IPhone Sales Will Disappoint?

[Martyr]

my biggest b33f with iP is you can't replace batteries. wtf kinda' design is that shit? other than that it does look pretty nifty. reminds me of star trek TNG communicator!!!!

as soon as someone hacks this or another copycat version of this phone comes out, some trekkie will make a skin, i will soon be scanning for lifeforms

i already own all the star trek tos ringtones

lg is already making a similiar phone http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth/

 

[heero884]

Read between the lines in my post. Those are all things that come in extremely useful for a variety of jobs. I probably use our exchange server the most out of any feature on my phone. Although the GPS does come in handy when I am doing any consultant work. One of the biggest applications that I use is a remote access client from my phone to our networks. Saves me a lot of grief needless to say.

I also forgot to mention that we do all the scheduling and billing using our phones.

Ahhh I see, I was curious what kind of "hard core" stuff people do with their phones.

The reason I asked is because I hear all these people complaining about how the iphone is missing such and such feature and they need such and such feature while in my state office the only thing people do with their BlackBerry is voice calls, e-mail, and wireless internet. From what you said about tethering, mapping, and e-mail I couldn't see how the iphone would be a "downgrade" but after you said scheduling and billing that made a bit more sense.

Personally I like the features of the iphone but I won't be getting one as it's just too big. The size is a deal breaker as I like having my phone in the front pocket of my jeans and I don't think the iphone will be too comfortable in there.

 

[heero884]

lg is already making a similiar phone http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth/

AKA the LG Prada phone..

If you thought the iphone was expensive you should check out the price of the LG Prada.. $700 unlocked and it doesn't even support the 850 band used in the US.

 

[Ockie]

AKA the LG Prada phone..

If you thought the iphone was expensive you should check out the price of the LG Prada.. $700 unlocked and it doesn't even support the 850 band used in the US.

$700 unlocked vs $600 locked is not a bad thing. Anyways, there are cheaper alternatives... this one is for the Paris Hiltons of the world anyways.

 

[heero884]

$700 unlocked vs $600 locked is not a bad thing. Anyways, there are cheaper alternatives... this one is for the Paris Hiltons of the world anyways.

Maybe the LG Prada wasn't the best example to use to make my point but it was the closest thing to the iphone that I could think of at the moment.

A lot of people seem shocked at the $600 price tag of the iphone like it's the most expensive phone ever but there are more expensive phones out there..
HTC Advantage - $1200
HTC Touch - $600
Nokia 8800 - $800

In no way am I saying the price tag of the iphone is justified and that it's the greatest phone ever. I just wanted to say (this rant isn't aimed at anyone specifically) that there IS a market for the iphone. There may be many of you happily content with your "free" phone and there might be a few of you that NEED windows mobile but there are definitely people out there that will be happy to spend the big bucks to get the iphone (no it doesn't necessarily appeal to mac zealots or idiots )

With all that said, unfortunately I am one of those people that are willing to spend the money to get a nice phone but I already spent quite a bit on my current phone so I'll be passing on the iphone. However if the rumored iphone revision with a-gps and 3g does come out next year at a reasonable price then I may consider it..

 

[Martyr]

Maybe the LG Prada wasn't the best example to use to make my point but it was the closest thing to the iphone that I could think of at the moment.

A lot of people seem shocked at the $600 price tag of the iphone like it's the most expensive phone ever but there are more expensive phones out there..
HTC Advantage - $1200
HTC Touch - $600
Nokia 8800 - $800

In no way am I saying the price tag of the iphone is justified and that it's the greatest phone ever. I just wanted to say (this rant isn't aimed at anyone specifically) that there IS a market for the iphone. There may be many of you happily content with your "free" phone and there might be a few of you that NEED windows mobile but there are definitely people out there that will be happy to spend the big bucks to get the iphone (no it doesn't necessarily appeal to mac zealots or idiots )

With all that said, unfortunately I am one of those people that are willing to spend the money to get a nice phone but I already spent quite a bit on my current phone so I'll be passing on the iphone. However if the rumored iphone revision with a-gps and 3g does come out next year at a reasonable price then I may consider it..

there may be a market, but some people are expecting this to have sales similar to the ipod.

 

[heero884]

there may be a market, but some people are expecting this to have sales similar to the ipod.

I also believe it's too early to predict the success of the iphone.. especially when it hasn't even been released yet. It could be a success like the ipod (which debuted at $400/$500) or it can flop like the newton. What I don't get is why is there so many vocal naysayers? It's like people want to see apple to fail..

and regarding Jim Louderback, I really wonder if he's gotten a chance to play with the iphone.. for someone that hasn't touched the phone he seems pretty convinced it's going to fail.

No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad.
Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet.
Slow Internet - see above
High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one.
Poor battery life

 

[heero884]

I also believe it's too early to predict the success of the iphone.. especially when it hasn't even been released yet. It could be a success like the ipod (which debuted at $400/$500) or it can flop like the newton. What I don't get is why is there so many vocal naysayers? It's like people want to see apple to fail..

and regarding Jim Louderback, I really wonder if he's gotten a chance to play with the iphone.. for someone that hasn't touched the phone he seems pretty convinced it's going to fail.

No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad.
Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet.
Slow Internet - see above
High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one.
Poor battery life

Opps left out the bit for "Poor Battery Life." Isn't the expected battery life of the phone 5 hours of talk time? There are a lot of phones out there with less..

 

[theDreamer]

Opps left out the bit for "Poor Battery Life." Isn't the expected battery life of the phone 5 hours of talk time? There are a lot of phones out there with less..

I am not knocking the 5 hour talk time, I think it is fine, as do many others.
Though the problem people have with it is that it has Zero ways to exchange the battery. This is where it kills the whole phone part for me. I am many times driving or at school, no where near an outlet let alone have my charger with me so if my office is calling me all day, I will have a dead battery quickly with no chance of a recharge.

If that one feature could be changed or way around (third battery battery?) then it would seem like a better buy. Yet that means dropping X money on this, plus buying Y product to get more battery life.

~That said I am all for this succeeding and being a good success as it will expand the cell market and push it forward. If nothing else comes out of this it will force other cell makers to expand beyond the everyday that has been going on for years & try to push more boundaries.

 

[Martyr]

I also believe it's too early to predict the success of the iphone.. especially when it hasn't even been released yet. It could be a success like the ipod (which debuted at $400/$500) or it can flop like the newton. What I don't get is why is there so many vocal naysayers? It's like people want to see apple to fail..

and regarding Jim Louderback, I really wonder if he's gotten a chance to play with the iphone.. for someone that hasn't touched the phone he seems pretty convinced it's going to fail.

No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad.
Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet.
Slow Internet - see above
High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one.
Poor battery life

everyone and their mother has a razor because they dropped the price and MANY carriers gave them out free with 2 year plans. i dont see that happening for the iphone.

 

[heero884]

I am not knocking the 5 hour talk time, I think it is fine, as do many others.
Though the problem people have with it is that it has Zero ways to exchange the battery. This is where it kills the whole phone part for me. I am many times driving or at school, no where near an outlet let alone have my charger with me so if my office is calling me all day, I will have a dead battery quickly with no chance of a recharge.

If that one feature could be changed or way around (third battery battery?) then it would seem like a better buy. Yet that means dropping X money on this, plus buying Y product to get more battery life.

~That said I am all for this succeeding and being a good success as it will expand the cell market and push it forward. If nothing else comes out of this it will force other cell makers to expand beyond the everyday that has been going on for years & try to push more boundaries.

Excellent points you made. It would be nice if there was a user changeable battery. Apple has no legit reason to seal the battery within the device other than to charge the consumer some ridiculous price for a new battery *sigh*

As for forcing other cell phone makers to be more innovation I hope so as well.

everyone and their mother has a razor because they dropped the price and MANY carriers gave them out free with 2 year plans. i dont see that happening for the iphone.

You have to remember it wasn't until 2 years after the RAZR was released that they were giving it away for free with 2 year contracts (and even then it was the original V3 not the newer V3R or V3XX) For a phone that was released for $500 with contract ($800 without contract) it's been pretty successful don't you think?

 

[Martyr]

Excellent points you made. It would be nice if there was a user changeable battery. Apple has no legit reason to seal the battery within the device other than to charge the consumer some ridiculous price for a new battery *sigh*

As for forcing other cell phone makers to be more innovation I hope so as well.



You have to remember it wasn't until 2 years after the RAZR was released that they were giving it away for free with 2 year contracts (and even then it was the original V3 not the newer V3R or V3XX) For a phone that was released for $500 with contract ($800 without contract) it's been pretty successful don't you think?

it wasnt sucessful until they started selling them for $50 to free.

 

[heero884]

it wasn't successful until they started selling them for $50 to free.

Mmm I would have to disagree unless you associate success with being mainstream. The RAZR was quite popular even before it became a mainstream phone.

 

[Martyr]

Mmm I would have to disagree unless you associate success with being mainstream. The RAZR was quite popular even before it became a mainstream phone.

popularity does not mean sales. just because someone wants one doesnt mean they will actually buy one.

 

[heero884]

popularity does not mean sales. just because someone wants one doesnt mean they will actually buy one.

I was implying it was selling well...

 

[nilepez]

popularity does not mean sales. just because someone wants one doesnt mean they will actually buy one.

Perhaps not, but I saw plenty of them back when they were 300-400 bucks.

And unlike the Razr, the iPhone will have the advantage of having an iPod. People will rationalize that the phone is $200.00 less (maybe even 250 or so, given the larger screen size for video). There are a lot more people willing to pay 250-300 than you'd think.

I still think that's too much, but I also think it will drop some by Christmas if sales slow. Of course if this Qualcom 3g chipset ban holds, they may not have to worry about it.

That said, I agree with others that not having a user replaceable battery is just f*cking dumb. People have been bitching about that with iPods for years (though I gotta say that the battery on my Rio Karma isn't easily replaced either), and there's far more of a precedent with phones than with DAPs. What's more, if people are using this phone for so many purposes, an extra battery would certainly come in handy.

 

[HardOCP News]

Stupidly wealthy perhaps... or those with an overly developed sense of style (form) over function. Wait, isn't that a requisite for being stupidly wealthy?

To be fair, why do people buy fast cars, big houses, or expensive jewelry??

Actually, a fast car, big houses and expensive jewelry actually do offer something over their counterparts:

A fast car offers speed
A big house offers size (more house)
Expensive jewelry is value (worth more)

"stupidly weathly" is when you pay $599 for Levi 501 jeans because they are sold in a shop on Rodeo Drive when everyone else is buying the same jeans at Wal-Mart for $29.99.

 

[Ockie]

I also believe it's too early to predict the success of the iphone.. especially when it hasn't even been released yet. It could be a success like the ipod (which debuted at $400/$500) or it can flop like the newton. What I don't get is why is there so many vocal naysayers? It's like people want to see apple to fail..

and regarding Jim Louderback, I really wonder if he's gotten a chance to play with the iphone.. for someone that hasn't touched the phone he seems pretty convinced it's going to fail.

No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad.
Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet.
Slow Internet - see above
High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one.
Poor battery life

Like I said before, it's not the concept of the iphone, is the "coolness" and the "first" comments from apple that we hate. If apple didn't say this was "the first" in many categories then I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The thing is apple takes some ordinary and hypes it up so much and sells it for twice the price... thats where I have a problem with it.


No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad. (Such as?? I haven't heard of any true sucessful pda phone with no keypad)
Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet. (3G is availible on thier other phones right now)
Slow Internet - see above (Other carriers offer EVDO and 3G for all their new phones, regular internet for phones is slow...)
High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one. (the razr wasn't owned by everyone when it first came out, in fact, i didn't know a sinlge person who paid the $500 price tag for it... the price quickly dropped to adopt to what the public was willing to pay... don't think the iphone will do that)
Poor battery life (It's not the battery life that is an issue, it's the inability to not be able to replace the batteries... personally, i use multiple battery packs, so when you are out camping for instance, you can have power... or for those long times on the road away from an outlet)

 

[heero884]

Like I said before, it's not the concept of the iphone, is the "coolness" and the "first" comments from apple that we hate. If apple didn't say this was "the first" in many categories then I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The thing is apple takes some ordinary and hypes it up so much and sells it for twice the price... thats where I have a problem with it.

So would you not agree with me that Apple is a innovative company? They may not be the first at anything but they add features (like the "scroll wheel") that put them ahead of the game. The obvious example for me to prove my point would be the iPod. Apple was certainly not the first company in the flash/hard drive music player business but they were the first to release a music player that was intuitive and easy to use. Because of this, they were able to sell millions of iPods. I guess you would probably think of the "iPod" as something ordinary and over hyped though

Any company that can sell a product for twice the price of their competitors and be successful at doing that deserves my admiration. I might hate it as a consumer but I will have admiration for them. Don't believe that any other company wouldn't follow suit if they could..

I guess I'm not too clear in my posts but I'm trying to say that the iPhone is clearly not for everyone. There are people that need Windows Mobile and there are people that only want a "free" phone. There are people that NEED X feature and there are people that can live with Y feature. Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. Take the Chevrolet Corvette for example. Just because you need 4 seats or good gas mileage doesn't mean there won't be a market for the car.

No buttons/keys - There are plenty of other successful touchscreen phones that don't have a dedicated number pad. (Such as?? I haven't heard of any true sucessful pda phone with no keypad)

I said there are successful touchscreen phones without a dedicated number pad. The iPhone will be the first phone that I know of that has no dedicated buttons. It was only a matter of time before cell phone manufacturers removed the last couple buttons from the phone. If you're looking for examples of successful touchscreen phones then please take a look around www.gsmarena.com

Cumbersome, slow e-mail and messaging - It's got EDGE.. 3G isn't even widely available yet. (3G is availible on thier other phones right now)
Slow Internet - see above (Other carriers offer EVDO and 3G for all their new phones, regular internet for phones is slow...)

3G is definitely nice but coverage isn't exactly great right now. If you're lucky enough to get good 3G coverage then I envy you as there are a lot of areas that have spotty 3G coverage. Fortunately for me and other EDGE users, AT&T has been improving their EDGE network lately.

3G phones have only recently become popular. I doubt the majority of AT&T subscribers even have a 3G enabled phone so getting the iPhone would not be a downgrade in terms of connectivity. Would it have been nice if the iPhone had 3G support? Yes. Is it a requirement for the majority of AT&T's subscribers? No.

High price - The razr debuted at a high price as well but now everyone and their mother has one. (the razr wasn't owned by everyone when it first came out, in fact, i didn't know a sinlge person who paid the $500 price tag for it... the price quickly dropped to adopt to what the public was willing to pay... don't think the iphone will do that)

For the record, I knew a couple people who did indeed pay for the $500 price tag for it. You may not know this but there is a market for high end phones. Check out www.howardforums.com Plenty of people paying top dollar for the newest phones. Also I see no reason why the iphone wouldn't drop in price over the course of it's product life. It may not drop to $50 with a 2 year plan but it will be more affordable than today's targeted price.

Poor battery life (It's not the battery life that is an issue, it's the inability to not be able to replace the batteries... personally, i use multiple battery packs, so when you are out camping for instance, you can have power... or for those long times on the road away from an outlet)

Not being able to change the battery != poor battery life. As I have said in previous posts Apple has dropped the ball with this. They no excuse what-so-ever.

 

[nilepez]

So would you not agree with me that Apple is a innovative company? They may not be the first at anything but they add features (like the "scroll wheel") that put them ahead of the game. The obvious example for me to prove my point would be the iPod. Apple was certainly not the first company in the flash/hard drive music player business but they were the first to release a music player that was intuitive and easy to use. Because of this, they were able to sell millions of iPods. I guess you would probably think of the "iPod" as something ordinary and over hyped though

I don't think that's the only factor. I'm not even sure if it's the main factor in the iPods success.

At the time that the iPod really started to take off, Rio had the Karma, which, depending on who you talked to, had an interface that was equal to the iPod, slightly better than the ipod or slightly worse.

What the iPod had that Rio didn't have was a more stylish look and a huge marketing campaign. I'm not sure Rio could have marketed $100.00 bills at 2 for a buck. I know it was only because the iPod didn't have gapless than I kept searching for a different player.

I doubt the average person is even aware of any other brand of DAP.

3G is definitely nice but coverage isn't exactly great right now. If you're lucky enough to get good 3G coverage then I envy you as there are a lot of areas that have spotty 3G coverage. Fortunately for me and other EDGE users, AT&T has been improving their EDGE network lately.

You are absolutely, 100% correct here. It's a fact taht AT&T has a terrible 3G footprint. People may have 3G phones, but that doesn't mean they have 3G access. Would it be better to have 3G? Sure, but I don't think it's a deal killer for most of their subscribers...and early adopters that aren't in 3G areas, won't care....they'll upgrade their phone 2 or 3 times, more than likely, in the next 12 months.

Not being able to change the battery != poor battery life. As I have said in previous posts Apple has dropped the ball with this. They no excuse what-so-ever.

[/quote]

No they don't. WTF were they thinking? Surely they could have put a slot to slide a battery in/out. I assume the press will chalk that up as a negative. It'd be bad enough on a regular phone, but on a multipurpose unit like the iPhone, it's a huge gaffe.

 

[Ockie]

So would you not agree with me that Apple is a innovative company?

Innovative, yes, but not the first. The innovative thing I found was the gyro on thier phone.

They may not be the first at anything but they add features (like the "scroll wheel") that put them ahead of the game. The obvious example for me to prove my point would be the iPod. Apple was certainly not the first company in the flash/hard drive music player business but they were the first to release a music player that was intuitive and easy to use. Because of this, they were able to sell millions of iPods. I guess you would probably think of the "iPod" as something ordinary and over hyped though

I have an Ipod. I wouldn't say that the "wheel" put them in power of being the most popular, I would say it was itunes.

Any company that can sell a product for twice the price of their competitors and be successful at doing that deserves my admiration. I might hate it as a consumer but I will have admiration for them. Don't believe that any other company wouldn't follow suit if they could..

I can agree there

I guess I'm not too clear in my posts but I'm trying to say that the iPhone is clearly not for everyone. There are people that need Windows Mobile and there are people that only want a "free" phone. There are people that NEED X feature and there are people that can live with Y feature. Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. Take the Chevrolet Corvette for example. Just because you need 4 seats or good gas mileage doesn't mean there won't be a market for the car.

Well my take wasn't about leaving Y and taking X. My take was why not get both X and Y.

I said there are successful touchscreen phones without a dedicated number pad. The iPhone will be the first phone that I know of that has no dedicated buttons. It was only a matter of time before cell phone manufacturers removed the last couple buttons from the phone. If you're looking for examples of successful touchscreen phones then please take a look around www.gsmarena.com

Sucessful in terms of the function, but not in sales numbers or popularity. So I would say it's not very sucessful as the market didn't grow, more phones now than ever before are coming out with creative keypad designs.

3G is definitely nice but coverage isn't exactly great right now. If you're lucky enough to get good 3G coverage then I envy you as there are a lot of areas that have spotty 3G coverage. Fortunately for me and other EDGE users, AT&T has been improving their EDGE network lately.

Still would have been the selling point for me.

3G phones have only recently become popular. I doubt the majority of AT&T subscribers even have a 3G enabled phone so getting the iPhone would not be a downgrade in terms of connectivity. Would it have been nice if the iPhone had 3G support? Yes. Is it a requirement for the majority of AT&T's subscribers? No.

For $600 and competing to other pda smart phones, you need this capability. Kinda like a Ferarri with only S-Rated tires on it... all that power, all that technology, and all that looks.... but can't go fast.

For the record, I knew a couple people who did indeed pay for the $500 price tag for it. You may not know this but there is a market for high end phones. Check out www.howardforums.com Plenty of people paying top dollar for the newest phones. Also I see no reason why the iphone wouldn't drop in price over the course of it's product life. It may not drop to $50 with a 2 year plan but it will be more affordable than today's targeted price.

I am aware of the market as I am in that market segment, thus I have a $750 phone and in the next month or two I am looking at getting a new phone, possibly the new Samsung or the XV8800. However, this market is not a large market and is not the size of market apple is expecting.

If you think apple will drop prices, how much price dropping have you seen on their desktops or ipods? They'd rather release a new product than dumping their prices.

Not being able to change the battery != poor battery life. As I have said in previous posts Apple has dropped the ball with this. They no excuse what-so-ever.

I never said poor battery life, it's a poor design. 5 hours of talk time is reasonable, except when you run out of that 5 hours and you have no other means to charge... whereas with other phones you can swap batteries.

 

[jacuzz1]

But it's not even a "regular PDA." Is lacks 3G. It lacks any enterprise level email conectivity.

It is an iPod with a really crappy phone grafted on to it and a nice UI. Apple does great UI work but it's still lipstick on a pig.

I think it will launch well but only the loyal Acolytes of The Jobs will buy in to it.

I could not have said it better myself

 

[heero884]

I don't think that's the only factor. I'm not even sure if it's the main factor in the iPods success.

At the time that the iPod really started to take off, Rio had the Karma, which, depending on who you talked to, had an interface that was equal to the iPod, slightly better than the ipod or slightly worse.

What the iPod had that Rio didn't have was a more stylish look and a huge marketing campaign. I'm not sure Rio could have marketed $100.00 bills at 2 for a buck. I know it was only because the iPod didn't have gapless than I kept searching for a different player.

I doubt the average person is even aware of any other brand of DAP.

That's true, but the scroll wheel was what got me. I've owned a Rio and a couple iRivers but they weren't that efficient in browsing through songs. To me the interface for the iPod makes perfect sense but that would a rant for another day

It's too bad Rio couldn't duplicate Apple's success. They were actually pretty decent back then.

Innovative, yes, but not the first. The innovative thing I found was the gyro on thier phone.

Most definitely. Personally I would add multi-touch to that list

I have an Ipod. I wouldn't say that the "wheel" put them in power of being the most popular, I would say it was itunes.

I guess I'm the only one with the scroll wheel obsession then

Well my take wasn't about leaving Y and taking X. My take was why not get both X and Y.

For sure. Since you're into high end phones you should probably know better than I do that there is no "perfect" phone.

For $600 and competing to other pda smart phones, you need this capability. Kinda like a Ferarri with only S-Rated tires on it... all that power, all that technology, and all that looks.... but can't go fast.

Possibly, we'll see soon. And yikes, I've read a while ago that Ferraris come stock with S-Rated tires but I would have thought they've changed that by now.. not that it matters I guess, few Ferrari owners even go that fast (minus that crazy gizmondo executive of course )

I am aware of the market as I am in that market segment, thus I have a $750 phone and in the next month or two I am looking at getting a new phone, possibly the new Samsung or the XV8800. However, this market is not a large market and is not the size of market apple is expecting.

Nokia N95? I thought that would be the "ultimate" phone but unfortunately I am potentially back into the market for a new phone..

If you think apple will drop prices, how much price dropping have you seen on their desktops or ipods? They'd rather release a new product than dumping their prices.

That's a good point..

I never said poor battery life, it's a poor design. 5 hours of talk time is reasonable, except when you run out of that 5 hours and you have no other means to charge... whereas with other phones you can swap batteries.

Without a doubt!

 

[nilepez]

If you think apple will drop prices, how much price dropping have you seen on their desktops or ipods? They'd rather release a new product than dumping their prices.

I think their prices have fallen quite a bit over the years. Yes, the top end iPod may cost as much as older top end iPod (give or take), but a 30GB iPod certainly costs less than a 20GB model cost 2 or 3 years ago.

I think they've got a fair amount of room to maneuver on price. And they have to know that prices will drop. They own the DAP market (especially the HD DAP market). They really don't have much competition, despite the fact that they have many competitors. They're basically Microsoft.

But with phones, they're one among many.

Clearly the floor on prices is such that the price will always be at least as much, if not more, than an iPod with similar storage and features.

Apple can do that, because Cingular will likely subsidize to some degree and I believe that Apple gets a piece of the subscription itself.

That's true, but the scroll wheel was what got me. I've owned a Rio and a couple iRivers but they weren't that efficient in browsing through songs. To me the interface for the iPod makes perfect sense but that would a rant for another day

It's too bad Rio couldn't duplicate Apple's success. They were actually pretty decent back then.

I find the Karma very easy to navigate. I can't speak with authority about their other DAPs.

Rio could have been successful, if they'd done marketing. They were in the game when the Karma came out, but I don't think anyone ever saw an ad. Sales people in B&M shops generally knew nothing about the player.

Word of mouth works with tech geeks, but it's not enough when a major competitor is putting out one great 30 second ad after another (never mind all the print ads). I suspect the blame lies with the parent company Denon/Marantz.

 

[Martyr]

Apple can do that, because Cingular will likely subsidize to some degree and I believe that Apple gets a piece of the subscription itself.

again, the $600 price already is subsidized via contract.

 

[nilepez]

again, the $600 price already is subsidized via contract.

Maybe...but maybe not. Earlier in the year it was said that Apple will get a percentage of every monthly bill from iPhone subscribers. I could be wrong, but I don't think other handset providers get that.

Regardless, I still think there's at least 100 to 150 bucks of wiggle room.