Operation FastLink Nets 50th Conviction

[HardOCP News]

The U.S. Department of Justice has announced the 50th felony conviction thanks to Operation FastLink and its ongoing crackdown on organized piracy groups.

Eaves acknowledged that he was a leading member in the illegal software, game, movie, and music trade online, commonly referred to as the "warez" scene, the DOJ said. Eaves was an active member of the Apocalypse Crew, a group that acted as a first provider of copyrighted music to the Internet by serving as the original source for many of the pirated works distributed and downloaded online, the DOJ said.

 

[Fooshnik]

Wow. He was the last of a kind. The end is here.

 

[BillR]

I have sort of mixed emotions on this topic, so my first point:

Prior to digital music and movies, or back in the day so to speak, people would spend anywhere from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars on cassette decks to copy their records so they could play their music in the car, or carry it around in a walkman. All this equipment was sold openly on the market and advertised on radio and TV and many of the products sold, such as the walkman, invented by Sony were also deeply involved in the music business. In other words the same idiots who want to protect their intellectual property today basically invented the whole idea and methodology on how to copy and share. The same held true for movies on tape. Go video actually sold a VHS to VHS machine that removed macrovison and sold those products openly in retail stores.

Move forward a year or two and again, Sony was the leader in digital tape with DAT. Now we could transfer our analog recordings to full digital, and again share or play in the car etc. Portable DAT was next so you could carry your music in your pocket and with a good microphone actually record a concert although the later part about concerts was pretty much frowned upon by the bands with the notable exception of the Grateful Dead who actually had a huge patch board at each and every concert where they were glad to plug you right in to their mixing board.

There is tons more history here involving Denon and Philips etc. but I think I made my point that the very people pushing to arrest people today for copying music and sharing music and movies are the selfsame people who invented the technology and sold it to us, the public, to start with!

This to me represents the ultimate in irony and duplicity!!

The excuse they give of course is now we are able to make a perfect or near perfect bit for bit copy and as such NOW we are causing them harm. This excuse should never ever be able to stand up in court because the fact is, Microsoft, Sony, and whoever invented the MP-3 codecs did so knowing full well that you instantly lose the bit for bit argument when you use any compression technology and you end up with a far less then perfect copy. The fact is there is far less information lost on a good analog to analog copy then when compression is used.

During this period we all know the DRM laws that were passed and we all read and pretty much understood them. Now they want to change rules in the middle of the game.

My second point is much shorter, we all agree to the terms when we install software on our computers and we should all know by now we don’t own that software, only the right to use it as licensed. If you think a piece of software is just too damn expensive and that justifies you stealing it you are wrong. That’s like stealing from work because you don’t think they pay you enough. I can find no room for rationalization for pirated software.

My third and most annoying gripe is this: Only 50 people have been busted so far? How can the DOJ and the RIAA be so totally incompetent? They can’t get thousands of IP addresses by joining a Bit Torrent or two? I mean face it; there is damn little legal data to be had on any Torrent site. If most of us already know which IRC sites not only permit rooms to be named “warez” they actually encourage it then why doesn’t the DOJ?

My point and ultimate question here is simple, are all the so called governing bodies really that incompetent or are they in cahoots with music and movie industry. With only 50 convictions to report they seem to be trying to tell the public at large to be more careful or just confirming you have little chance of being caught because they have neither the time nor inclination to do anything serious about the issue.

There is so much ambiguity going on here I tend to be amused and confused by the whole endless process.

 

[Plumber4life]

Just like the last poster I agree 100%. I have known chris since them days and also worked with him I remember when they raided his house. This is when warez4all and warez4cable was going on on mirc and all that, chris is a damn good guy and chris should not have been convicted at all I feel. This was done before the days of copyright infringement and the Riaa everyone was on mirc and everyone did it back then is all just some done it more than others the fact is also this was all done over 56k back then with shotgun modems and isdn cause we didnt have high speed in our town back then. Yes ive known chris for many years in fact actually just last weekend went and watched him race his dragster and hes son also. This should not be at all I feel. what happened to the court system in america ill tell ya its out of the window for sure, nothing is fair in the us anymore at all you will be convicted of something before youre charged nowdays even if there is no laws back then yes this sucks. And all I can do is go by his house and wish him and his wife and kid the best of luck is all. Its a shame when someone can kill someone and get less time for that than for sharing something I say piss on the riaa and doj im sure they have done something bad in there life but i dont feel this desires a felony for sure.

 

[Rembrandt]

I own one of those GoVideo dual tape machines.

 

[Plumber4life]

lol

 

[sfsuphysics]

we all agree to the terms when we install software on our computers and we should all know by now we don’t own that software, only the right to use it as licensed.

Do we? How many people have honestly read through the entire Windows XX EULA? Or any other EULA software comes with. Time will come when EULA are ruled against simply because the act of buying an item used to mean something, you don't buy a license.. and oh yah here's a free coaster that the program comes with.

My third and most annoying gripe is this: Only 50 people have been busted so far? How can the DOJ and the RIAA be so totally incompetent?

Scary thing is the way you linked those two organizations together, one is a legal entity of the United States of America, the other is a private corporation. Both of which damn well better never have the same level of power to go after pirates.

They can’t get thousands of IP addresses by joining a Bit Torrent or two? I mean face it; there is damn little legal data to be had on any Torrent site. If most of us already know which IRC sites not only permit rooms to be named “warez” they actually encourage it then why doesn’t the DOJ?

What makes you think they dont? Its most like a matter of wasting thousands upon thousand of dollars to put together a case against someone who stole a few hundred dollars worth of software/music/whatever. I for one am glad the DoJ doesn't waste time on that.

Btw, I'm not condoning piracy at all.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Just like the last poster I agree 100%. I have known chris since them days and also worked with him I remember when they raided his house. This is when warez4all and warez4cable was going on on mirc and all that, chris is a damn good guy and chris should not have been convicted at all I feel. This was done before the days of copyright infringement and the Riaa everyone was on mirc and everyone did it back then is all just some done it more than others the fact is also this was all done over 56k back then with shotgun modems and isdn cause we didnt have high speed in our town back then. Yes ive known chris for many years in fact actually just last weekend went and watched him race his dragster and hes son also. This should not be at all I feel. what happened to the court system in america ill tell ya its out of the window for sure, nothing is fair in the us anymore at all you will be convicted of something before youre charged nowdays even if there is no laws back then yes this sucks. And all I can do is go by his house and wish him and his wife and kid the best of luck is all. Its a shame when someone can kill someone and get less time for that than for sharing something I say piss on the riaa and doj im sure they have done something bad in there life but i dont feel this desires a felony for sure.

Chris (Eaves) = Pirate of commercial copywritten software
Chris = Pirate of copywritten video, audio, and other intellectual property

There is 0% possible way you can claim that he was not committing a crime.
There is 0% possible way you can claim that he did not know what he is doing is wrong.

He is a CRIMINAL. I am not talking about the "criminal" who rips his own music cd's, or the "casual" guy who burns a copy dreamweaver for a friend to use. (not that it's any better) He was part of a CONCERTED effort to MASS distribute (I've seen his "products" before)

You say this was done before the days of copyright infringement. So, he did this, what, over 100 years ago? (Copyright has been around since 1886)

Complaining about the inconsistencies in the legal system does not change the fact that this man is a criminal.

Should he get 50 years when a murderer gets 5? No. But should he walk away scott free for ripping people off en masse? HELL NO.

 

[willyspuddle]

He kinda sounds like the fictional character Robin Hood. Clearly doing something illegal, and yet loved and adourned by the common folk he helped.

Cheers!

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

He's been doing this for how long and they can only get him on ONE count?

Not that I'm condoning his actions, but dude is slick.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

He's been doing this for how long and they can only get him on ONE count?

Not that I'm condoning his actions, but dude is slick.

5 years + 250K fine. How many counts do they need to get him on?
Don't you think he'll get the message with that?
Do you think that in 2012 when he's released, he'll go right back to warezing?

 

[charpman]

It is all quite interesting to me.

Unlike some, I can find a rationalization for piracy, at least of a certain type. I'm not talking about distribution, at that point you cross the line. But for private use? I think it depends on the situation and the new reality of the nature of the material being pirated.

Unlike material goods, "theft" of digital "products" does not deny the original owner the possession of them. They have in effect lost nothing. One can argue they lost increased revenues from the theft, but again I'd say that depends on the situation, and only applies if the alternative only meant a purchase. Often it doesn't.

When I was just out of college Lightwave and 3DStudio Max were all the rage. But like many I couldn't even come close to affording either of them. If I had a pirate copy then I wasn't taking money away from anyone since without it I would not have been spending the money to buy it. By having a pirated copy, I learned about it, talked about it, encouraged those who did have money to purchase it for thier needs. All said in the end I probably put more money into the hands of the owners of the product than had I not had a pirated copy.

This applies to quite a lot of software I think. There are real world benefits to be had by using software you may not be able to afford and quite often the companies who own the software end up better off.

Obviously not always. Just saying it's not quite black and white to me.

Another example of a rational argument for me is music. In the days before iTunes and the sub $1 song I had pretty much quit buying music all together. I had grown tired of being forced to buy an entire CD to get a single song I wanted. For awhile I just didn't listen to any "new" music. Then came the age of Napster and Bittorrent and I did grab my share of music. But it often sucked. And quickly I came to the conculsion that even paying $20 for an entire CD to get a single song I wanted was a better use of my time than wading through all the crap trying to get a decent version of a song. Also, I was making far more money than I ever had before.

Even now in the iTunes age they still pull shady crap, at least to me....Restricting the one popular song that everyone wants to being only available if you buy the entire album. At least the album cost is down to sub $10.... but if it was EASY to go grab the song illegally I'd probably do it just over the philisophical issue I have with that particular tactic of restricting purchase of certain songs. Alas, bittorrent is still a waste of time for me, or rather my income is such that my time is worth more.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

It is all quite interesting to me.

Unlike some, I can find a rationalization for piracy, at least of a certain type. I'm not talking about distribution, at that point you cross the line. But for private use? I think it depends on the situation and the new reality of the nature of the material being pirated.

Your "rationalization" works on the premise that you have some sort of entitlement to use lightwave and 3dstudiomax. 3dstudio had a FREE alternative (Gmax I believe?). This is no different than the belief that it's "ok" to warez photoshop cause all you are using it for is making graphics for your myspace page. Just because you don't profit from it, doesn't mean it's not still theft.

Unlike material goods, "theft" of digital "products" does not deny the original owner the possession of them. They have in effect lost nothing. One can argue they lost increased revenues from the theft, but again I'd say that depends on the situation, and only applies if the alternative only meant a purchase. Often it doesn't.

Adobe sells photoshop, and photoshop academic.. if you can pirate photoshop why would you buy photoshop academic?

When I was just out of college Lightwave and 3DStudio Max were all the rage. But like many I couldn't even come close to affording either of them.

If you were just out of college, and not employed at a company that needed you to use lightwave and 3dstudio max, why did you need them? You obviously weren't making any money (if you couldn't afford them) so, why did you need them?

If I had a pirate copy then I wasn't taking money away from anyone since without it I would not have been spending the money to buy it.

I don't see it this way. You didn't work hard enough to earn the money to buy it because you didn't have to. If you -needed- it, and you -COULDN'T- pirate it, you would have -FOUND- a way to pay for it, or done without. SO, therefore, you -WERE- taking money from the hands of developers.

By having a pirated copy, I learned about it, talked about it, encouraged those who did have money to purchase it for thier needs.

Do as I say, not as I do, hmmm?

All said in the end I probably put more money into the hands of the owners of the product than had I not had a pirated copy.

Doubtful. The legit users who purchased it would have purchased it anyhow.

This applies to quite a lot of software I think.

You are correct, most commercial software, if not all, has someone rationalizing the theft of it.

There are real world benefits to be had by using software you may not be able to afford and quite often the companies who own the software end up better off.

Please explain to me how adobe benefits from you using their software and not paying for it?


There have always been academic editions.

When *I* went to college, my roommate would pirate and considered the reason why he couldn't afford it because he was poor, yet, every weekend, he somehow found the money to go out drinking and partying. If he can drop $100 at a bar, he can drop $300 at a school bookstore.

 

[Fooshnik]

Most all of your posts are too long and virtually no one is going to read them.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Most all of your posts are too long and virtually no one is going to read them.


Just my 2 cents.

Most all of your posts are irrelevant and nobody is going to read them.

 

[Plumber4life]

Well the only thing that bothers me with this, they made him seem bigger than he was i am not condoning this at all cause everyone has done it, at said time right or am i wrong. I myself ponder back to them days i spent on 56k with chris at his house and so forth being connected endlessly to download 20 meg a hr on 56k for days on end. I feel myself the Doj has made hime bigger than he actually is. He didnt hack in to nasa he is not kevin mitnick at all he was a guy who downloaded and shared mostly like everyone else did back then, come on now 56k how much could you share 20 meg a hr max if lucky with a damn good 56k connection. I myself had isdn back then, I myself have alot of software i have bought, i myself have alot of crap cds why cause they charged me 15 something like other posters said for a cd for one crap cd with one good song. I myself am all for downloading but for a reasonable price then i get to pick and choose which in turn is a good thing. Chris knew what he was doing like everybody else back then, he was just a unlucky one that got caught is all, everyone knows its wrong now days and thats all what matters. But up until this all went down no one belived it would happen this was the first in the ever going battles with file sharing and so forth and now he has to pay. I myself since then have bought all my software and cds, I payed for a volume liscense of xp just so i could install over and over on my same machine with out having to call microsoft and still use it today. Chris will pay and will come out ok in the end im sure. But all in all this just means if you do something wrong on the net, you just never know who is looking over ya shoulder is all, and you better be a little tech savy.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Well the only thing that bothers me with this, they made him seem bigger than he was i am not condoning this at all cause everyone has done it, at said time right or am i wrong. I myself ponder back to them days i spent on 56k with chris at his house and so forth being connected endlessly to download 20 meg a hr on 56k for days on end. I feel myself the Doj has made hime bigger than he actually is. He didnt hack in to nasa he is not kevin mitnick at all he was a guy who downloaded and shared mostly like everyone else did back then, come on now 56k how much could you share 20 meg a hr max if lucky with a damn good 56k connection. I myself had isdn back then, I myself have alot of software i have bought, i myself have alot of crap cds why cause they charged me 15 something like other posters said for a cd for one crap cd with one good song. I myself am all for downloading but for a reasonable price then i get to pick and choose which in turn is a good thing. Chris knew what he was doing like everybody else back then, he was just a unlucky one that got caught is all, everyone knows its wrong now days and thats all what matters. But up until this all went down no one belived it would happen this was the first in the ever going battles with file sharing and so forth and now he has to pay. I myself since then have bought all my software and cds, I payed for a volume liscense of xp just so i could install over and over on my same machine with out having to call microsoft and still use it today. Chris will pay and will come out ok in the end im sure. But all in all this just means if you do something wrong on the net, you just never know who is looking over ya shoulder is all, and you better be a little tech savy.

No, you are downplaying his role. He was a key member of apocolypse crew, which was a MAJOR distributor of "Warez". He was not just "some guy who downloaded a copy of photoshop" he was some guy who gave it to 400,000 people!.

 

[Plumber4life]

Ya know how can you say that ? Was you there no you was not, A couple of people were there first hand and know what went on. It wasnt that way at all thats why i say he was a scapegoat. I can suffice to say some know where how who and what can you not at all. We all know where he learned the ways at that time and it was not even close to that at all. For fucking jeezus christ back then we only had 56k in our town so tell me how he shared so much the facts are he did not share like the DOJ said at all that much, no full fledged server no nothing no website at all. He took a plea I can guarantee you that for sure but that is not going to come out at all in this case all what matters is the conviction to the DOJ. Cyber one thing I will say to you is if you no nothing of the situation or first hand experience of what happened STFU its people like you stir more shit than they can dish out you know nothing you was not there. This was a messed up time for other people also wondering what was next to come. So unless you know the facts or anything else stfu and I can guarantee he had nothing to do with apocolypse at all, that was the dept of DOJ representation of him it was not like that at all. It was more like someone sharing over bittorrent, limewire,napster and so forth and getting caught downloading some songs and some apps having been caught and being in the first fifty that day is what DOJ case is about making a statement is what this is all about for them, I will say it was more like granny in new jersey downloading some songs and getting caught is all, not like the mass amount the DOJ have stated at all. I will back this guy in everything and not you or nobody else will change my position on this at all. Was you in the room that night no you was not neither was i, i was working but i got the call the minute they got to his house. Yes what he done was wrong, yes there was copyright but we all know the first fifty or few is where the impact of this comes in in hopes to persuade less people in doing this. Do you think thats going to change it i dont, do you think people are gonna stop cause of the DOJ or Riaa, actually i think they gave more publicity to the situation and hurt it more than anything by doing all of this. Everybody knows where the most of the stuff comes from and where the most copyright infringement and pirating is done and its not in the US.

 

[moetop]

No we wernt there, but he was the one that plead guilty. Why plead guilty if you didnt do anything?

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Ya know how can you say that ? Was you there no you was not,

When you can't even spell or use proper grammar in most of your argument, the strength of your argument is weakened. People whose speech seems uneducated turn out to seem uneducated.


Why don't you actually read the article? He admitted to his crimes. It doesn't say "Eaves admits he downloaded photoshop once"

Eaves acknowledged that he was a leading member in the illegal software, game, movie, and music trade online, commonly referred to as the "warez" scene, the DOJ said. Eaves was an active member of the Apocalypse Crew, a group that acted as a first provider of copyrighted music to the Internet by serving as the original source for many of the pirated works distributed and downloaded online, the DOJ said.

He was a LEADING member, so he was a big head honcho in the group.

Operation FastLink ....has resulted in ....removal of more than $50 million worth of software, games, movies, and music from illegal distribution channels.

The operation removed 50 MILLION DOLLARS worth of pirated stuff. He was part of that spread. He was not just some guy. He was a spear-header of the group.

Your friend, who you act as if he's being victimized, ADMITTED TO IT.

Everybody knows where the most of the stuff comes from and where the most copyright infringement and pirating is done and its not in the US

His "crew" released over 400 titles that I can find from a basic search. I don't want to go to the websites those searches would lead me to, because "warez" sites tend to be virally laden.

His crew was a MASS DISTRIBUTOR OF PIRATED MATERIAL.
He was a LEADING MEMBER of the crew. I don't know what alias he went by in the group. What was his member name? I know ABOUT the warez scene, but I do not partake in it. I used to see 'warez' all the time when I was taking on the role as basic grunt in my company and was removing pirated apps, music, etc from client computers that were virally infected. Their abbreviation was APC was it not? I'm sure i've seen "somesong-apc.mp3" on more than one occassion.


George S. Hayes, Arthur Gomez, Sergey Ribiakost, Mark Shumaker, Derek Borchardt, Matt Howard, Aaron Jones, are more members of the ORGANIZED CRIME GROUP that have plead guilty to these charges. SO, you've got at least 8 convictions JUST from APC alone. So, it's not a casual activity.

So.. we've got 50 convictions, and 50 million dollars worth of pirated material.
8 out of 50 of those convictions, I've already verified, are from APC MEMBERS.
So, statistically speaking, those members are responsible for at least 8 MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF THEFT.


Instead of you telling me what I do or do not know, why don't you do some research yourself? Could it not be possible that since you were friends with the guy (and that stands to reason, a benefactor of his warez'ing) you are a little biased? There's this great resource you can use to find out information that you don't know about. It's called the internet. I suggest you use it for something other than pirating and telling people that your
friend didn't do anything wrong.

Start here

Let me restate this for you :

He was a LEAD MEMBER of a MAJOR PIRACY GROUP. This "operation fastlink" which has lead to 50 convictions, at least 8 of them are HIS GROUP. If I spent another 5 minutes researching (since that's all it took to find out that they've had over 400 releases, 8 convictions, etc..) I could probably show you even more damning evidence.

He is not just some guy who uploaded a movie screener, or a single album, or a single software program, he, and his group, did this on a MASSIVE EFFORT resulting in MILLIONS OF DOLLARS worth of stolen property being "digitally fenced".

 

[Manaknight]

He kinda sounds like the fictional character Robin Hood. Clearly doing something illegal, and yet loved and adourned by the common folk he helped.

Cheers!

and thats just it, so many of you pull this criminal stuff...so what? what if the laws are wrong? does that make him a criminal in the eyes of a corrupt state or affiliation? yes, but how many stories, both contemporary or folk, but the hero in the same situation.

yeah so he helped mass distribute stuff, maybe this is a sign that its time to re-evaluate things on the other end, because if a mass distribution is needed, clearly the people are unhappy with the way things are done

i have always fully believed that if a normal guy can outsmart the big rich corporation then more power to him, i mean the riaa/mpaa/*whatever the software one is called i can't think of it* wouldn't think twice about tricking or extorting from you and taking your money, so score one for the little guy. Remember nowadays its only wrong if the big corporation or money making agent is the one that loses.

i'll end with the only good thing from pirates of the carribean

he only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

In all honesty I find it amusing that so many of us are going to be all fire and brimstone over something like this. Because in the same breath, we think nothing of our own piracy and petty theft. And some of you know exactly what I'm talking about:

- recording off the radio
- owning two VCRs so you could record the copies you rented from your local video store
- Recording off of PVR/DVR machines and just dumping it onto your PC to burn to a DVD.
- Borrowing a DVD from a friend/neighbor/family member and 'forgetting' to return it.
- downloading game ROMS and holding onto them longer than the 24 hour period if you don't own the actual game and/or the console they are on
- 'Borrowing' a cigarette at someone else's expense and not even giving them anything for it. (Dude, I don't even smoke and I think a pack of them gets expensive!)
- Making a copy of any VHS/audio cassette/CD/DVD you own for a friend and calling it your 'legitimate backup'
.
The list could go on forever. But the bottom line is, whatever we stand guilty of, I think very few of us here would have the balls to be up front and admit to it. Me? I've got a ticket for doing 83 in a 70. No it's not theft, but it's something I'm guilty of. And yet, no one was all fire and brimstone over my speeding, despite the fact that I could've seriously hurt myself or others around me on the road. And yet, some guy goes to jail for five years and has to pull a quarter million out of his ass for mass distributing stuff, and it's like the guy's image (or what's left of it) is stomped through the ground like he's a registered sex offender. And to be honest, I call bullshit on anyone here who says that they have not performed any kind of petty theft or piracy in their entire life. When you walk away with a pen that isn't yours that was handed to you by someone else, especially a place of business, that's petty theft right there. But no one raised hell over you taking the cashier's pen.

But, whatever. It's just a forum in the end.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

In all honesty I find it amusing that so many of us are going to be all fire and brimstone over something like this. Because in the same breath, we think nothing of our own piracy and petty theft. And some of you know exactly what I'm talking about:

Speak for yourself

- recording off the radio

As per the AHRA, Legal, unless you sell it, because you aren't "circumventing" copy protection

The Act also includes blanket protection from infringement actions for private, non-commercial analog audio copying, and for digital audio copies made with digital audio recording devices.

owning two VCRs so you could record the copies you rented from your local video store

You are making that concept way more complex than it would need to be, and, if you aren't using a macrovision descrambler, you also fall under the permits of the AHRA (and aren't selling it, or rebroadcasting for money, etc..)

- Recording off of PVR/DVR machines and just dumping it onto your PC to burn to a DVD.

Why would someone need to do that? I can legally do that with a microsoft operating system + extension called Windows Media Center. Do you really think microsoft is going to implement a system by which you can record tv programs, and burn them to DVD, in their OWN SOFTWARE that is illegal?

- Borrowing a DVD from a friend/neighbor/family member and 'forgetting' to return it.

This sounds more like theft than piracy? Or did you mean sticking that DVD into a computer and using DVDShrink too?

- downloading game ROMS and holding onto them longer than the 24 hour period if you don't own the actual game and/or the console they are on

uhm.. huh? Wow.. oldschool. Why not just rip your own? Also, depending on what nation you downloaded them from, or are in, that's not illegal anyhow.

- 'Borrowing' a cigarette at someone else's expense and not even giving them anything for it.

What the FUCK does this have to do with piracy? Oh, and everyone knows when you say "can I bum a cigarette off you" it's a one way street.. wtf world do you live in?

- Making a copy of any VHS/audio cassette/CD/DVD you own for a friend and calling it your 'legitimate backup'

who bothers to do this anymore? Netflix / blockbuster online is HELLA cheap (I get ~50 movies a month, one video game, and 15 boxes of candy from blockbuster, for $25 a month)

And to be honest, I call bullshit on anyone here who says that they have not performed any kind of petty theft or piracy in their entire life.

Then call bullshit on me. I've never pirated a piece of software in my life. I've never stolen anything in my life, and I've been homeless. I had an opportunity to STEAL a bicycle from someone (I had gotten a job that would have meant I'd need a bike) @ a garage sale while homeless (he went inside with a buyer of something, and I was the only person outside) But, instead, I waited for him to return, and told him my story, and he GAVE it to me, with the "when you get on your feet, make sure someone who needs help gets it" logic. Because I didn't do a 'wrong' I was treated to a 'right' Just because you think nothing of petty or major theft doesn't mean everyone thinks like you.

When you walk away with a pen that isn't yours that was handed to you by someone else, especially a place of business, that's petty theft right there. But no one raised hell over you taking the cashier's pen

If someone gives you something and you leave with it, that doesn't necessarily constitute theft. Business have those pens as a form of advertising. We go through 1000s of pens a year, not because they dry out, but because we put them "on display" for people to take and use. That's the general consensus of what they are for. Now, snapping that bank pen with the chain off is another story..

But, whatever. It's just a forum in the end.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

And yet it still comes down to taking something that isn't yours, and something you didn't pay for. I don't care what the AHRA says, it still is what it is, whether or not a law says it's okay. Getting drunk or high is still getting drunk or high, whether the use of alcohol or the drug of choice is legal. My examples were just pointing out that things get taken, stolen, pirated, whatever you want to call it, all the damn time. It's nothing new.

And by the way, not all businesses have pens with their company logo on it. I know because I work at such a company who supplies pens to their workers, and yet they are devoid of any company logo unless you count the manufacturer's name. The only advertising being done then, is for the manufacturer. If that's what you meant, then so be it.

The last statement meant exactly that - say what you will, because it doesn't change that things are taken all the time and yet no one screams bloody murder over them. Say what you want to, because I really don't care. You're on a forum on the internet. Get fired up about it like you already are. It means nothing to me. I'm just saying that I don't think it's right to be all hip hip hooray over this when there are much bigger issues that have gone unresolved.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

And yet it still comes down to taking something that isn't yours, and something you didn't pay for. I don't care what the AHRA says, it still is what it is, whether or not a law says it's okay. Getting drunk or high is still getting drunk or high, whether the use of alcohol or the drug of choice is legal. My examples were just pointing out that things get taken, stolen, pirated, whatever you want to call it, all the damn time. It's nothing new.

Uhm, if it's legal, then what is the problem? Marijuana is legal in parts of europe, so, that's not a crime.. Getting drunk is legal in the US. Driving Drunk is not. There's nothing WRONG with getting drunk. In fact, ALCOHOL is used as a religious symbol in MOST faiths! So, if booze is so bad, why do churches use it? (not that any faith I've experienced had any idea what morality really is about)


Recording music of the radio is legal in the US, selling it is not.
It's not "Wrong" to "record" music on the radio. There are many things that aren't "Wrong" that are illegal none the less.
It's not theft, taking, stealing, pirating if the law allows it. Duh?

This is not a question of "Morality" this is a question of LEGALITY. We are talking about CRIMES, not SINS.

Did you ever see a picture of <you choose : liz hurley, julia roberts, catherine zeta jones, "J.Lo" > and say "Ooh, I want to fuck her?" Well, that'd be a sin, since, last I checked, those women are or were married, so a popular religious book would consider that a sin (though shalt not covet thy neighbors wife) and if you actually DID, that'd be another sin.

Is it legal, or even, nowadays, even considered ACCEPTABLE to think that way? Hell yes. Being attracted to a married woman, is commonplace.. It's wrong, but not illegal. Only acting on it is illegal.

 

[charpman]

and thats just it, so many of you pull this criminal stuff...so what? what if the laws are wrong? does that make him a criminal in the eyes of a corrupt state or affiliation? yes, but how many stories, both contemporary or folk, but the hero in the same situation.

yeah so he helped mass distribute stuff, maybe this is a sign that its time to re-evaluate things on the other end, because if a mass distribution is needed, clearly the people are unhappy with the way things are done

i have always fully believed that if a normal guy can outsmart the big rich corporation then more power to him, i mean the riaa/mpaa/*whatever the software one is called i can't think of it* wouldn't think twice about tricking or extorting from you and taking your money, so score one for the little guy. Remember nowadays its only wrong if the big corporation or money making agent is the one that loses.

i'll end with the only good thing from pirates of the carribean

he only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.

A big and growing part of me says "indeed" to this. Afterall, everyday there is a new scandal reported, people bilked out of thier homes, savings etc. while the top dogs in these companies pocket billions and get appointed ambassadorships for thier efforts (Ameriquest Mortgage). When the corporate model is to screw the consumer and run with the money how can expect a different attitude from the masses??

Increasingly I am disapointed by my ethics and which I was half as immoral as these folks, then I'd have my own jet, island etc...... sigh...

 

[charpman]

Uhm, if it's legal, then what is the problem? Marijuana is legal in parts of europe, so, that's not a crime.. Getting drunk is legal in the US. Driving Drunk is not. There's nothing WRONG with getting drunk. In fact, ALCOHOL is used as a religious symbol in MOST faiths! So, if booze is so bad, why do churches use it? (not that any faith I've experienced had any idea what morality really is about)


Recording music of the radio is legal in the US, selling it is not.
It's not "Wrong" to "record" music on the radio. There are many things that aren't "Wrong" that are illegal none the less.
It's not theft, taking, stealing, pirating if the law allows it. Duh?

This is not a question of "Morality" this is a question of LEGALITY. We are talking about CRIMES, not SINS.

Did you ever see a picture of <you choose : liz hurley, julia roberts, catherine zeta jones, "J.Lo" > and say "Ooh, I want to fuck her?" Well, that'd be a sin, since, last I checked, those women are or were married, so a popular religious book would consider that a sin (though shalt not covet thy neighbors wife) and if you actually DID, that'd be another sin.

Is it legal, or even, nowadays, even considered ACCEPTABLE to think that way? Hell yes. Being attracted to a married woman, is commonplace.. It's wrong, but not illegal. Only acting on it is illegal.

You are correct, and that's part of the problem. All too often, especially with the current political climate, there is a strong association between legality and morality. I've always rebeled against authority and never seen it this way. If anything, I have found making things illegal is quite immoral, since so many things in this "free" society of ours are illegal. Consensual crimes anyone?

What every one needs to realize is that there really is no relationship between our laws and our moarlity. The laws are made by a bunch of corrupt overpaid tax exempt fools detached from any sense of reality. I can't buy cold products wiht pseudoephidrine (sp?) wihtout being tracked because someone thought meth dealers don't have enough time to visit multiple pharmacies in a day???? /boggle

I think alot of the laws on IP are outdated and will have to change soon.

 

[Hvatum]

That sucks.

To think that my tax payer dollars are going to go to house and feed this guy while he's being non productive for five years, and then probably subsidize his children's education because he won't have saved money for their college education makes me really sick. (The fine goes to the RIAA or whomever, not the government).

Not to be a cynic, but stop and think for a moment. We've got Russia and China, two countries who's economies are nothing less then based upon "theft" of intellectual property. Arresting a few crews in the US who did it in their free time for fun is about as realistic as arresting the corner crack slinger and saying you've accomplished a major step forward in the war on drugs. If they were serious about addressing intellectual property theft then we'd take a hard look across our shores. It's just like the "war on drugs," idiotic arrests like this are nothing more then a publicity stunt which an idiot can see past.

 

[Langly]

Most all of your posts are irrelevant and nobody is going to read them.

After I read your first post and skimmed your second... I stopped reading yours because you are a broken record.

To think that my tax payer dollars are going to go to house and feed this guy while he's being non productive for five years, and then probably subsidize his children's education because he won't have saved money for their college education makes me really sick. (The fine goes to the RIAA or whomever, not the government).

Not to be a cynic, but stop and think for a moment. We've got Russia and China, two countries who's economies are nothing less then based upon "theft" of intellectual property. Arresting a few crews in the US who did it in their free time for fun is about as realistic as arresting the corner crack slinger and saying you've accomplished a major step forward in the war on drugs. If they were serious about addressing intellectual property theft then we'd take a hard look across our shores. It's just like the "war on drugs," idiotic arrests like this are nothing more then a publicity stunt which an idiot can see past.

This guy has great stuff to say. I dont care about catching pirates, you can't stop it. I want my tax dollars to go to places it needs to go.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

After I read your first post and skimmed your second... I stopped reading yours because you are a broken record.

This guy has great stuff to say. I dont care about catching pirates, you can't stop it. I want my tax dollars to go to places it needs to go.

You can't really stop murder, rape, drugs, or robbery either, if you don't have federal officials working to do so...

The war on drugs will never be won.. So, should we just stop fighting that, too?

Oh, and considering my taxes this past year are probably double your gross income, I just have to say I don't mind them being used to put criminals in jail. I do mind them being used on $1900 hammers, and political luncheons, and jumbo jets to fly our president around, but using my tax dollars to prosecute criminals? I'm fine with that.

 

[matrix563]

Oh, and considering my taxes this past year are probably double your gross income, I just have to say I don't mind them being used to put criminals in jail. I do mind them being used on $1900 hammers, and political luncheons, and jumbo jets to fly our president around, but using my tax dollars to prosecute criminals? I'm fine with that.

the fact is, i've never heard of Apocalypse Crew, but i have heard of diamond, rns, etc etc.

this is just a publicity stunt. if everyone was arrested who downloaded stuff, i'm sure half the population of the USA, not to mention THE WORLD, would be behind bars. i have no fact or figures, but really, download a song, get sued? i'm sure half the world would for at least one minor copyright infringment at some point.

so this is just a publicity stunt. 50 people? whoa? no?

those $1900 hammers, political luncheons, and jumbo jets to fly our officials around will never end

in the end, its just 1's and 0's. if anyone, the Arab's should be suing

 

[charpman]

The war on drugs will never be won.. So, should we just stop fighting that, too?

quote]

Yes. Plain and simple. Drug use is a consensual act. Why is it illegal? You can never prevent a society from attaining what it wants. And ours has clearly spoken on drugs. It wants them.

Legalize them. Plain and simple. Remove the massive illegal profits. End the gangs, End the kiling. Treat them like booze and smokes, regulate it, tax it like everything else, have plenty of cash for rehab programs, and even paying down the debt.

the problem is all those crooked politiicans agains loosing out on thier share of the illegal cash flow....

Why would you want to spend billions arresting and jailing people who's only real crime was to answer the demand in a given market segment? People who murder etc are still on the hook for those crimes, the motivation shouldn't matter - though we do have hate crimes, but that's another posting!

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Yes. Plain and simple. Drug use is a consensual act. Why is it illegal? You can never prevent a society from attaining what it wants. And ours has clearly spoken on drugs. It wants them.

I don't remember consenting to a crack whore living on my street corner, turning tricks,
and busting into cars to steal valuables to support her crack habit. (hypothetically)

I also don't remember to consenting to drug mules with balloons filled with cocaine stuffed up their ass illegally crossing our borders

I don't remember consenting to the 1000s of examples of drug related crime.

Drug use might be consensual the first time... but not necessarily later.

Legalize them. Plain and simple. Remove the massive illegal profits. End the gangs, End the kiling.

Because even where drugs are illegal, there is no such thing as drug related crime, right?

Treat them like booze and smokes, regulate it, tax it like everything else, have plenty of cash for rehab programs, and even paying down the debt.

Like the extra influx will be used for debt leveraging.

the problem is all those crooked politiicans agains loosing out on thier share of the illegal cash flow....

The only reason why marijuana is illegal in this country is because of the cotton industry.
Research it, you'll find out what I am talking about.

Why would you want to spend billions arresting and jailing people who's only real crime was to answer the demand in a given market segment? People who murder etc are still on the hook for those crimes, the motivation shouldn't matter - though we do have hate crimes, but that's another posting!

A good percentage of our criminal justice system is about preventing crimes in the first place. Another good percentage is about preventing RE-OCCURANCE.

If "Cholo" drive-by's some kids house because he was slinging rock in his hood, and you put cholo away for life, cholo won't driveby anybody else.
Yes, there WILL be someone to replace him, I know, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't even try.

Personally, I'm not for necessarily jailing everyone. I think capital punishment in some cases should be increased (and quickened). That doesn't mean death penalty per-se, but rapist ? Castration seems in order.

 

[charpman]

I don't remember consenting to a crack whore living on my street corner, turning tricks,
and busting into cars to steal valuables to support her crack habit. (hypothetically)

I also don't remember to consenting to drug mules with balloons filled with cocaine stuffed up their ass illegally crossing our borders

I don't remember consenting to the 1000s of examples of drug related crime.

Drug use might be consensual the first time... but not necessarily later.



Because even where drugs are illegal, there is no such thing as drug related crime, right?

Okay, so we need to start at the begining with defining what a consensual crime is. Quite simply put it is a crime where the only people involved CONSENTED. The very notion of such a thing as a consensual crime shold be anathema to a free society. Every such occurance of a consensual crime is an attempt to legislate moraity and every attempt failes utterly at the cost of innocent lives and billions of dollars.

None of your examples have anythng to do with you or are not examplse of consensual acts. Breaking into a car is theft and is not consensual unless you agreed to let someone do it. Prostitution is a good example of a consensual crime. Both parties are consenting adults in agreement. Why is this a crime. And since you like to go to extremes, OBVIOUSLY I'm not talking about child protstitution--- remember the key is consensual and under the law, children can't consent.

Sure if drugs were legal there may still be some "drug related crmes" but they's sure be alot less than they are now. More on par with alchol related crimes, or tabbaco related crimes. Take the money out, take the sting out.

And in the end, what does it matter the root cuase of the crime? Drug related, hate related, alchol related or just pissed at my old lady related? Once you cross the line and commit a crime, the why's of it seldom matter. What I'm gettng at is you'll never erradicate crime. At best you can reduce it. And if you take the billions of illegal money out of drugs you remove one hell of a lot of crime.

How that money is used when legitimate companies are now the drug supplies, well that's entirely different, I only listed debt paydown as a possiblity. Most likely it would land in some CEO's pocket as a bonus! But I suppose that's better than propping up drug cartels no??

I agree about the origins of pot being illegal, but most today think it's because "drugs are bad". And the same "logic" is applied to all drugs except the ones big pharma sells, then it's aokay to advertise them without even telling us what they do! "go ask your doctor if you need drug X today!!!" Drug free my ass....

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Sure if drugs were legal there may still be some "drug related crmes" but they's sure be alot less than they are now. More on par with alchol related crimes, or tabbaco related crimes. Take the money out, take the sting out.

And in the end, what does it matter the root cuase of the crime? Drug related, hate related, alchol related or just pissed at my old lady related? Once you cross the line and commit a crime, the why's of it seldom matter. What I'm gettng at is you'll never erradicate crime. At best you can reduce it. And if you take the billions of illegal money out of drugs you remove one hell of a lot of crime.

Because drugs such as marijuana, coke, X, heroin remove the moral compass of a person who might not normally have committed rape, murder, robbery.. etc.

Just like booze does, the difference is, booze isn't illegal unless you are under age, driving, or publicly intoxicated.

This is not a debate whether drugs SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be illegal. This is a debate as to "since it's illegal, should we try to stop it" I say yes on drugs. I say yes on piracy.

You think we should not only make piracy not prosecuted, and drugs not prosecuted, but you think they should both be decriminalized. If that is your opinion, you need to vote for people who will make that a reality, not debate whether it should or should not be so. Since it -IS- so, the only debate is should we, or should we not do something about ENFORCING the laws that have been set forth. Until such day that there is no law protecting intellectual property, I will say that I am for enforcing these laws.
When such a day comes about that there are no laws protecting intellectual property, you will IMMEDIATELY see a SIGNIFICANT reduction in innovation. People don't come up with ideas to improve upon something or do something new just for the betterment of society.. they do it to make MONEY. When you can't make money writing software anymore, nobody will do so. There aren't enough open source, linux geeks to support the needs of the planet. Somebody has to get paid.