out and say "speakers are the least important for sound quality" because it simply is not true.
 
calvieee said:
Garret Jax said:
Sarcasm on the internet... sucks.

does it? and bringing someone's mother into a thread = doesnt suck? you are living in your own little world huh?
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lol - I knew I would get you with that one. But after being called a tool over and over again, and having my gear insulted, I figured I would bust one your way - see if you like it as much as your mother does.
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Moofasa~ said:
There are far more scenarios than that (like the example I gave you with the poorly encoded mp3).

I'm not talking about any specific group. All I am saying is that all parts of the audio chain are equal, and if one wants better audio quality, all he/she has to do is upgrade their weakest link in the chain (whatever part that may be). You cannot come out and say "speakers are the least important for sound quality" because it simply is not true.
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But let's think about this for a moment - the high-end sound cards cost $200. The high-end speakers cost $1000's and $1000's of dollars. In a perfect world, we'd have the best of both. But the OP wanted one or the other as a temporary solution. So spend $200 on a sound card and get high quality equipment, or spend even $400 and get modest speakers.

For the amounts of money we are talking here, a new sound card gets you a lot more quality improvement (from bottom-of-the barrel to nearly top-notch) - all he could get speakers-wise was a solution only slightly better than he has now.

But regardless of all of this, in my experience, swapping a shitty and good sound card on two different 5.1 setups led to great improvements in sound in both cases.

Conclusion: the sound card mattered a great deal in those cases - definitely more than the speakers. Twice. And others have posted numerous times in this thread and in every sound card review I've ever read how much better everything sounded with the new sound card.

Seems like group 2 is more common than you'd think.
 
Moofasa~ said:
There are far more scenarios than that
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??? Of course - there are infinite scenarios, but we aren't talking about all of them - there isn't enough time (or reason).

But EVERYONE doing computer audio fits into one of those two categories - including you, so it's a great framework for this little discussion.
 
Garret Jax said:
calvieee said:
lol - I knew I would get you with that one. But after being called a tool over and over again, and having my gear insulted, I figured I would bust one your way - see if you like it as much as your mother does.
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HAHAHHAAHA... you think you got me with that one? hahahahaahah....oh wow.. you are more stupid than i thought. Only a retarded kid uses your mother this and your mother that. we are all adults here. oh by the way...i still think you are still a f"king tool and your speakers n soundcard still suck ass. Same for you.. a new sound card like the x-fi or better wont do SHIT for you. your money is better spend on better speakers.
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Conclusion: the sound card mattered a great deal in those cases - definitely more than the speakers. Twice
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Completely false. For example, when I listen to music I use the digital output on my sound card to my receiver. If I were to only use my computer for music/movies playback, there would be no benefit in spending $200 for a "nice" sound card, a simple $20 Chaintech AV-710 would do fine. So if I were listening to DVD-Audio discs with a AV-710 using the digital output to my receiver with bad speakers, what part of the audio chain should I upgrade to receive better audio quality? By your logic spending $200 on a "better" sound card would be two times better than spending $200 on better speakers, which hopefully by now you have recognized to be false. Clearly in this situation spending $200 on upgrading the speakers would be infinitely better than spending $200 on a new sound card.

So it all goes back to what I said before, there are way more than two groups (you generalize things too much). In addition you keep making assumptions based on certain situations which not everyone falls under. Once again, if one wants to improve their audio experience, he/she needs to determine their weakest link in the audio chain (whatever that may be) and upgrade it
 
Moofasa~ said:
Completely false.
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WRONG!!! You assume I used digital - but I use analog more often. I stand by what I said - in my case, with the Audigy 1 vs 2 on Logitech z680s and Creative 5700s, the sound card made a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

Moofasa~ said:
For example, when I listen to music I use the digital output on my sound card to my receiver. If I were to only use my computer for music/movies playback, there would be no benefit in spending $200 for a "nice" sound card, a simple $20 Chaintech AV-710 would do fine. So if I were listening to DVD-Audio discs with a AV-710 using the digital output to my receiver with bad speakers, what part of the audio chain should I upgrade to receive better audio quality? By your logic spending $200 on a "better" sound card would be two times better than spending $200 on better speakers, which hopefully by now you have recognized to be false. Clearly in this situation spending $200 on upgrading the speakers would be infinitely better than spending $200 on a new sound card.

So it all goes back to what I said before, there are way more than two groups (you generalize things too much). In addition you keep making assumptions based on certain situations which not everyone falls under. Once again, if one wants to improve their audio experience, he/she needs to determine their weakest link in the audio chain (whatever that may be) and upgrade it
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Moofasa, it's called a general rule for a reason.


Anyway, you guys want to know some seriously comical shit?

I am considering passing on the new sound card and get this... BUYING NEW FUCKING SPEAKERS!!!

lol at me FTW!

I have an Audigy 2 ZS and wanted the Prelude that's coming out, but I fear that my Audigy 2 ZS is better than my z680 speakers, making the z680s the weakest link, making me want to upgrade those first.

WOOT WOOT

Now I have to decide which crazy $500 - $800 speakers to buy. Still low-end, but if I forsake 5.1 and spend it all on stereo speakers, maybe I'll get the sound quality I am looking for.
 
calvieee said:
Garret Jax said:
HAHAHHAAHA... you think you got me with that one? hahahahaahah....oh wow.. you are more stupid than i thought. Only a retarded kid uses your mother this and your mother that. we are all adults here. oh by the way...i still think you are still a f"king tool and your speakers n soundcard still suck ass. Same for you.. a new sound card like the x-fi or better wont do SHIT for you. your money is better spend on better speakers.
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I don't believe you for a second calvieee, I think it did piss you off. It certainly changed the tone of your replies to me. But I really don't care about your insults directed at me! They aren't witty or biting, they're just silly. But now that I know how you operate, it's fun to ruffle your feathers, just like it's fun to ruffle your moms'.
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WRONG!!! You assume I used digital - but I use analog more often.
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We were never talking about your system specifically, but general audio situations, in which case your "two group system" doesn't include many situations.

Moofasa, it's called a general rule for a reason.
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There is no general rule for audio, which is the whole point I've been trying to make. If you don't understand that by now, I'm afraid there's little hope that you ever will.

I stand by what I said
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And thus why you were never be taken seriously on any audio forum.
 
wow I am unsubscribed, can't tolerate little kids like garrett making mommy jokes lol...
 
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