Where are the 8K Monitors?

[elvn]

As I understand it, the QN900D still only has a 144 Hz panel so what is the point of it accepting 240 Hz? And has the one connect box been updated so it can actually handle even 144 Hz which the QN900C couldnt?

I wasn't aware that it was a 144hz panel? If that's true it might be cutting the resolution vertically or something like some of the TCLs do which isn't great. That is not how they have been marketing the 900D though, and afaik that's not how any of samsung's other 8k screen's high Hz capability worked.

The TCL M8 screens are native 120hz. They use a game accelerator mode to cut the vertical rez in half to hit 240hz.

From a reddit reply on their previous model:

Apparently it doesn't cut the resolution in half, it just cuts the *vertical* resolution in half. So 3840*2160 becomes a very weird 3840*1080.

TCL have implemented this "motion accelerator" on a few of their native 120hz/144hz panels, too (specifically, I'm looking at the TCL 65C745K, which might be EU/UK-exclusive - I know I had trouble finding any retailers carrying 120hz TCL models widely available in America over here when I was making notes of what was available some time last year. This one does 120hz, 144hz and this weird 3840*1080@240hz).

Alternately it could be frame doubling 4k 120?? But again, that's not how their other 8k screen's higher hz capability ever worked and it's not how they are promoting the 900D. The fact that it only gets 4k 240hz off of a pc probably means it's using DSC. Consoles can't do over 120hz so requiring PC only to do 240hz might indicate that the 900D would be accepting a real 240hz signal from the pc, though consoles probably don't do DSC either so that could be it too.

. .

I haven't been able to find much info on the 900D other than ces showcase and some marketing stuff. The 900C is not the same thing.



The marketing has been saying it can do 8k 120hz and 4k 240hz, kind of like the 900C can do 8k 60hz and 4k 120hz.

From CNET:

"Samsung also says the 900D is the first TV to support a maximum variable refresh rate (VRR) of 240Hz, improving the smoothness of games. Most other TVs max out at 120Hz or 144Hz, although Samsung's step-down 800D 8K TV can go up to 165Hz. Note that these higher refresh rates work only with PCs, not game consoles like Xbox Series X or PlayStation 5, so I don't consider them a big deal for most people."

This is after the 240hz 7680x2160 monitor came out, so they've been able to do 1/2 8k at 240hz.

If you've seen some specifics on the 900 D let me know where to find them if you can.

 

[LukeTbk]

I won't put much hope on AI chip just because it has the word AI in it. R&D takes time, you can't get AI function properly unless there is years of R&D. Don't buy into the stock hype by CNBC

This is an 2018 article:
https://venturebeat.com/ai/samsung-goes-big-with-147-inch-tv-ai-powered-8k-upscaling/

The AI chips used now has generation 3 in its name, using ML to upscale image-video have been quite common for at least 5 years now.
https://insights.samsung.com/2019/07/11/with-8k-displays-its-all-about-the-details/

 

[Nobu]

I thought you don't have a 8K monitor. So what's the benefit of upscale to 8K?

Same as Radeon Virtual Super Resolution (aka "super scaling"): You can use the extra data to compute sub-pixel values, for more accurate image representation. The amount this helps depends on the scaling technique used.

Edit: VSR, not FSR, etc.

 

[Happy Hopping]

so essentially, it's the Samsung screen doing it, not the Nvidia video card connects to the Samsung doing it. I thought the way Elvn talks about Nvidia shield, it's the video card doing the job.

And I just remember my old Sony blu-ray player also claims it can upscale DVD movie to blu-ray quality video. Except back then, it is not called AI.

 

[LukeTbk]

And I just remember my old Sony blu-ray player also claims it can upscale DVD movie to blu-ray quality video. Except back then, it is not called AI.

There is different technic one can use to upscale, some use machine learning and will get the AI branding under some company decision, some does not

Since the 1080p TV became popular a ton of media were upscaler, LCD type tv cannot like CRT display any other resolution than their native one, the question was always who does it when and how and not if upscaling will happen or not.

In the past it was rater simple interpolation technique between known pixel to guess possible in-between pixel to fill the screens, with competing strategy.

With ML the word AI is used, because the system can fake knowing what an high res version of an lower image should look like by having been train on millions of say downscaled to 720p version of the native 16k image, it is not an human that specify with a math formula than under a list of condition the pixel should be 20% of those around them but favor the hard line or something of the sorts, it is in part a black box with millions of weights-dimensions.

 

[improwise]

I wasn't aware that it was a 144hz panel? If that's true it might be cutting the resolution vertically or something like some of the TCLs do which isn't great. That is not how they have been marketing the 900D though, and afaik that's not how any of samsung's other 8k screen's high Hz capability worked.



Alternately it could be frame doubling 4k 120?? But again, that's not how their other 8k screen's higher hz capability ever worked and it's not how they are promoting the 900D. The fact that it only gets 4k 240hz off of a pc probably means it's using DSC. Consoles can't do over 120hz so requiring PC only to do 240hz might indicate that the 900D would be accepting a real 240hz signal from the pc, though consoles probably don't do DSC either so that could be it too.

. .

I haven't been able to find much info on the 900D other than ces showcase and some marketing stuff. The 900C is not the same thing.



The marketing has been saying it can do 8k 120hz and 4k 240hz, kind of like the 900C can do 8k 60hz and 4k 120hz.

From CNET:



This is after the 240hz 7680x2160 monitor came out, so they've been able to do 1/2 8k at 240hz.

If you've seen some specifics on the 900 D let me know where to find them if you can.

All sources I have seen that actually mention the panel itself list 144 hz like Flatpanels HD

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/samsung_qn900d_qled_2024.php

But I don't really have any more info than that.

Please also note that in the past Samsung seem to have had different specs for their 8K TVs in different markets, like the QN900B was only 120 hz in the EU while 144 hz at least in the US. The QN900C was the same though.

 

[elvn]

All sources I have seen that actually mention the panel itself list 144 hz like Flatpanels HD

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/samsung_qn900d_qled_2024.php

But I don't really have any more info than that.

Please also note that in the past Samsung seem to have had different specs for their 8K TVs in different markets, like the QN900B was only 120 hz in the EU while 144 hz at least in the US.

That link has one heading saying

"One Connect
240Hz Mode"

But it lists the panel as 144Hz so maybe they are using some trickery like the TCL. Will be interesting to find out what's up.

 

[elvn]

so essentially, it's the Samsung screen doing it, not the Nvidia video card connects to the Samsung doing it. I thought the way Elvn talks about Nvidia shield, it's the video card doing the job.

And I just remember my old Sony blu-ray player also claims it can upscale DVD movie to blu-ray quality video. Except back then, it is not called AI.

I had the preview of microsoft copilot in windows 11, an AI tool, write this for me.

======================================================================


Let’s delve into the fascinating world of AI video upscaling.

1. What Is AI Upscaling?

• AI upscaling is an innovative technique that employs artificial intelligence to enhance the quality of video footage.
• Unlike traditional upscaling methods that merely stretch pixels, AI upscaling utilizes complex algorithms to predict and fill in missing details, resulting in a sharper and more refined video.

2. How Does AI Upscaling Work?

• AI upscaling models are trained on large datasets of images and videos. These datasets contain both low-resolution and high-resolution versions of the same content.
• During training, the AI learns patterns and correlations between low-res and high-res features.
• When you apply AI upscaling to a video, it analyzes each frame and predicts what the missing details should look like.
• The model then fills in those details, resulting in an upscaled version of the original video.

3. Benefits of AI Upscaling:

• Improved Quality: AI upscaling makes lower-resolution videos fit with unrivaled crispness.
• Real-Time Inference: Some AI upscaling solutions, like those powered by NVIDIA’s Tegra X1+ processor, can perform real-time inference on popular TV shows and movies.
• Enhanced Viewing Experience: AI upscaling makes HD video content from streaming services (such as HBO, Hulu, Netflix, Prime Video, and YouTube) appear sharper on 4K TVs, creating a more immersive viewing experience.

4. Limitations and Considerations:

• AI upscaling is not magic. It cannot create details that were never present in the original footage.
• The quality of the upscaled video depends on the training data, the specific algorithm, and the hardware used.
• Some artifacts may still appear, especially in challenging scenarios.
• While AI upscaling can significantly enhance video quality, it’s essential to manage expectations and understand its limitations.
• In summary, AI upscaling is a powerful tool that bridges the gap between low-res and high-res content, allowing us to enjoy better-quality videos across various platforms and devices.

===============================================

https://news.samsung.com/global/the...led-8k-where-ai-upscaling-meets-deep-learning

excerpts from the full article..

In 2018, Samsung Electronics implemented its machine learning-based AI 8K upscaling technology for the first time. This technology harnesses machine learning wherein a human-designed algorithm intelligently analyzes the various video qualities, including line, light and color, and improves each of these for an improved display resolution. Such deep learning capabilities permit a TV to analyze and process video features whilst simultaneously learning thanks to an artificial neural network that acts in the same way as the human brain.

The members of Samsung’s Picture Quality Solution Lab focused on developing deep learning algorithms that enable displays to always showcase optimum video qualities without human intervention. “Deep learning enables more precise and efficient image quality improvements than can be achieved by humans alone,” noted Hyungjun Lim, who developed the AI upscaling technology’s texture generation method.

This operational advantage is what led the team to develop an AI upscaling technology that combines machine learning with deep learning – Samsung’s AI Quantum Processor 8K. “Previous machine learning technology brought about enhanced sharpness to display picture quality, but now our technology can also offer more delicate texturing,” noted Hyunseung Lee, who developed enhanced edge sharpness for the AI Quantum Processor 8K. “Images with complicated textures, like mountain or grass landscapes, can now be upscaled into 8K quality more naturally.”

This AI-powered innovation is not just limited to upscaling technologies. There exist a variety of ways to harness AI to improve the screen qualities of displays, including video quality categorization, noise elimination, data-compression-caused distortion restoration and spatial or time-based resolution restoration, to name just a few.

 

[elvn]

From what I saw on flatpanelsHD's listing of the Samsung 900D 8k screen I've been interested in, after improwise linked it, the 900D appears to have a 144Hz native screen unless they listed it wrong.

The flatpanels HD spec sheet does list a "one connect 240Hz mode" but that might mean it's doing frame doubling or something, like modern LG OLED gaming tv's do for 60fps consoles games with LG's "game boost mode". If that's the case, (unlike nvidia's AI frame generation generating an "in-between" frame state) you wouldn't get any more motion resolution, motion articulation (more dots per dotted line curve, more unique animation cells in an animation flip book that is flipping faster). So that would be a little disappointing. However you might get less input lag compared to 120fpsHz or 144fpsHZ . . and you'd probably get less FoV movement blur (half as much at 240fpsHz compared to 120fpsHz due to cutting the sample and hold blur, otherwise known as image persistence). The game boost mode on the LG OLEDs doesn't add input lag to (60fps) material that is doubled, in fact it reduces it compared to the non-doubled (60fps) version. More "flipped page"s, even if it's the same "drawing" twice, should still cut the blur by up to half at least.

However, the game boost mode on LG gaming TVs only boosts 60fpsHZ to the 120fpsHz native of the panel, so if the 900D is 144Hz native that wouldn't work, at least that's not how any gaming tvs have so far as far as I know. So idk how they are supposed to get 240hz if flatpanelHD's native resolution listing of 144Hz is correct.

TCL had a different method where they cut the vertical resolution in half (to 1080 high across 3840 wide instead of 2160 high across 3840 wide) and scaled it full screen, which allowed them to get higher hz on their last gen 4k screen. I suspect that method might compromise image quality compared to the frame doubling "game boost" method. If so I'd hope it was something more like game boost.



I'm very curious about how it will actually work and how it will use their gen 3 AI chip. Looking forward to detailed reviews of PC gaming on it.

 

[improwise]

I get the feeling (which could be wrong, we don't really know yet) that the QN900D is really just an updated QN900C, just as that was just an updated version of the QN900B. With the QN900C being on sale, it is probably a much better deal (at least assuming you want an 8K LCD). I am mostly interested in finding out if the QN900D has more dimming zones and also an updated One Connect Box, as the current one can't even do 144 hz reliably, so 240 hz seems like a pipe dream.

 

[improwise]

Noticed that Rtings has reviewed the QN900C now (or at least a few months ago)

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qn900c-8k-qled

 

[Happy Hopping]

this series is way too big to use as PC monitor, also they are not OLED technology, but it's nice to hear this is 4:4:4 chroma at 8K

on related news, is the QN700C chroma 4:4:4?

https://www.samsung.com/levant/tvs/qled-tv/qn700c-55-inch-neo-qled-8k-smart-tv-qa55qn700cuxtw/

 

[Happy Hopping]

Noticed that Rtings has reviewed the QN900C now (or at least a few months ago)

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qn900c-8k-qled

according to their youtube chnl., they said they BOUGHT 350 TV in the past 10 year for testing. Are they for real? How are they going to get rid of those TV after testing? Where do they get $ for that? Or do they refund back to Bestbuy before the 14 days? As there is no way they have revenue for that , as their profit is from advertising only

 

[elvn]

according to their youtube chnl., they said they BOUGHT 350 TV in the past 10 year for testing. Are they for real? How are they going to get rid of those TV after testing? Where do they get $ for that? Or do they refund back to Bestbuy before the 14 days? As there is no way they have revenue for that , as their profit is from advertising only

I'm sure they have some kind of system or agreement to cycle things out that they review but I have no idea about that. The burn in torture tests are probably a different matter.


Still no updates about the 900D that I've seen. They just showed it at CES and now it's dead air for 3 months. I'll be curious of what it can do once someone gets their hands on one.

They'll be early adopter priced for quite some time anyway but I'd like to know some specifics for one to be an option later for me (along with a 5000 series gpu hopefully). Will see what the display landscape looks like at that point. Samsung high end screens usually drop $1000 or more, or have sales, after 6 - 8 months but this one isn't even released yet so looks like a long haul.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Woot has some 700C that is very cheap, but I don't know if it's 4:4:4 chroma, the search engines show nothing. I wonder if there is a software that can determine chroma sub-sampling ratio.

The 800 and 900 series is better, but they are way too big. I can't put a 65" on my desk. Sharp only have 60" at 8K, but they don't sell to North America, LG has that nano99?? at 8K, but again, the screen is too big. So in the end, there is no sense to upgrade to 8K until the market decides to have 8K, I wonder what year that is.

 

[elvn]

Woot has some 700C that is very cheap, but I don't know if it's 4:4:4 chroma, the search engines show nothing. I wonder if there is a software that can determine chroma sub-sampling ratio.

The 800 and 900 series is better, but they are way too big. I can't put a 65" on my desk. Sharp only have 60" at 8K, but they don't sell to North America, LG has that nano99?? at 8K, but again, the screen is too big. So in the end, there is no sense to upgrade to 8K until the market decides to have 8K, I wonder what year that is.

I know the 700B had dithering which affected text/clarity, but you could get it to turn off if you ran game mode with VRR active, so there was a work-around there. Thought that might be worth mentioning. The 800A has 4:4:4 chroma ~ RGB. Idk anything about the 700C, I wasn't aware they made one even.

RTings:

"The Samsung QN900C is an excellent TV, but its aggressive automatic brightness limiter (ABL) and only adequate viewing angle are disappointing. Since 8k content is still very rare, an 8k TV isn't worth it for most people, and you can get similar performance from a 4k TV like the Samsung QN90C/QN90CD QLED for much cheaper."

I don't care about the viewing angles so much. Being extremely bright they have ABL, which is going to be hard to avoid without using active cooling fans.

The 800 and 900 series is better,

The screens definitely got better in the last few, most recent iterations according to reviews. Beforehand, they were actually somewhat worse than what a 4k screen of their tv generation could present in media and games, so the only real benefit would be the increased resolution , desktop/app real-estate.
The newer AI tech in the upcoming 900D model upscales way better from in person reports from CES, which will be a huge difference in using 4k material making it look better than 4k. From reports so far, the 900D really advanced on the AI upscaling front. Quality-wise, and faster. That and they have higher hz in the last two gens. Personally, they only thing I'd consider a 700 / 800 series for would be desktop/app space since their picture quality, while "good" , isn't even on par with a 4k screen of their generation. The 700B, 800, are definitely a good deal at the prices they can sometimes be found at if that is the goal though. If samsung's new AI chip does what they claim it does, it'll be a major upgrade to making 4k material "8k". If so, I wouldn't compare it to the 900C (or even the 800D) as I can't recall any reviewers being overwhelmed/very excited by it's upscaling capability like they were at CES for the 900D. Will see when actual reviews come out but like I said before, it'll probably be 6 - 8 months after it hits the market before the early adopter samsung tax drops off (and will still remain relatively expensive).

but they are way too big. I can't put a 65" on my desk.

Yes I would only get one if I was going to put it on it's own TV stand and had a few more feet to spare. You get a 60 deg viewing angle at around 4 feet screen surface to eyeballs, 64 deg is about 45 inches away. I'd use that distance with a 65" for media and games. For a multi-monitor replacement style usage scenario, you could get away with closer since you'd be turning your head less often to more static desktop/app material though, kind of like having a grid of four 4k screens with no bezels window-space wise. There would be a limit to how close that could be without making the pixels at the far ends of the screen not off-axis too much with the screen not being curved though in my opinion, so cramming a 65" directly onto a desk would probably still be too near unless an extraordinarily deep desk.

. . . 31.5" to 33" 16:9 screen gets 60 deg viewing angle at 24inch to 25 inch view distance

. . . 65" 16:9 screen gets 60 deg viewing angle at 49 inch view distance.

A 65" screen is around 57" wide, so it would be like two 33" 4k screens next to each other side by side, plus two more stacked on top of those. (55" 8k is like four ~27" 4k screens). If you were sitting in front of a ~ 33" 4k screen at a desk singly, you'd get 60 deg viewing angle at 25 inch view distance. For two 33" 4k screens side by side I'd probably want to sit farther than that just to make panning my gaze between them a little easier though. Also, considering the space above being two stacked on top I'd want my head to be in the middle of the screen which would be a lot easier to align if using a separate stand and a little distance instead of having the top of the desk be the "floor".


(source: https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comments/8stzb8/cool_little_monitor_resolution_infographic_for/ )

8K = 7680 X 4320

4K = 3840 X 2160

QHD = 2560 X 1440

FHD = 1920 X 1080

HD = 1280 X 720

there is no sense to upgrade to 8K until the market decides to have 8K, I wonder what year that is.

It would be similar to two 57" 7680x2160 G95NC screens stacked on top of each other. That kind of desktop/app space makes sense for, or would at least be enjoyable, for some people to use. Sense is relative. The 1000R curve of the 57" g95nc would be nice though and no 8k screens have that to date. The 8k gaming tvs have 120hz, 144hz, (maybe some kind of quasi 240Hz in the 900D ??) , VRR, FALD, HDR. The newest one, from reports, upscales 4k to look appreciably better than 4k at 8k, and I'm assuming at a 60 deg viewing angle's perceived pixel sizes or nearer that will make even more difference in media and games than long living room view distances. However for me it would be more about the desktop/app real estate with no bezels, but without downgrading the picture quality from comparable flagship 4k gaming tvs like the former 8k gen's screens.

Would it make sense for most people who are using the bookshelf ~ sheet music on an upright piano style desk layout? Probably not. A 32" to 36" screen would work best directly on a desk (for 16:9 screens anyway) imo. Even if you used it (a 65" 8k) pretty near for desktop/apps as a multi-monitor replacement, it would look better with the desk or screen pushed back for full screen media closer to 64 to 60 deg viewing angle ~ 45 inches away to 4' away. You could run games in a smaller windowed space if/when the screen was nearer too though.

I agree it would be a better 8k landscape if there was a real 8k push with multiple major manufacturers competing in the space price and features wise. That's the "What year would that be?" question. I think in the long run, years from now, XR and MR glasses will advance so much in resolution and features that physical room screens won't be the main option anymore however. So if it's that long before "physical" 8k screens come to market in large numbers, it might be too late for them, while at some point the virtual screens will be able to display 8k or higher screen spaces (as well as doing a lot of "holographic" stuff that flat screens don't do).


8k screens on PC

Two G95NC's, equating to 8k of resolution but suffering the bezel across the middle. Gaining the curvature though. He seems to have his resolution scaled larger here though, judging by that giant taskbar lol. The rest of the images in this reply look more like 100% / 8k scaling.

 

[Armenius]

Woot has some 700C that is very cheap, but I don't know if it's 4:4:4 chroma, the search engines show nothing. I wonder if there is a software that can determine chroma sub-sampling ratio.

The 800 and 900 series is better, but they are way too big. I can't put a 65" on my desk. Sharp only have 60" at 8K, but they don't sell to North America, LG has that nano99?? at 8K, but again, the screen is too big. So in the end, there is no sense to upgrade to 8K until the market decides to have 8K, I wonder what year that is.

The 4K version (Q70C) supports 4:4:4.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Elvn, what's the model of the first 2 photos?

 

[elvn]

Elvn, what's the model of the first 2 photos?

https://www.reddit.com/r/macsetups/...p_v3_8k_samsung_55_qn700b_at_4k_hidpi_160ppi/


QN900B

1080p zones for example purposes

QN900A

 

[Happy Hopping]

I can't find any link that shows what the chroma sub-sampling is for QN700, also I have been using my USB 3 port of my 4K viewsonic for convenience. The QN700 is surprisingly USB 2.0 port only, eventhough USB 3.0 port has been out for decades

how does anyone confirm the chroma subsampling ratio is indeed 4:4:4? is there a software that can do that? or does everyone use RTing text test?

 

[kasakka]

Looking at these pics, it feels the lack of curvature is going to mean a lot of practicality gets lost. I hated that when using the LG CX 48" 4K, the far edges of the screen felt they were hard to use if the display was closer to me. Curvature solves that without increasing viewing distance.

Still hoping Samsung would make a 55" 8K version of the ARK.

how does anyone confirm the chroma subsampling ratio is indeed 4:4:4? is there a software that can do that? or does everyone use RTing text test?

The Rtings test image works fine. You just need to open it with 1:1 scaling.

 

[elvn]

Looking at these pics, it feels the lack of curvature is going to mean a lot of practicality gets lost. I hated that when using the LG CX 48" 4K, the far edges of the screen felt they were hard to use if the display was closer to me. Curvature solves that without increasing viewing distance.

Still hoping Samsung would make a 55" 8K version of the ARK.


The Rtings test image works fine. You just need to open it with 1:1 scaling.

Well, imo, they are using them too close on those desks. Even if sitting at 40" away, a 1000R curve would be appreciated though.
1000R(adius) = 1000mm = ~ 40 inch to center of the curvature where all of the pixels would be pointed directly at you.

. .

Central viewing angle for a 65" 16:9 screen

For a 16:9 screen (flat), you'd fill your central viewing angle without pushing the screen into your periphery when sitting at 60 to 50 degree horizontal viewing angle.

. .

65" 16:9 screen for a 60 viewing angle = 49 inch view distance ( ~ 4' screen surface to eyeballs).

65" 16:9 screen for a 50 viewing angle = 62 inch view distance ( ~ 5' screen surface to eyeballs).

. .

Those screens on the desks in those images look closer than that to me. There aren't a lot of examples of 8k pc setups though so options were limited. At least the pictures give some idea of the potential desktop/app real-estate. (Though if you push it too far back, just like using a small 8k screen, you'd probably have to scale the text up some and reduce the desktop/app space to ~ 6k worth of space).


. . .

Closer than 60 to 50 deg overall

You can get away with closer than that for multi-monitor replacement usage but with a single screen not being like multiple monitors that you can tilt inward, I wouldn't go more than

+15 deg into your periphery on each side (+30 deg total) = 90deg/80 deg = 29 inch to 34 inch viewing distance.

Essentially, putting the middle two windows of the picture below into your central 60 to 50 deg viewing angle, and having the 1920x wide windows/columns on each side of that central 4k width just into your periphery.


That central 4k section is like the width of a 33" 4k screen (roughly), so to get 60 to 50 degree viewing angle in the middle 4k you'd have to set the monitor at around 31 inch to 25 inches. So I guess that is near to what they are doing in the pictures after all but as you identified, that still puts 1920x wide on each side out into your peripheral, and so with much more off-axis pixels in those areas since you can't tilt those areas to face you like you can in a multi-monitor setup. Also, when decoupled from a desk and set back farther, it's easier to keep the center of the screen in line with your head so you that your vertical viewing angle is comfortable and usable, where mounted on top of a desk a large screen usually has to stand much taller over you due to the desk surface being the "floor" bottom limit.

1920 + 4k + 1920

I hated that when using the LG CX 48" 4K, the far edges of the screen felt they were hard to use if the display was closer to me.

50 to 60 degree would be closer to optimal to avoid what you are talking about. That's why I mounted my 48" CX separately, decoupling it from my desk completely and setting it back farther.
At more reasonable viewing distances, (if possible/desirable to achieve depending on your situation), a 42", 48", 55", 65" screen would be fine. It's when they are shoe-horned directly onto a desk that you have to suffer some compromises.

If you are origingally set up for sitting 24" - 25" away from a desktop sized screen, when setting up to decouple a larger gaming tv screen from the desk on it's own mount for optimal viewing angles you'd only be increasing the distance by an additional:

8" to 14" for a 42 inch screen
11" to 20" for a 48 inch screen

A little more of a stretch for:

55 inch screen + 15" to 26"
65 inch screen + 24" (2') to 37" (~ 3') increase from 25".
That's for flat screens specifically. A 1000R(adius) curve = 1000mm = ~ 40" view (in total, screen surface to eyeballs) optimally to the center of curvature. So + 15" from a formerly 25" viewing distance layout.

Sides not into the periphery for the most part, and with negligible off axis pixel areas (which cause distortion, uniformity issues)

Sides pushed into into the periphery, making large off axis pixel areas (which cause distortion, uniformity issues) as well as pushing more of the screen out of your central view to where you'd have to turn your gaze (eyes, head).

Still hoping Samsung would make a 55" 8K version of the ARK.

I agree but I'm not holding my breath on that. I'd definitely be interested in one.

. . . . .

 

[improwise]

I can't find any link that shows what the chroma sub-sampling is for QN700, also I have been using my USB 3 port of my 4K viewsonic for convenience. The QN700 is surprisingly USB 2.0 port only, eventhough USB 3.0 port has been out for decades

how does anyone confirm the chroma subsampling ratio is indeed 4:4:4? is there a software that can do that? or does everyone use RTing text test?

There are plenty of 4:4:4 test images available, like the ones here https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling

Edit:

Obviously I should learn how to read before I write

 

[improwise]

Looking at these pics, it feels the lack of curvature is going to mean a lot of practicality gets lost. I hated that when using the LG CX 48" 4K, the far edges of the screen felt they were hard to use if the display was closer to me. Curvature solves that without increasing viewing distance.

Maybe it is a personal preference, I have always seen a curve as pointless (no phun intended) for any other reason that to combat poor viewing angles. Maybe create some immersion for sim racing but that is about it. A massive curve also makes the monitor become more of a furniture instead of something like the QN900C which could have been my dream monitor if it wasn't for undefeatable scaling and the One Connect Box limitations.

 

[Nobu]

Might be more interesting to me when they start making spherical monitors.

 

[kasakka]

Maybe it is a personal preference, I have always seen a curve as pointless (no phun intended) for any other reason that to combat poor viewing angles. Maybe create some immersion for sim racing but that is about it. A massive curve also makes the monitor become more of a furniture instead of something like the QN900C which could have been my dream monitor if it wasn't for undefeatable scaling and the One Connect Box limitations.

I had the LG CX 48" mounted on a monitor arm on my desk for a while and ran into the issue I described, where I felt I had to always look at the edges of the display at an angle and that felt uncomfortable. This made me buy a floor stand and mount the TV behind my desk, which gave it enough viewing distance to remove the problem since it was closer to looking at a regular monitor where it fits better into my field of view.

But that makes you run into issues like scaling becoming required (or higher scaling factor as the viewing distance goes up), so you lose some of the benefits of the large display as you lose desktop area. That's where the curvature can help, because to me it's a question of screen size, resolution and curvature = viewing distance required for comfortable use.

The more curvature, the better the edges become to use as you are seeing them face-on (like on a smaller monitor) rather than at an angle. See elvn's pile of degree graphs. Spherical displays would be pretty cool for making something even larger than 40-55" more useful on the desktop.

I have never used an 8K for desktop so I assume that it mitigates the issue to some degree as it retains more desktop area even mounted behind a desk. I did run into issues with the LG CX 48" already where due to its height, I felt the bottom 2/3 of the display was more comfortable to use so I used it more like an ultrawide most of the time.

 

[elvn]

If you decouple the screen from the desk and set it back so that it's 60 to 50 deg viewing angle, the pixel sizes will look the same to your perspective as well as the screen filling the same amount of your personal FoV. So if you had a 32" 4k on a desk at 60 deg viewing angle it would look the same as far as needing or not needing to scale text size as a 48" 4k at 60 deg viewing angle. Unless perhaps you were nearsighted I guess and not wearing corrective lenses at the time.

Any 4k screen of any size set at a distance to get the same central 60 to 50 degree viewing angle will get 64 to 77 PPD, pixels per degree. Which means they have the same perceived pixel density, perceived pixel sizes, and therefore default text and interface sizes, to your perspective. I typically use 64 to 70 PPD which I can read easily at 1:1 pixel mapping ~ 100% scaling, so personally I'm fine with 4k at 60 to 50 deg viewing angle.

These would all look essentially the same.

. . . 31.5" 16:9, 60 deg = 24inch view distance, 50 deg = ~ 30 inch view distance.
. . . 42" 16:9, 60 deg = 32" , 50 deg = 39"
. . . 48" 16:9, 60 deg = 36 ", 50 deg = 45"
. . . 55" 16:9, 60 deg = 42", 50 deg = 51"
. . . 65" 16:9, 60 deg = 49", 50 deg = 62"

Setting a larger gaming screen farther back allows you to mount it a bit lower in height (e.g. using a simple spine'd tv stand with height adjustment for example) . The viewing angle can be lower compared to the edge of your desk over a distance rather than being stuck on top of your desk. Hold a measuring tape up with the reel on the floor right at the front edge of your desk and then have someone walk it away from the desk, or balance it and take pictures from your desk at both locations. You'll see higher numbers (lower on the tape) the farther away the tape is in relation to the horizon of the desk surface which means you have a little more room to move the screen down before the edge of the desk would cut off your viewing angle. I try to keep my head aligned to an imaginary middle band in relation to screens I use personally. I definitely wouldn't like my main gaming and media screen towering over me with my head being aligned to a bottom imaginary 1/3rd band of the screen.

. . . . .

Curvature on screens has the potential to keep all of the pixels on axis to your eyes, if the curvature is aggressive enough vs the screen dimensions and logical seating distance considering that. Think of how people use PLP multi-monitor setups. They typically turn the side screens inward so that their pixels are on axis to them. A curved screen potentially could do the same thing for each pixel almost exactly on axis if they were designed for it, but in a nice uniform curve and without bezels.

The poor viewing angle comment assumes a typical narrow viewed screen rather than a wall of desktop/app real-estate + immersive gaming, like you'd get in a PLP setup or a large ultrawide. Some of use would love a more expansive wall of desktop, but with all of the pixels oriented on axis toward us. More real-estate even if we chose to play games in a smaller central area of the screen at times optionally. A true multi-monitor replacement basically. They tried to market the ark as that, but quads of 1080p are not a true modern multi-monitor replacement. It would have to be 8k to really achieve that.

Looking forward to this kind of thing years into the future once there are models with very high resolution and more polished functionality. I can do something like that with triple monitors but it's not the same as if it were a single very high rez screen with a uniform curvature, and no bezels.

 

[elvn]

This prototype from CES years ago was interesting. I think it was showing off at the point where curved OLEDs became possible, and the buzz was that everything would be curve-able and some things able to be rolled up , etc (which never really happened much). Would be cool if they made one, even better at 8k (with higher hz 4k gaming capability).

. . .

In response to the spherical screen comments - I love multiple screens but this guy's piecemeal setup is a little crazy even for me:
Segmented into way too many screens, and it really doesn't make sense even just from a FoV perspective with the seated areas/keyboard right at the middle screen.

. . .

Three arks. . but outside of racing, 1/2 of each side screen is pretty much wasted. A PLP setup would be better and could remain taller to your perspective, somewhat nearer. (40" is the center of curvature for 1000R , 1000mm).

. . .

I keep coming back to this one with the 55" ark in the middle, though it would look better with flat side screens to match the bezels without gaps, and seated farther away from it. The center of curvature of 1000R(adius), 1000mm is ~ 40", which at least gets you ~ 62 PPD. However I already have a similar PLP setup minus the curvature of the center screen on my 48" oled. The 165hz 4k FALD, matte ark isn't appealing enough just for the curve upgrade compared to a glossy oled or the rollout of 240hz screens, etc. now. If there was a 1000R curvature screen with the 900D tech at 8k it might be a different story.

. .

A couple of pics of way back when I was first setting up my very old, and admittedly a little rough around the edges, PLP setup I ran with for a bit before I got a 1440p PG278Q to put next to the 1440p cinema display:

 

[elvn]

Another pic from that guy's 8k setup that is using the ergodox keyboard, viewed from, or at least picture taken from, a reasonable distance to get that kind of FoV.

I would dark mode all of my stuff. Dark Reader addon works well for browsers. You can also lose that 3rd "shortcuts" toolbar down on the browsers, it's not really needed, but I'm just nitpicking. I'd set up my window spaces differently too but that is a personal thing.

. . . .

The other pic of his setup I posted earlier:

 

[sharknice]

There was a guy did a 360 degree setup with projectors about 10 years ago that was pretty cool. I saw a video of him playing the new (now canceled) Unreal Tournament on it.

 

[elvn]

There was a guy did a 360 degree setup with projectors about 10 years ago that was pretty cool. I saw a video of him playing the new (now canceled) Unreal Tournament on it.

There were some movies with something similar in some scenes , but I never liked projectors personally b/c of the contrast and saturation hit, and traditionally they had poor ppd.

VR can do virtual worlds that are essentially holographic now, but the headsets are bulky, boxy and hot. . and the PPD is still pretty bad, typically in the 20's. The apple headest is getting better ppd wise, but it's not geared for gaming and it's still bulky, and very expensive for not covering all of those bases.

Someyear in the future smaller sunglass like rigs will get high enough rez and be polished and sexy enough (e.g. apple, but prob also samsung, sony, google in competition) to do a lot of things though.

 

[elvn]

I edied that reply a few back because I think imgur links weren't playing well with [H] again.

Here it is again in quotes.

. . . .

The other pic of his setup I posted earlier:

 

[elvn]

Looks like it will be a long wait for any reasonable high price on the 900D. The release price is $5000 usd just for the 65". Samsung drops their monitor prices a lot eventually but it takes a long time. The ark was $3500 - $3600 at launch and was later $1800 on sale with discounts.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsun...led-8k-smart-tizen-tv/6576365.p?skuId=6576365

https://www.samsung.com/us/televisi...ss-samsung-neo-qled-8k-qn900d-qn65qn900dfxza/

I can prob swing the discount which reduces it to $3500 + considerable tax, but I'd rather wait out price drops from the early adopter price tag (and then discount) before I'd actually consider it. I don't like the idea enough to blow $4000 on one heh. I'll save that for the 5000 series gpu. There should be some reviews eventually if it's starting to be posted though at least and I'm curious about it as an option farther down the road.

 

[improwise]

Looks like it will be a long wait for any reasonable high price on the 900D. The release price is $5000 usd just for the 65". Samsung drops their monitor prices a lot eventually but it takes a long time. The ark was $3500 - $3600 at launch and was later $1800 on sale with discounts.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsun...led-8k-smart-tizen-tv/6576365.p?skuId=6576365

https://www.samsung.com/us/televisi...ss-samsung-neo-qled-8k-qn900d-qn65qn900dfxza/

I can prob swing the discount which reduces it to $3500 + considerable tax, but I'd rather wait out price drops from the early adopter price tag (and then discount) before I'd actually consider it. I don't like the idea enough to blow $4000 on one heh. I'll save that for the 5000 series gpu. There should be some reviews eventually if it's starting to be posted though at least and I'm curious about it as an option farther down the road.

Do we know what the QN900D actually offers that the QN900C does not? Rememer last year there was a lot of "AI talk" but in the end, it turned out to be a marginally updated QN900B (Rtings even said so in the QN900C review). This year it is again the AI talk + some kind of 240 hz mode but the panel itself is still listed as 120 hz. And we still don't know if the One Connect box has actually been fixed so that even 144 hz works IRL. Seems like Samsung is basically compeating with themselves in the 8K TVs right now so no real need to really improve besides in marketing...

 

[elvn]

Do we know what the QN900D actually offers that the QN900C does not?

Nope. Well, not really other than the in person takes on the AI upscaling reviewers posted in first looks from CES being very impressed by the upscaling compared to the 900C, and the claims of some kind of a (quasi?) higher Hz mode. With the ordering pages up, hopefully we are closer to where some people actually get their hands on them and post some impressions and more detailed reviews. If the AI upscaling is as good as they say it is, it will be a huge improvement in 4k material to "8k" greater resolution. Samsung supposedly put a lot into the more advanced AI chip generation to make 8k really worth it , especially in regard to 4k media and upscaling even lower tv resolutions and upscaling and improving streames/streaming services that have lower bit rate than uhd discs. Still a big "if" at this point.

The one connect box on ver 2 of the 55" 1000R Ark seems to work a lot better than the first one (much to the chagrin of v1 owners), so that might be a promising sign.

Very curious of the 900D's capabilities but of course I'm tempering my expectations considering the history of the other year's models and all of the questions brought up in this thread. Plenty of time to mull it over and read reviews since I'm not paying the early $3600+ tax ~ $4000 out of pocket at discount, (let alone $5000+ tax sticker price) on it's pricing curve even if I did decide to get one.

 

[improwise]

Problem is that the only use case I can really see for 8K is as a PC monitor and as a PC monitor, it is also the case where the upscaling might be the least usefull. At least I would much rather have the option to be able to disable it and get a 4K window at the center of the screen being just that, instead of having it force upscaled to 8K and cover the entire screen. At least for gaming 65" is a no go using it as a PC monitor. And in a typical living room setup, I would probably consider 8K to be meaningless still for anything below 85".

 

[elvn]

Problem is that the only use case I can really see for 8K is as a PC monitor and as a PC monitor, it is also the case where the upscaling might be the least usefull. At least I would much rather have the option to be able to disable it and get a 4K window at the center of the screen being just that, instead of having it force upscaled to 8K and cover the entire screen. At least for gaming 65" is a no go using it as a PC monitor. And in a typical living room setup, I would probably consider 8K to be meaningless still for anything below 85".

Idk. It really depends on the performance vs picture quality, scaling, decoupled from the desk and set back to where you could play 4k material at full screen and still get increased desktop/app real-estate of 8k outside of gaming. . and of course you can still play games in windowed mode at whatever peak hz the 8k native can do (built in borderless or using simple apps to remove the window frame) . . . but I realize thats a very niche command center style setup. That and if you do watch media, 4k and even lower resolutions, and bitrates of streaming content, etc. - from reports of people at ces it supposedly upscales to better than 4k detail.

I'd say 45" away would be good unless there ever was a 1000R curved one which would allow you to reduce that to 40".
So say less than 2' behind a 24" deep desk to get 64 deg viewing angle. A + 21" gap behind the desk. Maybe less depending where your head ends up in relation to the near edge of the desk.

. . .

I agree about living rooms as they are usually only a 30deg - 36 deg viewing angle so the screen is shrunken to your perspective, and so are the pixels. So they are already near "8k PPD" in way as far as the perceived pixel sizes goes.

For example:

. . 65" 4k screen at 98" viewing distance is 32deg viewing angle and ~ 119 PPD

. . 65" 8k screen 45 inch view distance (E.g. decoupled from desk on a slim spine tv stand) 64 degree, filling a few degrees more than your central viewing angle like monitor typical does = 119ppd

 

[improwise]

Idk. It really depends on the performance vs picture quality, scaling, decoupled from the desk and set back to where you could play 4k material at full screen and still get increased desktop/app real-estate of 8k outside of gaming. . and of course you can still play games in windowed mode at whatever peak hz the 8k native can do. . . but I realize thats a very niche command center style setup. That and if you do watch media, 4k and even lower resolutions, and bitrates of streaming content, etc. - from reports of people at ces it supposedly upscales to better than 4k detail.

I agree about living rooms as they are usually only a 30deg - 36 deg viewing angle so the screen is shrunken to your perspective, and so are the pixels. So they are already near 8k PPD in way as far as increased detail goes. For example, a 65" 4k screen at 98" viewing distance is 32deg viewing angle and ~ 119 PPD. A 65" 8k screen 45 inch 64 degree, filling your central viewing angle like monitor typical does = 119ppd

8K can only do 60 hz at which point you could just as well use GPU scaling to achieve what I want (to disable scaling). But only 60 hz for PC gaming is just not acceptable to me these days. What irritates the most is that there must be a really easy way for Samsung offer the option to just bypass upscaling, which would most likely mean faster processing and lower energy consumption as well. But then maybe Samsung could not continue to speak vaguely about their fantastic AI upscaling.

Of course, you could maybe excuse Samsung for not focusing mainly on this as a PC monitor, but as I mentioned before, to me, that is really where I can see the usecase.

 

[elvn]

8K can only do 60 hz at which point you could just as well use GPU scaling to achieve what I want (to disable scaling). But only 60 hz for PC gaming is just not acceptable to me these days. What irritates the most is that there must be a really easy way for Samsung offer the option to just bypass upscaling, which would most likely mean faster processing and lower energy consumption as well. But then maybe Samsung could not continue to speak vaguely about their fantastic AI upscaling.

Of course, you could maybe excuse Samsung for not focusing mainly on this as a PC monitor, but as I mentioned before, to me, that is really where I can see the usecase.

Agree on disabling scaling, also they should have a no DSC Hz mode option on all screens for compatibility and option.

Still very interested in getting some feedback from people putting the screen through its paces to see what it can do.

 

[elvn]

. . . .

. .

In regard to power consumption they did say it's down to 70 to 90w.

. .

The 240Hz thing is either interpolation and/or BFI~flicker

"

Samsung motion Xcelerator
Stream your content with amazingly smooth motion and virtually no lag or blur. Get uninterrupted action with crisp visuals rendered at blazing-fast speeds up to 240 frames per second for any content.⁴
⁴240Hz is limited to 4K resolution and requires compatible content connection from compatible PCs. Motion Xcelerator 240Hz is sometimes called Motion Xcelerator Turbo 8K Pro.

. . .

DisplayNinja: https://www.displayninja.com/what-is-samsung-motion-rate-sony-motionflow-lg-trumotion/


"

If you’ve been looking for a new TV, you’ve probably encountered terms such as Samsung Motion Rate 120, Sony MotionFlow 960, LG TruMotion 240, etc., and wondered what it all means.


In short, these features use either framerate interpolation or black frame insertion to improve motion clarity on your TV."

. . . .

https://www.slashgear.com/1125459/refresh-rate-vs-motion-rate-how-tv-brands-fudge-the-numbers/'

"
MEMC — Short for motion estimation and motion compensation. This is a common motion interpolation technology when it comes to motion smoothing implementations in TVs. MEMC works by estimating motion by looking at the motion vectors and the direction in which objects are moving. As this IEEE paper on MEMC explains, it calculates the motion trajectory and adds a frame before the next frame appears, acting like an artificial bridge between the two frames. Some implementations may also use AI to generate the next frame. This results in a smooth motion, which gives it a high-refresh-rate look, but may bring in additional display artifacts which defeat the purpose.

Black Frame Insertion — This is used to counter motion blur, often in scenarios where motion smoothing is in progress. Black frame insertion works by inserting a black frame between two frames, either by rapidly turning the backlight on and off, or in the case of OLED displays, rapidly turning the screen on and off, as How-To Geek explains. This gives the image a smoother look. BFI is generally used to get a smoother motion output without the typical motion smoothing effect.

. . . . . . . . .

Yeah so you could DLSS upscaling + nvidia frame gen to 4k 120fpsHz, then samsung AI upscaling chip to 8k, and samsung motion interpolation/bfi or whatever it does to do quasi 240 ... /s