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Still no triple buffering for D3D?

G

Geolith

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
311
My question is simple: Do I still need D3DOverrider to force triple buffering in D3D games (which don't have native triple buffering option)?
 
No, if you force VSync through the Nvidia control panel, you get triple buffering. Don't know how it is with AMD.
 
Didn't know Nvidia could force it(are you sure it's just not for OpenGL like AMD?), but AMD still needs third party hardware. I really wish I could understand why game makers have overlooked this for the most part.
 
Yes, I'm sure. Do you have an example of a game that doesn't support TB on its own? Then I could check it again. I always force vsync through the driver and override what the game wants. I got used to doing it this way years ago and ever since I have never ever witnessed the 60->30fps drop.
 
boxleitnerb said:
No, if you force VSync through the Nvidia control panel, you get triple buffering. Don't know how it is with AMD.
Click to expand...

Are you sure we are on the same page here? I'm talking about forcing triple buffering in D3D games, while NVIDIA control panel forces it only in OpenGL games. Unless my info is outdated (that's what I'm trying to find out).
 
Goodcoin said:
Are you sure we are on the same page here? I'm talking about forcing triple buffering in D3D games, while NVIDIA control panel forces it only in OpenGL games. Unless my info is outdated (that's what I'm trying to find out).
Click to expand...

Yes, sure. The separate triple buffering option is for OpenGL, yes. But you get automatic triple buffering when forcing vsync in D3D. Do you know of a game that doesn't support TB on its own?
 
boxleitnerb said:
Yes, sure. The separate triple buffering option is for OpenGL, yes. But you get automatic triple buffering when forcing vsync in D3D. Do you know of a game that doesn't support TB on its own?
Click to expand...

Wow, that's great news, then.

There are loads of games with no ways to enable TB on their own. I can give you quick list from the games currently installed on my system:

Medal of Honor (2010)
Trine 2
Portal
Red Faction: Guerrilla
Metro 2033
Team Fortress 2

In fact, the only game with a native option to enable TB I was able to find among my installed games was Hard Reset.
 
If you read the descriptions in the CP, notice it doesn't say OpenGL only?
 
bigdogchris said:
If you read the descriptions in the CP, notice it doesn't say OpenGL only?
Click to expand...

The triple buffer description in the CP doesn't say anything about OpenGL or D3D. Who cares what it says, anyway? The fact is that I was unable to enable triple buffering in non-supporting D3D games without D3DOverrider. But that was quite a long time ago.
 
Curious if there is a definitive answer here as well. I've been using D3DOverrider for years now (set it to start with Windows boot) but am about to build a new system and am curious if it is still necessary, note that I plan on using adaptive Vsync via NVidia drivers going forward.
 
Goodcoin said:
Wow, that's great news, then.

There are loads of games with no ways to enable TB on their own. I can give you quick list from the games currently installed on my system:

Medal of Honor (2010)
Trine 2
Portal
Red Faction: Guerrilla
Metro 2033
Team Fortress 2

In fact, the only game with a native option to enable TB I was able to find among my installed games was Hard Reset.
Click to expand...

I played MoH, Portal, RF:G and Metro and never used D3D overrider. I don't even know what program that is ;)
I'll do a quick install on Portal and compare ingame vsync with forced vsync.

Edit:
VSync (ingame) in Portal has triple buffering. I have all kinds of fps values below 60, not just 30, 20, 15 etc. Maybe I'll install on of the other games later, too. Are you sure about TB not working in these titles?
 
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RadeonPro should be able to do just about anything you want with an AMD card. Its freeware and works great.
 
boxleitnerb said:
Yes, sure. The separate triple buffering option is for OpenGL, yes. But you get automatic triple buffering when forcing vsync in D3D. Do you know of a game that doesn't support TB on its own?
Click to expand...

Uh, since when? I've always had to force TB with D3DOverrider. And yes, there was a noticeable difference in input lag so I know it was working.
 
Since...ever? Tell me a game to check out and I will (if I have it or if there is a demo). I only know I never ever used D3DOverrider and never had these drops in over a decade.
 
I'll have to investigate this further, but the main game I would test is ArmA 2, since the input lag is really noticeable and annoying (especially when using TrackIR).
 
And you get a drop to 30fps with vsync? Before I download 2.5GB for nothing, would you please check first?
 
boxleitnerb said:
Are you sure about TB not working in these titles?
Click to expand...

I didn't say TB isn't working in them. I said they have no native options to enable it. TB works in any given D3D game once you force it.

The question is, how on earth have you managed forcing TB in D3D games for years, like you say, without even knowing about D3DOverrider? At least a couple of years ago there was surely no other way to do it.
 
Goodcoin said:
I didn't say TB isn't working in them. I said they have no native options to enable it. TB works in any given D3D game once you force it.

The question is, how on earth have you managed forcing TB in D3D games for years, like you say, without even knowing about D3DOverrider? At least a couple of years ago there was surely no other way to do it.
Click to expand...

VSync, as I said. Not the ingame option but via the driver.
 
boxleitnerb said:
And you get a drop to 30fps with vsync? Before I download 2.5GB for nothing, would you please check first?
Click to expand...

I will. However, I will also say that if you are using something like FRAPs, I'm pretty sure you will not see instant drops to 30 FPS, 20 FPS, etc. because of how the averaging works in programs like that. From what I understand you have to chart actual FPS over time rather than just looking at the "averaged" number in the corner.
 
Adaptive VSync is great, but if you regularly run at the 60 FPS cap (i.e. VSync is enabled) you will still get at least some of the input lag that you get when not using Triple Buffering.
 
boxleitnerb said:
VSync, as I said. Not the ingame option but via the driver.
Click to expand...

OK, but why it didn't work for everyone else? Forcing VSYNC through CP only forced VSYNC, not TB -- we had to use D3DOverrider for that. Maybe things are different now, but trust me, that was reality for years. There are loads of articles about it on the Web.
 
My understanding is that it should work with any Nvidia card back to the G80.
 
boxleitnerb said:
Since...ever? Tell me a game to check out and I will (if I have it or if there is a demo). I only know I never ever used D3DOverrider and never had these drops in over a decade.
Click to expand...
please show evidence of this. you are the only person that has ever said this. please dont think that just because you dont see fps go straight to 30 from 60 that it means triple buffering is on. framerate counters dont always reflect exactly what is going on but when you look at the actual frametimes log you will see what is really happening. its been mentioned for years in every article about vsync that the ONLY way to force triple buffering would be to uses D3DOverrider. it would make ZERO sense to turn on vsync from the Nvidia control panel and automatically get triple buffering when even the triple buffering option has no impact on DX games.
 
cannondale06 said:
please show evidence of this. you are the only person that has ever said this. please dont think that just because you dont see fps go straight to 30 from 60 that it means triple buffering is on. framerate counters dont always reflect exactly what is going on but when you look at the actual frametimes log you will see what is really happening. its been mentioned for years in every article about vsync that the ONLY way to force triple buffering would be to uses D3DOverrider. it would make ZERO sense to turn on vsync from the Nvidia control panel and automatically get triple buffering when even the triple buffering option has no impact on DX games.
Click to expand...

Wait a second:
As far as I understand, if you cannot maintain 60fps, you STAY at 30fps, so Fraps would indeed show this:
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMzNDU0OTI1NHhBa25NMUFBUzJfMV8zX2wuZ2lm

I'll check Skyrim right now. In the SkyrimPrefs.ini VSync is off: "iPresentInterval=0"
I don't have D3DOverrider installed and will force VSync through the driver and record frametimes.
 
boxleitnerb said:
Wait a second:
As far as I understand, if you cannot maintain 60fps, you STAY at 30fps, so Fraps would indeed show this:
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMzNDU0OTI1NHhBa25NMUFBUzJfMV8zX2wuZ2lm

I'll check Skyrim right now. In the SkyrimPrefs.ini VSync is off: "iPresentInterval=0"
I don't have D3DOverrider installed and will force VSync through the driver and record frametimes.
Click to expand...
I too used to always wonder what people meant by dropping straight from 60 to 30 since I rarely ever saw that.

but yes regardless of what your framerate counter shows on screen if you look at the frametimes in Fraps and calculate the delta time between successive frames you will see that indeed its basically close 30 fps if you cant maintain 60 fps in a game without triple buffering.

and again forcing vsync from the control panel has NEVER applied triple buffering. if I cant maintain 60 fps in a game without triple buffering I will get the exact same framerate using vsync from the control panel or using it directly from the in game settings.
 
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I loaded up a save, looked into the sky (60fps), then down and fraps showed around 40fps there. I did this three times and recorded the results:

 
Nvidia themselves even tell you in their own tweak guides to use D3DOverrider to force triple buffering. http://www./optimize/guides/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-tweak-guide/#14


The two main alternatives for VSync in Skyrim are:

Leave VSync enabled in Skyrim (i.e. the default), and enable Triple Buffering instead using the D3DOverrider utility which comes with the free RivaTuner software. This will improve performance and can reduce mouse lag without resulting in other negative effects. Furthermore, because the FPS cap from VSync remains in place, your vertical mouse axis will not become incredibly sensitive, though it will still become sluggish at low FPS. The only issue is that Triple Buffering uses more Video RAM which may cause problems on some systems, and it may not reduce mouse lag to the same degree as simply disabling VSync. To counter this, check the other mouse-related variables in this section.

Disable VSync and use a FPS Limiter Mod to maintain any FPS cap you wish, though 60 or 30 FPS is recommended. This will prevent extreme vertical mouse sensitivity and physics issues, and will remove mouse lag, but there may still be some tearing.
 
Rather tell me why my fps don't drop to 30fps, but 40 (same as without vsync).
Shouldn't it be like this without D3DOverrider:



But the thing is, I have never experienced this behavior without D3DOverrider.
 
boxleitnerb said:
Rather tell me why my fps don't drop to 30fps, but 40 (same as without vsync).
Shouldn't it be like this without D3DOverrider:



But the thing is, I have never experienced this behavior without D3DOverrider.
Click to expand...
and I don't hardly ever see it either in the actual game.

again though looking at frametimes showed something different though.

and also my point is again that turning on vsync from the cp does NOT automatically just enable triple buffering. the numbers you are getting will be the same whether vsync is used from cp or in game settings if that game does not have triple buffering at all. some games themselves enable triple buffering automatically if you turn on vsync though.
 
So what game should I check? Do you have an example of a game that absolutely doesn't support triple buffering, no matter what you do? That is, a game where one can see the same behavior as shown in the graph above.
 
boxleitnerb said:
So what game should I check? Do you have an example of a game that absolutely doesn't support triple buffering, no matter what you do? That is, a game where one can see the same behavior as shown in the graph above.
Click to expand...
I know the original Call of Juarez does not have triple buffering. running in DX10 maxed was pretty demanding on my gtx260 and I could not maintain 60 fps. some mod in another forum was saying that he went straight to 30fps in that game when he could not maintain 60 with vsync on. I was like you and told him that I did not see that happen before. I made a video for him and he still would not shut up about it. he still swore that he dropped to 30 even after I showed him that vid and said I was doing something wrong.

anyway that's when I was told by somebody else to look at the frametimes and calculate the delta time between successive frames. sure enough that showed that about 90-95% of the time that I was not at 60 fps that I was indeed around 30 fps. that was regardless of what the framerate counter showed. it still pissed me off that the mod was saying he always went straight to 30 even looking at the framerate counter in game. funny how he could never make me a video though. lol

anyway the bottom line is that forcing vsync from cp does not automatically enable triple buffering in a game that does not have it.
 
boxleitnerb said:
Okay, I'll test CoJ and post the results.
Also this is interesting:
http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl...&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:71&tx=146&ty=77

Clearly, with VSync on, Metro 2033 drops to 30fps flat, at least in their test. I will check that, too.
Click to expand...
I know the framerate counter does not drop to 30 fps in game but I have never checked frametimes and calculated what was going on. I do know that both Batman AC and Metro 2033 are certainly games that feel like choppy garbage if they go below 60 fps with vsync on though.

you need to also look at a game without triple buffering that has an in game vsync option though too. that way you can compare control panel vsync to in game vsync. they have always performed identical for me though.
 
I'll check frametimes only, no problem.

Edit: Metro 2033 Benchmark...interesting!

app controlled (off - the benchmark has no vsync control obviously) vs. forced. GTX580 single


same but GTX580 SLI


I'm baffled. I'll check the other games too.
 
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Okay, I did not test framerates over time, but I tested ArmA 2 with the following situations:

-VSync forced on via driver, no TB forced
-VSync on in-game, no TB forced
-VSync on in-game, TB forced via D3DOverrider
-VSync off (control test)

There was definitely significant input lag when using BOTH VSync in the driver and VSync in-game. Same amount. When forcing TB with D3DOverrider that input lag all but vanished.

Conclusion: Forcing VSync in driver does not force Triple Buffering.

This has been my experience with every other game I've tried as well.
 
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